Hey Robert, you may have just written the intro to the Orcadian Foxfire equivalent. I knew what a byre was, but peddie I knew not. So before I set off to "swadge" (cool!) for the evening, I just want to say thanks for giving us a peek at a few expressions. It would be nice to have more of this stuff written down, to keep "abune" my current level of ignorance on this linguistic intrigue. This e-mail of yours goes into my Orkney file. Wish there was more of the same. What a great book topic/opportunity for some enthusiastic Orcadian. Thanks.....Stephen On Tuesday, April 20, 2004, at 02:20 PM, robert@scarth.net wrote: > The relationship between language and culture (and environment) is a > fascinating topic, but I think when Judy says " language is the > culture > keeper" she has it only half right. Yes the culture is affected by the > language, (if the language dies then the culture is at least > irreversibly changed). But the language is also a reflection of the > culture, and as the culture changes so does the language - just think > of > the phrase "to make love", and imagine the shock of one of Jane > Austen's heroines on discovering what it now means. > Among the Orcadian words that are still alive for me are (see below > for definitions): > 1) kye, quoy, stot, wither, stray, stook, peddie, abune > 2) to beat fluex, to swadge, to skurt, to hint (tatties or stones), > to dell, delling knife, tusker > The first group are Orcadian words with a direct English equivalent, > but where my first choice would be for the Orcadian word. The second > group are words with no direct English equivalent, and are roughly > ordered according to how familiar a non-Orcadian English speaker would > find the concept. > These words are still alive for me because they express concepts that > exist in my world of experience. However a word like "sholt" (a pony), > which while I know what it means isn't a live word for mean because it > doesn't express something that exists in my world of experience. Of > course there are still ponies, and I know what they look like and > stuff but but I have little need to use the word, and when I say > "pony" I > do not mean the same as when my grandfather said "sholt"; consider and > compare "horsy-folk" and "horseman", they have completely different > meanings, because they exist in a different cultural context. > > This is the problem I have when I try and use dialect words more > (apart from the fact that I live in Zurich and people would look at me > funny if I said "aye-aye beuy, whit like?"): most of the concepts I > want to express are not expressible in Orcadian, and most of what I > can > express in Orcadian is not relevant to my life. What are the Orcadian > words for computer, internet, stock exchange, television, tram, > referendum, or supermarket? How would we discuss Iraq in Orcadian? > there are no words for Shi'i, Sunni, insurgent, terrorist, or > international law. Of course we could invent words for these concepts > but what would the point be? As the world becomes more open, travel > easier, and cultures come together (which I firmly believe is a Good > Thing) the concepts which people need to describe their world converge > and so the language they use becomes more similar, even if the > vocabulary and grammar remain distinct. Of course the convergence will > never > be complete, as people within an area will always have locally > specific concepts they need to communicate to each other; nobody > outside > Marwick will ever need to know what "The Tud" is. > > So yes, while we should record the language of today, and as much of > that of the past as we can, we must remember that to freeze language > means to freeze culture and society and that is a Bad Thing. I'm very > glad indeed that while I can understand that in the past the seasons > were much more important and people grew bere because they had to, I > don't really understand what it was like, and what they really meant > when they spoke about it because I've never inhabited their world and > so their language is foreign to me. > > I don't fully understand what you mean Judy when you say: > "My theory is that it is 'not necessary' to make accessible to the > whole world the specifics of a language, and that by not doing so, one > preserves the culture 'from' the rest of this raging world out here. > This is the Native American position taken by the Ogallala Sioux, > Pawnee, Pima, Hopi, Navaho and some of the eastern tribes as well." > > but I'm very glad that nobody decided to "preserve" Orcadian culture > from the outside world, and so condemned me and other Orcadians to a > life of stunted development and constrained choice. > > > Robert > > > 1) kye = cattle, quoy = heifer (young cow), stot = steer, wither = > castrated male sheep, stray = barley or oat straw, stook = stack of > hay > or straw, or bales of hay or straw, peddie = little, abune = above > 2) to beat fleux = to flap your arms about and sort of hugging > yourself in an effort to keep warm > to swadge = to relax after a meal > to skurt = to throw straw underneath an animal as bedding > to hint = to pick off the ground, and gather together > to dell = to remove the top most section (which does not contain > useable peat) from a peat bank. > delling knife = a large dog-leg shaped knife used for delling. The > blade is about 2-3 feet in length. > tusker = a tool used for cutting peat > > > > On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 11:55:38 -0400, "Judy" wrote: > >> >> Stephan, Kathy, Sigurd et al: >> Good conversation here! Wonderful sounds in the poem >> I quoted below! As a poet I am intrigued by what I am >> imagining are the 'sounds' of the Orkney/Scots (?) language. >> I'm new at this, so please be patient. >> And Kathy as you say, language is the culture keeper. The >> Native American poets I know are very busy trying to decipher, >> write down and keep for the generations yet to come, their >> language groups and their poetry reflects the intensity and >> integrity of their ceremonies and culture. >> So, the lovely little poem written and translated below >> (thanks Sigurd)explains volumes about: importance of seasons, >> importance of food and types of food grown. If one does not >> "fill one's belly when the sun leaves", one has a hard winter >> ahead--beautiful phrase to describe the stark reality. Even >> beginning the poem with "We've had to cultivate turnips..." >> lends the image of doing something for survival that one >> might not want to do, but does anyhow-- >> Back to language and cultures. My theory is that it is 'not >> necessary' to make accessible to the whole world the specifics >> of a language, and that by not doing so, one preserves the culture >> 'from' the rest of this raging world out here. This is the Native >> American position taken by the Ogallala Sioux, Pawnee, Pima, Hopi, >> Navaho and some of the eastern tribes as well. >> Fascinating to learn that the French/Orkney/Native American >> trading in Canada spawned a language/dialect! Guess that would >> have to happen because people would need to talk in order to >> trade effectively. My, aren't we humans wonderfully inventive? >> I am finding The Orkneyinga fascinating and am happy to >> read it in English, however, hearing the ancient words spoken >> would convey another meaning, something hidden in sound that >> I'm sure is missing in the translation, but then translation suffers >> this kind of slippage. >> Hadn't heard that "Orcadians are overly 'inward', but as I >> say, I am new at this. If a culture is 'overly inward', there is >> mostly likely a reason for it. Again, the Native American cultures >> that I am privy to, are also 'overly inward' and for good reason. >> And then there is the problem of the papers you refer to being >> kept in Kirkwall. Of course, information should be available in >> library form for everyone and I do not know about the translation >> of texts issue from the Orcadian viewpoint, but I see from your >> writing, Stephen, that it is an issue. >> As I see it, the stone circles and archaeological sites 'speak' >> without spoken language on one level anyhow very eloquently. >> (And I've only seen pictures--thanks Sigurd.) The conundrum >> seems to be, if a culture invites the rest of the world, how to >> keep nasty guests from the table? >> Judy >> > > > ==== ORCADIA Mailing List ==== > To unsubscribe from the Orcadia mailing list, send an e-mail with the > word > 'unsubscribe' in the message body to orcadia-l-request@rootsweb.com >

On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 19:57:40 -0700, stephen davie wrote: > This e-mail of yours goes into my Orkney file. Wish there was more > of the same. What a great book topic/opportunity for some > enthusiastic Orcadian. Erm. The opportunity has been taken..a number of times. The Orkney Norn - Hugh Marwick (out of print) The Orkney Wordbook - Gregor Lamb (out of print) Hid Kam intae Words - Gregor Lamb (out of print) The Orkney Dictionary - Gregor Lamb and Margaret Flaws (still available at http://www.orcadian.co.uk/orkneybooks) -- Sigurd