Dear George: Well, draw your own conclusions. I just see this as a Canadian teasing an American, after a healthy public debate on the merits of trying to re-establish trees only in areas where they can be proven to have once stood. I lost it with "let the trees fall where they may". Yep, I too took a little offense. Don't like being told I can't understand a simple written message, or sit in ignorance of an obvious landscape architect. I apologize on my part, and without a counterview to points on trees, bees or fleas, we would live in a boring uneventful world. I in truth respect your opinions and thank you for them. I do love trees, however. Planted thousands. So our little debate has ended, and we agree to disagree I suppose, as we Canadians and Americans do on everything from free trade, softwood lumber, a national health system, war in Iraq or Viet Nam, and the merits of the conclusion of the war of 1812, or even holidays in Cuba. Just because our respective national leaders can't be civil to each other, doesn't mean we have to follow suit. The rest of the world can judge who is right and who is wrong. At the end of the day, we're all just people. Thanks for the challenge, and the opportunity to temper my reactionary "Cubby Roo" nature. It has been a positive experience.And George, I have decided to plant a tree this weekend, to commemorate this sparky debate. Peace, George. Drop in if you are ever up this way..........Stephen On Friday, November 21, 2003, at 08:39 PM, George Coghill wrote: > > Dear Steve, > > Thank you for turning what I thought was a difference of opinion into a > personal attack. Being a relatively new user of the internet, this was > my first exposure to what I believe is referred to as "flaming" and I'm > surprised to find out it actually hurt my feelings, so congratulations > on your success. My grandfather was born in Stenness and I have > visited > my many relatives in Orkney, so I'm not sure what you were driving at > but I'm sure it was witty and charming, just over my bumpkin head. > Maybe I should switch to the 18-year old stuff too. The trick is to > put > the bottle away one drink before it turns you cruel. > > Friends? > > George > > > ==== ORCADIA Mailing List ==== > To unsubscribe from the Orcadia mailing list, send an e-mail with the > word > 'unsubscribe' in the message body to orcadia-l-request@rootsweb.com >

With greatest respect for members' personal views on life, the universe and everything, could we please remember to keep posts on topic? I don't mind a flood of emails about Orkney and all things related, but I don't have room in my already crowded Inbox for rants on people's pet political or moral issues. Trees, auroras, history, holidays, great. The evils of alcohol, out of place here. Juliet

Hello, all. I wonder if anyone knows if the Rackwick area of Hoy was "dry" around the early 1900's. Also, did they attend services at the church near the Ward Hill? John Bremner mentions special evangelistic meetings held at the schoolhouse when he was a boy, but I can't find where he mentions the regular Sunday meetings. Was there a minister who lived in a manse there, or were their services less formal? Any clues will be greatly appreciated. Thanks from Rhonda - who is enjoying all the banter, grumpy and otherwise.

With the greatest respect Juliet, I understood this site to be about Orkney and issues that effect daily living, and information about the Islands past, present and future. What makes Orkney a favourite destination for tourist etc, is not just the local history and scenery but the people who are the Orkney community. Drunkenness among Orkney teenagers/adults is a major issue, often highlighted by the local press, TV and radio. Regrettably this is now part of Orkney culture whether we like it or not, to bury our heads in the sand like the ostrich should not be tolerated. It would seem that my remark regarding the new library has also upset a few. I did not condem the nature of the library, the expense is the issue. Today is tomorrows history, in centuries to come there will be an interest in how we lived our lives and what part we played in shaping these Islands. Let us be remembered as a race who cared and loved the Islands, perhaps I may rant, but these are not the rantings of a mad person. My ancestors are one of the oldest families and my passion for the future of the Islands runs deep. Take care Grumpy -------Original Message------- From: ORCADIA-L@rootsweb.com Date: 22 November 2003 00:54:22 To: ORCADIA-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [] Keep to topic please With greatest respect for members' personal views on life, the universe and everything, could we please remember to keep posts on topic? I don't mind a flood of emails about Orkney and all things related, but I don't have room in my already crowded Inbox for rants on people's pet political or moral issues. Trees, auroras, history, holidays, great. The evils of alcohol, out of place here. Juliet To unsubscribe from the Orcadia mailing list, send an e-mail with the word 'unsubscribe' in the message body to orcadia-l-request@rootsweb.com

Weel I chuist don't keyn avaa. A loon complainan aboot wir grand new library noo. Weel aal I can say is this - hids a braa sight aheed oh the auld peedie kirk in Lerwick that is the new library there. Sorry but you have grumpted just too far - the OIC may not do much right but a fine new library for the 21st century is a real statement and a good one. I also agree about the people's palace but that is a different issue which might be addresses to those with brown tongues. -- Charles Tait Photographic Limited, Kelton, St Ola, Orkney, UK KW15 1TR Tel 01856 873738 Fax 01856 875313 Mobile 07785 220269 All outgoing and incoming mail is checked by Norton Antivirus 2003 email charles.tait@zetnet.co.uk website http://www.charles-tait.co.uk

Oh Karen, The Demon Drink has raised it's ugly head, well I suppose as we approach the Season to be Jolly it's inevitable that normally sensible folk will become gibbering idiots. There will be some homes that will become battle grounds over the festive season, innocent children's excitement of Santa will be shattered as parent/parents battle, fuelled by Highland Park or cheap vodka. This will happen in some homes across the World not just Orkney, children are our future, and all children deserve/need as much love as we can give them. Many moons ago some of Orkney's parishes were "Dry", I say bring back the good old days If drink was banned the crime figures would drop dramatically and millions of pounds could be saved, but I don't suppose that's a sensible thing to do, considering that we now live in a world where drinking is a sociable accepted practice. Smoking on the other hand is not now a sociable accepted practice and is now banned in all manner of places, to many to mention. As to your question "Do the long winter nights create a lot of cases of seasonal depression in the islands?", personally winter nights don't depress me, but what does is the greed of mankind. It's a known fact that, that drink heightens depression, oh what a vicious circle the drink creates. Doctors can treat depression, that is if you are lucky enough to manage to get an appointment with one. Still I hear the Orkney Health Board are planning to spend millions on a brand new Health Centre, no doubt no expense will be sparred, that is until they come to appointing enough doctors to treat the Orkney sick. There are a lot of sick Orcadians - sick of being treated as second class citizens. I wonder if it would have been possible to have spent a little less on Orkney's brand new library so as to give the Orkney OAP's the same Xmas Grant as their brethren in Shetland? When I look at the new library it reminds me of the new Scottish Parliament buildings being built in Edinburgh - no expense spared. Take care Grumpy (who does have a happy side - sometimes) -------Original Message------- From: ORCADIA-L@rootsweb.com Date: 21 November 2003 18:52:51 To: ORCADIA-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [] Grumpy Would someone up there in the holy land please give Grumpy a glass of Highland Park? Do the long winter nights create a lot of cases of seasonal depression in the islands? I'm not making light of the condition. It's a very real phenomena. Karen To unsubscribe from the Orcadia mailing list, send an e-mail with the word 'unsubscribe' in the message body to orcadia-l-request@rootsweb.com

As the Orkneyman said of a view encumbered by trees - I canna see the view for all the trees! Trees are fine, but in their place. Orkney never has been wooded in the proper sense since the Ice Age and while it is grand to plant a few trees any idea that ot would in any sense be a "good" idea in some way to "go back to woodland" makks aboot as much sense as planting aerogenerators aall ower the place, or as the Rousay man said "Hids chuist a lot o s****". Anyway there is no doubt that trees can grow, bit such plantings as Binscarth, Balfour Castle, Berstane, etc also show that there is a lot of dying off too, and that such plantations always need attention - in other words they are really gardens. -- Charles Tait Photographic Limited, Kelton, St Ola, Orkney, UK KW15 1TR Tel 01856 873738 Fax 01856 875313 Mobile 07785 220269 All outgoing and incoming mail is checked by Norton Antivirus 2003 email charles.tait@zetnet.co.uk website http://www.charles-tait.co.uk

Stephen - Somewhere & sometime we must meet - I'd sure like to know someone rich enough to partake of the 18 year old stuff and become as delightful as you appear to be - how about at an Orkney wedding - it would be a grand time to meet and discuss our apparent love affair with our ancesteral islands, the islands left over from the creation of Heaven... Sigurd, again, thanks for the site and I apologize for not insisting that we go for a pint in 1999 when we met in Kirkwall on the 3rd or 4th floor of the Orcadian - I'll always regret that opportunity.... Jim D Denver, CO

Charles - Right on, as usual------- Jim D. denver, CO

GGGGGGosh! I recently switched from 12 year old to the eighteen year old stuff to make me more mature. Now I'm 33.3% wiser, and more mellow. Now there then wee Georgie, it may seem unthinkable from your windswept vantage point, but yep, last two examples of natives sharing I know of are a new diamond mine in the NWT where they (Inuit) are cut in for something in the order of 35% (don't hold me to that figure). And near here, a new Casino, Casino Rama, nets our pal the Chief Sharon Henry (delightful gal) in excess of a million dollars every single day of the year for her little band! Check out the websites, Ekati Diamonds and Casino Rama. Natives also own a whacking big chunk of a little project (new) called Voisey Bay in Labrador, and in recent years have accumulated deeded ownership to millions of acres all across our little country. Voisey, by the way, is the largest nickel deposit in the world, in large part native. So "please" it was, right you are, my friend, and thankyou it was from our native brothers who hit the jackpot on these and other projects, and continue so to do. But hey, Shucks n' gollee Georgie, I gotta fess up. I ain't bin reel honest, and I'm feelin a tad poorly. Fer me and my cousins Gomer and Festus are fixin' ta come over tuh see y'all and figured on buyin us an island n raisin blue tics. And geepers, Georgie, Gomer figirs ifn ther h'aint no trees there'd be nothin to shoot septin gophers n' such, cause critters needs trees fer ta live, ceptin fish n' the like. Youze guys got any ducks? Whacha got fer ta shoot, Georgie? Oh yeh, are youze kin to the Coghills in Smoky Holler? Don't sound too Orkney, do it? Sure youze are frum where youze r at? Cheer up pal. Hug someone you love and have a nice weekend. Maybe cut down a Xmas tree, or chase a tumbleweed in the wind! don't take life to seriously or you'll end up like Bin Laden. All in fun and love..........Stephen .On Friday, November 21, 2003, at 03:53 PM, George Coghill wrote: > > --WebTV-Mail-4957-456 > Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit > > > Gentle Reader, > > Perhaps I should give in and adopt the e-message vernacular, peppering > my notes with those little sideways happy faces to avoid offending the > occasional reader who doesn't get irony, but as I mentioned to the love > of my life (whom I met through this list, which I will always be > grateful for), life just isn't worth living if you have to explain your > jokes. What I thought I was driving at was that the wind, the cold, > the > salt spray, the general change in the climate of northern Europe over > the past few thousand years, have gotten together and produced a rich, > unique and stunningly beautiful ecosystem in the Orkney Islands, one > that should be toyed with neither by developers nor by well-meaning > people who think every square foot of the Earth should be occupied by > trees. And as far as the birds, bugs and other "critters," they also > do > quite well in the heather and grasses that so beautifully cover the > land. I am aware that "landscape too is architecture," and I gave you > a > clue to that by mentioning the name of the most famous Landscape > Architect of all time in last night's letter, but do you really believe > that even the designer of the grounds of Blenheim Palace could improve > on the stark magnificence of Orkney as bequeathed us by nature's great > architect? > > Lastly, as a fellow North American, one line in your letter caught my > eye: > >> (Over here, nowdays, huge percentages >> of resources go directly to the natives.) > > Please! > > Good bye, all, and have a pleasant weekend (especially Grumpy). Please > think twice before trying to change a place of rare and subtle beauty > into an artist's conception of what that place may have looked like a > few ages ago. > > George Coghill, > of Orcadian descent, living in Olympia, Washington, USA > > > --WebTV-Mail-4957-456 > Content-Disposition: Inline > Content-Type: Message/RFC822 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit > > Received: from smtpin-3202.bay.webtv.net (209.240.204.227) by > storefull-2177.public.lawson.webtv.net with WTV-SMTP; Fri, 21 Nov > 2003 07:35:10 -0800 (PST) > Received: from lists2.rootsweb.com (lists2.rootsweb.com > [207.40.200.39]) by > smtpin-3202.bay.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix+sws) with ESMTP id > 05BA7FEC3 for <gcog@webtv.net>; Fri, 21 Nov 2003 07:34:50 -0800 (PST) > Received: (from slist@localhost) by lists2.rootsweb.com > (8.12.8/8.12.8) id > hALFQahm029325; Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:26:36 -0700 > Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:26:36 -0700 > X-Original-Sender: stephen.davie@sympatico.ca Fri Nov 21 08:26:35 2003 > Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 10:28:41 -0500 > Subject: Re: [<orcadia>] The Forests of Orkney > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) > From: Steve Davie <stephen.davie@sympatico.ca> > Old-To: ORCADIA-L@rootsweb.com > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > In-Reply-To: <5872-3FBDF9A6-46@storefull-2178.public.lawson.webtv.net> > Message-Id: <62E387D6-1C37-11D8-8F8F-0003939E1D4C@sympatico.ca> > X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) > Resent-Message-ID: <T9DF3C.A.nJH.s6iv_@lists2.rootsweb.com> > To: ORCADIA-L@rootsweb.com > Resent-From: ORCADIA-L@rootsweb.com > Reply-To: ORCADIA-L@rootsweb.com > X-Mailing-List: <ORCADIA-L@rootsweb.com> archive/latest/2480 > X-Loop: ORCADIA-L@rootsweb.com > Precedence: list > Resent-Sender: ORCADIA-L-request@rootsweb.com > X-Brightmail: Message tested, results are inconclusive > > My my my, what have we here? > > With the greatest of respect, are you suggesting, historic evidence > aside, that the creator of this planet didn't ever impose trees some > places on Orkney? Trees aren't a "new age" imposing concept, save and > except for the toxic artificial ones made with oil from the sea off > Orkney and elsewhere. They aren't a threatening foreign concept. > > I too am not a fan of hairclipped hedgrows that by design highlight > extravagant entrances to modern-day castles flaunting unconscionable > consumerism. However, on behalf of grouse, hares, songbirds, various > bugs and other critters, those historic Orkney residents now reduced in > numbers, it is fair for anyone on planet earth to look at this unique > ecosystem and compare the current form against what was years ago. Not > an unhealthy exercise. Look at how you oogle over the 3000 year old > architecture. Well, landscape too is architecture and worth examining. > Over here in gadget-guzzling America we haven't done that sort of > evaluating enough, obviously. > > You know, your Orkney yesteryear theme is a great idea for Disneyland! > Kind of an elaboration of their "Pirates of the Caribbean." I envision > a brightly decorated honey coloured wooden vessel on an invisible > track, traveling at 9.3 kph for 19 minutes on a circuitous route > through stone crofts and bleating sheep, attacked occasionally by > sword-wielding bearded Vikings, with screaming women with kicking feet, > flopped over their broad shoulders, their blood curdling cries > amplified in perfect digital stereo over speakers hidden from view by, > oops, trees. And judging by the pumping of "Orkney, the Tourist > Destination", if you aren't careful, you are small enough that you > could become a theme park! Seems like it is close enough to the UK > mainland that it becomes a smog-free affordable summertime retreat for > city-weary Londoners who's overtaxed incomes don't stretch to the Yukon > or south Africa. Think that's not a serious threat? Go to any of the > islands in the world from Malaysia through the South Pacific and the > islands England exploited such as Tortola the British Virgins, > Jamaica,Turks and Cacos, Barbados and countless others. Islands are > fragile, often complex but restricted (waste disposal, drinking water, > fuel,vegetation) and individually unique. Single malt instead of rum. > Oil instead of gold. That's why examining what was and comparing it to > what is becomes valid and natural. The more natural islands are, the > more unique in this exploited shrinking world. In this regard, Orkney > has benefited from a situation where the current population is less > than it was in 1750. Less people--less pressure. Magnificent. Unique. > Breathtaking. A population in reverse. > > Time may well be nigh to prepare for post-oil Orkney. Don't see much > in the way of significant cultural contributions to Orkney from those > international corporate giants who vacuum the black gold from beneath > your fish. (Over here, nowdays, huge percentages of resources go > directly to the natives.) Course, the demands for deductible > gratuitous expenditures have more political propellent on the U.K. > mainland. That's where the numbers are, and the political benefits. So > why contribute to Orkney in any long-term meaningful way if you aren't > even asked? It would be of no benefit to mainland political forces and > needed federal approvals, approvals to dig deeper and longer for more > oil at more risk. Better the oil giant should build, with Orkney oil > money, a football stadium in Manchester. I mean, did you ever ask > yourself how politically impotent your elected representation of > twenty five thousand shrinking fragmented islanders, unconnected by > roads, must be in London or Edinburgh? Sortof like a British > Newfoundland. They have oil beneath codfish as well. And their local > input matters not one iota. But they get even provincial with tax laws, > laid out before sea oil was discovered. They are on the edge of change > that may not be good. > > Thing to do is slip around the Globe a few times and have a current-day > peek. What they don't want you to see is seldom on the internet. Gota > buy the ticket. Lots of chainsaws out there(Brasil, Peru, Canada). > Lotsa future demand for oil (China). Lotsa traffic to Disneyworld! > > So what caught my attention? You say let the trees fall where they may? > I say, let the trees grow where they once fell--even in Orkney! Hats > off to the chap who responded that he is planting 25 hectares this > spring in Orkney. That is a positive, admirable and unselfish move, and > thank goodness likely representative of great, responsible Orkney > stewardship. Stewardship essential for survival as a cultural pearl in > an unspoiled natural setting. And he is paying the lot out of his own > pocket. Bravo! > > Gee, it's friday:..........Have a nice weekend folks..........Stephen > > > On Friday, November 21, 2003, at 06:40 AM, George Coghill wrote: > >> >> My Dear Friends, >> >> Is there a movement afoot, led by some modern incarnation of >> Capability >> Brown, to turn Orkney into a well-manicured new age conception of the >> forest primeval, a manor park rather than one of the most naturally >> beautiful landscapes on the planet? Sigurd, don't let them take my >> rugged rocky silhouettes softened and given a barely tangible subtlety >> by the heather and other shrubbage (not a word, I know, but I like >> it). >> The odd tree or grove, tough survivors as were our Norse ancestors, >> are >> admirable and beautiful, but the thought of disfiguring the openness >> of >> the land with hedgerows and other major plantings makes me a touch >> queasy. I smell a conspiracy, and I think Disney must be behind it, >> turning Orkney into an American style theme park. Or perhaps a German >> Uber-Konglomerate, to turn ancient Orca into Deutschneyland! >> >> Let the trees fall where they may. >> >> Your overseas cousin, >> George Coghill >> >> >> ==== ORCADIA Mailing List ==== >> To unsubscribe from the Orcadia mailing list, send an e-mail with the >> word >> 'unsubscribe' in the message body to orcadia-l-request@rootsweb.com >> > > > ==== ORCADIA Mailing List ==== > To unsubscribe from the Orcadia mailing list, send an e-mail with the > word > 'unsubscribe' in the message body to orcadia-l-request@rootsweb.com > > > --WebTV-Mail-4957-456-- > > > ==== ORCADIA Mailing List ==== > To unsubscribe from the Orcadia mailing list, send an e-mail with the > word > 'unsubscribe' in the message body to orcadia-l-request@rootsweb.com >

Good evening Pat, Who am I ?, a very good question and one that I often ask myself. I used to be the X that appeared on the Ballot Paper when voting in what I hoped would be a councilor that would inject some common sense at Council Meetings when it came to making major decisions that would directly effect the good people of Orkney. Alas over the years I soon discovered that being an X was a futile existence, so I gave up that identity. I then thought about becoming a farmer and living off the fat of the land, and should times ever get hard, I could run to the council and shout "I am a poor farmer", the council would then find limitless funds to help me out. Unfortunately when I approached the HIE to start me off, there was no funds available, seems as if all the spare cash had been spent to fund long established jewellery firms trips abroad, and £25,000 for marketing, not forgetting the thousands handed out to Salmon Firms. It would appear that the excellent "Dounby Stores" were also given the cold shoulder by the HIE, but every cloud has a silver lining and "Dounby Stores" have more than proved their worth by becoming "Retailer of the Year", thus keeping a vital rural shop in existence. For the time being I am now the voice of the forgotten masses, unfortunately a voice that is lost in the wind, due no doubt to the lack of trees that are very beneficial in reducing wind speed! I wish there could be light at the end of the tunnel, but having just returned from Victoria Street clothed in darkness it would appear that someone has forgotten to switch on the coloured bulbs hanging from the wires Bah humbug. Take care Grumpy -------Original Message------- From: ORCADIA-L@rootsweb.com Date: 21 November 2003 17:26:39 To: ORCADIA-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [] seasons greetings! Dear Grumpy, What a very nice note you sent...... Your note describes you to a tee. <grin> Who are you? <g> Pat ----- Original Message ----- From: "Grumpy" <grumpy_in_orkney@btinternet.com> To: <ORCADIA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2003 8:02 PM Subject: [<orcadia>] seasons greetings! > Bah humbug, the festive season looms once more, another year of coloured > lights bulbs hung on wires from the Head of the Pier to the end of Victoria > Street. I keep hoping that one year the OIC will use a bit more imagination > when it comes decorating the town. Perhaps a visit to Finstown would give > the council a bit of an idea what can be archived. I remember many moons ago > visiting Glasgow as a child and being mesmerised by the dazzling display of > Xmas lights. Admittedly Kirkwall is no Glasgow but for a few thousand pounds > investment a better display could be made. Still I suppose I should not > grumble to much and be thankful for the multi million pound new pier out at > Hatston!!!!! > > Down south many towns decorate the trees with lights, but then again we are > led to believe that trees can't grow in Orkney, perhaps the main reason for > trees not growing is that they need someone to plant them in the first > place! It's said that conifers don't grow because our winters are to wet, so > I suppose the conifers that are growing down the Redland Road in Finstown > and at other localities around Orkney must be a mirage. The climate and > conditions in Orkney are said to be similar to that of the South Island of > New Zealand, in fact some of Orkney's widely planted shrubs are New Zealand > natives and thrive very well. > > Farmers south divide many of their field with mixed native trees/shrubs, not > only does this provide shelter for crops and farm animals it's a haven for > wildlife. If Orkney farmers were to use a small percentage of the thousands > of pound handouts from the goverment and spend it on planting mixed hedging > then the Orkney landscape could be made to look more attractive not to > mention the effect it would have on reducing the wind speed. > > Take care. > > Grumpy > > > > To unsubscribe from the Orcadia mailing list, send an e-mail with the word > 'unsubscribe' in the message body to orcadia-l-request@rootsweb.com > > > To unsubscribe from the Orcadia mailing list, send an e-mail with the word 'unsubscribe' in the message body to orcadia-l-request@rootsweb.com

My concern about adding trees in any significant numbers to somewhere like Orkney is the impact on the fragile, unique and treeless ecologies evolved over thousands of years. Don't get me wrong - I earn my living pampering trees and shrubs - trees are wonderful, but their place isn't everywhere. Grasslands are equally valuable, especially if you happen to be a bird which relies on insects which rely on the seedheads of a particular species of grass to nourish their grubs. An ecology isn't a matter of bung in a few plants or trees, bingo! instant ecology. You start with the soil bacteria, the bugs and wee beasties in the soil, work up to vertebrates and plants and try and get the correct balance of everything. This takes a site more than fifty years to accomplish. You can plant a plantation, but you cannot create a genuine natural woodland. You can sow a wild flower meadow, but it never looks like a real one. These thing take time and a considerable amount of work over many years. And in many cases the correct breed of cow or sheep grazing at the correct stocking rate at the correct time of year. Aileen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Simon" <tiny.treasure@btinternet.com> To: <ORCADIA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2003 5:43 PM Subject: Re: [<orcadia>] Re:Fiona Northern Lights at last > In current Orcadian terms they are significant. > > We don't have acres of natural woodland for the same reason most of the > highlands are denuded of trees, and many other parts of Europe. SHEEP. 5000 > years of grazing will knock back the trees a bit. > > We do have 25 hectares of native trees planted in the last few years by > private citizens. I am planting 1500 in the spring on a further 3 hectares. > If you plant one tree in your garden it will most likely die. If you plant > 100 80 will live, and 20 will grow very well. If you plant 1000 the survival > rates increase and so will the size of the most favoured. (The Balfour > effect). If all the farmers planted trees rather than grass Orkney would > become substantially fully forested in less than 50 years. > > Species wise, the reason many trees which thrive in far worse coastal > region - Canada, Alaska, etcetera, is because of our lack of cold weather. > Firs/Evergreens need prolonged frost/sub zero temperatures and effectively > dry conditions to hibernate through the winter. Our winters are wet and mild > and therefore these species never turn off, and fail to thrive as a result. > > I am surprised Sigurd that you don't know this. Jenny Taylor can supply you > with the facts, as per the URL I supplied. There was also a full day given > over to trees in Orkney at the Science festival in September, which was very > enlightening. >

Dear Steve, Thank you for turning what I thought was a difference of opinion into a personal attack. Being a relatively new user of the internet, this was my first exposure to what I believe is referred to as "flaming" and I'm surprised to find out it actually hurt my feelings, so congratulations on your success. My grandfather was born in Stenness and I have visited my many relatives in Orkney, so I'm not sure what you were driving at but I'm sure it was witty and charming, just over my bumpkin head. Maybe I should switch to the 18-year old stuff too. The trick is to put the bottle away one drink before it turns you cruel. Friends? George

Thank you for the good comments George. I too hope everyone has a good weekend. I hope the Merry Dancers bring light and life to the darkness. I hope the primordial strength and beauty of Orkney's rocks and water coast won't be overrun by trees, or amusement parks. (We didn't get around to discussing whether to make the whole place a living history museum, or to build bridges between all of the islands and to the mainland. I'm sure we can stir up something with that another day.) I hope those who would like a tree or two in their little corner will grow and nurture them and enjoy the results, or at least the hope that future generations will. I'm going to go contemplate cooking a Thanksgiving turkey, and be thankful I've seen Orkney, and hope I will again someday. Karen Karen

Would someone up there in the holy land please give Grumpy a glass of Highland Park? Do the long winter nights create a lot of cases of seasonal depression in the islands? I'm not making light of the condition. It's a very real phenomena. Karen

so are Orkney children. I urge all of you that enjoy the Radio Orkney broadcasts to help them out with the hard work they do for the Children in Need drive. You can pledge or bid on line, and see some photos from the station at <A HREF="http://www.orkney.org/chin/">BBC Radio Orkney - Children In Need 2003 </A> or copy and paste: http://www.orkney.org/chin/ Karen

>>> I smell a conspiracy, and I think Disney must be behind it, turning Orkney into an American style theme park. Or perhaps a German Uber-Konglomerate, to turn ancient Orca into Deutschneyland! ... right, George! ... with an illuminated sunken fleet amongst illuminated tangle woods! :-) Wolfgang http://northernisles.schottlandportal.de/

--WebTV-Mail-4957-456 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Gentle Reader, Perhaps I should give in and adopt the e-message vernacular, peppering my notes with those little sideways happy faces to avoid offending the occasional reader who doesn't get irony, but as I mentioned to the love of my life (whom I met through this list, which I will always be grateful for), life just isn't worth living if you have to explain your jokes. What I thought I was driving at was that the wind, the cold, the salt spray, the general change in the climate of northern Europe over the past few thousand years, have gotten together and produced a rich, unique and stunningly beautiful ecosystem in the Orkney Islands, one that should be toyed with neither by developers nor by well-meaning people who think every square foot of the Earth should be occupied by trees. And as far as the birds, bugs and other "critters," they also do quite well in the heather and grasses that so beautifully cover the land. I am aware that "landscape too is architecture," and I gave you a clue to that by mentioning the name of the most famous Landscape Architect of all time in last night's letter, but do you really believe that even the designer of the grounds of Blenheim Palace could improve on the stark magnificence of Orkney as bequeathed us by nature's great architect? Lastly, as a fellow North American, one line in your letter caught my eye: >(Over here, nowdays, huge percentages >of resources go directly to the natives.) Please! Good bye, all, and have a pleasant weekend (especially Grumpy). Please think twice before trying to change a place of rare and subtle beauty into an artist's conception of what that place may have looked like a few ages ago. George Coghill, of Orcadian descent, living in Olympia, Washington, USA --WebTV-Mail-4957-456 Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Message/RFC822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Received: from smtpin-3202.bay.webtv.net (209.240.204.227) by storefull-2177.public.lawson.webtv.net with WTV-SMTP; Fri, 21 Nov 2003 07:35:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from lists2.rootsweb.com (lists2.rootsweb.com [207.40.200.39]) by smtpin-3202.bay.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix+sws) with ESMTP id 05BA7FEC3 for <gcog@webtv.net>; Fri, 21 Nov 2003 07:34:50 -0800 (PST) Received: (from slist@localhost) by lists2.rootsweb.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) id hALFQahm029325; Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:26:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:26:36 -0700 X-Original-Sender: stephen.davie@sympatico.ca Fri Nov 21 08:26:35 2003 Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 10:28:41 -0500 Subject: Re: [<orcadia>] The Forests of Orkney Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) From: Steve Davie <stephen.davie@sympatico.ca> Old-To: ORCADIA-L@rootsweb.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <5872-3FBDF9A6-46@storefull-2178.public.lawson.webtv.net> Message-Id: <62E387D6-1C37-11D8-8F8F-0003939E1D4C@sympatico.ca> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) Resent-Message-ID: <T9DF3C.A.nJH.s6iv_@lists2.rootsweb.com> To: ORCADIA-L@rootsweb.com Resent-From: ORCADIA-L@rootsweb.com Reply-To: ORCADIA-L@rootsweb.com X-Mailing-List: <ORCADIA-L@rootsweb.com> archive/latest/2480 X-Loop: ORCADIA-L@rootsweb.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: ORCADIA-L-request@rootsweb.com X-Brightmail: Message tested, results are inconclusive My my my, what have we here? With the greatest of respect, are you suggesting, historic evidence aside, that the creator of this planet didn't ever impose trees some places on Orkney? Trees aren't a "new age" imposing concept, save and except for the toxic artificial ones made with oil from the sea off Orkney and elsewhere. They aren't a threatening foreign concept. I too am not a fan of hairclipped hedgrows that by design highlight extravagant entrances to modern-day castles flaunting unconscionable consumerism. However, on behalf of grouse, hares, songbirds, various bugs and other critters, those historic Orkney residents now reduced in numbers, it is fair for anyone on planet earth to look at this unique ecosystem and compare the current form against what was years ago. Not an unhealthy exercise. Look at how you oogle over the 3000 year old architecture. Well, landscape too is architecture and worth examining. Over here in gadget-guzzling America we haven't done that sort of evaluating enough, obviously. You know, your Orkney yesteryear theme is a great idea for Disneyland! Kind of an elaboration of their "Pirates of the Caribbean." I envision a brightly decorated honey coloured wooden vessel on an invisible track, traveling at 9.3 kph for 19 minutes on a circuitous route through stone crofts and bleating sheep, attacked occasionally by sword-wielding bearded Vikings, with screaming women with kicking feet, flopped over their broad shoulders, their blood curdling cries amplified in perfect digital stereo over speakers hidden from view by, oops, trees. And judging by the pumping of "Orkney, the Tourist Destination", if you aren't careful, you are small enough that you could become a theme park! Seems like it is close enough to the UK mainland that it becomes a smog-free affordable summertime retreat for city-weary Londoners who's overtaxed incomes don't stretch to the Yukon or south Africa. Think that's not a serious threat? Go to any of the islands in the world from Malaysia through the South Pacific and the islands England exploited such as Tortola the British Virgins, Jamaica,Turks and Cacos, Barbados and countless others. Islands are fragile, often complex but restricted (waste disposal, drinking water, fuel,vegetation) and individually unique. Single malt instead of rum. Oil instead of gold. That's why examining what was and comparing it to what is becomes valid and natural. The more natural islands are, the more unique in this exploited shrinking world. In this regard, Orkney has benefited from a situation where the current population is less than it was in 1750. Less people--less pressure. Magnificent. Unique. Breathtaking. A population in reverse. Time may well be nigh to prepare for post-oil Orkney. Don't see much in the way of significant cultural contributions to Orkney from those international corporate giants who vacuum the black gold from beneath your fish. (Over here, nowdays, huge percentages of resources go directly to the natives.) Course, the demands for deductible gratuitous expenditures have more political propellent on the U.K. mainland. That's where the numbers are, and the political benefits. So why contribute to Orkney in any long-term meaningful way if you aren't even asked? It would be of no benefit to mainland political forces and needed federal approvals, approvals to dig deeper and longer for more oil at more risk. Better the oil giant should build, with Orkney oil money, a football stadium in Manchester. I mean, did you ever ask yourself how politically impotent your elected representation of twenty five thousand shrinking fragmented islanders, unconnected by roads, must be in London or Edinburgh? Sortof like a British Newfoundland. They have oil beneath codfish as well. And their local input matters not one iota. But they get even provincial with tax laws, laid out before sea oil was discovered. They are on the edge of change that may not be good. Thing to do is slip around the Globe a few times and have a current-day peek. What they don't want you to see is seldom on the internet. Gota buy the ticket. Lots of chainsaws out there(Brasil, Peru, Canada). Lotsa future demand for oil (China). Lotsa traffic to Disneyworld! So what caught my attention? You say let the trees fall where they may? I say, let the trees grow where they once fell--even in Orkney! Hats off to the chap who responded that he is planting 25 hectares this spring in Orkney. That is a positive, admirable and unselfish move, and thank goodness likely representative of great, responsible Orkney stewardship. Stewardship essential for survival as a cultural pearl in an unspoiled natural setting. And he is paying the lot out of his own pocket. Bravo! Gee, it's friday:..........Have a nice weekend folks..........Stephen On Friday, November 21, 2003, at 06:40 AM, George Coghill wrote: > > My Dear Friends, > > Is there a movement afoot, led by some modern incarnation of Capability > Brown, to turn Orkney into a well-manicured new age conception of the > forest primeval, a manor park rather than one of the most naturally > beautiful landscapes on the planet? Sigurd, don't let them take my > rugged rocky silhouettes softened and given a barely tangible subtlety > by the heather and other shrubbage (not a word, I know, but I like it). > The odd tree or grove, tough survivors as were our Norse ancestors, are > admirable and beautiful, but the thought of disfiguring the openness of > the land with hedgerows and other major plantings makes me a touch > queasy. I smell a conspiracy, and I think Disney must be behind it, > turning Orkney into an American style theme park. Or perhaps a German > Uber-Konglomerate, to turn ancient Orca into Deutschneyland! > > Let the trees fall where they may. > > Your overseas cousin, > George Coghill > > > ==== ORCADIA Mailing List ==== > To unsubscribe from the Orcadia mailing list, send an e-mail with the > word > 'unsubscribe' in the message body to orcadia-l-request@rootsweb.com > ==== ORCADIA Mailing List ==== To unsubscribe from the Orcadia mailing list, send an e-mail with the word 'unsubscribe' in the message body to orcadia-l-request@rootsweb.com --WebTV-Mail-4957-456--

>>>If Orkney farmers were to use a small percentage of the thousands of pound handouts from the goverment and spend it on planting mixed hedging then the Orkney landscape could be made to look more attractive ... OK, I agree ... but, please, add some handmade candle lights at Xmas time ... just to become unique again! :-) Wolfgang (from Hamburg ... an a bit confused: Spottet colored eggs in a shop, yesterday!)

Shameless plug- aurora picture from last night now on www.orkneycommunities.co.uk. You should bookmark it alongside The Orcadian and Orkneyjar! Cheers, Steven