How does Election Day work in Orkney? WHo gets out the vote? What is the local political structure and heirarchy? Are government workers allowed to help 'encourage' people to vote? And is there a, er, ahem, a column on the card that they would want to encourage? Who registers people to vote there? What is the lag time between residency requirements and registration? Here, in Chicago, things are run quite well. In the last national election (2000), our precinct (29th) in our ward (33rd) in our city (Chicago{named after an onion}) of our county(Cook{named after a Scot}) and state (Illinois{named after an AmerInd tribe}) brought in 104% of the eligible voters. The majority of the voters chose Vice President Gore to be the next president. Needless to say, that figure - 104% - was one of the highest for a precinct in the nation. It was done with dedication, organization and coordination over the twelve hour period when the polls were open. Now, how are the elections runs in Orkney? What is the dedicated politcal make up? Are the sailors for the Royal Navy allowed to vote? If so, can they cast a ballot in Orkney? There has been a lot of talk about the past, archaeology, ancestors, 'merry dancers' and such on the website. This is fine Now, let's write about the political structure as it exists today. Curious in Chicago

>>>Oh and Orkney was NOT given in a dowry - it and Shetland was mortgaged (impinorated sounds much ruder!) to Scotland in 1468 and 1469. Although Scotland annexed the islands, there has never been a constitutional settlement, which means that legally we are in some state of limbo and have been for a while. Sorry Charles: Even that's not "quite" correct: The Danish King Christian gave "all and sundris our lands with [all and sundris] our rights" ... He gave what he could give - the crown property and the rights (tax etc.) going along with them. Even at that time NO Scandinavian King had any power neither over the private estates of an earl/yarl ("Earls' land") nor over "Udalers' land" (property of a freeborn and independent individual). He only could give away what belonged to him or properties of a similar status like the estates in Shetland which were part (at that time) of the appanage of the Norwegian Crown Prince sometimes (since 1260 or so) called "hertug" of Norway ... So he - roughly calculated - gave away some 30 to 40% of both Orkney and Shetland - I think that was enough for one girl ... :-)) [note: The Scottish document got lost over the years (funny isn't it ???) but the Danish copy survived and is still in the Rijksarkivet in Kopenhavn - do you want to have a copy of a good b/w print???] Wolfgang

I have sat in silence for a long time enjoying the emails from the orcadia group but cannot hold my tongue any longer. The rambling going on at the moment is wonderful best its been. People standing up for what they believe on topic off topic who cares. Most of it is about Orkney directly and indirectly. And as for Orkney been given in dowry, I have always believed that it was the marriage dowry of Margaret, king Christians 1 of Denmark daughter. Was my history teacher at school wrong has the stories in the family been wrong for years.????????????????????? Ola

we have today installed equipment at Maeshowe to broadcast over the Internet until the end of January. Everything is working OK but for one camera but hopefully it will be working soon. Perhaps some furry "friends" have chewed the cable.... Site is at http://www.maeshowe.co.uk Last Sunday was exceptionally beautiful, with a clear, frosty dawn. The lighting over the lochs and stones was simply wonderful. There will be a selection of pix online from this and other nice November lighting shortly. Digital is fine but one does tend to shoot more and it all takes time to process in Photoshop. On the subject of Orkney, my brother and father have just come back from a trip to Ecuador where they visited a monument said to be at the "Centre of the World". Peter's response was that he always thought Orkney was. That encapsulates the Orcadian view of the world and explains why we don't need an emblem, flag, or other symbol of what we are, because we are just "us". Oh and Orkney was NOT given in a dowry - it and Shetland was mortgaged (impinorated sounds much ruder!) to Scotland in 1468 and 1469. Although Scotland annexed the islands, there has never been a constitutional settlement, which means that legally we are in some state of limbo and have been for a while. Across the Pentland Firth on Sunday Scotland was visible from Duncansby Head to Cape Wrath - Scotland please note, as being part of the island sooth o'wir wans. -- Charles Tait Photographic Limited, Kelton, St Ola, Orkney, UK KW15 1TR Tel 01856 873738 Fax 01856 875313 Mobile 07785 220269 All outgoing and incoming mail is checked by Norton Antivirus 2003 email charles.tait@zetnet.co.uk website http://www.charles-tait.co.uk

I agree with Ola, IM Ladywillow wrote: >I have sat in silence for a long time enjoying the emails from the orcadia group >but cannot hold my tongue any longer. >The rambling going on at the moment is wonderful best its been. >People standing up for what they believe on topic off topic who cares. >Most of it is about Orkney directly and indirectly. >And as for Orkney been given in dowry, I have always believed that it was the marriage dowry of Margaret, king Christians 1 of Denmark daughter. Was my history teacher at school wrong has the stories in the family been wrong for years.????????????????????? > >Ola > > >==== ORCADIA Mailing List ==== >To unsubscribe from the Orcadia mailing list, send an e-mail with the word >'unsubscribe' in the message body to orcadia-l-request@rootsweb.com > > > >

Could we keep the postings on topic please. -- Sigurd Towrie Blackhall - Kirbister - Stromness - Orkney Heritage of Orkney: www.orkneyjar.com

Happy Thanksgiving Anne, I am none of the names you mention, but bear in mind the old Scottish saying "We are all Jock Tamson's Bairns", we are all part of the big human family who should work together for peace and the benefit of those less fortunate than ourselves. I did a quick search on the story of "Thanksgiving" and I have pasted below an extract from a web site. I especially like the part where early settlers and native indians feasted together in peace and harmony - where and when did it go all wrong? Sadly part of the human nature is given over to greed, none of us are exempt from this part of our nature, perhaps it's a case of us just trying to control this side of our nature more. Take care Grumpy The Thanksgiving holiday celebrated each November in the United States is known worldwide as an American custom, but its roots extend far back into human history. According to research conducted by The Center for World Thanksgiving at Thanks-Giving Square, the first Americans observed rituals and ceremonies to express gratitude to a higher power for life itself. A Seneca Indian ritual, for example, states, "Our Creator ... Shall continue to dwell above the sky, and this is where those on the earth will end their thanksgiving." Another quotation attributed to American Indians before Columbus is, "The plant has its nourishment from the earth and its limbs go up this way, in praise of its Maker ... like the limbs of a tree." The Pilgrims' First Harvest Feast According to historical sources, the Pilgrims never held an autumnal Thanksgiving feast. The Pilgrims did have a feast in 1621 near Plymouth, Massachusetts, after their first harvest. This is the feast people often refer to as "The First Thanksgiving." This feast was never repeated, so it can't be called the start of a tradition, nor did the colonists or Pilgrims call it a Thanksgiving Feast. In fact, to these devoutly religious people, a day of thanksgiving was a day of prayer and fasting. Nevertheless, the 1621 feast has become a model for the Thanksgiving celebration in the United States. More than likely, this first harvest feast was eaten outside, based on the fact that the colonists didn't have a building large enough to accommodate all the people who came. Native Americans definitely were among the invited guests, and it's possible, even probable, that turkey (roasted but not stuffed) and pumpkin in some form found their way to the table. The feast is described in a firsthand account presumably written by a leader of the colony, Edward Winslow, as it appears in Mourt's Relation: "Our harvest being gotten in, our governor sent four men on fowling, that so we might after a special manner rejoice together after we had gathered the fruit of our labors. They four in one day killed as much fowl as, with a little help beside, served the company almost a week. At which time, amongst other recreations, we exercised our arms, many of the Indians coming amongst us, and among the rest their greatest King Massasoit, with some ninety men, whom for three days we entertained and feasted, and they went out and killed five deer, which they brought to the plantation and bestowed on our governor and upon the captain and others. And although it be not always so plentiful as it was this time with us, yet by the goodness of God, we are so far from want that we often wish you partakers of our plenty." >From this we know that the feast went on for three days, included 90 Indians," as Native Americans were called then, and had plentiful food. In addition to the venison provided by the Native Americans, there was enough wild fowl to supply the village for a week. The fowl included ducks, geese, turkeys and even swans. -------Original Message------- From: ORCADIA-L@rootsweb.com Date: 27 November 2003 12:20:48 To: ORCADIA-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [] Greetings of the Day Thanksgiving Day greetings to all my American friends of Orcadian descent! And a happy Thursday to those NOT celebrating this fall bounty festival. As I go to the kitchen to peel potatoes, I shall consider the great blessings of family ties which have me rooted in place, time, and a warm virtual hearth. The names of Orkney (Learmonth and Watts, Angus, Shearer, Slater, Peace) and the Highlands (Campbell) glisten on my family tree and remind me that this generation must do ITS part to make family stories proud ones and to inspire family loyalty. I certainly hope there is some way of tracing my ancestors to those of Stephen and Grumpy!!! Anne (Margaret Campbell S(c)later) Ardmore, PA (near Philadelphia To unsubscribe from the Orcadia mailing list, send an e-mail with the word 'unsubscribe' in the message body to orcadia-l-request@rootsweb.com

Hello Moi, I think the reason why 'x' people took up the time to move 'y' to 'z', was that it seemed like a good idea at the time. If archeologist could only discover the ancient site of the 'Ye Olde Library' they could then look up the stone tablets of 'Ye Olde Statistics' and all would be revealed. Preserving local history is of utmost importance, and the New Library is unquestionably a worthwhile project. But the funding of the project and future running costs is a matter of concern. I am reminded of Scotland's greatest philanthropist Andrew Carnegie who was responsible for many of Scotland's libraries etc. I wonder if there is such a thing as an Orkney farmer philanthropist? It seems that many project are funded by Lottery Grants, but lets not forget who supplies the money for the Lottery, - yes the man in the street who dreams of becoming an overnight millionaire. I wonder if mega rich business men do the Lottery? No doubt if the New Library needs extra cash for running costs, the money will be found from the same source as funding for the Tourist Board, Pick Centre, Orkney Ferries etc.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Take care Grumpy -------Original Message------- From: ORCADIA-L@rootsweb.com Date: 27 November 2003 04:25:57 To: ORCADIA-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [] Re: [] "Rediscovered" Stenness monoliths Dear Grumpy et al I've never been convinced of the population statistics for Orkney or any where else in Britain. They always seem to have been decided by people who lack personal experience of physical labour. The basis always seems to be a mathematical formula 'x' number of people moving 'y' weight of stone over 'z' distance. Usually without any allowance for what are now known as 'comfort breaks' The question should be why would 'x' people take up time which could be better spent, moving 'y' to 'z'. On that other subject of the library. In the nineteenth and twentieth century many people left Orkney. (We do have real statistics for this) Many of their descendants return to research their family history and the old library just could not cope with the volume of people in the archive. Nor could it store and preserve the records. The new library should allow the records of Orkney, which I believe are important, to be preserved. This has to be of benefit to Orkney, in that the records are properly preserved and that it encourages people to visit and research their family history. In the long term (although I admit it will be difficult to quantify) I believe that the new library will benefit Orkney financially. Best Wishes to All Moi McCarty > > >>To unsubscribe from the Orcadia mailing list, send an e-mail with the word >'unsubscribe' in the message body to orcadia-l-request@rootsweb.com > > -- M.E.McCarty M.E.McCarty,Bookseller 13 North Main Street 54 Junction Road Wigtown Kirkwall Scotland Orkney DG8 9HL KW15 1AG To unsubscribe from the Orcadia mailing list, send an e-mail with the word 'unsubscribe' in the message body to orcadia-l-request@rootsweb.com

Glad Tidings and Peace on Earth Stephen, There has been a few letters guessing at who, what and where am I. I am neither animal, vegetable or mineral, don't live in or around Stromness have never been a councilor (and never will be). I am the long forgotten spirit of Scotland, and if I could take on flesh form I would have been found fighting side by side with Scotland's greatest hero "William Wallace", (the real "William Wallace" and not "Mel Gibson"). Wallace was also seen as one of the bad guys, not only by the English King, but by the Scottish noble men of the time. But there is no denying the fact that for a short period of Scotland's history he managed to unite men of courage to fight for the basic right of "FREEDOM" What would the great man make of todays Scotland?, well not much has really changed, the role of the Scottish noblemen has been taken over by Scottish Politicians, and like their forebear they are still in the pocket of the English King - Tony Blair! Wallace was one of a kind and his like will never be found again, he lived in a time where living and dying by the sword was for some an accepted way of life. In today's modern society we are told that the correct way to fight for what's right is through lobbying. Unless of course you are in a position of power, you can then start dropping so called smart bombs, invade far off lands, under the banner of freeing oppressed people, and then declare that you will manage their valuable resources on their behalf - bah humbug! Orkney was given as a dowry for marriage many centuries ago, little regard was given to the effect on local inhabitants's at the time. Decisions are made at high level, and to ensure that correct decisions are made we need more true natives in these high level positions, who cannot be bought for pieces of silver. Take care Grumpy -------Original Message------- From: ORCADIA-L@rootsweb.com Date: 27 November 2003 02:34:34 To: ORCADIA-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [] Grumpy Hi there, Grumpy: I'm breaking a rule I made last week after the bantering about on the site of the "T" word. That was a ride of Titanic proportions. First time I ever got a red face from e-mail. You see, this week I decided to dump some of the mail off the in box, and read again a few of your comments in doing so. So here goes. I have to tell you that I admire your balance of common sense and power of observation and reporting ability on one side of the equation , and as an essential offset to keep you sane in this democratized shrinking world, a little cynical dark humour to exercise your capable brain where the world lets us all down. I gleaned from your musings that you once were a council member in Orkney. Is that correct? Assuming that the trip for you was a little frustrating, did you opt out? Ever think of giving it another go? When are your municipal elections, and how often? I too spent a time at this art form called government. When I bucked against the boring and popular with some of my ideas, they went over with my council like a pregnant poll vaulter. Seems all the bad guys were the best lobby people. Doing what was right, was usually unpopular. I became of the opinion that many meeting would have been more enjoyable with bar service. Poliiticians around here are either at sleep at meetings, or at war. So, Grumpy, why not toss the old hat in the ring, and colour up the political landscape on those unique little islands of ours? I'll help with the buttons and ads. Hey, at today's rates, I could work the phones from over here! Maybe someone in Australia would pitch in too. How could you beat that? Hey, when I'm over there I'd love to sit across a table from you in some quaint little stone dram well, and eat clams and exchange experiences and wash it all down with something wet and intoxicating. Good luck to you Grumpy. Hope there are lots more like you over there. Stephen To unsubscribe from the Orcadia mailing list, send an e-mail with the word 'unsubscribe' in the message body to orcadia-l-request@rootsweb.com

On 27/11/03 at 01:26 Grumpy wrote: >If they took the time to prepare the Brodgar site and measure it so >accurately then I am sure they would not have wasted a lot of effort in >transporting stones they did not intend to use. Ah but who says they were not intending to use the stone. Perhaps it was discarded after being broken (the two stones could be part of one larger monolith)..... >Is the lack of trees on Orkney down to a larger population at the time of >Brodgar, than previously though, who used the timber for construction, >firewood etc. There's no doubt that what woodland existed in Orkney from the Mesolithic through to the Bronza Age suffered as much at the hands of the population as it did with climatic deterioration. (BTW Francis Pryor in his Britain BC touches upon population levels and his related theories - a good read) S.

Hey, why not just dial up 1-800- OILGUYS for their cheque? On Thursday, November 27, 2003, at 07:10 AM, Grumpy wrote: > > Hello Moi, > > I think the reason why 'x' people took up the time to move 'y' to 'z', > was > that it seemed like a good idea at the time. If archeologist could only > discover the ancient site of the 'Ye Olde Library' they could then > look up > the stone tablets of 'Ye Olde Statistics' and all would be revealed. > > Preserving local history is of utmost importance, and the New Library > is > unquestionably a worthwhile project. But the funding of the project and > future running costs is a matter of concern. I am reminded of > Scotland's > greatest philanthropist Andrew Carnegie who was responsible for many of > Scotland's libraries etc. I wonder if there is such a thing as an > Orkney > farmer philanthropist? > > It seems that many project are funded by Lottery Grants, but lets not > forget > who supplies the money for the Lottery, - yes the man in the street who > dreams of becoming an overnight millionaire. I wonder if mega rich > business > men do the Lottery? > > No doubt if the New Library needs extra cash for running costs, the > money > will be found from the same source as funding for the Tourist Board, > Pick > Centre, Orkney Ferries etc.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > > Take care > > Grumpy > > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: ORCADIA-L@rootsweb.com > Date: 27 November 2003 04:25:57 > To: ORCADIA-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [] Re: [] "Rediscovered" Stenness monoliths > > Dear Grumpy et al > > I've never been convinced of the population statistics for Orkney or > any > where else in Britain. They always seem to have been decided by people > who lack personal experience of physical labour. The basis always seems > to be a mathematical formula 'x' number of people moving 'y' weight of > stone over 'z' distance. Usually without any allowance for what are now > known as 'comfort breaks' The question should be why would 'x' people > take up time which could be better spent, moving 'y' to 'z'. > On that other subject of the library. In the nineteenth and twentieth > century many people left Orkney. (We do have real statistics for this) > Many of their descendants return to research their family history and > the old library just could not cope with the volume of people in the > archive. Nor could it store and preserve the records. The new library > should allow the records of Orkney, which I believe are important, to > be > preserved. This has to be of benefit to Orkney, in that the records are > properly preserved and that it encourages people to visit and research > their family history. In the long term (although I admit it will be > difficult to quantify) I believe that the new library will benefit > Orkney financially. > > Best Wishes to All > > Moi McCarty > > >> >> >>> To unsubscribe from the Orcadia mailing list, send an e-mail with >>> the word >> 'unsubscribe' in the message body to orcadia-l-request@rootsweb.com >> >> > > -- > M.E.McCarty M.E.McCarty,Bookseller > 13 North Main Street 54 Junction Road > Wigtown Kirkwall > Scotland Orkney > DG8 9HL KW15 1AG > > > To unsubscribe from the Orcadia mailing list, send an e-mail with the > word > 'unsubscribe' in the message body to orcadia-l-request@rootsweb.com > > > > ==== ORCADIA Mailing List ==== > To unsubscribe from the Orcadia mailing list, send an e-mail with the > word > 'unsubscribe' in the message body to orcadia-l-request@rootsweb.com >

Hello, Grumpy, and Greetings with Gratitude on this frosty Canadian thursday morning: Well, Mel Gibson got the message out, didn't he Grumpy? Thanks to that movie, lots of people knew who William Wallace was. Regrettably, most patrons of that movie vaguely remember the issue with Bruce and Wallace and the Brits, but they vividly recall the battlefield line of the bare backsides of the Scots, kilts hiked and flashing one long cheeky moonscape to their opponents. Some day, along the border, will that happen in real life? Great photo op, all those kilts, butts facing south. Maybe on Wallace's birth day. How do people in your part of the world feel about the vivid international image association with Sean Connery that Scotland has somehow mustered up? He would be a formidable opponent for your Blair. By the way, your comment on lobbying is interesting. Lobbyists here are like big snakes, slithering amongst decision makers, threatening to strike at election time, but stealthily passing out, unseen filthy perks from beneath their scaly bellies, quietly and secretly, keeping their intimidation tactics to themselves and their individual victims, while wrapped around their elected prey's throats and hearts in a reassuring hug that could instantly become a death squeeze. We in Americas are the masters of the political patronage system. We did read over here that Scotland managed to wrangle some measure of political freedom from your Windsor people in recent years. Sean seemed to get the credit over here. I see that historical records and other artifacts have been returned from England, along with some large measure of authority. In fact, were not various records of old recently returned to Kirkwall? It that all fluff or did some measure of Scottish self-rule happen beyond legislative restructuring and window dressing? Over here we are fighting an ongoing civil war, a sort of extension of a short little battle fought on the Plains of Abraham (Quebec City) between the French and the Brits, way back when Moby Dick was a minnow. The French slept in that day, and had a bad experience, and ever since they want to re-write the history books' humiliating conclusion. Not underlined in the book, is the significant number of Scottish and yes Orcadian victors amongst the forces of the Brits. The kilts and pipes were there! It has been in recent times for the most part, a nice battle, with a lot of long intermissions so the factions can regroup, change political horses , and rearm from time to time. Occasionally there is a referendum, after which the defeated separatists go to sleep each night, wondering in truth how their wives cuddling beside them voted, but our federal government then pours all our national reserves into Quebec infrastructure and subsidized industries to "save the country." Occasionally someone arrogant from France drops over, massages the press, ticks off the westerners and we english-speaking easterners and re-invigorates the anti-separatists, all to the bewilderment of our massive numbers of first generation immigrants, holed up in in the cities, who never of course had historic battlefield status and identity bestowed upon their families. The show goes on. Currently we are in intermission, awaiting the coronation of another pro-Quebec prime minister (he's not french, just his wife and kids, so he assuredly won't become tainted). After he is in the chair, the perks will start to flow, too slowly for Quebec, and the intermission will cease and the battle will re-engage itself. This time maybe we'll feature a pipe parade in downtown Montreal, and hagis, streetside on barbecues just to colour things up. On my trips to Montreal, which city fascinates me, I routinely explain to any cute French lady that will listen, that if Quebec wants to separate from Canada, it's OK with me and all my neighborhood. But our view is, a caveat of sorts, the male separatists can't have any of the wonderful women of Quebec if it occurs. I swear that the ladies in Montreal get fluffed up and painted in heir most presentable and delectable form, to simply trot out to the street and put out the garbage. This country would be rendered mediocre to the extreme if we didn't have them in our available gene pool. They know it, so those wonderful women there will never consent to the radical males' demands, and my point is usually inhaled with a genuine blushed grin by any petite fille who will listen. Proud they are of their acknowledged effort in the area of grooming, clothing and paint. We used to hear of Scottish independence from time to time. Not much anymore though. Is it intermission there? There is a kiltmaker in our town who is Scottish and lovely. Her name is Margaret. She if the official kiltmaker to the Highland 48th Regiment in our army. In her store, glued below a glass counter, is a photo of Charles (Camille's friend), arms stretched out displaying a kilt she made for him, along with that look that of his which somehow looks better on a Royal Doulton plate. I was told by the clerk that customers of Scottish heritage, who tend to be her clientele, continually condemn the photo. I get the feeling that Scottish people who recently came here, have a thing about the royals. My Grandmother told me before she passed on, that one day I would be irreversibly more proud of my Orkney Scottish roots, than I would be of being Canadian. I am just now starting to appreciate the depth of her unusual comment. To bring this around to Orkney, is there a strong bond between Orcadians and Scotland, and is there some measure of difference in values and desires, which is identifiable? Are there any unresolved outstanding issues between the mainland and Orkney? How can Orkney muster up any meaningful political support for anything, as things are currently structured? We have no real orthodox values or culture in this country, only in Quebec, and amongst First Nations people. Vive la difference et c'est la guerre! So if the abandonment of orthodoxy is an issue with you,Grumpy, you are not alone in the world. Orkney from afar looks mighty good. Good to hear from you............Stephen On Thursday, November 27, 2003, at 06:14 AM, Grumpy wrote: > Glad Tidings and Peace on Earth Stephen, > > There has been a few letters guessing at who, what and where am I. > > I am neither animal, vegetable or mineral, don't live in or around > Stromness > have never been a councilor (and never will be). > > I am the long forgotten spirit of Scotland, and if I could take on > flesh > form I would have been found fighting side by side with Scotland's > greatest > hero "William Wallace", (the real "William Wallace" and not "Mel > Gibson"). > > Wallace was also seen as one of the bad guys, not only by the English > King, > but by the Scottish noble men of the time. But there is no denying the > fact > that for a short period of Scotland's history he managed to unite men > of > courage to fight for the basic right of "FREEDOM" > > What would the great man make of todays Scotland?, well not much has > really > changed, the role of the Scottish noblemen has been taken over by > Scottish > Politicians, and like their forebear they are still in the pocket of > the > English King - Tony Blair! > > Wallace was one of a kind and his like will never be found again, he > lived > in a time where living and dying by the sword was for some an accepted > way > of life. In today's modern society we are told that the correct way to > fight > for what's right is through lobbying. Unless of course you are in a > position > of power, you can then start dropping so called smart bombs, invade > far off > lands, under the banner of freeing oppressed people, and then declare > that > you will manage their valuable resources on their behalf - bah humbug! > > Orkney was given as a dowry for marriage many centuries ago, little > regard > was given to the effect on local inhabitants's at the time. Decisions > are > made at high level, and to ensure that correct decisions are made we > need > more true natives in these high level positions, who cannot be bought > for > pieces of silver. > > Take care > > Grumpy > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: ORCADIA-L@rootsweb.com > Date: 27 November 2003 02:34:34 > To: ORCADIA-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: [] Grumpy > > Hi there, Grumpy: > > I'm breaking a rule I made last week after the bantering about on the > site of the "T" word. That was a ride of Titanic proportions. First > time I ever got a red face from e-mail. > > You see, this week I decided to dump some of the mail off the in box, > and read again a few of your comments in doing so. So here goes. > > I have to tell you that I admire your balance of common sense and power > of observation and reporting ability on one side of the equation , and > as an essential offset to keep you sane in this democratized shrinking > world, a little cynical dark humour to exercise your capable brain > where the world lets us all down. > > I gleaned from your musings that you once were a council member in > Orkney. Is that correct? Assuming that the trip for you was a little > frustrating, did you opt out? Ever think of giving it another go? When > are your municipal elections, and how often? > > I too spent a time at this art form called government. When I bucked > against the boring and popular with some of my ideas, they went over > with my council like a pregnant poll vaulter. Seems all the bad guys > were the best lobby people. Doing what was right, was usually > unpopular. I became of the opinion that many meeting would have been > more enjoyable with bar service. Poliiticians around here are either at > sleep at meetings, or at war. > > So, Grumpy, why not toss the old hat in the ring, and colour up the > political landscape on those unique little islands of ours? I'll help > with the buttons and ads. Hey, at today's rates, I could work the > phones from over here! Maybe someone in Australia would pitch in too. > How could you beat that? > > Hey, when I'm over there I'd love to sit across a table from you in > some quaint little stone dram well, and eat clams and exchange > experiences and wash it all down with something wet and intoxicating. > > Good luck to you Grumpy. Hope there are lots more like you over there. > > Stephen > > > To unsubscribe from the Orcadia mailing list, send an e-mail with the > word > 'unsubscribe' in the message body to orcadia-l-request@rootsweb.com > > > > ==== ORCADIA Mailing List ==== > To unsubscribe from the Orcadia mailing list, send an e-mail with the > word > 'unsubscribe' in the message body to orcadia-l-request@rootsweb.com >

Grumpy wrote: >I especially like the part where early settlers >and native indians feasted together in peace and harmony - where and when >did it go all wrong? While making mashed potatoes (embelllished with roasted garlic, and cream cheese instead of milk or cream), I listened to the radio and heard the Thanksgiving story from the Indians' side. Here is part of it: the Pilgrim Fathers settled in the area now called Plymouth which was a big open space, open because the people who lived there up to a year or so before had all died in an epidemic of some European disease brought in by traders. Supposedly the P. F.s said that the land was "divinely cleared" for their use. It is always difficult for me, whose ancestors have been part of this country since the late 17th century, and have fought in every war that has a name (from the "French and Indian Wars" to the current dismaying troubles in Iraq), to reconcile the bounty that has proceeded from the exploitation of the land (exploitation is not necessarily a bad word) with the horrendous treatment of the native peoples and of the Africans brought as slaves. Which is why my church and its social justice projects are so dear to me: one way of giving back..... Anne, en route to a feast

On 26/11/03 at 22:32 Juanelan@aol.com wrote: > Weren't the Standing Stone Statues of Brittany - the Menhirs - supposed >to >bathe and drink once a year? > Are their stories like that associated with these? See http://www.orkneyjar.com/folklore/giants/walkstones.htm S.

Thanksgiving Day greetings to all my American friends of Orcadian descent! And a happy Thursday to those NOT celebrating this fall bounty festival. As I go to the kitchen to peel potatoes, I shall consider the great blessings of family ties which have me rooted in place, time, and a warm virtual hearth. The names of Orkney (Learmonth and Watts, Angus, Shearer, Slater, Peace) and the Highlands (Campbell) glisten on my family tree and remind me that this generation must do ITS part to make family stories proud ones and to inspire family loyalty. I certainly hope there is some way of tracing my ancestors to those of Stephen and Grumpy!!! Anne (Margaret Campbell S(c)later) Ardmore, PA (near Philadelphia

Dear Grumpy et al I've never been convinced of the population statistics for Orkney or any where else in Britain. They always seem to have been decided by people who lack personal experience of physical labour. The basis always seems to be a mathematical formula 'x' number of people moving 'y' weight of stone over 'z' distance. Usually without any allowance for what are now known as 'comfort breaks' The question should be why would 'x' people take up time which could be better spent, moving 'y' to 'z'. On that other subject of the library. In the nineteenth and twentieth century many people left Orkney. (We do have real statistics for this) Many of their descendants return to research their family history and the old library just could not cope with the volume of people in the archive. Nor could it store and preserve the records. The new library should allow the records of Orkney, which I believe are important, to be preserved. This has to be of benefit to Orkney, in that the records are properly preserved and that it encourages people to visit and research their family history. In the long term (although I admit it will be difficult to quantify) I believe that the new library will benefit Orkney financially. Best Wishes to All Moi McCarty In message <3FC552C2.000001.85721@computer01>, Grumpy <grumpy_in_orkney@btinternet.com> writes >Lots of interesting theories regarding how the stones were moved. But what >ever method was used then it must be presumed that timber from a local >source would have been used. If the stones were transported by water they >would have had to be placed on a substantial raft to take the weight of >stones and rollers would still have been needed to move them to their final >resting place. > >Regarding the stones laying beside the loch and the ones that are said to >lay beneath the loch, could it be possible that at one time an other stone >circle could have existed where the loch is now, and that with the passing >of time the area became flooded and eroded and the stone circle then fell >down. > >If they took the time to prepare the Brodgar site and measure it so >accurately then I am sure they would not have wasted a lot of effort in >transporting stones they did not intend to use. > >The text mentions that scholar Aubrey Burl estimates that a work force of >around 300 would have been available for construction work, which is based >on an estimated population. I belive many early settlements still remain >undiscovered, some may even lay beneath the lochs if the area did in fact >flood at a later date. > >Estimates always make me uneasy, as they are usually based on some form of >statistics, which reminds me of a famous statesman words "there are lies, >damn lies and statistics! Another point to note on estimates is - the >original estimate for the new Kirkwall Pier was quite a few million pounds >below they final finished cost! > >Everyone will have heard about the stone statues on the Easter Islands, I >remember a programme where the theory was that at one time the Island was >heavily wooded but the natives cut down a lot of the trees for dwellings and >moving the stones on rollers! > >Is the lack of trees on Orkney down to a larger population at the time of >Brodgar, than previously though, who used the timber for construction, >firewood etc. > >It is not uncommon for archeologist/scholars to revaluate their theories >when new discoveries are made. > >Take care > >Grumpy. > > >==== ORCADIA Mailing List ==== >To unsubscribe from the Orcadia mailing list, send an e-mail with the word >'unsubscribe' in the message body to orcadia-l-request@rootsweb.com > > -- M.E.McCarty M.E.McCarty,Bookseller 13 North Main Street 54 Junction Road Wigtown Kirkwall Scotland Orkney DG8 9HL KW15 1AG

Lots of interesting theories regarding how the stones were moved. But what ever method was used then it must be presumed that timber from a local source would have been used. If the stones were transported by water they would have had to be placed on a substantial raft to take the weight of stones and rollers would still have been needed to move them to their final resting place. Regarding the stones laying beside the loch and the ones that are said to lay beneath the loch, could it be possible that at one time an other stone circle could have existed where the loch is now, and that with the passing of time the area became flooded and eroded and the stone circle then fell down. If they took the time to prepare the Brodgar site and measure it so accurately then I am sure they would not have wasted a lot of effort in transporting stones they did not intend to use. The text mentions that scholar Aubrey Burl estimates that a work force of around 300 would have been available for construction work, which is based on an estimated population. I belive many early settlements still remain undiscovered, some may even lay beneath the lochs if the area did in fact flood at a later date. Estimates always make me uneasy, as they are usually based on some form of statistics, which reminds me of a famous statesman words "there are lies, damn lies and statistics! Another point to note on estimates is - the original estimate for the new Kirkwall Pier was quite a few million pounds below they final finished cost! Everyone will have heard about the stone statues on the Easter Islands, I remember a programme where the theory was that at one time the Island was heavily wooded but the natives cut down a lot of the trees for dwellings and moving the stones on rollers! Is the lack of trees on Orkney down to a larger population at the time of Brodgar, than previously though, who used the timber for construction, firewood etc. It is not uncommon for archeologist/scholars to revaluate their theories when new discoveries are made. Take care Grumpy.

Almost a year late, but I've finally posted two pics of the monoliths found in 2002 by the shore of the Stenness loch. These added weight to the idea that the stones for Brodgar/Stenness were transported by water to the 'construction site(s)'. http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/brodgar/building.htm -- Sigurd Towrie Blackhall - Kirbister - Stromness - Orkney Heritage of Orkney: www.orkneyjar.com Home: sigurd@orkneyjar.com Work: sigurd.towrie@orcadian.co.uk

All, Weren't the Standing Stone Statues of Brittany - the Menhirs - supposed to bathe and drink once a year? And that bath time been the solstice but had been moved to Christmas Eve? And when they moved, at midnight, of course, one could travel down a stair to find their treasure there. Are their stories like that associated with these? Dan in Chicago

Hi there, Grumpy: I'm breaking a rule I made last week after the bantering about on the site of the "T" word. That was a ride of Titanic proportions. First time I ever got a red face from e-mail. You see, this week I decided to dump some of the mail off the in box, and read again a few of your comments in doing so. So here goes. I have to tell you that I admire your balance of common sense and power of observation and reporting ability on one side of the equation , and as an essential offset to keep you sane in this democratized shrinking world, a little cynical dark humour to exercise your capable brain where the world lets us all down. I gleaned from your musings that you once were a council member in Orkney. Is that correct? Assuming that the trip for you was a little frustrating, did you opt out? Ever think of giving it another go? When are your municipal elections, and how often? I too spent a time at this art form called government. When I bucked against the boring and popular with some of my ideas, they went over with my council like a pregnant poll vaulter. Seems all the bad guys were the best lobby people. Doing what was right, was usually unpopular. I became of the opinion that many meeting would have been more enjoyable with bar service. Poliiticians around here are either at sleep at meetings, or at war. So, Grumpy, why not toss the old hat in the ring, and colour up the political landscape on those unique little islands of ours? I'll help with the buttons and ads. Hey, at today's rates, I could work the phones from over here! Maybe someone in Australia would pitch in too. How could you beat that? Hey, when I'm over there I'd love to sit across a table from you in some quaint little stone dram well, and eat clams and exchange experiences and wash it all down with something wet and intoxicating. Good luck to you Grumpy. Hope there are lots more like you over there. Stephen