cold you please stop sending me this stuff.I have asked to unsubscribe for 2 months john clouston ----- Original Message ----- From: <ORCADIA-D-request@rootsweb.com> To: <ORCADIA-D@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 12:02 PM Subject: ORCADIA-D Digest V03 #208

In case anyone's missed it, "they" finally got the Radio Orkney evening programs working on line, after a disappointing false start a while back. ("They" being those folks at BBC Scotland, not those at Radio Orkney whose work is always done properly.) Tuesday night is full of wonderful Orkney tales and some music. It reminds me of being at the John's Mass Foy in June. Karen

Maeshowe webcams now fully operational and awaiting sunsets. Actually Sunday was a very good demonstration of "flashing". Working on new images to add to site for later this week. http://www.maeshowe.co.uk -- Charles Tait Photographic Limited, Kelton, St Ola, Orkney, UK KW15 1TR Tel 01856 873738 Fax 01856 875313 Mobile 07785 220269 All outgoing and incoming mail is checked by Norton Antivirus 2003 email charles.tait@zetnet.co.uk website http://www.charles-tait.co.uk

Whoops. Sorry Charles. I just found my answer about what I was seeing from your site. Sorry about the redundant question! Pat

G'day Charles, Thanks for the reminder of the webcams. Doesn't look as if we'll see much of a sunset tonight. Looks pretty overcast. I've got a couple questions about what I'm seeing. On the large inside view, I see a stone out of the wall, and sort of a depression there. What is that? I remember the side chambers, but this little block and opening, I'm just not sure where that was. I'm trying to get perspective. Haven't seen one of the flashes except in the stills so far. Just never get here at the right time. I'll keep checking though. Pat ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles Tait" <charles.tait@zetnet.co.uk> To: <ORCADIA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 7:14 AM Subject: [<orcadia>] Maeshowe > Maeshowe webcams now fully operational and awaiting sunsets. Actually > Sunday was a very good demonstration of "flashing". Working on new > images to add to site for later this week. > http://www.maeshowe.co.uk > -- > Charles Tait Photographic Limited, Kelton, St Ola, Orkney, UK KW15 1TR > Tel 01856 873738 Fax 01856 875313 Mobile 07785 220269 > All outgoing and incoming mail is checked by Norton Antivirus 2003 > email charles.tait@zetnet.co.uk > website http://www.charles-tait.co.uk > > > > > > ==== ORCADIA Mailing List ==== > To unsubscribe from the Orcadia mailing list, send an e-mail with the word > 'unsubscribe' in the message body to orcadia-l-request@rootsweb.com > > >

With my moderators hat on again, I'll repeat the message sent last week. Please refrain from off-topic postings to this mailing list. A reminder of the list "rules": "This list is for the discussion of Orkney, Orcadian traditions and heritage." "No rude comments or flaming in the list! No discussion of flaming in the list. If you do not like the way someone formats their queries or responses, or the content of their subject titles, take it up with the me, NOT in the list. The list is for discussions as detailed above only." -- Sigurd Towrie Blackhall - Kirbister - Stromness - Orkney Heritage of Orkney: www.orkneyjar.com Home: sigurd@orkneyjar.com Work: sigurd.towrie@orcadian.co.uk

To Anne-Marie my sincerest thanks for calling attention to the extremist flavor of some of the recent postings. Xenophobia is anything but "humbug," manifested as a Kirkwall boy being physically attacked as an outsider by local boys in a Stromness school yard (a story my dearest Peggy told me earlier tonight), or in some global conflict. If you wring every drop of meaning out of the Greek roots, "xenophobia" means something like fear or hatred of a guest, a great sin both to the Greeks and to our other cultural ancestors, the Hebrews. As descendants of Abraham, in one sense or another, each of us is a "stranger in a strange land" with the duty to treat the neighbor, the stranger, the foreigner, the guest in our midst with respect and love, and the right to expect such treatment from others. Something Stephen Davie wrote a few days ago struck a responsive chord with me, about how his grandmother had passed on to him that his awareness of the importance of his Scottish and Orcadian heritage would increase as years go by. I too was given by my grandparents a healthy dose of the spirit of Scotland (which, in spite of Grumpy's eloquence, is far from "long-forgotten"), which they and their siblings helped spread to South Africa, Australia and New Zealand as well as Canada and the United States. Scotland has contributed to the arts, letters and sciences enormously out of proportion to its population, and the desire for freedom from centralized authority is part of that great legacy. Grumpy mentioned three of his heroes, Wallace, King and Mandela, and we could doubtless come up with a few others, heroes of mine, too, and of all who love freedom. Blair and Bush, just to choose two modern "leaders" at random, seem like political hacks to me and will only become legendary if the threshhold for greatness drops considerably, but part of adulthood is making the best of a bad situation. My Scotchness is bristly enough that the idea of an independent Scotland appeals to me, partly because a Hanoverian is still a Hanoverian, regardless of how many times they changed their last name. Ultimately my opinion on the matter means nothing, of course, since the best thing I can hope to do by voting is to chase the Republicans out of office here in the States. Whether the Act of Union survives the ballot box or not, the same situation of sharing that big island with the nation to the south will still exist. Is there a consensus among the independence party as to whether the nation would be a monarchy or a republic? In spite of the fact that the definition of "plutocracy" is "rule by a small class of rich men," we laughingly call our government a republic. I was just wondering if there were a Stuart (or Stewart!) Pretender waiting in the wings. I certainly hope an independent Scotland can field a better rugby team for the next World Cup, although in fairness the Scots whipped the American side soundly and made them cry like little girls. If anyone is still awake, thank you for reading this far. I remember my summer in Orkney, 30 years ago, very fondly, for the stark beauty of the place and the opportunity to meet so many family members and other wonderful people and experience their way of life, and finally for the lifetime addiction to fresh cheese and oat cakes. I will return, someday soon, so you might want to count the silver and put some newspapers down. Have a pleasant Monday. Regards, George Coghill Olympia, Washington USA

Hello Anne-Marie, Xenophobic, bah humbug. I actually had to look the word up in the dictionary to find out what it meant. Needless to say I was shocked to see that it meant "a fear or dislike of foreigners or strangers", this certainly does not apply to me. Perhaps you have read more into my letters than intended, I would suggest that by reading "between the lines" you will find the true meaning of what I am saying. The whole course of Orkney and Scottish history was changed by the death of The Maid of Norway" in 1290 and had direct bearing on Wallace's appearance in Scottish history. To understand what Wallace stood for I suggest that you try reading the book "On the Trail of William Wallace" by David R Ross. A strong nation is one that take's pride in heritage and shows compassion to others and treats it's fellow man with respect. Respect is earned and is not god given, it matters not if Blair is Scots, Welsh, Irish or English, what does matter is he a man of integrity or a puppet on a string to a greater power. I am disgusted by the way the people of Africa were treated and taken into slavery by the white man, does that make me a racist against white's. If you were to take that last remark at face value you might assume that I am then a blackman (which I am not). The fact that I would like to see a FREE Scotland, completely separate from England, Wales or Ireland does not make me Xenophobic, just an idealist. Also the fact that I would like Scotland to have it's own future King (preferably not one that will be accused of getting caught in bed with his man servant) does not make me homophobic. Take care, and peace and good will to all foreigners, strangers, what ever your colour, ethnic background etc, etc, etc. Grumpy -------Original Message------- From: ORCADIA-L@rootsweb.com Date: 30 November 2003 18:55:46 To: ORCADIA-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [] Re: [] Grumpy Dear All, the English King Tony Blair is, like so much of his court (cabinet) a Scot - born in Edinburgh. I'm starting to find some of the correspondence a bit xenophobic. Anne-Marie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Grumpy" <grumpy_in_orkney@btinternet.com> To: <ORCADIA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2003 11:14 AM Subject: [<orcadia>] Re: [] Grumpy > Glad Tidings and Peace on Earth Stephen, > > There has been a few letters guessing at who, what and where am I. > > I am neither animal, vegetable or mineral, don't live in or around Stromness > have never been a councilor (and never will be). > > I am the long forgotten spirit of Scotland, and if I could take on flesh > form I would have been found fighting side by side with Scotland's greatest > hero "William Wallace", (the real "William Wallace" and not "Mel Gibson"). > > Wallace was also seen as one of the bad guys, not only by the English King, > but by the Scottish noble men of the time. But there is no denying the fact > that for a short period of Scotland's history he managed to unite men of > courage to fight for the basic right of "FREEDOM" > > What would the great man make of todays Scotland?, well not much has really > changed, the role of the Scottish noblemen has been taken over by Scottish > Politicians, and like their forebear they are still in the pocket of the > English King - Tony Blair! > > Wallace was one of a kind and his like will never be found again, he lived > in a time where living and dying by the sword was for some an accepted way > of life. In today's modern society we are told that the correct way to fight > for what's right is through lobbying. Unless of course you are in a position > of power, you can then start dropping so called smart bombs, invade far off > lands, under the banner of freeing oppressed people, and then declare that > you will manage their valuable resources on their behalf - bah humbug! > > Orkney was given as a dowry for marriage many centuries ago, little regard > was given to the effect on local inhabitants's at the time. Decisions are > made at high level, and to ensure that correct decisions are made we need > more true natives in these high level positions, who cannot be bought for > pieces of silver. > > Take care > > Grumpy > > To unsubscribe from the Orcadia mailing list, send an e-mail with the word 'unsubscribe' in the message body to orcadia-l-request@rootsweb.com

Greetings Les, Please refer to my letter as sent to Anne-Marie. As far as I am aware I have made no cheap jibs at the English, and would also respectfully suggest you try reading the book by David R Ross. There is enough hate and greed in this world, without me adding to it. Perhaps I have quoted some of Scotland's greatest hero's on more than one occasion, but let's not forget Nelson Mandela and Martin Luther King, the former imprisoned for his beliefs and the latter killed for his beliefs. I am sure Wallace would have been proud of both just as I am. The cry is still FREEDOM! Take care Grumpy -------Original Message------- From: ORCADIA-L@rootsweb.com Date: 30 November 2003 19:23:13 To: ORCADIA-L@rootsweb.com Subject: RE: [] Re: [] Grumpy I'd agree with Anne-Marie - If you want cheap jibes at the English there's no doubt a Scot-Nat group somewhere ..... The St Andrews prayer 'Help us love our land and hate no other' applies somewhere. Who first attributed Wallace as fighting for 'freedom', anyway? And indeed freedom for whom from what? I suspect that's a fairly new concept. Les -----Original Message----- From: Anne-Marie Tye [mailto:annemarie.tye@btinternet.com] Sent: 30 November 2003 18:55 To: ORCADIA-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [<orcadia>] Re: [] Grumpy Dear All, the English King Tony Blair is, like so much of his court (cabinet) a Scot - born in Edinburgh. I'm starting to find some of the correspondence a bit xenophobic. Anne-Marie

I'd agree with Anne-Marie - If you want cheap jibes at the English there's no doubt a Scot-Nat group somewhere ..... The St Andrews prayer 'Help us love our land and hate no other' applies somewhere. Who first attributed Wallace as fighting for 'freedom', anyway? And indeed freedom for whom from what? I suspect that's a fairly new concept. Les -----Original Message----- From: Anne-Marie Tye [mailto:annemarie.tye@btinternet.com] Sent: 30 November 2003 18:55 To: ORCADIA-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [<orcadia>] Re: [] Grumpy Dear All, the English King Tony Blair is, like so much of his court (cabinet) a Scot - born in Edinburgh. I'm starting to find some of the correspondence a bit xenophobic. Anne-Marie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Grumpy" <grumpy_in_orkney@btinternet.com> To: <ORCADIA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2003 11:14 AM Subject: [<orcadia>] Re: [] Grumpy > Glad Tidings and Peace on Earth Stephen, > > There has been a few letters guessing at who, what and where am I. > > I am neither animal, vegetable or mineral, don't live in or around Stromness > have never been a councilor (and never will be). > > I am the long forgotten spirit of Scotland, and if I could take on flesh > form I would have been found fighting side by side with Scotland's greatest > hero "William Wallace", (the real "William Wallace" and not "Mel Gibson"). > > Wallace was also seen as one of the bad guys, not only by the English King, > but by the Scottish noble men of the time. But there is no denying the fact > that for a short period of Scotland's history he managed to unite men of > courage to fight for the basic right of "FREEDOM" > > What would the great man make of todays Scotland?, well not much has really > changed, the role of the Scottish noblemen has been taken over by Scottish > Politicians, and like their forebear they are still in the pocket of the > English King - Tony Blair! > > Wallace was one of a kind and his like will never be found again, he lived > in a time where living and dying by the sword was for some an accepted way > of life. In today's modern society we are told that the correct way to fight > for what's right is through lobbying. Unless of course you are in a position > of power, you can then start dropping so called smart bombs, invade far off > lands, under the banner of freeing oppressed people, and then declare that > you will manage their valuable resources on their behalf - bah humbug! > > Orkney was given as a dowry for marriage many centuries ago, little regard > was given to the effect on local inhabitants's at the time. Decisions are > made at high level, and to ensure that correct decisions are made we need > more true natives in these high level positions, who cannot be bought for > pieces of silver. > > Take care > > Grumpy > > ==== ORCADIA Mailing List ==== To unsubscribe from the Orcadia mailing list, send an e-mail with the word 'unsubscribe' in the message body to orcadia-l-request@rootsweb.com

Dear All, the English King Tony Blair is, like so much of his court (cabinet) a Scot - born in Edinburgh. I'm starting to find some of the correspondence a bit xenophobic. Anne-Marie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Grumpy" <grumpy_in_orkney@btinternet.com> To: <ORCADIA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2003 11:14 AM Subject: [<orcadia>] Re: [] Grumpy > Glad Tidings and Peace on Earth Stephen, > > There has been a few letters guessing at who, what and where am I. > > I am neither animal, vegetable or mineral, don't live in or around Stromness > have never been a councilor (and never will be). > > I am the long forgotten spirit of Scotland, and if I could take on flesh > form I would have been found fighting side by side with Scotland's greatest > hero "William Wallace", (the real "William Wallace" and not "Mel Gibson"). > > Wallace was also seen as one of the bad guys, not only by the English King, > but by the Scottish noble men of the time. But there is no denying the fact > that for a short period of Scotland's history he managed to unite men of > courage to fight for the basic right of "FREEDOM" > > What would the great man make of todays Scotland?, well not much has really > changed, the role of the Scottish noblemen has been taken over by Scottish > Politicians, and like their forebear they are still in the pocket of the > English King - Tony Blair! > > Wallace was one of a kind and his like will never be found again, he lived > in a time where living and dying by the sword was for some an accepted way > of life. In today's modern society we are told that the correct way to fight > for what's right is through lobbying. Unless of course you are in a position > of power, you can then start dropping so called smart bombs, invade far off > lands, under the banner of freeing oppressed people, and then declare that > you will manage their valuable resources on their behalf - bah humbug! > > Orkney was given as a dowry for marriage many centuries ago, little regard > was given to the effect on local inhabitants's at the time. Decisions are > made at high level, and to ensure that correct decisions are made we need > more true natives in these high level positions, who cannot be bought for > pieces of silver. > > Take care > > Grumpy > >

Grumpy for Earl of Stromness!!!!!!!! ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Coghill" <gcog@webtv.net> To: <ORCADIA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2003 3:42 AM Subject: Re: [<orcadia>] Grumpy Please! -George >Steve Davie wrote: >Hi there, Grumpy: >I'm breaking a rule I made last week after >the bantering about on the site of the "T" >word. That was a ride of Titanic >proportions. First time I ever got a red >face from e-mail. >You see, this week I decided to dump >some of the mail off the in box, and read >again a few of your comments in doing so. >So here goes. >I have to tell you that I admire your >balance of common sense and power of >observation and reporting ability on one >side of the equation , and as an essential >offset to keep you sane in this >democratized shrinking world, a little >cynical dark humour to exercise your >capable brain where the world lets us all >down. >I gleaned from your musings that you >once were a council member in Orkney. Is >that correct? Assuming that the trip for >you was a little frustrating, did you opt >out? Ever think of giving it another go? >When are your municipal elections, and >how often? >I too spent a time at this art form called >government. When I bucked against the >boring and popular with some of my >ideas, they went over with my council like >a pregnant poll vaulter. Seems all the bad >guys were the best lobby people. Doing >what was right, was usually unpopular. I >became of the opinion that many meeting >would have been more enjoyable with bar >service. Poliiticians around here are either >at sleep at meetings, or at war. >So, Grumpy, why not toss the old hat in >the ring, and colour up the political >landscape on those unique little islands of >ours? I'll help with the buttons and ads. >Hey, at today's rates, I could work the >phones from over here! Maybe someone >in Australia would pitch in too. How could >you beat that? >Hey, when I'm over there I'd love to sit >across a table from you in some quaint >little stone dram well, and eat clams and >exchange experiences and wash it all >down with something wet and intoxicating. >Good luck to you Grumpy. Hope there are >lots more like you over there. >Stephen ==== ORCADIA Mailing List ==== To unsubscribe from the Orcadia mailing list, send an e-mail with the word 'unsubscribe' in the message body to orcadia-l-request@rootsweb.com

Robert: In observing your enthusiastic questions as to Orkney politics, the silence of the respondents is deafening. Elsewhere in the free world, the mere mention of government would draw a flood of opinions and soiled language. Unchanged as those dear islands may physically be, through all these thousands of years, with ancient rocks still standing and caves of old intact and the surf pounding away on those spectacular photographed shores we enjoy seeing, the change in the political flavour cannot be denied, even from afar. It has progressed from clashing swords to cashing hordes {of travelers cheques}, and the representation weakened along with it. Colonial Orkney rages on, defended in the mighty house of democracy with but one voice for seventy islands. Well, OK I guess. This is unique in the world to be sure. But our gracious Orkney hosts could well be frustrated with such a minimalist representation on the big kilted island to the west, where all those other mainisle folks factually make decisions for wee Orkney. The one representative must be a virtual voice in the wilderness. I picture his seat in the back left corner, beneath the sign pointing to the washrooms. So it might take munching time before the envisioned verbal onslaught occurs. Perhaps the last advocate of Orkney independence was set adrift in a leaky longboat, or failing to come home from the pub, was found strangled in a ditch, the Sinclair scarf still tight around his objectionable voice box. When the Brits imposed their style in Africa and in islands in the Americas, in time the frustrated locals stood up, and not without bloodshed in some cases, and declared eventual freedom with hardwon independence. While this may not have been a good thing for Uganda, for example, the folks living in Turks and Caicos, Barbados and The Virgin Islands, seem to be happier. I recall the USA having a little tussle back then too. They felt that far afield decisions didn't protect the local interest. Hopefully, the chains will fall and Orkney lips and hearts will be free to speak with their normal eloquence and reservation, and your excellent points on this "topic" will get the air play it deserves. Seems most other British Islands, taken by force or by a mere imperial presence, have gone their own way. Orkney seems unique in this regard. Therefore the issue of governance is intriguing, perhaps moreso to we colonials than locals, based on our success after the weaning and their life under the dictatorial thumb of Tony the Tiger or Prince Charles. Good luck.................stephen November 28, 2003, at 03:03 PM, robert@scarth.net wrote: > On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 10:20:24 EST, Juanelan@aol.com wrote: > >> >> How does Election Day work in Orkney? >> WHo gets out the vote? What is the local political structure and > heirarchy? >> Are government workers allowed to help 'encourage' people to vote? >> And is there a, er, ahem, a column on the card that they would want >> to >> encourage? >> Who registers people to vote there? What is the lag time between > residency >> requirements and registration? >> .... >> Now, how are the elections runs in Orkney? What is the dedicated > politcal >> make up? >> > > For the UK Parliament Orkney joins with Shetland to send one MP to > Westminster, but each send their own MSP to the Scottish Parliament. > All > three representatives are Liberal Democrats and all have among the > safest > seats in the whole country. Orkney and Shetland have had a Liberal > representative in the UK Parliament for the last 50 years and as things > stand it looks like we will for the next 50 years. Because things are > so > unlikely to change there is very little electioneering in Orkney (I > haven't > been in Orkney for the last few elections, but I can't imagine things > have > changed). You probably wouldn't notice there was an election until you > turned on the TV. > > The rules governing the elections are the same as for elsewhere in > Scotland > and the UK; whoever gets the most votes wins. For the Scottish > Parliament > there is an additional complication. As well as voting for a member to > represent your area you vote for a party, then additional MSPs are > allocated so that overall the proportion of MSPs for each party > reflects > the proportion of votes for each party in this second vote. This is > called > "The Additional Member System". > > There are also MEPs - Members of the European Parliament, in > Strasbourg. > There are 8 such MEPs for the whole of Scotland and they are elected > by a > mechanism that only three people have ever understood - one of whom is > dead, the second has gone mad, and the third has forgotten. Nobody has > the > faintest idea who any of the MEPs are, in fact after the last european > election I was shocked to discover that I'd lost my seat - I'd been an > MEP > for 5 years and didn't know! > > Robert > > > ==== ORCADIA Mailing List ==== > To unsubscribe from the Orcadia mailing list, send an e-mail with the > word > 'unsubscribe' in the message body to orcadia-l-request@rootsweb.com >

On 28 November 2003 23:17, Grumpy wrote: > Is there any record of how many monolith's lay beneath the > lochs and is there any theory as to what the water levels of > the lochs would have been during the period when Brodgar was erected?. Unfortunately not. As far as I'm aware no investigations have been made in the water of the lochs, although local tradition has it that there are a number at the bottom of the Harray loch. Regarding water levels, I was just discussing this the other week in relation to the Stenness loch. Unfortunately, there have been no studies done of this either, although a renewed zeal in investigating Mesolithic landscape could remedy this in the near future. > I noted an old postcard for sale on Ebay UK, it showed the > Stone's O Stenness at a time when there was a table top/alter > adjacent to the Standing Stones. I remember this slab of > stone supported by the stone pillars as a child, but can't > recall when or why this was dismantled., can you throw any > light on the subject. The 'altar' was erected in 1907 from a number of stones that had been lying prone at the site. It stood until 1972 when it was toppled. At the time it was declared mindless vandalism - a drunken prank. But there's always been ripple of feeling that it was deliberate and that the structure never belonged there in the first place. There's more here: http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/standingstones/altar.htm > On the Orkneyjar is states that Orkney was given as a dowry > in marriage, which is what I have always been led to believe, > but C. Tait seems to disagree, and that it was mortgaged. > Can you throw any light on the situation, so far all the > searches I have done on the subject confirm the dowry. The islands were pawned in lieu of a dowry. Christian I agreed to provide his daughter with a 60,000 Rhenish florin dowry. Something he could certainly not afford. Orkney was therefore mortgaged to Scotland for 50,000 and would be returned when the king was in a position to stump up the cash. However, this left him with 10,000 to be paid. He raised some himself and then mortgaged Shetland for the remainder. -- Sigurd Towrie Blackhall - Kirbister - Stromness - Orkney Heritage of Orkney: www.orkneyjar.com Home: sigurd@orkneyjar.com Work: sigurd.towrie@orcadian.co.uk

Hello Grumpy! >>>On the Orkneyjar is states that Orkney was given as a dowry in marriage, which is what I have always been led to believe, but C. Tait seems to disagree, and that it was mortgaged. Can you throw any light on the situation, so far all the searches I have done on the subject confirm the dowry. History is always made and written down by "those who survived in power". ... and that are as this case is concerned - obviously - the Scots and their point of view. The only surviving documents (those in the Rijksrchivet in Kopenhagn) are clear, stating "our lands and our rights". Ours = the lands and the rights of a king of Norway (Christian, the Danish-Nowegian King at that time expressivly makes a reference to his forebearers in that case "the Kings of Norway"). But the question whether it was a dowry or a mortgage is of secondary interest. The fact is that no Norwegian king or any Norwegian-Danish king (there was a union of the crowns at that time) had any power over the properties of an Udaler or a Norse Jarl - as far as the properties of his own right as an udaler or jarl are concerned. That's why Christian could not "give" all of Orkney or all of Shetland neither as a dowry nor as a mortgage. The Scottish Crown knew about the fact - and consequently acted in different ways in both Orkney and Shetland. The Crown later on bought the Earldom of Orkney and incorporated Orkney into "Scotland" after a short time under the Privy Council while Shetland (at the time in question it was no more part of the Norse Earldom of Orkney but more or less a crown estate of the kings of Norway) remaind under the government of the Scottish Privy Council (in 1571 the Scottish Parlament confirmed the use of Old Norse for Shetland, property sales had to be registered at the Bergen Court and were notified only to the Privy Council etc. ... and the Scottish officials in charge like the Sinclairs of Bows or Quendale acted according to this rules) ... nevertheless ... tempi passati ... :-) Wolfgang

Dear Sigurd, So I gather from the appropriate sections of Orkneyjar.com that first Orkney and then Shetland were offered to be held by James III as security for the agreed-upon dowry of 50,000ƒ, and that suzerainty rather than ownership as such passed to the crown of Scotland when the dowry was not paid, although there were as well considerable royal estates as well. I'm not clear what difference this made in everyday life since the Earldom had been in Scottish hands for some time, although you do state that the use of the Norn language dwindled rather quckly after the change of possession.. I will try to read up on the disastrous tenure of Earl Robert Stewart, and on the matter dealt with in the previous paragraph, and I would certainly welcome any information from our resident experts. During the period after the "abdication" of Mary Q of S and before James VI came of age, was Orkney aligned more with the Stewarts or the Stuarts, if you see what I mean? Or, for that matter, was that question so oversimplified as to be meaningless? Thanks as always to Sigurd for constantly improving his wonderful site, and to any of you who might like to respond to my curiosity. Respectful regards, George from Washington, USA

Hello Siguard, Is there any record of how many monolith's lay beneath the lochs and is there any theory as to what the water levels of the lochs would have been during the period when Brodgar was erected?. I know that many of Orkney lochs have very shallow areas of water, is it possible that these shallows would have been dry land during Brodgar's construction. I noted an old postcard for sale on Ebay UK, it showed the Stone's O Stenness at a time when there was a table top/alter adjacent to the Standing Stones. I remember this slab of stone supported by the stone pillars as a child, but can't recall when or why this was dismantled., can you throw any light on the subject. On the Orkneyjar is states that Orkney was given as a dowry in marriage, which is what I have always been led to believe, but C. Tait seems to disagree, and that it was mortgaged. Can you throw any light on the situation, so far all the searches I have done on the subject confirm the dowry. Take care Grumpy -------Original Message------- From: ORCADIA-L@rootsweb.com Date: 27 November 2003 11:08:53 To: ORCADIA-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [] Re: [] "Rediscovered" Stenness monoliths On 27/11/03 at 01:26 Grumpy wrote: >If they took the time to prepare the Brodgar site and measure it so >accurately then I am sure they would not have wasted a lot of effort in >transporting stones they did not intend to use. Ah but who says they were not intending to use the stone. Perhaps it was discarded after being broken (the two stones could be part of one larger monolith)..... >Is the lack of trees on Orkney down to a larger population at the time of >Brodgar, than previously though, who used the timber for construction, >firewood etc. There's no doubt that what woodland existed in Orkney from the Mesolithic through to the Bronza Age suffered as much at the hands of the population as it did with climatic deterioration. (BTW Francis Pryor in his Britain BC touches upon population levels and his related theories - a good read) S. To unsubscribe from the Orcadia mailing list, send an e-mail with the word 'unsubscribe' in the message body to orcadia-l-request@rootsweb.com

Robert- The Orkney/Shetland situation sounds much like the close-knit Daley family in the Chicago, Illinois, mayoral competition. Father ruled for many years and son followed, soon. Thank you for your reply - Are the candidates for Orkney/Shetland MP and MSP chosen by election by a majority choice among the members of the Liberal Democrat group or their opposition? How do they become candidates? Too bad you were unaware of your MEP status, you probably could have cast your vote and re- elected yourself to a seat and could have been the only one to know it!!! Very interesting. Jim Driver - Denver, CO

On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 10:20:24 EST, Juanelan@aol.com wrote: > > How does Election Day work in Orkney? > WHo gets out the vote? What is the local political structure and heirarchy? > Are government workers allowed to help 'encourage' people to vote? > And is there a, er, ahem, a column on the card that they would want to > encourage? > Who registers people to vote there? What is the lag time between residency > requirements and registration? > .... > Now, how are the elections runs in Orkney? What is the dedicated politcal > make up? > For the UK Parliament Orkney joins with Shetland to send one MP to Westminster, but each send their own MSP to the Scottish Parliament. All three representatives are Liberal Democrats and all have among the safest seats in the whole country. Orkney and Shetland have had a Liberal representative in the UK Parliament for the last 50 years and as things stand it looks like we will for the next 50 years. Because things are so unlikely to change there is very little electioneering in Orkney (I haven't been in Orkney for the last few elections, but I can't imagine things have changed). You probably wouldn't notice there was an election until you turned on the TV. The rules governing the elections are the same as for elsewhere in Scotland and the UK; whoever gets the most votes wins. For the Scottish Parliament there is an additional complication. As well as voting for a member to represent your area you vote for a party, then additional MSPs are allocated so that overall the proportion of MSPs for each party reflects the proportion of votes for each party in this second vote. This is called "The Additional Member System". There are also MEPs - Members of the European Parliament, in Strasbourg. There are 8 such MEPs for the whole of Scotland and they are elected by a mechanism that only three people have ever understood - one of whom is dead, the second has gone mad, and the third has forgotten. Nobody has the faintest idea who any of the MEPs are, in fact after the last european election I was shocked to discover that I'd lost my seat - I'd been an MEP for 5 years and didn't know! Robert

Sounds to me like the 36th "Ward Healers" transported some of their voters to the 33rd in order to make that 104% "voter" turnout - our family lived in the 36th Ward from 1908 (starting with my G'pa & G'ma Drever/Driver, both born in Westray) until about 1970 - Seriously, is there a web site dealing with the voting system and regulations in Orkney? - Would the system in Orkney be the same as in the "South" and how does the new Scottish Parliament effect local voting system(s)? Jim D - Denver