I'm sure that would go over like a pregnant polevaulter with the locals. A task for a resident Orcadian. On Wednesday, April 21, 2004, at 10:58 AM, KJEMEM@aol.com wrote: > Stephen, > > You made such a good start at collecting the "lost" words, and with > your > interests I'm sure you'll be finding many more. Why don't you put > them in a book. > Let us know when its read--or just make it a free, online edition > that we > can all get to and to which you can always add. > > Karen > > > ==== ORCADIA Mailing List ==== > To unsubscribe from the Orcadia mailing list, send an e-mail with the > word > 'unsubscribe' in the message body to orcadia-l-request@rootsweb.com >

Thanks Jim. I bookmarked that neat little starter kit. Easier to find the words than it is to come up with the meaning! I guess if one were to glance back about eight hundred years, the Norse and the Scots would have to do a little inbreeding, or else have a war, and the result of the more pleasureable alternative would be a conflabulation of a language spoken by the resultant offspring. Imagine someone about seventy five years ago doing all the family research, and in passing it along, passed it along in a language none of us to this point can read or comprehend.It's like winning the draw car at the fall fair, and not getting the key. I appreciate the tip. Some new words. Tonight at supper if the salad is tasty, i might ask for a "Peedie" bit more. Perhaps some " Kirnmilk" and "Maet". My approach to conquering the interpretive task is, "he'll no win forrid that'll no luk forrid." Stephen On Wednesday, April 21, 2004, at 11:09 AM, CorseJG@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 4/21/04 6:59:58 PM, KJEMEM@aol.com writes: > > << Stephen, > > You made such a good start at collecting the "lost" words, and with > your > interests I'm sure you'll be finding many more. Why don't you put > them in a > book. > Let us know when its read--or just make it a free, online edition > that we > can all get to and to which you can always add. > > Karen >> > > While you are waiting for Stephen to start the book you might find the > "dictionary" of Westray/Orkney words helpful. > Try: http://www.westray-orkney.co.uk/home.html under Heritage. > > Jim C. > > > ==== ORCADIA Mailing List ==== > To unsubscribe from the Orcadia mailing list, send an e-mail with the > word > 'unsubscribe' in the message body to orcadia-l-request@rootsweb.com >

In a message dated 4/21/04 6:59:58 PM, KJEMEM@aol.com writes: << Stephen, You made such a good start at collecting the "lost" words, and with your interests I'm sure you'll be finding many more. Why don't you put them in a book. Let us know when its read--or just make it a free, online edition that we can all get to and to which you can always add. Karen >> While you are waiting for Stephen to start the book you might find the "dictionary" of Westray/Orkney words helpful. Try: http://www.westray-orkney.co.uk/home.html under Heritage. Jim C.

Stephen, You made such a good start at collecting the "lost" words, and with your interests I'm sure you'll be finding many more. Why don't you put them in a book. Let us know when its read--or just make it a free, online edition that we can all get to and to which you can always add. Karen

On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 19:57:40 -0700, stephen davie wrote: > This e-mail of yours goes into my Orkney file. Wish there was more > of the same. What a great book topic/opportunity for some > enthusiastic Orcadian. Erm. The opportunity has been taken..a number of times. The Orkney Norn - Hugh Marwick (out of print) The Orkney Wordbook - Gregor Lamb (out of print) Hid Kam intae Words - Gregor Lamb (out of print) The Orkney Dictionary - Gregor Lamb and Margaret Flaws (still available at http://www.orcadian.co.uk/orkneybooks) -- Sigurd

amazon.co.uk have a book called The Norn Language of Orkney and Shetland by Michael Barnes http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1898852294/qid=1082572667/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_8_1/202-7685164-0643827 http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1898852294/qid=1082572775/sr=8-2/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i2_xgl14/002-7523538-7439259?v=glance&s=books&n=507846 its short - only 72 pages - and costs £9.95 from amazon.co.uk and US$21.89 from amazon.com I've no idea if its any good or not - has anyone read it? Robert On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 12:16:12 +0100, Sigurd Towrie wrote: > > The Orkney Norn - Hugh Marwick (out of print) > The Orkney Wordbook - Gregor Lamb (out of print) > Hid Kam intae Words - Gregor Lamb (out of print) > The Orkney Dictionary - Gregor Lamb and Margaret Flaws (still available at http://www.orcadian.co.uk/orkneybooks) >

Sounds like a good idea to me too Karen. Kathy --- KJEMEM@aol.com wrote: > Stephen, > > You made such a good start at collecting the "lost" > words, and with your > interests I'm sure you'll be finding many more. Why > don't you put them in a book. > Let us know when its read--or just make it a free, > online edition that we > can all get to and to which you can always add. > > Karen > > > ==== ORCADIA Mailing List ==== > To unsubscribe from the Orcadia mailing list, send > an e-mail with the word > 'unsubscribe' in the message body to > orcadia-l-request@rootsweb.com > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25� http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash

"Erm" right back to you....and good mornin! And thank you. So, we have four titles of which three are out of print. In a restaurant herebouts they don't put stuff on the menu which is not available, because it would be precisely what the customer would want. So that leaves us with the Orkney Dic. And one over here might well wonder what span of time it would cover. For in many of the old documents I have tried to decipher, orthographic peculiarities muddy the already unclear waters. I am trying to finish what my old uncles and aunts gave up on years ago. There seems to be some strange variation therein which is consistent with spelling phonetically, with a large degree of variation. That is evident in names, for example, which seemed to be spelled differently oftentimes. Consider the common expat trying to read and comprehend "pays in Scatt butter two pispunds." three cowsworth of udal land" "of scatt malt six meills four and half settings". "4d land1/2-6merk makes the pennyland" . And this is after a wonderful person came to my rescue with pages of interpretation for which I am very grateful. I have been lucky to have that generous interpretation forwarded. That makes the remaining mystery words more frustrating. Thanks for providing the book titles. I guess they aren't going to grease up the printing machine and bang out a few copies of books "out of print" so some offshore affectionado can try to decode old lore documents. And I have asked them if the Orkney Dic goes back to the 1500's, for example, where the language is difficult to read at all. I can't discern whether some of the words denote simple colloquialism, or rather some blend of languages perhaps rooted in Norway. Who knows. You know, Sigurd, it is true that to try to pry open this interpretive door has been difficult and not just for me thank goodness, confessing fully that I am no historian, scholar or researcher. My relatives got stuck in the same mud while over there in the early sixties. This has been going on since Moby Dick was a minnow. The "foxfire" series we spoke of which is from the Appalachian Mountains and the Smokies, is an example of how a culture and it's linguistic oddities are put down in a form that an average, non-scholarly person can read, comprehend and most importantly enjoy. Trying to unlock this stuff has been like trying to talk a roving Aborigine out of his boomerang. For whatever reason, it seems that it "taint" easy, and the keys to it all are locked up tighter than a boar's butt in fly time. I have purchased some books from there that the schools were finished with. The saga was great, and of course available here. Other stuff spoke to the absence of trees in Orkney and therefore paper....that is to say they were sparse at best, and cheap to mail out for sure. Over here we would call them pamphlets. So we will see what seems to be the last available interpretive book has to offer. I'd like to testfire that Orkney dic by sending out ten of the befuddling strings of letters that I can't decode, and see if the book lists any of them. I 'd bet a moose antler to a bullfrog that I'd still be in the dark. Thanks for the info. By the way, some of your recent photos posted were most enjoyable and truly appreciated. I mostly enjoy the eclectic assembly of lost Orcadians from around the world that console each other on this site, while feasting on the great information you provide. Maybe locking up some of the language keeps the mystery of Orkney alive. I am finally and irreversibly convinced that you actually do live in Orkney, and are not living in a penthouse on Fifth Avenue in New York City. Gosh, and a Borwick to boot! Yours AYE.....Stephen Davie On Wednesday, April 21, 2004, at 04:16 AM, Sigurd Towrie wrote: > On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 19:57:40 -0700, stephen davie wrote: > >> This e-mail of yours goes into my Orkney file. Wish there was more >> of the same. What a great book topic/opportunity for some >> enthusiastic Orcadian. > > Erm. The opportunity has been taken..a number of times. > > The Orkney Norn - Hugh Marwick (out of print) > The Orkney Wordbook - Gregor Lamb (out of print) > Hid Kam intae Words - Gregor Lamb (out of print) > The Orkney Dictionary - Gregor Lamb and Margaret Flaws (still > available at http://www.orcadian.co.uk/orkneybooks) > > -- > Sigurd > > > > > > ==== ORCADIA Mailing List ==== > To unsubscribe from the Orcadia mailing list, send an e-mail with the > word > 'unsubscribe' in the message body to orcadia-l-request@rootsweb.com >

This reminds me of the thread I started last month about plans to republish "The Orkney Norn". I emailed Brinnovin publishing, but still have not received any reply. Perhaps if others that are interested in a copy would email as well, we could get an answer. Does the Orcadian bookshop have any contact with the publisher? Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sigurd Towrie" <sigurd@orkneyjar.com> To: <ORCADIA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, 21 April, 2004 6:16 AM Subject: Re: [<orcadia>] Radio Orkney "tell me more" > On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 19:57:40 -0700, stephen davie wrote: > > > This e-mail of yours goes into my Orkney file. Wish there was more > > of the same. What a great book topic/opportunity for some > > enthusiastic Orcadian. > > Erm. The opportunity has been taken..a number of times. > > The Orkney Norn - Hugh Marwick (out of print) > The Orkney Wordbook - Gregor Lamb (out of print) > Hid Kam intae Words - Gregor Lamb (out of print) > The Orkney Dictionary - Gregor Lamb and Margaret Flaws (still available at http://www.orcadian.co.uk/orkneybooks) > > -- > Sigurd > > > > > > ==== ORCADIA Mailing List ==== > To unsubscribe from the Orcadia mailing list, send an e-mail with the word > 'unsubscribe' in the message body to orcadia-l-request@rootsweb.com >

Crannogs (fascinating) - and coincidently i have just read the latest May/June 2004 issue of the Scottish Islands Explorer magazine's article on "The Scottish Crannog Centre" on Loch Tay (under title of Island Places). And - crannogs also mentioned in another article, same issue, "Set in the Silvery Tay" about the islands on the River Tay.... Not about Orkney, i know, but linking with the thread about crannogs (delightful name - and did i mention they were fascinating...?(!)) Fiona York Uk _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself with cool new emoticons http://www.msn.co.uk/specials/myemo

Hey Robert, you may have just written the intro to the Orcadian Foxfire equivalent. I knew what a byre was, but peddie I knew not. So before I set off to "swadge" (cool!) for the evening, I just want to say thanks for giving us a peek at a few expressions. It would be nice to have more of this stuff written down, to keep "abune" my current level of ignorance on this linguistic intrigue. This e-mail of yours goes into my Orkney file. Wish there was more of the same. What a great book topic/opportunity for some enthusiastic Orcadian. Thanks.....Stephen On Tuesday, April 20, 2004, at 02:20 PM, robert@scarth.net wrote: > The relationship between language and culture (and environment) is a > fascinating topic, but I think when Judy says " language is the > culture > keeper" she has it only half right. Yes the culture is affected by the > language, (if the language dies then the culture is at least > irreversibly changed). But the language is also a reflection of the > culture, and as the culture changes so does the language - just think > of > the phrase "to make love", and imagine the shock of one of Jane > Austen's heroines on discovering what it now means. > Among the Orcadian words that are still alive for me are (see below > for definitions): > 1) kye, quoy, stot, wither, stray, stook, peddie, abune > 2) to beat fluex, to swadge, to skurt, to hint (tatties or stones), > to dell, delling knife, tusker > The first group are Orcadian words with a direct English equivalent, > but where my first choice would be for the Orcadian word. The second > group are words with no direct English equivalent, and are roughly > ordered according to how familiar a non-Orcadian English speaker would > find the concept. > These words are still alive for me because they express concepts that > exist in my world of experience. However a word like "sholt" (a pony), > which while I know what it means isn't a live word for mean because it > doesn't express something that exists in my world of experience. Of > course there are still ponies, and I know what they look like and > stuff but but I have little need to use the word, and when I say > "pony" I > do not mean the same as when my grandfather said "sholt"; consider and > compare "horsy-folk" and "horseman", they have completely different > meanings, because they exist in a different cultural context. > > This is the problem I have when I try and use dialect words more > (apart from the fact that I live in Zurich and people would look at me > funny if I said "aye-aye beuy, whit like?"): most of the concepts I > want to express are not expressible in Orcadian, and most of what I > can > express in Orcadian is not relevant to my life. What are the Orcadian > words for computer, internet, stock exchange, television, tram, > referendum, or supermarket? How would we discuss Iraq in Orcadian? > there are no words for Shi'i, Sunni, insurgent, terrorist, or > international law. Of course we could invent words for these concepts > but what would the point be? As the world becomes more open, travel > easier, and cultures come together (which I firmly believe is a Good > Thing) the concepts which people need to describe their world converge > and so the language they use becomes more similar, even if the > vocabulary and grammar remain distinct. Of course the convergence will > never > be complete, as people within an area will always have locally > specific concepts they need to communicate to each other; nobody > outside > Marwick will ever need to know what "The Tud" is. > > So yes, while we should record the language of today, and as much of > that of the past as we can, we must remember that to freeze language > means to freeze culture and society and that is a Bad Thing. I'm very > glad indeed that while I can understand that in the past the seasons > were much more important and people grew bere because they had to, I > don't really understand what it was like, and what they really meant > when they spoke about it because I've never inhabited their world and > so their language is foreign to me. > > I don't fully understand what you mean Judy when you say: > "My theory is that it is 'not necessary' to make accessible to the > whole world the specifics of a language, and that by not doing so, one > preserves the culture 'from' the rest of this raging world out here. > This is the Native American position taken by the Ogallala Sioux, > Pawnee, Pima, Hopi, Navaho and some of the eastern tribes as well." > > but I'm very glad that nobody decided to "preserve" Orcadian culture > from the outside world, and so condemned me and other Orcadians to a > life of stunted development and constrained choice. > > > Robert > > > 1) kye = cattle, quoy = heifer (young cow), stot = steer, wither = > castrated male sheep, stray = barley or oat straw, stook = stack of > hay > or straw, or bales of hay or straw, peddie = little, abune = above > 2) to beat fleux = to flap your arms about and sort of hugging > yourself in an effort to keep warm > to swadge = to relax after a meal > to skurt = to throw straw underneath an animal as bedding > to hint = to pick off the ground, and gather together > to dell = to remove the top most section (which does not contain > useable peat) from a peat bank. > delling knife = a large dog-leg shaped knife used for delling. The > blade is about 2-3 feet in length. > tusker = a tool used for cutting peat > > > > On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 11:55:38 -0400, "Judy" wrote: > >> >> Stephan, Kathy, Sigurd et al: >> Good conversation here! Wonderful sounds in the poem >> I quoted below! As a poet I am intrigued by what I am >> imagining are the 'sounds' of the Orkney/Scots (?) language. >> I'm new at this, so please be patient. >> And Kathy as you say, language is the culture keeper. The >> Native American poets I know are very busy trying to decipher, >> write down and keep for the generations yet to come, their >> language groups and their poetry reflects the intensity and >> integrity of their ceremonies and culture. >> So, the lovely little poem written and translated below >> (thanks Sigurd)explains volumes about: importance of seasons, >> importance of food and types of food grown. If one does not >> "fill one's belly when the sun leaves", one has a hard winter >> ahead--beautiful phrase to describe the stark reality. Even >> beginning the poem with "We've had to cultivate turnips..." >> lends the image of doing something for survival that one >> might not want to do, but does anyhow-- >> Back to language and cultures. My theory is that it is 'not >> necessary' to make accessible to the whole world the specifics >> of a language, and that by not doing so, one preserves the culture >> 'from' the rest of this raging world out here. This is the Native >> American position taken by the Ogallala Sioux, Pawnee, Pima, Hopi, >> Navaho and some of the eastern tribes as well. >> Fascinating to learn that the French/Orkney/Native American >> trading in Canada spawned a language/dialect! Guess that would >> have to happen because people would need to talk in order to >> trade effectively. My, aren't we humans wonderfully inventive? >> I am finding The Orkneyinga fascinating and am happy to >> read it in English, however, hearing the ancient words spoken >> would convey another meaning, something hidden in sound that >> I'm sure is missing in the translation, but then translation suffers >> this kind of slippage. >> Hadn't heard that "Orcadians are overly 'inward', but as I >> say, I am new at this. If a culture is 'overly inward', there is >> mostly likely a reason for it. Again, the Native American cultures >> that I am privy to, are also 'overly inward' and for good reason. >> And then there is the problem of the papers you refer to being >> kept in Kirkwall. Of course, information should be available in >> library form for everyone and I do not know about the translation >> of texts issue from the Orcadian viewpoint, but I see from your >> writing, Stephen, that it is an issue. >> As I see it, the stone circles and archaeological sites 'speak' >> without spoken language on one level anyhow very eloquently. >> (And I've only seen pictures--thanks Sigurd.) The conundrum >> seems to be, if a culture invites the rest of the world, how to >> keep nasty guests from the table? >> Judy >> > > > ==== ORCADIA Mailing List ==== > To unsubscribe from the Orcadia mailing list, send an e-mail with the > word > 'unsubscribe' in the message body to orcadia-l-request@rootsweb.com >

The nice convenient thing about any Island culture, is that there is an element of control as to who comes and goes. In that sense, Orkney like Newfoundland or New Zealand has a leg up on controlling "invaders" and "diluters" of cultural peculiarities. I too am interested in native north american culture. I am proud of my recently fleshed out Orcadian HBC explorer roots, but I must confess that the native stuff is intriguing. Perhaps because in part "I are one". My Grandmother was native. But more revealing, there is a whole society of Orkney/Cree people who's families were neatly recorded by the employer, the Hudson's Bay Company. The Cree language is like listening to music, sung melodically on the lips of those still living the good life on the Bay. They teach their tongue in school, as do the Six Nations, Algonquins, and Ojibways near here. Back when, all these tribes had Orcadian sons-in law. Orcadians and Crees were a solid combination...a natural match so to speak, like fish and chips or beans and rice. I have accumulated some old HBC artifacts. One item I have two of, is a Fort Albany trade medallion dated 1733. I think Joseph Isbister was the factor there in that time frame. His son Alexander, a half breed Cree/Orcadian, returned to England, got a degree in law, and used his unique position in British society as a novelty from over here, to better the relationships between Metis HBC employees and the company. The world shrinks, but it is still a fascinating place is you nose around. On Tuesday, April 20, 2004, at 08:55 AM, Judy wrote: > Stephan, Kathy, Sigurd et al: > Good conversation here! Wonderful sounds in the poem > I quoted below! As a poet I am intrigued by what I am > imagining are the 'sounds' of the Orkney/Scots (?) language. > I'm new at this, so please be patient. > And Kathy as you say, language is the culture keeper. The > Native American poets I know are very busy trying to decipher, > write down and keep for the generations yet to come, their > language groups and their poetry reflects the intensity and > integrity of their ceremonies and culture. > So, the lovely little poem written and translated below > (thanks Sigurd)explains volumes about: importance of seasons, > importance of food and types of food grown. If one does not > "fill one's belly when the sun leaves", one has a hard winter > ahead--beautiful phrase to describe the stark reality. Even > beginning the poem with "We've had to cultivate turnips..." > lends the image of doing something for survival that one > might not want to do, but does anyhow-- > Back to language and cultures. My theory is that it is 'not > necessary' to make accessible to the whole world the specifics > of a language, and that by not doing so, one preserves the culture > 'from' the rest of this raging world out here. This is the Native > American position taken by the Ogallala Sioux, Pawnee, Pima, Hopi, > Navaho and some of the eastern tribes as well. > Fascinating to learn that the French/Orkney/Native American > trading in Canada spawned a language/dialect! Guess that would > have to happen because people would need to talk in order to > trade effectively. My, aren't we humans wonderfully inventive? > I am finding The Orkneyinga fascinating and am happy to > read it in English, however, hearing the ancient words spoken > would convey another meaning, something hidden in sound that > I'm sure is missing in the translation, but then translation suffers > this kind of slippage. > Hadn't heard that "Orcadians are overly 'inward', but as I > say, I am new at this. If a culture is 'overly inward', there is > mostly likely a reason for it. Again, the Native American cultures > that I am privy to, are also 'overly inward' and for good reason. > And then there is the problem of the papers you refer to being > kept in Kirkwall. Of course, information should be available in > library form for everyone and I do not know about the translation > of texts issue from the Orcadian viewpoint, but I see from your > writing, Stephen, that it is an issue. > As I see it, the stone circles and archaeological sites 'speak' > without spoken language on one level anyhow very eloquently. > (And I've only seen pictures--thanks Sigurd.) The conundrum > seems to be, if a culture invites the rest of the world, how to > keep nasty guests from the table? > Judy > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- >>> From: David Palmquist [mailto:plmquist@uniserve.com] >>> Sent: 21 September 2000 03:08 >> >>> Fegs beuy wur hin tae rise neeps fur minny a lang eer. Putty oan da > bondi >>>> whaur dudno feull 'is belkie wi neep maet whan da sun geed awiy >>> in da dark >>>> wis apon is..... >> >>> Sigurd, please offer a translation; I'm sure what you >>> wrote is a >>> fascinating, but it's beyond me. >> >> Fairly simple really. >> >> Gracious, we've had to cultivate turnips for many years. Pity an >> farmer > who >> didn't fill his belly with turnips when the sun left (summer went) >> and the >> dark (winter) was on us.... > > Always a difficulty when a bodie writes Scots as phonetically as is > possible > with the roman alphabet. > >> > > for us non Scots speakers about Orkney daily life concerns. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: stephen davie > To: ORCADIA-L@rootsweb.com > Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 1:14 PM > Subject: Re: [<orcadia>] Radio Orkney "tell me more" > > > I am sincerely gratified to learn that others in the world , besides > this soul, experience some frustrations and problems trying to > interpret with accuracy old Orkney dialects. They poses a truly > obnoxious barrier for anyone who seriously tries to learn about their > former culture or family from there, by searching very old documents > for example. Native languages in North America, crude as they are, > are > all easily deciphered with the eagerness to help cheerfully extended > by > people living in those cultures. The same is true for variant twists > in > French and Spanish which are a North American feature from Louisianna > to Quebec to Mexico and Texas. Lots of support material and eager > helping hands. Must be a North American pioneer trait, like that > great, > warm American Southern Hospitality. > > Fur traders from Orkney and France and elsewhere developed one mixed > language with which they could communicate with the Cree Indians in > the > Hudson's Bay basin. Even that clever, basic blend of tongues has > resulted in a book and a dictionary to assist scholars and > historians. > One poor soul in her late eighties or nineties, a native living in > Alaska, is the last living person who knows her native tongue. A > university with assistance has compiled a description and dictionary > of > that language, eager to keep it alive after her passing. Neat! > > I suppose if one can't get interpreted, these precious old Orcadian > documents, then we are bound to rely on the testimony of living > amateur > historians. Pity. For access denied by any means is in direct > conflict with the very purpose of keeping them and maintaining a > library in Kirkwall. Opening a book is opening the mind. Perhaps > this > is why Orkneyinga Saga was published in many languages. > > The repeated expression that Orcadians are overly "inward", often > printed in books I have read, appears to have deep root. > > Spring is here and the ice is melting. I'll take this Orkney > frustration and my fishing line, to the trout waters. > > Stephen >> http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/ORCADIA/2000-09/0969628692 >> RootsWeb: ORCADIA-L Re: Fegs beuy what??? RE: [ORCADIA] Geo.Mackay ... >> - >> ORCADIA-L Archives. From: "Nick-Durie" <Nick-Durie@aladdinscave.net> >> Subject: Re: >> Fegs beuy what??? ... > S. > >. This thread: Fegs beuy what??? ... >> http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/ORCADIA/2000-09/0969639172 >> >> Karen >> >> >> ==== ORCADIA Mailing List ==== >> To unsubscribe from the Orcadia mailing list, send an e-mail with the >> word >> 'unsubscribe' in the message body to orcadia-l-request@rootsweb.com >> > > > ==== ORCADIA Mailing List ==== > To unsubscribe from the Orcadia mailing list, send an e-mail with > the word > 'unsubscribe' in the message body to orcadia-l-request@rootsweb.com > > > > ==== ORCADIA Mailing List ==== > To unsubscribe from the Orcadia mailing list, send an e-mail with the > word > 'unsubscribe' in the message body to orcadia-l-request@rootsweb.com >

Yep, the food alone would be of interest. I was very blessed to receive some bere ground up as flour from a very nice Orcadian who sent it to me in the mail. It was a real surprise that he would send this, along with original recipes. He is a great ambassador for Orkney, and his flour is the best. Makes great biscuits and bannock. Wonderful fellow. On Tuesday, April 20, 2004, at 08:16 AM, k l wrote: > I have some of those books. They are priceless. > Would love to see that kind of project taken on in > Orkney!!. > Kathy > > > > >> One of my favourite haunts is the Mountains in >> North Carolina and >> Tennessee. The culture there was beautifully >> embraced by a book written >> by college kids called "Foxfire." It is old lore >> stuff with photos of >> mountain people of senior age, who pass along food >> recipes, >> banjo-making skills, corn pone tricks, and all sorts >> of things right >> down to making good smoked ham. Now there are about >> 20 of the Foxfire >> series. Those original students passed it on! There >> has to be a lesson >> to be learned from all this. >> > > >>> ==== ORCADIA Mailing List ==== >>> To unsubscribe from the Orcadia mailing list, send >> an e-mail with the >>> word >>> 'unsubscribe' in the message body to >> orcadia-l-request@rootsweb.com >>> >> >> >> >> ==== ORCADIA Mailing List ==== >> To unsubscribe from the Orcadia mailing list, send >> an e-mail with the word >> 'unsubscribe' in the message body to >> orcadia-l-request@rootsweb.com >> > > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25¢ > http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash > > > ==== ORCADIA Mailing List ==== > To unsubscribe from the Orcadia mailing list, send an e-mail with the > word > 'unsubscribe' in the message body to orcadia-l-request@rootsweb.com >

The relationship between language and culture (and environment) is a fascinating topic, but I think when Judy says " language is the culture keeper" she has it only half right. Yes the culture is affected by the language, (if the language dies then the culture is at least irreversibly changed). But the language is also a reflection of the culture, and as the culture changes so does the language - just think of the phrase "to make love", and imagine the shock of one of Jane Austen's heroines on discovering what it now means. Among the Orcadian words that are still alive for me are (see below for definitions): 1) kye, quoy, stot, wither, stray, stook, peddie, abune 2) to beat fluex, to swadge, to skurt, to hint (tatties or stones), to dell, delling knife, tusker The first group are Orcadian words with a direct English equivalent, but where my first choice would be for the Orcadian word. The second group are words with no direct English equivalent, and are roughly ordered according to how familiar a non-Orcadian English speaker would find the concept. These words are still alive for me because they express concepts that exist in my world of experience. However a word like "sholt" (a pony), which while I know what it means isn't a live word for mean because it doesn't express something that exists in my world of experience. Of course there are still ponies, and I know what they look like and stuff but but I have little need to use the word, and when I say "pony" I do not mean the same as when my grandfather said "sholt"; consider and compare "horsy-folk" and "horseman", they have completely different meanings, because they exist in a different cultural context. This is the problem I have when I try and use dialect words more (apart from the fact that I live in Zurich and people would look at me funny if I said "aye-aye beuy, whit like?"): most of the concepts I want to express are not expressible in Orcadian, and most of what I can express in Orcadian is not relevant to my life. What are the Orcadian words for computer, internet, stock exchange, television, tram, referendum, or supermarket? How would we discuss Iraq in Orcadian? there are no words for Shi'i, Sunni, insurgent, terrorist, or international law. Of course we could invent words for these concepts but what would the point be? As the world becomes more open, travel easier, and cultures come together (which I firmly believe is a Good Thing) the concepts which people need to describe their world converge and so the language they use becomes more similar, even if the vocabulary and grammar remain distinct. Of course the convergence will never be complete, as people within an area will always have locally specific concepts they need to communicate to each other; nobody outside Marwick will ever need to know what "The Tud" is. So yes, while we should record the language of today, and as much of that of the past as we can, we must remember that to freeze language means to freeze culture and society and that is a Bad Thing. I'm very glad indeed that while I can understand that in the past the seasons were much more important and people grew bere because they had to, I don't really understand what it was like, and what they really meant when they spoke about it because I've never inhabited their world and so their language is foreign to me. I don't fully understand what you mean Judy when you say: "My theory is that it is 'not necessary' to make accessible to the whole world the specifics of a language, and that by not doing so, one preserves the culture 'from' the rest of this raging world out here. This is the Native American position taken by the Ogallala Sioux, Pawnee, Pima, Hopi, Navaho and some of the eastern tribes as well." but I'm very glad that nobody decided to "preserve" Orcadian culture from the outside world, and so condemned me and other Orcadians to a life of stunted development and constrained choice. Robert 1) kye = cattle, quoy = heifer (young cow), stot = steer, wither = castrated male sheep, stray = barley or oat straw, stook = stack of hay or straw, or bales of hay or straw, peddie = little, abune = above 2) to beat fleux = to flap your arms about and sort of hugging yourself in an effort to keep warm to swadge = to relax after a meal to skurt = to throw straw underneath an animal as bedding to hint = to pick off the ground, and gather together to dell = to remove the top most section (which does not contain useable peat) from a peat bank. delling knife = a large dog-leg shaped knife used for delling. The blade is about 2-3 feet in length. tusker = a tool used for cutting peat On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 11:55:38 -0400, "Judy" wrote: > > Stephan, Kathy, Sigurd et al: > Good conversation here! Wonderful sounds in the poem > I quoted below! As a poet I am intrigued by what I am > imagining are the 'sounds' of the Orkney/Scots (?) language. > I'm new at this, so please be patient. > And Kathy as you say, language is the culture keeper. The > Native American poets I know are very busy trying to decipher, > write down and keep for the generations yet to come, their > language groups and their poetry reflects the intensity and > integrity of their ceremonies and culture. > So, the lovely little poem written and translated below > (thanks Sigurd)explains volumes about: importance of seasons, > importance of food and types of food grown. If one does not > "fill one's belly when the sun leaves", one has a hard winter > ahead--beautiful phrase to describe the stark reality. Even > beginning the poem with "We've had to cultivate turnips..." > lends the image of doing something for survival that one > might not want to do, but does anyhow-- > Back to language and cultures. My theory is that it is 'not > necessary' to make accessible to the whole world the specifics > of a language, and that by not doing so, one preserves the culture > 'from' the rest of this raging world out here. This is the Native > American position taken by the Ogallala Sioux, Pawnee, Pima, Hopi, > Navaho and some of the eastern tribes as well. > Fascinating to learn that the French/Orkney/Native American > trading in Canada spawned a language/dialect! Guess that would > have to happen because people would need to talk in order to > trade effectively. My, aren't we humans wonderfully inventive? > I am finding The Orkneyinga fascinating and am happy to > read it in English, however, hearing the ancient words spoken > would convey another meaning, something hidden in sound that > I'm sure is missing in the translation, but then translation suffers > this kind of slippage. > Hadn't heard that "Orcadians are overly 'inward', but as I > say, I am new at this. If a culture is 'overly inward', there is > mostly likely a reason for it. Again, the Native American cultures > that I am privy to, are also 'overly inward' and for good reason. > And then there is the problem of the papers you refer to being > kept in Kirkwall. Of course, information should be available in > library form for everyone and I do not know about the translation > of texts issue from the Orcadian viewpoint, but I see from your > writing, Stephen, that it is an issue. > As I see it, the stone circles and archaeological sites 'speak' > without spoken language on one level anyhow very eloquently. > (And I've only seen pictures--thanks Sigurd.) The conundrum > seems to be, if a culture invites the rest of the world, how to > keep nasty guests from the table? > Judy >

I too have some Native roots. Not Cree though, Cherokee and Shawnee. Much of my spirituality comes from the Native view. I remember when I visited Maeshowe and Scara Brae, such a strong connection I felt to the Southwest area of Canyon De Chelly and the Anasazi peoples. I kept being reminded of the kivas there. They are thousands of years apart, but like the big Sequoias in Scotland and Northwest America, they seem to join roots and hands over distance and time in the center of the Earth. I was thrilled to see some of the Native artifacts in the Stromness museum and learn of the Hudson Bay connection. Also pleased with the integrity the Orcadians treated the Native peoples. What a concept, respect and honesty. Judy, the poem you sent is simple and touching. Thanks Kathy --- stephen davie <stephen.davie@sympatico.ca> wrote: > The nice convenient thing about any Island culture, > is that there is an > element of control as to who comes and goes. In that > sense, Orkney like > Newfoundland or New Zealand has a leg up on > controlling "invaders" and > "diluters" of cultural peculiarities. > > I too am interested in native north american > culture. I am proud of my > recently fleshed out Orcadian HBC explorer roots, > but I must confess > that the native stuff is intriguing. Perhaps because > in part "I are > one". My Grandmother was native. But more revealing, > there is a whole > society of Orkney/Cree people who's families were > neatly recorded by > the employer, the Hudson's Bay Company. The Cree > language is like > listening to music, sung melodically on the lips of > those still living > the good life on the Bay. They teach their tongue in > school, as do the > Six Nations, Algonquins, and Ojibways near here. > Back when, all these > tribes had Orcadian sons-in law. Orcadians and Crees > were a solid > combination...a natural match so to speak, like fish > and chips or beans > and rice. > > I have accumulated some old HBC artifacts. One item > I have two of, is a > Fort Albany trade medallion dated 1733. I think > Joseph Isbister was the > factor there in that time frame. His son Alexander, > a half breed > Cree/Orcadian, returned to England, got a degree in > law, and used his > unique position in British society as a novelty from > over here, to > better the relationships between Metis HBC employees > and the company. > > The world shrinks, but it is still a fascinating > place is you nose > around. > On Tuesday, April 20, 2004, at 08:55 AM, Judy wrote: > > > Stephan, Kathy, Sigurd et al: > > Good conversation here! Wonderful sounds in > the poem > > I quoted below! As a poet I am intrigued by what > I am > > imagining are the 'sounds' of the Orkney/Scots (?) > language. > > I'm new at this, so please be patient. > > And Kathy as you say, language is the culture > keeper. The > > Native American poets I know are very busy trying > to decipher, > > write down and keep for the generations yet to > come, their > > language groups and their poetry reflects the > intensity and > > integrity of their ceremonies and culture. > > So, the lovely little poem written and > translated below > > (thanks Sigurd)explains volumes about: importance > of seasons, > > importance of food and types of food grown. If one > does not > > "fill one's belly when the sun leaves", one has a > hard winter > > ahead--beautiful phrase to describe the stark > reality. Even > > beginning the poem with "We've had to cultivate > turnips..." > > lends the image of doing something for survival > that one > > might not want to do, but does anyhow-- > > Back to language and cultures. My theory is > that it is 'not > > necessary' to make accessible to the whole world > the specifics > > of a language, and that by not doing so, one > preserves the culture > > 'from' the rest of this raging world out here. > This is the Native > > American position taken by the Ogallala Sioux, > Pawnee, Pima, Hopi, > > Navaho and some of the eastern tribes as well. > > Fascinating to learn that the > French/Orkney/Native American > > trading in Canada spawned a language/dialect! > Guess that would > > have to happen because people would need to talk > in order to > > trade effectively. My, aren't we humans > wonderfully inventive? > > I am finding The Orkneyinga fascinating and > am happy to > > read it in English, however, hearing the ancient > words spoken > > would convey another meaning, something hidden in > sound that > > I'm sure is missing in the translation, but then > translation suffers > > this kind of slippage. > > Hadn't heard that "Orcadians are overly > 'inward', but as I > > say, I am new at this. If a culture is 'overly > inward', there is > > mostly likely a reason for it. Again, the Native > American cultures > > that I am privy to, are also 'overly inward' and > for good reason. > > And then there is the problem of the papers you > refer to being > > kept in Kirkwall. Of course, information should > be available in > > library form for everyone and I do not know about > the translation > > of texts issue from the Orcadian viewpoint, but I > see from your > > writing, Stephen, that it is an issue. > > As I see it, the stone circles and > archaeological sites 'speak' > > without spoken language on one level anyhow very > eloquently. > > (And I've only seen pictures--thanks Sigurd.) The > conundrum > > seems to be, if a culture invites the rest of the > world, how to > > keep nasty guests from the table? > > Judy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > >>> From: David Palmquist > [mailto:plmquist@uniserve.com] > >>> Sent: 21 September 2000 03:08 > >> > >>> Fegs beuy wur hin tae rise neeps fur minny a > lang eer. Putty oan da > > bondi > >>>> whaur dudno feull 'is belkie wi neep maet whan > da sun geed awiy > >>> in da dark > >>>> wis apon is..... > >> > >>> Sigurd, please offer a translation; I'm sure > what you > >>> wrote is a > >>> fascinating, but it's beyond me. > >> > >> Fairly simple really. > >> > >> Gracious, we've had to cultivate turnips for many > years. Pity an > >> farmer > > who > >> didn't fill his belly with turnips when the sun > left (summer went) > >> and the > >> dark (winter) was on us.... > > > > Always a difficulty when a bodie writes Scots as > phonetically as is > > possible > > with the roman alphabet. > > > >> > > > > for us non Scots speakers about Orkney daily life > concerns. > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: stephen davie > > To: ORCADIA-L@rootsweb.com > > Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 1:14 PM > > Subject: Re: [<orcadia>] Radio Orkney "tell me > more" > > > > > > I am sincerely gratified to learn that others in > the world , besides > > this soul, experience some frustrations and > problems trying to > > interpret with accuracy old Orkney dialects. > They poses a truly > > obnoxious barrier for anyone who seriously tries > to === message truncated === __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25� http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash

I remember the discussions about bannock last year and saved some of those. Don't know if I'll ever try making it, but it sounded very good. There is som much about Orkney that is unique and specila that I fell I've just begun to scratch the surface. I look do so look forward to m trip out htere next month. Kathy --- stephen davie <stephen.davie@sympatico.ca> wrote: > Yep, the food alone would be of interest. I was very > blessed to receive > some bere ground up as flour from a very nice > Orcadian who sent it to > me in the mail. It was a real surprise that he would > send this, along > with original recipes. He is a great ambassador for > Orkney, and his > flour is the best. Makes great biscuits and bannock. > Wonderful fellow. > On Tuesday, April 20, 2004, at 08:16 AM, k l wrote: > > > I have some of those books. They are priceless. > > Would love to see that kind of project taken on in > > Orkney!!. > > Kathy > > > > > > > > > >> One of my favourite haunts is the Mountains in > >> North Carolina and > >> Tennessee. The culture there was beautifully > >> embraced by a book written > >> by college kids called "Foxfire." It is old lore > >> stuff with photos of > >> mountain people of senior age, who pass along > food > >> recipes, > >> banjo-making skills, corn pone tricks, and all > sorts > >> of things right > >> down to making good smoked ham. Now there are > about > >> 20 of the Foxfire > >> series. Those original students passed it on! > There > >> has to be a lesson > >> to be learned from all this. >> > > > >>> ==== ORCADIA Mailing List ==== > >>> To unsubscribe from the Orcadia mailing list, > send > >> an e-mail with the > >>> word > >>> 'unsubscribe' in the message body to > >> orcadia-l-request@rootsweb.com > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> ==== ORCADIA Mailing List ==== > >> To unsubscribe from the Orcadia mailing list, > send > >> an e-mail with the word > >> 'unsubscribe' in the message body to > >> orcadia-l-request@rootsweb.com > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for > 25� > > http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash > > > > > > ==== ORCADIA Mailing List ==== > > To unsubscribe from the Orcadia mailing list, send > an e-mail with the > > word > > 'unsubscribe' in the message body to > orcadia-l-request@rootsweb.com > > > > > > ==== ORCADIA Mailing List ==== > To unsubscribe from the Orcadia mailing list, send > an e-mail with the word > 'unsubscribe' in the message body to > orcadia-l-request@rootsweb.com > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25� http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash

Stephan, Kathy, Sigurd et al: Good conversation here! Wonderful sounds in the poem I quoted below! As a poet I am intrigued by what I am imagining are the 'sounds' of the Orkney/Scots (?) language. I'm new at this, so please be patient. And Kathy as you say, language is the culture keeper. The Native American poets I know are very busy trying to decipher, write down and keep for the generations yet to come, their language groups and their poetry reflects the intensity and integrity of their ceremonies and culture. So, the lovely little poem written and translated below (thanks Sigurd)explains volumes about: importance of seasons, importance of food and types of food grown. If one does not "fill one's belly when the sun leaves", one has a hard winter ahead--beautiful phrase to describe the stark reality. Even beginning the poem with "We've had to cultivate turnips..." lends the image of doing something for survival that one might not want to do, but does anyhow-- Back to language and cultures. My theory is that it is 'not necessary' to make accessible to the whole world the specifics of a language, and that by not doing so, one preserves the culture 'from' the rest of this raging world out here. This is the Native American position taken by the Ogallala Sioux, Pawnee, Pima, Hopi, Navaho and some of the eastern tribes as well. Fascinating to learn that the French/Orkney/Native American trading in Canada spawned a language/dialect! Guess that would have to happen because people would need to talk in order to trade effectively. My, aren't we humans wonderfully inventive? I am finding The Orkneyinga fascinating and am happy to read it in English, however, hearing the ancient words spoken would convey another meaning, something hidden in sound that I'm sure is missing in the translation, but then translation suffers this kind of slippage. Hadn't heard that "Orcadians are overly 'inward', but as I say, I am new at this. If a culture is 'overly inward', there is mostly likely a reason for it. Again, the Native American cultures that I am privy to, are also 'overly inward' and for good reason. And then there is the problem of the papers you refer to being kept in Kirkwall. Of course, information should be available in library form for everyone and I do not know about the translation of texts issue from the Orcadian viewpoint, but I see from your writing, Stephen, that it is an issue. As I see it, the stone circles and archaeological sites 'speak' without spoken language on one level anyhow very eloquently. (And I've only seen pictures--thanks Sigurd.) The conundrum seems to be, if a culture invites the rest of the world, how to keep nasty guests from the table? Judy -----Original Message----- > > From: David Palmquist [mailto:plmquist@uniserve.com] > > Sent: 21 September 2000 03:08 > > > Fegs beuy wur hin tae rise neeps fur minny a lang eer. Putty oan da bondi > > >whaur dudno feull 'is belkie wi neep maet whan da sun geed awiy > > in da dark > > >wis apon is..... > > > Sigurd, please offer a translation; I'm sure what you > > wrote is a > > fascinating, but it's beyond me. > > Fairly simple really. > > Gracious, we've had to cultivate turnips for many years. Pity an farmer who > didn't fill his belly with turnips when the sun left (summer went) and the > dark (winter) was on us.... Always a difficulty when a bodie writes Scots as phonetically as is possible with the roman alphabet. > for us non Scots speakers about Orkney daily life concerns. ----- Original Message ----- From: stephen davie To: ORCADIA-L@rootsweb.com Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 1:14 PM Subject: Re: [<orcadia>] Radio Orkney "tell me more" I am sincerely gratified to learn that others in the world , besides this soul, experience some frustrations and problems trying to interpret with accuracy old Orkney dialects. They poses a truly obnoxious barrier for anyone who seriously tries to learn about their former culture or family from there, by searching very old documents for example. Native languages in North America, crude as they are, are all easily deciphered with the eagerness to help cheerfully extended by people living in those cultures. The same is true for variant twists in French and Spanish which are a North American feature from Louisianna to Quebec to Mexico and Texas. Lots of support material and eager helping hands. Must be a North American pioneer trait, like that great, warm American Southern Hospitality. Fur traders from Orkney and France and elsewhere developed one mixed language with which they could communicate with the Cree Indians in the Hudson's Bay basin. Even that clever, basic blend of tongues has resulted in a book and a dictionary to assist scholars and historians. One poor soul in her late eighties or nineties, a native living in Alaska, is the last living person who knows her native tongue. A university with assistance has compiled a description and dictionary of that language, eager to keep it alive after her passing. Neat! I suppose if one can't get interpreted, these precious old Orcadian documents, then we are bound to rely on the testimony of living amateur historians. Pity. For access denied by any means is in direct conflict with the very purpose of keeping them and maintaining a library in Kirkwall. Opening a book is opening the mind. Perhaps this is why Orkneyinga Saga was published in many languages. The repeated expression that Orcadians are overly "inward", often printed in books I have read, appears to have deep root. Spring is here and the ice is melting. I'll take this Orkney frustration and my fishing line, to the trout waters. Stephen > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/ORCADIA/2000-09/0969628692 > RootsWeb: ORCADIA-L Re: Fegs beuy what??? RE: [ORCADIA] Geo.Mackay ... > - > ORCADIA-L Archives. From: "Nick-Durie" <Nick-Durie@aladdinscave.net> > Subject: Re: > Fegs beuy what??? ... > S. > >. This thread: Fegs beuy what??? ... > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/ORCADIA/2000-09/0969639172 > > Karen > > > ==== ORCADIA Mailing List ==== > To unsubscribe from the Orcadia mailing list, send an e-mail with the > word > 'unsubscribe' in the message body to orcadia-l-request@rootsweb.com > ==== ORCADIA Mailing List ==== To unsubscribe from the Orcadia mailing list, send an e-mail with the word 'unsubscribe' in the message body to orcadia-l-request@rootsweb.com

Thankyou so much. Nice to feel some other heart beats to the same rythm. You are so right. We in this country value diversity, and we interpret everything into both English and French, and many native languages and we embrace all world cultures to the extreme. The US has embraced Spanish and that culture of colour and music, along with the deep established old African connection. One of my favourite haunts is the Mountains in North Carolina and Tennessee. The culture there was beautifully embraced by a book written by college kids called "Foxfire." It is old lore stuff with photos of mountain people of senior age, who pass along food recipes, banjo-making skills, corn pone tricks, and all sorts of things right down to making good smoked ham. Now there are about 20 of the Foxfire series. Those original students passed it on! There has to be a lesson to be learned from all this. Great to hear from you! Stephen On Tuesday, April 20, 2004, at 07:39 AM, k l wrote: > Stephan > Even when you are frustrated you are a delight to > read. I agree with the importance of recovering the > old Orkney dialects. It's not just the words that are > important but the reflection of how a people looks and > thinks on their world is lost. We in the Americas > know that if you want to take away a groups culture, > you begin by taking away their language. > Kathy > > > --- stephen davie <stephen.davie@sympatico.ca> wrote: >> I am sincerely gratified to learn that others in the >> world , besides >> this soul, experience some frustrations and problems >> trying to >> interpret with accuracy old Orkney dialects. >> Stephen >>> >> > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/ORCADIA/2000-09/0969628692 >>> RootsWeb: ORCADIA-L Re: Fegs beuy what??? RE: >> [ORCADIA] Geo.Mackay ... >>> - >>> ORCADIA-L Archives. From: "Nick-Durie" >> <Nick-Durie@aladdinscave.net> >>> Subject: Re: >>> Fegs beuy what??? ... > S. > >. This thread: Fegs >> beuy what??? ... >>> >> > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/ORCADIA/2000-09/0969639172 >>> >>> Karen >>> >>> >>> ==== ORCADIA Mailing List ==== >>> To unsubscribe from the Orcadia mailing list, send >> an e-mail with the >>> word >>> 'unsubscribe' in the message body to >> orcadia-l-request@rootsweb.com >>> >> >> >> ==== ORCADIA Mailing List ==== >> To unsubscribe from the Orcadia mailing list, send >> an e-mail with the word >> 'unsubscribe' in the message body to >> orcadia-l-request@rootsweb.com >> > > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25¢ > http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash > > > ==== ORCADIA Mailing List ==== > To unsubscribe from the Orcadia mailing list, send an e-mail with the > word > 'unsubscribe' in the message body to orcadia-l-request@rootsweb.com >

I am sincerely gratified to learn that others in the world , besides this soul, experience some frustrations and problems trying to interpret with accuracy old Orkney dialects. They poses a truly obnoxious barrier for anyone who seriously tries to learn about their former culture or family from there, by searching very old documents for example. Native languages in North America, crude as they are, are all easily deciphered with the eagerness to help cheerfully extended by people living in those cultures. The same is true for variant twists in French and Spanish which are a North American feature from Louisianna to Quebec to Mexico and Texas. Lots of support material and eager helping hands. Must be a North American pioneer trait, like that great, warm American Southern Hospitality. Fur traders from Orkney and France and elsewhere developed one mixed language with which they could communicate with the Cree Indians in the Hudson's Bay basin. Even that clever, basic blend of tongues has resulted in a book and a dictionary to assist scholars and historians. One poor soul in her late eighties or nineties, a native living in Alaska, is the last living person who knows her native tongue. A university with assistance has compiled a description and dictionary of that language, eager to keep it alive after her passing. Neat! I suppose if one can't get interpreted, these precious old Orcadian documents, then we are bound to rely on the testimony of living amateur historians. Pity. For access denied by any means is in direct conflict with the very purpose of keeping them and maintaining a library in Kirkwall. Opening a book is opening the mind. Perhaps this is why Orkneyinga Saga was published in many languages. The repeated expression that Orcadians are overly "inward", often printed in books I have read, appears to have deep root. Spring is here and the ice is melting. I'll take this Orkney frustration and my fishing line, to the trout waters. Stephen > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/ORCADIA/2000-09/0969628692 > RootsWeb: ORCADIA-L Re: Fegs beuy what??? RE: [ORCADIA] Geo.Mackay ... > - > ORCADIA-L Archives. From: "Nick-Durie" <Nick-Durie@aladdinscave.net> > Subject: Re: > Fegs beuy what??? ... > S. > >. This thread: Fegs beuy what??? ... > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/ORCADIA/2000-09/0969639172 > > Karen > > > ==== ORCADIA Mailing List ==== > To unsubscribe from the Orcadia mailing list, send an e-mail with the > word > 'unsubscribe' in the message body to orcadia-l-request@rootsweb.com >

I have some of those books. They are priceless. Would love to see that kind of project taken on in Orkney!!. Kathy > One of my favourite haunts is the Mountains in > North Carolina and > Tennessee. The culture there was beautifully > embraced by a book written > by college kids called "Foxfire." It is old lore > stuff with photos of > mountain people of senior age, who pass along food > recipes, > banjo-making skills, corn pone tricks, and all sorts > of things right > down to making good smoked ham. Now there are about > 20 of the Foxfire > series. Those original students passed it on! There > has to be a lesson > to be learned from all this. >> > > > > ==== ORCADIA Mailing List ==== > > To unsubscribe from the Orcadia mailing list, send > an e-mail with the > > word > > 'unsubscribe' in the message body to > orcadia-l-request@rootsweb.com > > > > > > ==== ORCADIA Mailing List ==== > To unsubscribe from the Orcadia mailing list, send > an e-mail with the word > 'unsubscribe' in the message body to > orcadia-l-request@rootsweb.com > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25� http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash