I bet you a pound that there is 'evidence of ritual practice'. It must be great being an archaeologist, never having to say 'I don't know what this means'...:-) Cheers Steven ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Ireland" <r.reland@tiscali.co.uk> To: <ORCADIA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2004 7:09 PM Subject: Re: [<orcadia>] Skeleton discovered at Minehowe > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Sigurd Towrie" <sigurd@orkneyjar.com> > To: <ORCADIA-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 9:37 PM > Subject: [<orcadia>] Skeleton discovered at Minehowe > > > > Some stop press news. > > > > Archaeologists returned to Minehowe > > (http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/minehowe) for a fourth season last week. > > Returning to the site of an Iron Age metalworking structure > > (http://www.orkneyjar.com/archaeology/minehowe2003.htm) outside the ditch > > surrounding the underground chamber itself, they have begun to unearth the > > remains of a complete skeleton. > > > > The burial took place well after the building was constructed and saw a > > grave being dug in the floor of the "workshop" and the body interred. > After > > the grave was covered over the work continued in the structure as normal. > > > > It's early days yet. Only the pelvis, lower backbone, legs and segments of > > the arms were visible today, so the sex and age of the deceased is not yet > > known. However, given the scarcity of Iron Age burials in Scotland, let > > > alone Orkney, the archeologists are very exciting. > > Hmm now that's interesting, whats so exiting about them then. > > > > > ==== ORCADIA Mailing List ==== > To unsubscribe from the Orcadia mailing list, send an e-mail with the word > 'unsubscribe' in the message body to orcadia-l-request@rootsweb.com >

----- Original Message ----- From: "Sigurd Towrie" <sigurd@orkneyjar.com> To: <ORCADIA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 9:37 PM Subject: [<orcadia>] Skeleton discovered at Minehowe > Some stop press news. > > Archaeologists returned to Minehowe > (http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/minehowe) for a fourth season last week. > Returning to the site of an Iron Age metalworking structure > (http://www.orkneyjar.com/archaeology/minehowe2003.htm) outside the ditch > surrounding the underground chamber itself, they have begun to unearth the > remains of a complete skeleton. > > The burial took place well after the building was constructed and saw a > grave being dug in the floor of the "workshop" and the body interred. After > the grave was covered over the work continued in the structure as normal. > > It's early days yet. Only the pelvis, lower backbone, legs and segments of > the arms were visible today, so the sex and age of the deceased is not yet > known. However, given the scarcity of Iron Age burials in Scotland, let > alone Orkney, the archeologists are very exciting. Hmm now that's interesting, whats so exiting about them then.

I thought everyone had been awfully quiet. I'd only seen 2 of 3 messages this month, and they didn't make a lot of sense. I finally checked the Orkneyjar website, and found I'd missed out on quite a bit. What I had read makes much better reading in context of the rest of the discussion, and a lively one it's been. Can't wait to get there and see the exciting archeologists. Anyone who gets this message and doesn't remember there being much discussion this month, might want to check. I too cannot wait to get back to Orkney. I'm working on plans to go back to the St. Magnus Festival next June, I hated missing this year's. Anyone else going around then? But for right now, I'm trying to get ready to go to Germany where I will pick up a copy of Wolfgang's Orkney book from my friend in Heidelberg where I had it shipped as they wanted the price of a plane ticket to mail it here! She will also have to tell me what it says, as my attempts to learn Deutsch in the past year have been pretty futile---I got hung up on too many ways to say "the," and trying to determine which river was what gender. I think I'll go see what I missed out on in July. Karen still in Memphis and almost as young as Wolfgang & Stephen

Thank You. I am looking forward to the trip. Stephen On Tuesday, August 10, 2004, at 04:51 AM, Kathy wrote: > Stephen > Your love of your land and your ancestry is as > wonderful as Sigurd's. It's a delight and privilege > to have the acquaintance of both of you as well as > everyone on this web. You'll find your trip lonely > but I trust you'll find it one of the most soul > opening experiences in your life. I know I did. > Being in that place put me in touch with places I > thought had died years ago. I look forward to my trip > back. > Kathy > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > > > ==== ORCADIA Mailing List ==== > To unsubscribe from the Orcadia mailing list, send an e-mail with the > word > 'unsubscribe' in the message body to orcadia-l-request@rootsweb.com >

Stephen Your love of your land and your ancestry is as wonderful as Sigurd's. It's a delight and privilege to have the acquaintance of both of you as well as everyone on this web. You'll find your trip lonely but I trust you'll find it one of the most soul opening experiences in your life. I know I did. Being in that place put me in touch with places I thought had died years ago. I look forward to my trip back. Kathy __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

Some stop press news. Archaeologists returned to Minehowe (http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/minehowe) for a fourth season last week. Returning to the site of an Iron Age metalworking structure (http://www.orkneyjar.com/archaeology/minehowe2003.htm) outside the ditch surrounding the underground chamber itself, they have begun to unearth the remains of a complete skeleton. The burial took place well after the building was constructed and saw a grave being dug in the floor of the "workshop" and the body interred. After the grave was covered over the work continued in the structure as normal. It's early days yet. Only the pelvis, lower backbone, legs and segments of the arms were visible today, so the sex and age of the deceased is not yet known. However, given the scarcity of Iron Age burials in Scotland, let alone Orkney, the archeologists are very exciting. I was going to be posting an article online this evening, along with photographs. But I've gone and left my pendrive in Kirkwall! -- Sigurd Towrie Blackhall - Kirbister - Stromness - Orkney Heritage of Orkney: www.orkneyjar.com Home: sigurd@orkneyjar.com Work: sigurd.towrie@orcadian.co.uk

Hello listers, I'm going home to Orkney for two weeks' holiday 1-14 September. If any one who will be there at the same time wants to meet, please e-mail me privately. Mike Clouston

Hello Canorky Stephen! It's just a note, no more: Please, don't call me Wolf. Call me Wolfgang or Wolfgadr (what's possibly closest to the Norse origin) or simply Charlie after my third name :-) or whatever you want. Wolf was the name of the sheppard dog of that guy with the funny moustache in the 1930ies and 1940ies, and if there is anything whereon I react somehow allergic . you know . :-) Well, when I am talking about underachievers or underachiement or underpriviledged people you should know that I am myself a descendent of an impoverished branch of a family that settled as protestant Salzburg Hugenottes in what was at that time (16th century) Eastern Prussia. Together with an amazing figure of Scotsmen (more than 30.000 in that century alone - who knows about that?) they did a good job and layed the foundations of what later became the Kingdom of Prussia, while the catholic main main branch of the said family (the Barons Schlick of Bohemia and Austria) had at least three Chancellors of the Holy Roman Empire at the same time. As far as I am concerned: I am now 55 years, 5 month and 12 days old . whereof I was been to Orkney for about 3 years and two month and another year and a couple of month or so to Shetland. That's no 'merit'; it simply indicates that it is easier to travel the islands from Hamburg, where I live than it is from the East Coast of Canada . :-) As far as history is concerned: I've finished with 'looking at heroes'. Hannibal?! Pah - Would he ever have crossed the Alpes without the boy who lead his elephant? Or even this General von Steuben - of course in terms of American history a prominent figure, a top ten politician and military of his days. But in terms of German or even European military history: just another staff officer amongst others in the second or third line. It is more or less by chance that those names survived due to the fact that they had the chance to command someone to write down their history. Then look at Dr John Rae, just to name an Orcadian: What would have happened to the young Canadian Nation and its economy without his skills and experience - but who knows about that today. And then look at the chap on bench N° 4 in Eric's or Leif's longship: He rowed his master's boat, he fished his master's fish, he ploughed his master's fields, he built his master's hall . he sang for him and he died for him when summoned up. It was David Hume another 18th century and long forgotten Scotsman who introduced this point of view into what later became 'social history' . :-) cu Wolfgang

Hi Wolfgang: So, in addition to having an interest in a tiny group of windswept isles, we are within a year of each other in age. I being only months older. I am looking forward to reaching sixty, because a recently departed old political figure from hereabouts assured us that people don't really know anything until they reach their sixtieth birthday! Frpm there onward life in a cruise for people still doing business. The apprenticeship is completed. I share your well-stated view or observations about manufactured written history. In some way, the gypsies who sang their tales as did the folksy hippies of Robin Hoods day, had a better idea, assuming they were handing down accurate second hand information from an unbiased observer, rather than recording dictation from some fellow with a whip and a bad temper. The one aspect of Orkney that cannot deceive us, is the stone-built ancient edifices which dot the land and speak of those ancient times. History "etched in stone' as they say. Of a similar note, are the ruins of the vikings in Labrador. HBC factor's notes were amazingly accurate, and their tallies had to match the products that arrived by ship and canoe from London, and the corresponding furs returning there, failing which the factor was promptly canned. Sorry for the Wolf abbreviation. My wife drove a diesel German car, and one of the chaps in the shop we would see when she went for her service appointments, was a German lad who liked the name Wolf rather than Wolfgang. Wolfgadr is an interesting version. The friend of yours on bench 4 of Eric's ship is the sort of chap that reminds me of the underachievers that some old writers coined young Orkneymen as. They propelled the Company to it's destination in history, in the same way your oarsman contributed to the power of that old viking boat. Off to work now. project up north to complete. I'll think of you the next time my neighbor offers me a German ale in a pewter stein. Yours Aye: Stephen On Monday, August 9, 2004, at 12:47 AM, Wolfgang Schlick wrote: > Hello Canorky Stephen! > > > > It's just a note, no more: Please, don't call me Wolf. Call me > Wolfgang or > Wolfgadr (what's possibly closest to the Norse origin) or simply > Charlie > after my third name :-) or whatever you want. Wolf was the name of the > sheppard dog of that guy with the funny moustache in the 1930ies and > 1940ies, and if there is anything whereon I react somehow allergic . > you > know . :-) > > > > Well, when I am talking about underachievers or underachiement or > underpriviledged people you should know that I am myself a descendent > of an > impoverished branch of a family that settled as protestant Salzburg > Hugenottes in what was at that time (16th century) Eastern Prussia. > Together > with an amazing figure of Scotsmen (more than 30.000 in that century > alone - > who knows about that?) they did a good job and layed the foundations > of what > later became the Kingdom of Prussia, while the catholic main main > branch of > the said family (the Barons Schlick of Bohemia and Austria) had at > least > three Chancellors of the Holy Roman Empire at the same time. > > > > As far as I am concerned: I am now 55 years, 5 month and 12 days old . > whereof I was been to Orkney for about 3 years and two month and > another > year and a couple of month or so to Shetland. That's no 'merit'; it > simply > indicates that it is easier to travel the islands from Hamburg, where > I live > than it is from the East Coast of Canada . :-) > > > > As far as history is concerned: I've finished with 'looking at heroes'. > Hannibal?! Pah - Would he ever have crossed the Alpes without the boy > who > lead his elephant? Or even this General von Steuben - of course in > terms of > American history a prominent figure, a top ten politician and military > of > his days. But in terms of German or even European military history: > just > another staff officer amongst others in the second or third line. It > is more > or less by chance that those names survived due to the fact that they > had > the chance to command someone to write down their history. Then look > at Dr > John Rae, just to name an Orcadian: What would have happened to the > young > Canadian Nation and its economy without his skills and experience - > but who > knows about that today. And then look at the chap on bench N° 4 in > Eric's or > Leif's longship: He rowed his master's boat, he fished his master's > fish, he > ploughed his master's fields, he built his master's hall . he sang for > him > and he died for him when summoned up. > > > > It was David Hume another 18th century and long forgotten Scotsman who > introduced this point of view into what later became 'social history' > . :-) > > > > cu > > Wolfgang > > > ==== ORCADIA Mailing List ==== > To unsubscribe from the Orcadia mailing list, send an e-mail with the > word > 'unsubscribe' in the message body to orcadia-l-request@rootsweb.com >

iwon't be in Orkney to greet you but the name (Edward) CLOUSTON is recorded in the IRVINE history as being the name of the HBC agent who signed on one John Irvine and family at Stromness, HBC wharf (today's Pier Arts' Centre) in October 1850, bound for London, England, aboard the steamship, Trident. The HBC servants there boarded the barque, Tory, November 10th, to sail 'round the Horn to New Caledonia, arriving May 14th, 1851. Have a safe and enjoyable journey to Orkney. bill http://islandnet.com/~wji/tapstr06.jpg ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Clouston <mike@mikeclouston.co.uk> Date: Monday, August 9, 2004 7:17 am Subject: [<orcadia>] Going home! > Hello listers, > > I'm going home to Orkney for two weeks' holiday 1-14 September. > If any one who will be there at the same time wants to meet, > please > e-mail me privately. > > Mike Clouston > > > ==== ORCADIA Mailing List ==== > To unsubscribe from the Orcadia mailing list, send an e-mail with > the word > 'unsubscribe' in the message body to orcadia-l-request@rootsweb.com > >

On 07 August 2004 23:32, Wolfgang Schlick wrote: > I > think it would be helpfull for the understanding of the text > to have some of your comments on the notes shown there ... :-) I've not actually seen this version or the notes. I'll have to see if I can't source a copy. -- Sigurd Towrie Blackhall - Kirbister - Stromness - Orkney Heritage of Orkney: www.orkneyjar.com Home: sigurd@orkneyjar.com Work: sigurd.towrie@orcadian.co.uk

>>>The real debate, it seems, is just who's measuring stick was used ...? I agree, that's a good question! So, Eric the Red discovered America? Just for a minute: Try to think about the chap who sat on bench four starboard side and the other some 40 men who rowed an sailed Eric across the water to get your measuring stick rescaled ... :-)

Hi Wolf. Thanks for paying attention. Didn't actually say that Red discovered America, did I old boy? Just that perhaps one might believe that the nature of such a Viking people perpetuated itself into the young Orcadians who might have at a seemingly young age, stepped aboard a ship of the HBC, with a similar outlook. In fact as I recall, it was Bjarni Harjolfsson who in about 986 sort of got blown to Labrador's coast in a gale off Greenland. It was in fact the son of Eric the Red, namely Lief Ericson I think, who later (officially if that means anything to someone) re-established contact with the shores first visited by Bjarni. So, Eric the Red isn't far off the mark. Eric the Red is easier to spell than Harjolfsson, and as a pronounced, multi-generational underachiever, I felt it less risky to use his name as an example, the skip of a generation notwithstanding. I recall reading about one young Thorfin who actually died in Newfoundland, which I found interesting having been historically attached to that name. Heck, I am a third rate land developer and a bushpilot with a trappers licence. I am no academic. Just interested in Orkney for a very very selfish reason. I intend to plant some trees there this year. maybe go out fishing with some fisherman with a sense of humor. One thing for sure, Christopher Columbus and the Italian connection were 506 years behind. That's according to my measuring stick. Great Canadian websites on all this stuff by the way, with photos of inground digs similar sortof to some I see on Sig's site. Even as we read history, we must remember to challenge conclusions made by people who may have had reason(grudge) to discolour an issue.(all Americans who voted for George Bush take note) That I feel is what a few writers did to these men. I can't fathom the blanket criticism that besmirches young people in their teens, and brands them underachievers. On this side of the pond, and certainly by the HBC professional researchers, the theory doesn't quite hold up, and if you want to read about how the English performed over here, read the journals of the French. If it wasn't for the Indians, we would be either Americans or French today. Without native allies fighting their battles, the English could not have won out. they dressed funny and wore the wrong stuff. Stuck out like warts on a hog's nose. Orcadians were quick to adapt to moosehides and furs. Of course, they were the ones who left the fort. All things being as they be, and we mortals infallible if not downright underachievers (it's in my blood you know) it is fun chatting with you Wolf and all, and I live for the day when we can have a "SigSite Reunion" in some stone wateringhole, on a chilly fall day when the ale and the malt tastes it's best, and a peat fire pulses out it's historic value to an enthusiastic and eclectic assembly of international Orkney affectionados. Had I gone last year in the fall I could have met for example, the fascinating and very much invigorating Jan Nary from Australia on her excursion. She had made some arrangement to go to sea in a Viking ship in the Shetlands. Kool lady! Of course we'd have to have to mix the fascinating history chats with some outrageous fun, Viking style perhaps. who knows, with the right crowd, perhaps we could attack England again! Hats off to old Sig. I'd pay happily to support this marvelous electronic exerience. The wealth of knowledge available to us is overwhelming. My dear recently departed wife and I had hoped to come there last fall for a looksee, but now I will come alone to commiserate with the souls of my ancient Viking forbears, and to meet and thank a few people there who have so generously and enthusiastically helped me trace my very long roots. The dreaded cancer took away one of the main reasons I live, and a chance for us to share Orkney together. But it will not stel our dream. So I shall take the trip alone, visit some distant relatives I have recently discovered, say hi and thanks again to the artist that painted our farm, take some maple syrup to wonderful Mr. Phillips at the Mill who sent me the flour, meet the nice lady on the farm that makes cheese and tolerates my eccentric passions for my roots, meet a dear old cousin, and finish this bloody big book without my partner at my side. By the way, a friend just returned from there, and brought me a bottle of something called Scapa. It is quite good, while seemingly more harsh than the Highland Park breed.Guess that's because they have only been doing this since 1885, where Highland park have been at it since 1798. Some might say that the newer distillery is an underachiever, but not me laddy! But in fact I prefer the Highland Park, so I shall peddle the other stuff to those who really can't tell the difference. I had to wonder if there is a local brewery as well. Don't see any Orkney brews over here you know. I seldom drink beer. Not much whisky either. But the whisky is very popular here that comes from Highland Park. I punched open their website lately and the volume was elevated somewhat on my computer. Sounded like someone whistling while flushing a very powerful toilet. I suppose that one could create a thought as to why they would project such an audible international image. perhaps it is a picture of happiness and achievement. There's that word again Wolf! By the way , Wolf, I was wondering how old a fellow you are, for you have shown yourself to be very knowledgeable in your history. But I can't ask your age on this site, I feel. So, what year were you born in? Thanks for the info. Yours Aye: ( I love that expression!) Stephen On Sunday, August 8, 2004, at 09:51 AM, Wolfgang Schlick wrote: >>>> The real debate, it seems, is just who's measuring stick was used >>>> ...? > > I agree, that's a good question! > So, Eric the Red discovered America? Just for a minute: Try to think > about > the chap who sat on bench four starboard side and the other some 40 > men who > rowed an sailed Eric across the water to get your measuring stick > rescaled > ... :-) > > > ==== ORCADIA Mailing List ==== > To unsubscribe from the Orcadia mailing list, send an e-mail with the > word > 'unsubscribe' in the message body to orcadia-l-request@rootsweb.com >

>>> Sorry Sig, but this Thorfin/Kolbein/Grimbister/Borwick/Davie doesn't like to read the hint that the men who opened the doors in this harsh country were somehow underachievers. >>> That type of adventurous spirit, passed down from Viking roots, in my mind is far from the general description of an underachiever. . Sounds a bit "blue-eyed". Even the first Vikings who settled in Iceland, Brittany or Orkney, were underachievers (including the first Norse Earl of Orkney :-), who actually was the third choice according to saga tradition). Right from those early days the history of colonization is the history of underachievers a n d underpriviledged people. That does NOT exclude that some of them made big fortunes, splendid careers or found strength in their new living to build a new nation.

Good morning all. May the treasures of this beautiful sabbath be yours; peace love health and happiness. I simply make the factual point, for some who perhaps have never as yet experienced our magnificent huge yet untamed north, that the incredible feats performed by the early and young Orcadian paddlers, were not the accomplishments of folks one might flippantly describe as underachievers. An example of this would be for you to look at the website of MIL Davie, Shipbuilders. Do the people who built this huge billion dollar company many many years ago, who happened to be original HBC Orcadians, look like underachievers? As HBC men, that is the brand some give them. Then there is Joseph Isbister and countless amazing others. I acknowledge that these sorts of remarks were written years ago, in those times, but by whom? Think about it. Then there are those who think all Orcadians were little short people. Well, when they restricted back then for a time, the outbound HBC allowable minimum height to 5 foot something ( a dumb idea probably inspired by frustrated womenfolk), the only ones who fit under the measuring stick were kids, twelve and thirteen years old often. When I look at our Canorkies, I laugh at the remark. History took shots at our forefathers, but those volleys were fired by the real underachievers.....the ones for whom perhaps quite often the hearts of Orkney women did not beat, nor in their dreams, indulge. Much Orkney spirit, as well as a huge gene pool, seems to have clambered aboard those old ships. They were anything but society's weak and unfocused. There wasn't enough there at the time to focus on, perhaps, when compared with the stories flowing back with HBC returnees. Just because some twisted English penshaker historian decided to brand them underachievers doesn't make it so when you look at the facts. The real debate, it seems, is just who's measuring stick was used to determine what an underachiever was? Perhaps leaving Orkney, which is so limited in space and natural resources, was essential to give these lads a fair trial or opportunity to employ their genetics. After the Brits ended up with Orkney, what challenges were left? Marrying a Scot landowners daughter? Stacking up a stone fence? Trying to keep warm in winter in a woodless group of islands? Was not leaving and exploring and pushing on part of the Viking Orcadian existence? Who, in fact, discovered America? They way we know it, the proof lies in Labrador. Was either Lief the Lucky or Eric the Red branded the same disgusting unfitting underachiever name? That the longboat that landed in Labrador a thousand years ago had also touched Orkney is not unreasonable to muster up.(perhaps Christopher Columbus was merely summoned to these shores, by a Viking with a hankering for a pizza!) The other issue is, that in light of the fact that Orcadian achievements were so many and varied, that in addition to actually visiting our north, one has to read a few volumes of historical accounts (Caesars of the Wilderness, Company of Adventures, Alexander Isbister Etc.) to begin to comprehend the magnitude of the overall achievement. I personally think it took real courage for young Orkneymen returning home, to have in tow their Cree country wives and their offspring. Perhaps one day we can read something of the schools that were set up for these special children in Orkney, and the rationale for setting them apart from other children. I often wonder how many of those Orkney/Cree people still live in Orkney, and why. Perhaps they couldn't handle the confinement of Orkney, and the lack of trees or game. I am sure this topic has been studied, but not much is written that seems readily available. Maybe the story is not all "good." I guess they (Orkney Cree) too were branded "underachievers " rather than recognize their immense culture shock. To stand on the shores of Hudson's Bay, in a 50 mph northwester, three or four hundred miles from the nearest sizeable Cree village, penetrates the soul with an immeasurable flood of emotions. Fear, Awe, Curiosity, Shock, Joy...those sorts of things all mixed up in one cool experience. I am sure there are days afloat when Orkney fishermen still get a portion of that sense. ( Relatives of mine visiting recently, recanted that while traveling the few miles from Scotland to Orkney, the vast majority on board the ferry, ran for the rails to spew into the rolling sea. They could hardly hold back the giggles, as folk clutched their eyeglasses or teeth in one hand, and the rail with the other, intermittently groping around for a tissue.) Compare that huge British metalized, virtually unsinkable modern-day motorcow, with the vessels the underachievers steered through the cantankerous icebergs under sail, to get to this place. Hmmn.... No, it is to me at least unfair to broadbrush paint those with the courage to leave as underachievers. There had to be a sense of adventure along with a yearning for a less restricted and boring life than those yesteryear Islands had to offer. Would a healthy young man rather stack Orkney hay gratis, or paddle a birch bark canoe up uncharted rivers, guaranteed all the way of a wage, meals and gear and unending excitement. And as I read the Orkneyinga Saga, I see that same sense of outreach and adventure, bolstered by raw courage, as something to defend and uphold. I guess it is different for those of us who know this country and her north. For even with modernday technology, there persists days and routine experiences on the Bay, which prove she will never be tamed any more than the white bears that patrol her shores. And that suits me fine. So, enough of the underachievers. What did the achievers over there do? On to the positive stuff! I love the single malt. And some of the art is lovely. The cathedral is a wonderful icon, and an amazing construction feat of the day. Too bad there wasn't more Norwegian influence about; maybe that too will come. They are now the #1 ranked place in the world to live. Their sweaters are lovely, gayly patterned and practical in this country to boot. Hope there is a couple other Canorkies who might stand up for our pioneer achievers, on the basis of the big Canadian measuring stick and not accept the inaccurate thumbsucking dribble recanted from those dead four- hundred -year- old men who simply "missed the boat." And what about all those chaps who moved out to Australia? Do you call them underachievers too? From what I read and hear, that country too demanded exceptional people, to withstand the rigors or that harsh untamed land. In Orkney of old, perhaps criticism of their own who left to explore this vast and varied land, was a way to bolster weak hearts and soggy spirits. For every time an HBC ship left that place, tears I am sure were being shed by the families left behind, and in some cases, amongst those brave young men plowing into the dark cold sea. Considering the actual age of many of the men, mere boys in many cases, it is a harsh thing, if not patently stupid, to give them any negative brand at all. Most of them hadn't had time to even grow whiskers. Fourteen year-old-underachievers? Heiferdust! The very thought of slandering children as such, is to me overwhelmingly ludicrous. Au Revoir. A la Prochain! Stephen. Sunday, August 8, 2004, at 02:21 AM, Wolfgang Schlick wrote: >>>> Sorry Sig, but this Thorfin/Kolbein/Grimbister/Borwick/Davie doesn't > like to read the hint that the men who opened the doors in this harsh > country were somehow underachievers. > >>>> That type of adventurous spirit, passed down from Viking roots, in >>>> my > mind is far from the general description of an underachiever. . > > > > Sounds a bit "blue-eyed". Even the first Vikings who settled in > Iceland, > Brittany or Orkney, were underachievers (including the first Norse > Earl of > Orkney :-), who actually was the third choice according to saga > tradition). > Right from those early days the history of colonization is the history > of > underachievers a n d underpriviledged people. That does NOT exclude > that > some of them made big fortunes, splendid careers or found strength in > their > new living to build a new nation. > > > ==== ORCADIA Mailing List ==== > To unsubscribe from the Orcadia mailing list, send an e-mail with the > word > 'unsubscribe' in the message body to orcadia-l-request@rootsweb.com >

I wonder where Jo Ben came from...????? As my old uncle used to say about the English ruling classes, and to continue the 'Pommy bashing a bit longer', ...'That if they had a dunderhead of a son that he was usually put in the army (evidenced by the number of incompetent British officers over time), or in the Ministry.' This repeated itself right through till after WW2 I suspect. My McInnes line were at Culloden also and the example was not just repeated by the British. What better way to get rid of one than to send him to the northern antipodes to bring faith to the heathen and to wander about recording his insights to boot. Coming from a perceived advanced imperialist society no doubt the Orcadian looked and acted a bit like a drone (as in bee) or even a 'sheep' for that matter. I am interested in this character Jo Ben and where he hailed from.... Do we know any more ??? Note the site says ,,,no trace... so I suspect you are still on the track. Sorry about opening the can of worms. Now we have to get them back in the can. Clinton McInnes On 8/08/2004, at 9:32 AM, Sigurd Towrie wrote: > On 07 August 2004 15:41, Bill Irvine wrote: > >> "Jo Ben harps on about the laziness of the Orcadians a few >> times" this does not explain why fully 60 percent of >> indentured Hudson's Bay servants in Canada by the eighteenth >> century were Orcadians. bill p.s. unless it was the Bay's >> intent to hire only underachievers. > > You'll find the "laziness" of Orcadians remarked upon by a number of > historical chroniclers. You have to remember that these people were > usually > in the upper echelons of society and connected to the landowners of the > time. So obviously in their eyes the peasantry were not working hard > enough...and probably never would. > > If someone couldn't come up with the "rent" for the landowner, the > fact that > the Orcadian family had to survive as well as furnish their master's > coffers > meant nothing. They were obviously just idle. > > You'll find it throughout history. Think of the "worthless saxon dogs" > the > Normans encountered. > > -- > Sigurd Towrie > Blackhall - Kirbister - Stromness - Orkney > Heritage of Orkney: www.orkneyjar.com > Home: sigurd@orkneyjar.com > Work: sigurd.towrie@orcadian.co.uk > > > > ==== ORCADIA Mailing List ==== > To unsubscribe from the Orcadia mailing list, send an e-mail with the > word > 'unsubscribe' in the message body to orcadia-l-request@rootsweb.com > >

You are absolutely correct. Alexander Isbister was a subject of a book about it. Thanks for having the courage to use the word! In Canada, first nations people put up with it every day. Seems not much has changes in four hundred years or so. On Saturday, August 7, 2004, at 05:24 PM, M. E. McCarty wrote: > Wee touch of racism creeping in here me thinks > Moi McCarty > In message <C3FCEA56-E8B7-11D8-AC13-0003939E1D4C@sympatico.ca>, > stephen davie <stephen.davie@sympatico.ca> writes >> HBC in fact did hire underachievers, right off the bat. They were at >> first Englishmen, vacumed up off the streets of London. They >> consistently performed very poorly, were cowardly, and totally >> unsuited for a tough long-term challenge. They were not adaptable, >> and had few manly skills suited to the real outdoors. And >> unsurprising to those of us who are descendant Canorkies (my term) >> who came to Canada with that monopolistic corporate English symbol of >> imperialism, the english were unsuited to the rigors of any typical >> challenge in the constantly- changing natural world. Our viking >> forefathers on the other hand, passed along the lifeskills needed to >> thrive and survive. These included sea skills, and great "camping' >> wisdom for a variety of extreme weather-related circumstances >> >> The HBC journals I have read, occasionally are critical of the >> Orcadian HBC men. But the criticism was usually written by an >> englishman, who was incapable of communicating effectively with our >> first nations peoples, whom adored the Orcadians and loathed the >> English. History recorded shows that fearless and courageous men >> alone, blazed the trails for latter-day immigrants from Britian, and >> the first choice for getting the job done was the Orkneymen from >> Firth and Stennes, according to all credible historical records in >> this country. (by the way, the English finally coughed up their HBC >> records which now have their rightful home in Winnipeg, Manitoba.) >> >> In my family, it was evident that if you lived in Firth, as we did in >> Grimbister near Davie Brig, and you wern't the eldest son of a >> landowner, your chances of owning ground regardless of how hard you >> worked were somewhere between nil and nothing, unless you could win >> the heart of an only daughter with sick parents. In our family, on >> one occasion, two young men went to Stennes where an HBC boat was set >> to sail for the west. One of the young men said, "Go home and tell Ma >> that I have gone west with the HBC but I'll be back in five years." >> That type of adventurous spirit, passed down from Viking roots, in my >> mind is far from the general description of an underachiever. When I >> meet resident Orcadians on this site and elsewhere, there is an >> undertow of curiosity and even a little envy of those families who >> came out here, and slugged it out, swallowing mosquitoes by the pound >> when they dared breath, losing their digits to frostbite, and >> confronting wild beasts in the Bay area, with the worst of weapons >> handed out buy the company, which often blew up in the face of the >> shooter confronted with a bear, or whilst gathering meat. >> >> On August 24, 1782, our own Andrew Davie was captured with other >> Orkneymen at fort Prince of Wales on Hudson's Bay. The circumstances >> were rather odd, and the company were critical of the Orkneymen. Few >> of them were ever trained to fire cannons which were placed on the >> walls. I suppose as the French arrived, the lead-butted, >> chair-smothering englishmen who commanded the Company from London >> would have liked it better if all the Orcadian men fought their >> hearts out , and died with their Orkney blood spilling onto the >> fallen union jack. But they were survivors. Their conclusion was sort >> of "Hey, we are here doing our thing for the company, where few >> others could. We want to go home in five years or ten, with our hard >> earned money, to our families. Dying at the hands of some beplumed >> frenchman who dropped in unannunced is not part of the deal. So why >> not see if the man has a bottle or two of brandy aboard, make peace, >> have a nice caribou and grouse feast with bluberry pie and >> thereafter, find our way to the company and explain that ill equiped >> as we were to defend it, we chose to live." This beautiful piece of >> history underlines the practical thinking of Orcadians. Also, whereas >> the English viewed natives here as a sub species, sort of half human >> and half bear, the Orcadians learned skills from them, and took >> native women for wives, in contrast to the stiff and haughty Brits. >> One of our distant relatives, Joseph Isbister, took a native wife >> (called country wives) and their son Alexander took a law degree in >> Scotland and thereafter championed the cause of Metis in the employ >> of the company. >> I was at a native Pow Wow on Manitoulin Island last weekend, and >> while watching the dances, I imagined our forefathers sitting through >> a similar gathering, eyeing some brown-eyed maiden, and contriving a >> plan to take her off, without having his throat cut in the process. >> Our property on Georgian Bay at Janet head, looks north into the cool >> waters of the North Shore, and I sat with my daughter-in-law, >> discussing how four hundred years ago, voyageurs could have very >> cnceivably camped on our expanse of pebble beach, still very much as >> natural and untouched as it was then. >> >> Sorry Sig, but this Thorfin/Kolbein/Grimbister/Borwick/Davie doesn't >> like to read the hint that the men who opened the doors in this harsh >> country were somehow underachievers. Anyone who thinks so should hop >> aboard a wooden boat, sans engine, and travel from Stennes through >> the Hudson Straits to Churchill, just for starters. Then try standing >> in front of a hungry and riled polar bear with a poor scattergun, and >> keep enough composure to make the one shot from this 20 guage >> disaster count. Nope, the fact that times were tough on Orkney >> doesn't make the people underachievers. The records here, thousands >> of pages of exciting factual stories of adventure, paint the truth. >> Any North American interested in Orkney and their roots, might well >> wish to visit Winnipeg and Fort York, and unearth the contributions >> achieved by truly remarkable, unshakeable and tenacious young men >> with a lust for adventure. >> Yours Aye: >> Stephen Davie (Canorky with a little native blood too!) >> On Saturday, August 7, 2004, at 07:40 AM, Bill Irvine wrote: >> >>> "Jo Ben harps on about the laziness of the Orcadians a few times" >>> this does not explain why fully 60 percent of indentured Hudson's >>> Bay servants in Canada by the eighteenth century were Orcadians. >>> bill >>> p.s. unless it was the Bay's intent to hire only underachievers. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Sigurd Towrie <sigurd@orkneyjar.com> >>> Date: Saturday, August 7, 2004 1:34 am >>> Subject: RE: [<orcadia>] Jo Ben's Descriptio Insularum Orchadiarum >>> >>>> On 07 August 2004 05:22, Clint McInnes wrote: >>>> >>>>> This is brilliant and a real insight. Can you tell me please what >>>>> 'slothful drones' are...???? " uneducated people of the land who >>>>> are >>>>> of bad habits, maybe >>>>> dirty and >>>>> of general moral decay " ... I assume...????? >>>> >>>> Indeed. Jo Ben harps on about the laziness of the Orcadians a few >>>> times. >>>>> and what then does >>>>> 'Sheipies' translate to please....???? >>>> >>>> I'm still looking into this one. On first glance it would appear >>>> to relate >>>> to "sheep" - however I suspect there's more to it and that it's a >>>> Norn term >>>> the author didn't understand so simply wrote what it sounded like. >>>> >>>> -- Sigurd Towrie >>>> Blackhall - Kirbister - Stromness - Orkney >>>> Heritage of Orkney: www.orkneyjar.com >>>> Home: sigurd@orkneyjar.com >>>> Work: sigurd.towrie@orcadian.co.uk >>>> >>>> >>>> ==== ORCADIA Mailing List ==== >>>> To unsubscribe from the Orcadia mailing list, send an e-mail with >>>> the word >>>> 'unsubscribe' in the message body to orcadia-l-request@rootsweb.com >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> ==== ORCADIA Mailing List ==== >>> To unsubscribe from the Orcadia mailing list, send an e-mail with >>> the word >>> 'unsubscribe' in the message body to orcadia-l-request@rootsweb.com >>> >> >> >> ==== ORCADIA Mailing List ==== >> To unsubscribe from the Orcadia mailing list, send an e-mail with the >> word >> 'unsubscribe' in the message body to orcadia-l-request@rootsweb.com >> > > -- > M.E.McCarty > 13 North Main Street Tel: +44(0)1988 402062 > Wigtown > Scotland > DG8 9HL > > > ==== ORCADIA Mailing List ==== > To unsubscribe from the Orcadia mailing list, send an e-mail with the > word > 'unsubscribe' in the message body to orcadia-l-request@rootsweb.com >

Wee touch of racism creeping in here me thinks Moi McCarty In message <C3FCEA56-E8B7-11D8-AC13-0003939E1D4C@sympatico.ca>, stephen davie <stephen.davie@sympatico.ca> writes >HBC in fact did hire underachievers, right off the bat. They were at >first Englishmen, vacumed up off the streets of London. They >consistently performed very poorly, were cowardly, and totally unsuited >for a tough long-term challenge. They were not adaptable, and had few >manly skills suited to the real outdoors. And unsurprising to those of >us who are descendant Canorkies (my term) who came to Canada with that >monopolistic corporate English symbol of imperialism, the english were >unsuited to the rigors of any typical challenge in the constantly- >changing natural world. Our viking forefathers on the other hand, >passed along the lifeskills needed to thrive and survive. These >included sea skills, and great "camping' wisdom for a variety of >extreme weather-related circumstances > >The HBC journals I have read, occasionally are critical of the Orcadian >HBC men. But the criticism was usually written by an englishman, who >was incapable of communicating effectively with our first nations >peoples, whom adored the Orcadians and loathed the English. History >recorded shows that fearless and courageous men alone, blazed the >trails for latter-day immigrants from Britian, and the first choice for >getting the job done was the Orkneymen from Firth and Stennes, >according to all credible historical records in this country. (by the >way, the English finally coughed up their HBC records which now have >their rightful home in Winnipeg, Manitoba.) > >In my family, it was evident that if you lived in Firth, as we did in >Grimbister near Davie Brig, and you wern't the eldest son of a >landowner, your chances of owning ground regardless of how hard you >worked were somewhere between nil and nothing, unless you could win the >heart of an only daughter with sick parents. In our family, on one >occasion, two young men went to Stennes where an HBC boat was set to >sail for the west. One of the young men said, "Go home and tell Ma that >I have gone west with the HBC but I'll be back in five years." That >type of adventurous spirit, passed down from Viking roots, in my mind >is far from the general description of an underachiever. When I meet >resident Orcadians on this site and elsewhere, there is an undertow of >curiosity and even a little envy of those families who came out here, >and slugged it out, swallowing mosquitoes by the pound when they dared >breath, losing their digits to frostbite, and confronting wild beasts >in the Bay area, with the worst of weapons handed out buy the company, >which often blew up in the face of the shooter confronted with a bear, >or whilst gathering meat. > >On August 24, 1782, our own Andrew Davie was captured with other >Orkneymen at fort Prince of Wales on Hudson's Bay. The circumstances >were rather odd, and the company were critical of the Orkneymen. Few of >them were ever trained to fire cannons which were placed on the walls. >I suppose as the French arrived, the lead-butted, chair-smothering >englishmen who commanded the Company from London would have liked it >better if all the Orcadian men fought their hearts out , and died with >their Orkney blood spilling onto the fallen union jack. But they were >survivors. Their conclusion was sort of "Hey, we are here doing our >thing for the company, where few others could. We want to go home in >five years or ten, with our hard earned money, to our families. Dying >at the hands of some beplumed frenchman who dropped in unannunced is >not part of the deal. So why not see if the man has a bottle or two of >brandy aboard, make peace, have a nice caribou and grouse feast with >bluberry pie and thereafter, find our way to the company and explain >that ill equiped as we were to defend it, we chose to live." This >beautiful piece of history underlines the practical thinking of >Orcadians. Also, whereas the English viewed natives here as a sub >species, sort of half human and half bear, the Orcadians learned skills >from them, and took native women for wives, in contrast to the stiff >and haughty Brits. One of our distant relatives, Joseph Isbister, took >a native wife (called country wives) and their son Alexander took a law >degree in Scotland and thereafter championed the cause of Metis in the employ of the company. >I was at a native Pow Wow on Manitoulin Island last weekend, and while >watching the dances, I imagined our forefathers sitting through a >similar gathering, eyeing some brown-eyed maiden, and contriving a plan >to take her off, without having his throat cut in the process. Our >property on Georgian Bay at Janet head, looks north into the cool >waters of the North Shore, and I sat with my daughter-in-law, >discussing how four hundred years ago, voyageurs could have very >cnceivably camped on our expanse of pebble beach, still very much as >natural and untouched as it was then. > >Sorry Sig, but this Thorfin/Kolbein/Grimbister/Borwick/Davie doesn't >like to read the hint that the men who opened the doors in this harsh >country were somehow underachievers. Anyone who thinks so should hop >aboard a wooden boat, sans engine, and travel from Stennes through the >Hudson Straits to Churchill, just for starters. Then try standing in >front of a hungry and riled polar bear with a poor scattergun, and keep >enough composure to make the one shot from this 20 guage disaster >count. Nope, the fact that times were tough on Orkney doesn't make the >people underachievers. The records here, thousands of pages of exciting >factual stories of adventure, paint the truth. Any North American >interested in Orkney and their roots, might well wish to visit Winnipeg >and Fort York, and unearth the contributions achieved by truly >remarkable, unshakeable and tenacious young men with a lust for adventure. >Yours Aye: >Stephen Davie (Canorky with a little native blood too!) >On Saturday, August 7, 2004, at 07:40 AM, Bill Irvine wrote: > >> "Jo Ben harps on about the laziness of the Orcadians a few times" >> this does not explain why fully 60 percent of indentured Hudson's Bay >>servants in Canada by the eighteenth century were Orcadians. >> bill >> p.s. unless it was the Bay's intent to hire only underachievers. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Sigurd Towrie <sigurd@orkneyjar.com> >> Date: Saturday, August 7, 2004 1:34 am >> Subject: RE: [<orcadia>] Jo Ben's Descriptio Insularum Orchadiarum >> >>> On 07 August 2004 05:22, Clint McInnes wrote: >>> >>>> This is brilliant and a real insight. Can you tell me please what >>>> 'slothful drones' are...???? " uneducated people of the land who are >>>> of bad habits, maybe >>>> dirty and >>>> of general moral decay " ... I assume...????? >>> >>> Indeed. Jo Ben harps on about the laziness of the Orcadians a few >>> times. >>>> and what then does >>>> 'Sheipies' translate to please....???? >>> >>> I'm still looking into this one. On first glance it would appear >>> to relate >>> to "sheep" - however I suspect there's more to it and that it's a >>> Norn term >>> the author didn't understand so simply wrote what it sounded like. >>> >>> -- Sigurd Towrie >>> Blackhall - Kirbister - Stromness - Orkney >>> Heritage of Orkney: www.orkneyjar.com >>> Home: sigurd@orkneyjar.com >>> Work: sigurd.towrie@orcadian.co.uk >>> >>> >>> ==== ORCADIA Mailing List ==== >>> To unsubscribe from the Orcadia mailing list, send an e-mail with >>> the word >>> 'unsubscribe' in the message body to orcadia-l-request@rootsweb.com >>> >>> >> >> >> ==== ORCADIA Mailing List ==== >> To unsubscribe from the Orcadia mailing list, send an e-mail with the >>word >> 'unsubscribe' in the message body to orcadia-l-request@rootsweb.com >> > > >==== ORCADIA Mailing List ==== >To unsubscribe from the Orcadia mailing list, send an e-mail with the word >'unsubscribe' in the message body to orcadia-l-request@rootsweb.com > -- M.E.McCarty 13 North Main Street Tel: +44(0)1988 402062 Wigtown Scotland DG8 9HL

Sigurd, you will know Descripto Insularum Orcadiarum: by Jo Ben. Translation with notes published by Scottish History Society 1908 ppvi-xiii, 302-323. Earliest contemporary account of Orkney to which GMB referres in his 1952 brochure about Orkney, which later became the more elaborated Orkney Tapestry. I think it would be helpfull for the understanding of the text to have some of your comments on the notes shown there ... :-) Wolfgang

On 07 August 2004 22:56, Clint McInnes wrote: > I wonder where Jo Ben came from...????? It is generally accepted he was a clergyman from Scotland, perhaps one John Bonar, who was a minister in North Ronaldsay in the 1590s.. -- Sigurd Towrie Blackhall - Kirbister - Stromness - Orkney Heritage of Orkney: www.orkneyjar.com Home: sigurd@orkneyjar.com Work: sigurd.towrie@orcadian.co.uk