Oddly enough, Orcadians say Scapa Flow, rhyming with show but more usually refer to it as the Flow, rhyming with how. -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Mike Clouston Sent: 27 August 2007 10:38 To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [ORCADIA] How now Scapa Flow? On 27/08/2007 10:12:00, Norman Tulloch ([email protected]) wrote: > In "Orkney, The Magnetic North" by John Gunn, first published in 1932, > there is the following: > > "The next important channel separates the Mainland from the South Isles. > It begins on the west as Hoy Sound, and then widens out into the > expanse of Scapa Flow, with an area of more than fifty square miles. > (Note that 'Flow' is pronounced to rhyme with 'how'.)" > > Now > I've always pronounced "Flow" to rhyme with "show". Is the how/Flow > pronunciation still the usual one in Orkney? I have always pronounced it as in "how", Norman, except when using my "pan loaf" accent :-) -- Mike Clouston ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

On 27/08/2007 10:12:00, Norman Tulloch ([email protected]) wrote: > In "Orkney, The Magnetic North" by John Gunn, first published in 1932, > there is the following: > > "The next important channel separates the Mainland from the South Isles. > It begins on the west as Hoy Sound, and then widens out into the > expanse of Scapa Flow, with an area of more than fifty square miles. > (Note that 'Flow' is pronounced to rhyme with 'how'.)" > > Now > I've always pronounced "Flow" to rhyme with "show". Is the how/Flow > pronunciation still the usual one in Orkney? I have always pronounced it as in "how", Norman, except when using my "pan loaf" accent :-) -- Mike Clouston

In "Orkney, The Magnetic North" by John Gunn, first published in 1932, there is the following: "The next important channel separates the Mainland from the South Isles. It begins on the west as Hoy Sound, and then widens out into the expanse of Scapa Flow, with an area of more than fifty square miles. (Note that 'Flow' is pronounced to rhyme with 'how'.)" Now I've always pronounced "Flow" to rhyme with "show". Is the how/Flow pronunciation still the usual one in Orkney? Norman Tulloch

Maybe from the sound the seals make??? Ork ork.... Onomatopoeia reigns Anne On 8/27/07, dear dron <[email protected]> wrote: > So now we know about Ork-/Orc-. But it's still interesting where the element > -n- in Orkney/Orkneyjar comes from?

Absolutely "Latinized"is correct. >From Sigurd's introduction to the Orkneyjar site: "Pronounced "orc-nee-yahr", the name is generally taken to mean Seal Islands - the Norsemen's interpretation of the islands' older name. However, the Ork- element predates the Norse interpretation by centuries. First mentioned by the Roman writer Diodurus Siculus in the first century BC, Diodurus referred to the islands as the Orchades, a name echoed by the Roman geographer Pliny, who calls them Orcades." One of my Orcadian family names, Slater, was Sclater when my great-great grandmother Ann Sclater was born (1803), and before that was Slagtir, which I have been told means "the dark ones"..... Now, a question for you, Andrei: What is the meaning of "dear dron"?? Anne, polyglot lover of words and names On 8/27/07, dear dron <[email protected]> wrote: > I think the word "Orcadian" is a Latinised (is there such a word in > English?) form of this word, where Latin uses mostly "c" instead of "k". > "Orkadian" could be a compromise to "Orkneyjar" or something of that kind. > In fact I've never met such a spelling myself. >

The song, Lonely Scapa Flow, was first sung by Orcadian Angus Findlater, who pronounced the word floe. not flow. sue hamilton ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message --------------------------------- Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.

In 22 years of coming to Orkney, I've never heard it rhymed with how, whether as part of Scape Flow or just as the Flow. Jim --------------------------------------------- This message was sent using the UIA Web Mail Server. ULTIMATE Internet Access, Inc http://www.uia.net/

Royce Perry wrote: > Thanks Norman. That's not too surprising actually. We tend to think > of people in that time period as being tied to one spot or the other. > For the ordinary people that was pretty much true. Unfortunately we > have very few (if any) records about the life of the ordinary folk. > Most of what we have (like the Sagas) only gives us an insight into > the life of the upper classes. And they were mobile to a very high > degree. Same is true across most cultural and geographic boundaries. > Ancient folks just got out and about the world a lot more than we > normally think they did. Especially in locals were they had access to > waterways or open seas. R At the back of my copy of the Orkneyinga Saga there's an index of the places mentioned during the narrative. Of course, most of them are in Orkney and Shetland or in Norway and Sweden, but some others are Constantinople, Crete, Durazzo (now in Albania), Edinburgh, Dublin, France, the Holy Land, Wales, Puglia in Italy, Rome, Saxony (in Germany), Gibraltar and Spain. These people certainly got around. I assume that ordinary folk would have been on these journeys too: after all, men would have been needed to crew the ships and to fight. (Let's not forget that traditional raping and pillaging too!) However, at a later date it seems that at least some of the inhabitants of Orkney became much less mobile. A paragraph from Maggie Fergusson's biography of George Mackay Brown: "Just before the First World War, an Edinburgh professor, Sir Thomas Clouston, had made a study of mental weakness in the Orkney parish of Harray in which he had been born and spent his childhood. Clouston concluded that though these were 'country people, decent folks for the most part, hard working, thrifty, few very poor, healthily money-loving' and 'strangers to vice in its grossest forms', excessive intermarriage over many generations was responsible for half the families in the parish betraying clear symptoms of idiocy, congenital imbecility, epilepsy, or what he termed 'ordinary unsoundness of mind'." However, I'm not aware that Harray is nowadays a particular hotspot for idiocy and congenital imbecility (though some, perhaps, might disagree)! I guess the available gene pool has been widened in various ways — by the advent of the bicycle and later of the motor car, for example, as well as by the influence of two World Wars and the increasing numbers of ferry-loupers*. Norman Tulloch *incomers to Orkney from elsewhere

You are right, it was mostly Swedes. Occasionally there were Norwegian, Icelanders (don't know about Orcadians), but they weren't many. Unless Charles meant fishermen of our times ;)) Andrei 2007/8/26, Royce Perry <[email protected]>: > > Humm,,I had always thought it was mostly the Swedish tribes that went east > inland towards Russia. Nothing to say that Norse from Orkney couldn't > have,,I had just never thought of it before. Always thought of the Norse > as > going west and south out of Norway towards Iceland/Greenland and Shetland, > Orkney, and Scotland > Anybody got any evidence on the matter? > R >

I think the author was in thrall to a German muse..... I noticed that as well. She's wrong, we're right Anne On 8/26/07, Evelyn Hlabse <[email protected]> wrote: > I just finished reading it and I wish I could remember who recommended > it - it is excellent. I just loved every minute of it. A wonderful > mystery and at the same time almost a traveloque of the mainland of > Orkney. My husband (not an Orcadian) is now reading it. I did have > one question - in the book the author uses the spelling "Orkadian". Is > this correct? I always thought it was Orcadian.

Royce Perry wrote: > Humm,,I had always thought it was mostly the Swedish tribes that went east > inland towards Russia. Nothing to say that Norse from Orkney couldn't > have,,I had just never thought of it before. Always thought of the Norse as > going west and south out of Norway towards Iceland/Greenland and Shetland, > Orkney, and Scotland > Anybody got any evidence on the matter? > R The Orkneyinga Saga certainly suggests that there was some contact between the Orkney Norse and Russia. Rognvald Brusisson or Brusason eventually became an Earl of Orkney and was killed on Papa Stronsay in about 1046, betrayed by the barking of his little dog. However, the Saga also describes earlier events in his life. Some heavily edited quotations from the translation by Palsson and Edwards: "Now we come back to Rognvald Brusason. He took part in the Battle of Stiklestad in which King Olaf the Saint was killed, but Rognvald got away with other fugitives. He rescued from the battle King Olaf's brother, Harald Sigurdarson, who was badly wounded. Rognvald left him with a peasant to recover from his wounds and travelled east over the Kjolen Mountains to Jamtland, and from there to Sweden where he met King Onund. Harald stayed with the peasant until his wounds were healed, then with the peasant's son as guide he made his way east to Jamtland and from there to Sweden, travelling secretly... In Sweden Harald went to see Rognvald Brusason. Then they travelled east together to Russia along with many of the troops who had been with King Olaf. They kept on the move until they reached Novgorod, where King Jaroslav gave them a kindly welcome on account of the holy King Olaf. All the Norwegians joined up with Earl Eilif, the son of Earl Rognvald Ulfsson, to take over the defences of Russia, and it was there that Rognvald Brusason stayed when King Harald Sigurdarson went to Byzantium, defending the country for several years during the summer but staying in Novgorod over winter..." Rognvald returned to Orkney in around 1038: "Earl Rognvald Brusason sailed west to Orkney, went at once to the estates his father had owned and sent a message to his uncle Earl Thorfinn claiming the third of the islands that had belonged to his father. Moreover, he added, King Magnus had granted him in fee the third of Orkney that had belonged to King Olaf, so that he was making claim not just to one-third, but two... Now, at that time Thorfinn was having a great deal of trouble with the Hebrideans and the Irish and needed reinforcements badly, so in his reply he told the messengers that Rognvald ought certainly to take control of that third of the islands which was his by right..." I think that's the only reference to Russia in the Orkneyinga Saga, though, so I don't know how frequent such contact was. Norman Tulloch

I just finished reading it and I wish I could remember who recommended it - it is excellent. I just loved every minute of it. A wonderful mystery and at the same time almost a traveloque of the mainland of Orkney. My husband (not an Orcadian) is now reading it. I did have one question - in the book the author uses the spelling "Orkadian". Is this correct? I always thought it was Orcadian. Evelyn, Emma, Robbie & Spencer Sweet Pea Digory waiting at the Bridge (12/8/89 - 11/8/96) Help support Corgi Aid -- http://www.corgiaid.org/ Ohio Corgi Picnic - June 22, 2008 in Marion, Ohio http://homepage.mac.com/evelynhlabse/Home/home.html If God brings you to it, He will bring you through it.

I was just checking the archives, and it was in March 2004 that I was looking for a copy of the Norn also. At that time, Brinnoven was supposed to have published in 2003, but was behind schedule. I tried emailing them several times and never did get a reply. I did eventually find a copy on Abebooks by signing up on their link of books that are out of stock but in demand. Be prepared to wait! Good luck. Dan "However, Andrei, it would be fair to point out that if you're going to wait for the reprint, Brinnoven can be slow to publish, though their books are well-produced and attractive. Don't assume that they will actually produce the book in August/September; it could be very much later. They sell through eBay UK but no doubt also through other outlets such as "The Orcadian" bookshop as well: http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Brinnoven" Norman Tulloch ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Yes, it's not a problem to order a book from UK&USA, but I've looked at Amazon/Barnes&Nobles and this book seems to be deleted everywhere, so I took the last option to ask Orcadians.. But as I've heard that now it's being printed again, I'd rather give up these searches ;)) Andrei

dear dron wrote: > Yes, it's not a problem to order a book from UK&USA, but I've looked > at Amazon/Barnes&Nobles and this book seems to be deleted everywhere, > so I took the last option to ask Orcadians.. But as I've heard that > now it's being printed again, I'd rather give up these searches ;)) > > Andrei I think it's in very short supply anyway. I can't find a copy listed anywhere at the moment. Back in April a copy of the 1929 first edition went for £70 at the Orkney Auction Mart sale of Orkney books, while at the Graemeshall sale one went for £120. Not cheap! See "Sales Dates" here: http://www.orkneymart.co.uk/enter.html However, Andrei, it would be fair to point out that if you're going to wait for the reprint, Brinnoven can be slow to publish, though their books are well-produced and attractive. Don't assume that they will actually produce the book in August/September; it could be very much later. They sell through eBay UK but no doubt also through other outlets such as "The Orcadian" bookshop as well: http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Brinnoven Norman Tulloch

Plenty orcadian viking went russia, and still some today Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device -----Original Message----- From: "dear dron" <[email protected]> Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 23:46:18 To:[email protected] Subject: Re: [ORCADIA] Marwick's "Orkney Norn" Yes, it's not a problem to order a book from UK&USA, but I've looked at Amazon/Barnes&Nobles and this book seems to be deleted everywhere, so I took the last option to ask Orcadians.. But as I've heard that now it's being printed again, I'd rather give up these searches ;)) Andrei ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thank you Moi, I remember I had a bad experience with UKBookWorld last year... I think I'd rather wait for the re-issue of "Orkney Norn", hopefully it will be published soon. All the best, Andrei 2007/8/25, Moi McCarty <[email protected]>: > > Hello Andrei > Searches via Booksearch are usually pretty good because they cover the > major book selling sites, others swear by another called addall. One > site isn't listed by those sites is ukbookworld. It doesn't have the > Marwick at the moment but it can be a useful place to find scarce UK > books because some booksellers only list there. > http://www.http://ukbookworld.com/cgi-bin/search.pl > Moi

Normally such pages are frontends that just redirect to places like Amazon which tell you in their turn that your wanted title is not available. Andrei P.S. To introduce myself, who subscribed to this list a week ago, I've long had an interest in former viking territories in North Atlantic: Iceland, Faroes, Shetland and Orkney since I was a teenager. As I'm a linguist who speaks Icelandic and Faroese (well, I lived in Iceland for 4-5 years) and a bit of Scottish Gaelic, the linguistic side of cultural heritage of such places as Orkney (be it Orkney Scots, Norn or remains of their predecessors if any) has been of priority interest to me apart from other things which I probably know less about. I've never been to your archipelago but I'm looking forward to visiting it in a couple of years. 2007/8/25, Norman Tulloch <[email protected]>: > > > Moi, Bookfinder seems to lead to a copy offered by deastore.com. > > However, the Deastore site itself lists the book as "Not available". > > http://www.deastore.com/product.asp?productid=BD182557765324057 > > > Norman Tulloch > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hello Norman, Thanks for that link, at least good to know it's in the pipeline. I can access the book as a microfilm in our library (I live in Moscow) but it's a very hard job to leaf it forward (to put it politely :)) ), so I decided to find its hardcopy somewhere :)) Mr. Charlie Tait, was it you who created a website about Shetland dialect or it's just a common name in Shetland? Andrei 2007/8/25, Norman Tulloch <[email protected]>: > > dear dron wrote: > > Dear friends, > > > > I have a question, is the book "Orkney Norn" by Hugh Marwick available > in > > book stores or second-hand sales in Orkney? > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Andrei > > > > I believe that Brinnoven produced an edition back in 1995. On their > website they currently say, "The A4 edition is out of print. A new > edition is due August/September 2007." > http://www.brinnoven.co.uk/#anchor622259 > > The new edition *should* be available quite soon, then, but I won't be > surprised if there are delays, and perhaps quite lengthy ones. > > I had a look on Abebooks UK but I couldn't find any second-hand copies > listed there. > > > Norman Tulloch > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Norman Tulloch wrote: > I don't know if you recognise the place-names of the Well of Kildinguie > or Guiyidn (it could just possibly be Cuiyidn). Of course, these names > may now be spelled in a different way or else have just disappeared from > the knowledge of Stronsay people. Nevertheless, I wonder if the "large > commodious house", once occupied by the parish minister, could be what > you're now referring to as a manse? If so, it was presumably built > in the 1750s, since the Statistical Account says it was built "about > forty years ago". > > However, now that I've had a look at an Ordnance Survey map from 1895, I > think I see the manse you're referring to, just south of Whitehall: > http://tinyurl.com/yo5kt7 > > If that's the one, then it isn't the "large commodious house" and I've > no idea when it was built, but it seems that the 1791-99 Statistical > Account does refer to it. I'm becoming somewhat confused by all these > various manses, though! (You'll also see the Well of Kildinguie marked > on the map. Possibly you might like to drink its waters, and then try a > wholesome and delicious morsel of dulse?) > > Could the "large commodious house" be Hunton? I've no idea what it looks > like, but it does seem to be an old house. Kildinguie or Guiyidn - see Sigurd's webpage at <http://www.orkneyjar.com/tradition/sacredwater/kildinguie.htm>. The old manse is large - three floors with several quite large outbuildings - so it could well be the "large commodious house". The present Hunton farm buildings are quite large but most are comparitively modern and the farmhouse is nowhere near as large as the old manse. -- Bruce Fletcher Stronsay, Orkney <www.stronsay.co.uk/claremont> "99 percent of lawyers give the rest a bad name"