I have spent 9 summers in Orkney and I just talk like I normally would and the locals do not appear to have any problems understanding me. In fact, they like to hear the American accent and laugh (in a nice way) when try to interject one of their pronunciations and mess it up. They seem better able to figure out what I'm saying than the reverse! After I've been there awhile, sometimes local pronunciation just comes naturally (doon, toon, sooth, etc.) but I don't attempt to speak like a local. Listening to Radio Orkney has helped me in my understanding of what is said. Every year I learn new words but it is still tricky listening to a group of Orcadians speaking to one another! Peggy (a Vermonter living in West Virginia where there are strong southern drawls) --------------------------------- Check out the hottest 2008 models today at Yahoo! Autos.

Karen, you are so right. Though equally it is important to retain the way things are said and not give in to the interpretations of Victorian cartographers. Cheers Steven p.s. you should hear how people pronounce 'Heddle' (I go for 'Haydl' myself- it could be wrong!) ----- Original Message ----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 3:26 PM Subject: Re: [ORCADIA] Brough of Birsay One has to rehearse diligently before a trip to Orkney to properly say "I went from InverNESS to STROMness." It's all too easy to make them both alike, one way or the other, or to get it backword which will offend everyone. Of course I'm not offended that no one there can pronounce my name "correctly." There are really more important things to worry about. Karen In a message dated 9/27/2007 9:21:02 A.M. Central Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: On Sep 26, 2007, at 7:14 PM, Steven Heddle wrote: > Also Stromness is not 'Strohm-ness' but 'Strumnis!' Is this an implied change in stress, from StromNESS to STROMness? We need to Skype some of these conversations so we can both see and hear one another! Janice Langland _______________________________________ Orcadia Group Photo Album http://tinyurl.com/28bx9x ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com _______________________________________ Orcadia Group Photo Album http://tinyurl.com/28bx9x ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I'd favour STRUMnis myself, perhaps equality of stress, but never put the stress on ness (as it were). I'd record myself speaking the email, but it would break out into a war amongst the Orcadians as to whether the Kirkwall way of saying things is right (for the record, it is...). Cheers Steven ----- Original Message ----- From: Janice Langland To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 3:19 PM Subject: Re: [ORCADIA] Brough of Birsay On Sep 26, 2007, at 7:14 PM, Steven Heddle wrote: > Also Stromness is not 'Strohm-ness' but 'Strumnis!' Is this an implied change in stress, from StromNESS to STROMness? We need to Skype some of these conversations so we can both see and hear one another! Janice Langland _______________________________________ Orcadia Group Photo Album http://tinyurl.com/28bx9x ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

On 27/09/2007 Janice Langland wrote: > This takes me back to Sigurd's Word of the Week, which stopped > > before we got to T is for Trulls. <ROFL> Love it. Another word that can cause confusion is 'wait', pronounced 'wet'. I remember an Orkney crofter being interviewed on TV a while ago. He told his collie dog to "wet there noo" - "wait there now". The interviewer asked him why he was telling his dog to pee on the floor :-) -- Mike Clouston

YEZnabi Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device -----Original Message----- From: Janice Langland <[email protected]> Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 09:19:15 To:[email protected] Subject: Re: [ORCADIA] Brough of Birsay Thanks, Steven. That was very helpful. Now, can you please add the accents? For instance, is Yesnabee pronounced YESnabee, yesNAbee or yesnaBEE? Janice Langland On Sep 26, 2007, at 7:14 PM, Steven Heddle wrote: > No, it's like 'broch', with the -och bit as in the Scottish > pronunciation of loch. > And Birsay is pronounced 'Birsee' > And 'of' is prounced 'oh'. So 'broch-o birsee' > > In general the '-ay' at the end of island names is pronounced '- > ee', and even Hoy is more like 'Ho-ee'. Also Harray is pronounced > the same as Harry. And Yesnaby is 'Yesnabee'. You get the idea. > > Also Stromness is not 'Strohm-ness' but 'Strumnis!' > Finstown is 'Finstoon' > Dounby is 'Doonby' > Holm (the parish) is 'Ham' > Holm (as in small island) is 'home' > Deerness is 'Dernis' > KIrkwall is 'the Toon' > The rest of the UK (apart from Shetland) is 'Sooth' > The nearest part of which is 'Scotland', which we will only > grudgingly admit to be being part of after a major sporting success > for that country. > > So placenames are straightforward enough. Now lets move onto common > areas of confusion (may vary from parish to parish)... > > 'How' is 'hoo' > 'Who' is 'whar' e.g. 'Whar's that?'- 'Who are they?'' > 'Where' is also 'whar', but with an extra 'at' often added e.g. > 'Whar's that at?'- 'Where is that?' > 'How?' is also often 'Whut wiy?' e.g. 'Whut wiy hid?- 'How has this > come to pass?' > > This takes me back to Sigurd's Word of the Week, which stopped > before we got to T is for Trulls. > > Cheers > Steven > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Janice Langland > To: [email protected] > Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 10:54 PM > Subject: Re: [ORCADIA] Brough of Birsay > > > I've always heard it BRUFF, like the Three Billy Goats Gruff. > > Janice > > > On Sep 26, 2007, at 5:44 PM, Isabella Moreland wrote: > >> How is Brough pronounced, please ? >> Isabella >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: [email protected] >> Date: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 6:06 am >> Subject: Re: [ORCADIA] Brough of Birsay >> To: [email protected] >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Anyone trying to follow this conversation will think you have to >>> dance the >>> way over!! Well a few hops and skips were necessary >>> anyway. But worth every >>> step. Don't anyone who hasn't been get discouraged by all >>> this. It's an >>> experience one shouldn't miss. >>> >>> Karen >>> >>> I >>> >>> in a message dated 9/26/2007 7:58:38 A.M. Central Daylight >>> Time, >>> [email protected] writes: >>> >>> >>> Dear me, Karen, you led me astray with your misleading >>> subject line! OK, >>> here's how I responded: >>> >>> >>> Well, as you may well recall, it's not always such a great >>> way to get to >>> the Brough, Karen: >>> >>> http://www.orcadian.co.uk/archive/2002/broughbirsay.htm >>> >>> Norman Tulloch >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________ >>> Orcadia Group Photo Album >>> http://tinyurl.com/28bx9x >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email >>> to >>> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>> the quotes in the subject and the >>> body of the message >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ************************************** See what's new at >>> http://www.aol.com_______________________________________ >>> Orcadia Group Photo Album >>> http://tinyurl.com/28bx9x >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ORCADIA- >>> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> Isabella >> _______________________________________ >> Orcadia Group Photo Album >> http://tinyurl.com/28bx9x >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ORCADIA- >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes >> in the subject and the body of the message > > _______________________________________ > Orcadia Group Photo Album > http://tinyurl.com/28bx9x > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ORCADIA- > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > _______________________________________ > Orcadia Group Photo Album > http://tinyurl.com/28bx9x > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ORCADIA- > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message _______________________________________ Orcadia Group Photo Album http://tinyurl.com/28bx9x ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Mike Clouston wrote: > Happy memories of Birsay. Well, Birsay's the best place in Orkney, in my opinion. I'll admit there are some other quite good bits too, though! Incidentally, I don't think the bird carver man is still carving. I went into the gallery last September thinking that I might buy a bird carving but there were none for sale. Possibly I was just too late in the season and he'd sold out, but I got the impression that he'd moved on to painting rather than carving. I didn't actually speak to him, though; it was Lesley his partner (?) that I saw. A very pleasant woman, I thought. He now seems to be painting and producing ceramic birds. http://web.mac.com/johnthompson6/yellowbird_gallery/home.html ^^Quite a slow website, that, or maybe it was just my internet connection that was at fault. Norman Tulloch

Thanks as well. Last time I was over, I know I just shredded the pronunciation of all of those. David On 9/27/07, Jacqueline Howell <[email protected]> wrote: > > Steven - > > I really appreciate the wit of the sentence beginning "The nearest part > of which..." > > Thanks! > > And thanks everyone for the pronunciation clues...coaching... > > Jackie > > > Margaret Bainton wrote: > > Thank you, Steven for the pronunciations! > > Peggy > > > > Steven Heddle <[email protected]> wrote: > > No, it's like 'broch', with the -och bit as in the Scottish > pronunciation of loch. > > And Birsay is pronounced 'Birsee' > > And 'of' is prounced 'oh'. So 'broch-o birsee' > > > > In general the '-ay' at the end of island names is pronounced '-ee', and > even Hoy is more like 'Ho-ee'. Also Harray is pronounced the same as Harry. > And Yesnaby is 'Yesnabee'. You get the idea. > > > > Also Stromness is not 'Strohm-ness' but 'Strumnis!' > > Finstown is 'Finstoon' > > Dounby is 'Doonby' > > Holm (the parish) is 'Ham' > > Holm (as in small island) is 'home' > > Deerness is 'Dernis' > > KIrkwall is 'the Toon' > > The rest of the UK (apart from Shetland) is 'Sooth' > > The nearest part of which is 'Scotland', which we will only grudgingly > admit to be being part of after a major sporting success for that country. > > > > So placenames are straightforward enough. Now lets move onto common > areas of confusion (may vary from parish to parish)... > > > > 'How' is 'hoo' > > 'Who' is 'whar' e.g. 'Whar's that?'- 'Who are they?'' > > 'Where' is also 'whar', but with an extra 'at' often added e.g. 'Whar's > that at?'- 'Where is that?' > > 'How?' is also often 'Whut wiy?' e.g. 'Whut wiy hid?- 'How has this come > to pass?' > > > > This takes me back to Sigurd's Word of the Week, which stopped before we > got to T is for Trulls. > > > > Cheers > > Steven > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Janice Langland > > To: [email protected] > > Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 10:54 PM > > Subject: Re: [ORCADIA] Brough of Birsay > > > > > > I've always heard it BRUFF, like the Three Billy Goats Gruff. > > > > Janice > > > > > > On Sep 26, 2007, at 5:44 PM, Isabella Moreland wrote: > > > > > >> How is Brough pronounced, please ? > >> Isabella > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: [email protected] > >> Date: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 6:06 am > >> Subject: Re: [ORCADIA] Brough of Birsay > >> To: [email protected] > >> > >> > >>> > >>> > >>> Anyone trying to follow this conversation will think you have to > >>> dance the > >>> way over!! Well a few hops and skips were necessary > >>> anyway. But worth every > >>> step. Don't anyone who hasn't been get discouraged by all > >>> this. It's an > >>> experience one shouldn't miss. > >>> > >>> Karen > >>> > >>> I > >>> > >>> in a message dated 9/26/2007 7:58:38 A.M. Central Daylight > >>> Time, > >>> [email protected] writes: > >>> > >>> > >>> Dear me, Karen, you led me astray with your misleading > >>> subject line! OK, > >>> here's how I responded: > >>> > >>> > >>> Well, as you may well recall, it's not always such a great > >>> way to get to > >>> the Brough, Karen: > >>> > >>> http://www.orcadian.co.uk/archive/2002/broughbirsay.htm > >>> > >>> Norman Tulloch > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________ > >>> Orcadia Group Photo Album > >>> http://tinyurl.com/28bx9x > >>> ------------------------------- > >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email > >>> to > >>> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > >>> the quotes in the subject and the > >>> body of the message > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> ************************************** See what's new at > >>> http://www.aol.com_______________________________________ > >>> Orcadia Group Photo Album > >>> http://tinyurl.com/28bx9x > >>> ------------------------------- > >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ORCADIA- > >>> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>> > >>> > >> Isabella > >> _______________________________________ > >> Orcadia Group Photo Album > >> http://tinyurl.com/28bx9x > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ORCADIA- > >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > >> in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > > > _______________________________________ > > Orcadia Group Photo Album > > http://tinyurl.com/28bx9x > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > _______________________________________ > > Orcadia Group Photo Album > > http://tinyurl.com/28bx9x > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: > mail, news, photos & more. > > _______________________________________ > > Orcadia Group Photo Album > > http://tinyurl.com/28bx9x > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > -- > Jacqueline Howell > 510 302-4200 > 510 302-4242 FAX > > Receptionist/Asst. Site Administrator > WestEd > 300 Lakeside Drive, 25th Fl > Oakland, CA 94612 > > > > _______________________________________ > Orcadia Group Photo Album > http://tinyurl.com/28bx9x > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Norman Tulloch wrote: > Charles Tait wrote: > > >> Obviously access by boats is a possibility but I think Thorfinns place and kirk >> were at The Palace. >> >> Pronounciation of place names is important... >> > > What would you say is the current pronunciation of The Palace, Charles? > > Hugh Marwick in "The Place-Names of Birsay" refers to it several times > as "The Place". Is that how it's pronounced nowadays? I think I've only > heard it pronounced as The Palace, and I seem to remember that's how the > Comloquoys at the Palace Farm pronounced it when we stayed there years > ago. Maybe that was just because they were talking to visitors and being > extra polite or posh, though. As a peedie boy in Stromness we spent our holidays at Chocolate Cottage in Birsay, where the bird carver man is now. The village near the beach was always known as The Place but the ruins were always the Palace. Sweets were still rationed in those days. My brother Ken and I used to walk to the village to get our ration. The man behind the counter (Spence?) had very poor eyesight and used to hold our ration books very close to his face to help him see to cut out the correct coupons. He would ask us our names, although he knew us and our parents perfectly well. We would tell him. His reply never varied - "Good God Almighty! What names to go to bed with!" :-) As I grew up and became a member of the Stromness Boys' Brigade, our summer camp would often be on the Links at Birsay. I caught my first trout in the Boardhouse Burn just above the bridge there, in among the seggies (yellow irises). Alongside me here on my desk is a scallop shell overflowing with "grottie buckie" (cowrie) shells collected over the years from the beach at the Point of Buckquoy at the landward end of the causeway that crosses to the Brough. Incidentally, the bacon rolls and tea sold from the van in the car park there are worth trying - excellent value. Happy memories of Birsay. -- Mike Clouston

Charles Tait wrote: > Obviously access by boats is a possibility but I think Thorfinns place and kirk > were at The Palace. > > Pronounciation of place names is important... What would you say is the current pronunciation of The Palace, Charles? Hugh Marwick in "The Place-Names of Birsay" refers to it several times as "The Place". Is that how it's pronounced nowadays? I think I've only heard it pronounced as The Palace, and I seem to remember that's how the Comloquoys at the Palace Farm pronounced it when we stayed there years ago. Maybe that was just because they were talking to visitors and being extra polite or posh, though. Norman Tulloch

One has to rehearse diligently before a trip to Orkney to properly say "I went from InverNESS to STROMness." It's all too easy to make them both alike, one way or the other, or to get it backword which will offend everyone. Of course I'm not offended that no one there can pronounce my name "correctly." There are really more important things to worry about. Karen In a message dated 9/27/2007 9:21:02 A.M. Central Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: On Sep 26, 2007, at 7:14 PM, Steven Heddle wrote: > Also Stromness is not 'Strohm-ness' but 'Strumnis!' Is this an implied change in stress, from StromNESS to STROMness? We need to Skype some of these conversations so we can both see and hear one another! Janice Langland _______________________________________ Orcadia Group Photo Album http://tinyurl.com/28bx9x ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

On Sep 26, 2007, at 7:14 PM, Steven Heddle wrote: > Also Stromness is not 'Strohm-ness' but 'Strumnis!' Is this an implied change in stress, from StromNESS to STROMness? We need to Skype some of these conversations so we can both see and hear one another! Janice Langland

Whether the Brough was joined on 1,000 y ago it was clearly an important placethen. Most likely a large part of the settlement has gone but the slipways suggest that maybe not that much. Also it probable monastic status would fit well with isolation. The path was much shorter and narrower until recently. Obviously access by boats is a possibility but I think Thorfinns place and kirk were at The Palace. Pronounciation of place names is important with OIC officials being particularly remiss eg Crowness is really Crowenis Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device

Thanks, Steven. That was very helpful. Now, can you please add the accents? For instance, is Yesnabee pronounced YESnabee, yesNAbee or yesnaBEE? Janice Langland On Sep 26, 2007, at 7:14 PM, Steven Heddle wrote: > No, it's like 'broch', with the -och bit as in the Scottish > pronunciation of loch. > And Birsay is pronounced 'Birsee' > And 'of' is prounced 'oh'. So 'broch-o birsee' > > In general the '-ay' at the end of island names is pronounced '- > ee', and even Hoy is more like 'Ho-ee'. Also Harray is pronounced > the same as Harry. And Yesnaby is 'Yesnabee'. You get the idea. > > Also Stromness is not 'Strohm-ness' but 'Strumnis!' > Finstown is 'Finstoon' > Dounby is 'Doonby' > Holm (the parish) is 'Ham' > Holm (as in small island) is 'home' > Deerness is 'Dernis' > KIrkwall is 'the Toon' > The rest of the UK (apart from Shetland) is 'Sooth' > The nearest part of which is 'Scotland', which we will only > grudgingly admit to be being part of after a major sporting success > for that country. > > So placenames are straightforward enough. Now lets move onto common > areas of confusion (may vary from parish to parish)... > > 'How' is 'hoo' > 'Who' is 'whar' e.g. 'Whar's that?'- 'Who are they?'' > 'Where' is also 'whar', but with an extra 'at' often added e.g. > 'Whar's that at?'- 'Where is that?' > 'How?' is also often 'Whut wiy?' e.g. 'Whut wiy hid?- 'How has this > come to pass?' > > This takes me back to Sigurd's Word of the Week, which stopped > before we got to T is for Trulls. > > Cheers > Steven > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Janice Langland > To: [email protected] > Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 10:54 PM > Subject: Re: [ORCADIA] Brough of Birsay > > > I've always heard it BRUFF, like the Three Billy Goats Gruff. > > Janice > > > On Sep 26, 2007, at 5:44 PM, Isabella Moreland wrote: > >> How is Brough pronounced, please ? >> Isabella >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: [email protected] >> Date: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 6:06 am >> Subject: Re: [ORCADIA] Brough of Birsay >> To: [email protected] >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Anyone trying to follow this conversation will think you have to >>> dance the >>> way over!! Well a few hops and skips were necessary >>> anyway. But worth every >>> step. Don't anyone who hasn't been get discouraged by all >>> this. It's an >>> experience one shouldn't miss. >>> >>> Karen >>> >>> I >>> >>> in a message dated 9/26/2007 7:58:38 A.M. Central Daylight >>> Time, >>> [email protected] writes: >>> >>> >>> Dear me, Karen, you led me astray with your misleading >>> subject line! OK, >>> here's how I responded: >>> >>> >>> Well, as you may well recall, it's not always such a great >>> way to get to >>> the Brough, Karen: >>> >>> http://www.orcadian.co.uk/archive/2002/broughbirsay.htm >>> >>> Norman Tulloch >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________ >>> Orcadia Group Photo Album >>> http://tinyurl.com/28bx9x >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email >>> to >>> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>> the quotes in the subject and the >>> body of the message >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ************************************** See what's new at >>> http://www.aol.com_______________________________________ >>> Orcadia Group Photo Album >>> http://tinyurl.com/28bx9x >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ORCADIA- >>> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> Isabella >> _______________________________________ >> Orcadia Group Photo Album >> http://tinyurl.com/28bx9x >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ORCADIA- >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes >> in the subject and the body of the message > > _______________________________________ > Orcadia Group Photo Album > http://tinyurl.com/28bx9x > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ORCADIA- > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > _______________________________________ > Orcadia Group Photo Album > http://tinyurl.com/28bx9x > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ORCADIA- > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message

I grew up in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, now a modestly sophisticated town, but in the 1940s and '50s best known for farms. Our milk, still delivered by a horse-drawn cart as late as 1950 (when it was becoming really dangerous for the milkman in the suburban neighborhoods), always tasted like onions in the early spring... I do NOT miss that! Anne Ardmore, PA On 9/26/07, Stella Archibald <[email protected]> wrote: >The milk always tasted different in the winter time. > We always blamed it on the change of diet.......namely the neeps ! > Stella.

Steven - I really appreciate the wit of the sentence beginning "The nearest part of which..." Thanks! And thanks everyone for the pronunciation clues...coaching... Jackie Margaret Bainton wrote: > Thank you, Steven for the pronunciations! > Peggy > > Steven Heddle <[email protected]> wrote: > No, it's like 'broch', with the -och bit as in the Scottish pronunciation of loch. > And Birsay is pronounced 'Birsee' > And 'of' is prounced 'oh'. So 'broch-o birsee' > > In general the '-ay' at the end of island names is pronounced '-ee', and even Hoy is more like 'Ho-ee'. Also Harray is pronounced the same as Harry. And Yesnaby is 'Yesnabee'. You get the idea. > > Also Stromness is not 'Strohm-ness' but 'Strumnis!' > Finstown is 'Finstoon' > Dounby is 'Doonby' > Holm (the parish) is 'Ham' > Holm (as in small island) is 'home' > Deerness is 'Dernis' > KIrkwall is 'the Toon' > The rest of the UK (apart from Shetland) is 'Sooth' > The nearest part of which is 'Scotland', which we will only grudgingly admit to be being part of after a major sporting success for that country. > > So placenames are straightforward enough. Now lets move onto common areas of confusion (may vary from parish to parish)... > > 'How' is 'hoo' > 'Who' is 'whar' e.g. 'Whar's that?'- 'Who are they?'' > 'Where' is also 'whar', but with an extra 'at' often added e.g. 'Whar's that at?'- 'Where is that?' > 'How?' is also often 'Whut wiy?' e.g. 'Whut wiy hid?- 'How has this come to pass?' > > This takes me back to Sigurd's Word of the Week, which stopped before we got to T is for Trulls. > > Cheers > Steven > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Janice Langland > To: [email protected] > Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 10:54 PM > Subject: Re: [ORCADIA] Brough of Birsay > > > I've always heard it BRUFF, like the Three Billy Goats Gruff. > > Janice > > > On Sep 26, 2007, at 5:44 PM, Isabella Moreland wrote: > > >> How is Brough pronounced, please ? >> Isabella >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: [email protected] >> Date: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 6:06 am >> Subject: Re: [ORCADIA] Brough of Birsay >> To: [email protected] >> >> >>> >>> >>> Anyone trying to follow this conversation will think you have to >>> dance the >>> way over!! Well a few hops and skips were necessary >>> anyway. But worth every >>> step. Don't anyone who hasn't been get discouraged by all >>> this. It's an >>> experience one shouldn't miss. >>> >>> Karen >>> >>> I >>> >>> in a message dated 9/26/2007 7:58:38 A.M. Central Daylight >>> Time, >>> [email protected] writes: >>> >>> >>> Dear me, Karen, you led me astray with your misleading >>> subject line! OK, >>> here's how I responded: >>> >>> >>> Well, as you may well recall, it's not always such a great >>> way to get to >>> the Brough, Karen: >>> >>> http://www.orcadian.co.uk/archive/2002/broughbirsay.htm >>> >>> Norman Tulloch >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________ >>> Orcadia Group Photo Album >>> http://tinyurl.com/28bx9x >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email >>> to >>> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>> the quotes in the subject and the >>> body of the message >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ************************************** See what's new at >>> http://www.aol.com_______________________________________ >>> Orcadia Group Photo Album >>> http://tinyurl.com/28bx9x >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ORCADIA- >>> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >> Isabella >> _______________________________________ >> Orcadia Group Photo Album >> http://tinyurl.com/28bx9x >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ORCADIA- >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes >> in the subject and the body of the message >> > > _______________________________________ > Orcadia Group Photo Album > http://tinyurl.com/28bx9x > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > _______________________________________ > Orcadia Group Photo Album > http://tinyurl.com/28bx9x > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > --------------------------------- > Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more. > _______________________________________ > Orcadia Group Photo Album > http://tinyurl.com/28bx9x > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- Jacqueline Howell 510 302-4200 510 302-4242 FAX Receptionist/Asst. Site Administrator WestEd 300 Lakeside Drive, 25th Fl Oakland, CA 94612

SIMON TREASURE wrote: > actually it was the other way round. it was almost certainly a > headland 1000 years ago, not cut off by the sea at any time. As the > capital of viking orkney it seems logical that they would establish a > site that they could access from the land without the problems we > have today. Well, I don't know about that, Simon. The Brough was certainly attached to the land at some time, but, as far as I can gather, not during the period of Pictish and Norse occupation. In Anna Ritchie's "Historic Scotland" booklet on the Brough, she writes: "It is impossible to judge the date at which the Brough became detached from the Point of Buckquoy, but geologists and archaeologists agree that it took place long before the known settlement of the island in the seventh century AD. Nor can it be estimated how accessible the Brough has been by boat, though attempting to land must always have been hazardous. The modern causeway makes it possible to cross on foot without getting one's feet wet, but without the causeway wet feet would be inevitable, and to that extent life on the island inconvenient." Doesn't the place-name evidence also suggest that the Brough was an island in Viking times? According to a certain Charles Tait in his Guidebook: "The Vikings called the whole area of Birsay and Harray 'Byrgisherad' (ON Byrgisey, island of the enclosure or rampart and Herad, district)." So, no, I think the Brough was an island 1000 years ago, and if the sea level was indeed one or two metres higher during the Viking period, it may have been cut off by the sea (or perhaps made more secure by the sea) for longer periods than we see now. Incidentally, you say that the Brough was once the capital of Viking Orkney. I think that's debatable. To quote Anna Ritchie again: "In many ways the site of the modern village at the head of the Bay of Birsay has a stronger claim to have been the seat of the early Norse earls [than does the Brough], just as it was for later earls in the sixteenth century, when the sumptuous palace, whose gaunt walls still dominate the bay, was built. Alongside the palace, the present parish church is known to stand on the site of an earlier cruciform church, traditionally known as Christ's Kirk, which was demolished in the eighteenth century. There is also archaeological and historical evidence for an episcopal palace here in the sixteenth century. Recent excavations alongside the mouth of the burn have uncovered the foundations of a substantial tenth-century Norse hall, together with later buildings, which may well have been the seat of the first earls of Orkney." She also points out that, "Despite its sophisticated design, the church on the Brough is very small to have been an important minster, and, by tradition, its dedication is to St Peter rather than to Christ. Thorfinn's Christchurch was built in the mid eleventh century, whereas most architectural historians date the Brough church to the early twelfth century." Neither does it seem to me that any of the Norse buildings that have been found on the Brough look grand enough to have been the residence of Earl Thorfinn the Mighty, but I'm no expert on these matters. Clearly there were important Norse settlements both on the Brough and around the Point of Buckquoy, but maybe the main seat of power was a little further round the Birsay Bay. Norman Tulloch

On 27/09/2007 Steven Heddle wrote: > Also Stromness is not 'Strohm-ness' but 'Strumnis!' AKA The Hub of the Empire :-) -- Mike Clouston

No, it's like 'broch', with the -och bit as in the Scottish pronunciation of loch. And Birsay is pronounced 'Birsee' And 'of' is prounced 'oh'. So 'broch-o birsee' In general the '-ay' at the end of island names is pronounced '-ee', and even Hoy is more like 'Ho-ee'. Also Harray is pronounced the same as Harry. And Yesnaby is 'Yesnabee'. You get the idea. Also Stromness is not 'Strohm-ness' but 'Strumnis!' Finstown is 'Finstoon' Dounby is 'Doonby' Holm (the parish) is 'Ham' Holm (as in small island) is 'home' Deerness is 'Dernis' KIrkwall is 'the Toon' The rest of the UK (apart from Shetland) is 'Sooth' The nearest part of which is 'Scotland', which we will only grudgingly admit to be being part of after a major sporting success for that country. So placenames are straightforward enough. Now lets move onto common areas of confusion (may vary from parish to parish)... 'How' is 'hoo' 'Who' is 'whar' e.g. 'Whar's that?'- 'Who are they?'' 'Where' is also 'whar', but with an extra 'at' often added e.g. 'Whar's that at?'- 'Where is that?' 'How?' is also often 'Whut wiy?' e.g. 'Whut wiy hid?- 'How has this come to pass?' This takes me back to Sigurd's Word of the Week, which stopped before we got to T is for Trulls. Cheers Steven ----- Original Message ----- From: Janice Langland To: [email protected] Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 10:54 PM Subject: Re: [ORCADIA] Brough of Birsay I've always heard it BRUFF, like the Three Billy Goats Gruff. Janice On Sep 26, 2007, at 5:44 PM, Isabella Moreland wrote: > How is Brough pronounced, please ? > Isabella > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: [email protected] > Date: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 6:06 am > Subject: Re: [ORCADIA] Brough of Birsay > To: [email protected] > >> >> >> >> >> Anyone trying to follow this conversation will think you have to >> dance the >> way over!! Well a few hops and skips were necessary >> anyway. But worth every >> step. Don't anyone who hasn't been get discouraged by all >> this. It's an >> experience one shouldn't miss. >> >> Karen >> >> I >> >> in a message dated 9/26/2007 7:58:38 A.M. Central Daylight >> Time, >> [email protected] writes: >> >> >> Dear me, Karen, you led me astray with your misleading >> subject line! OK, >> here's how I responded: >> >> >> Well, as you may well recall, it's not always such a great >> way to get to >> the Brough, Karen: >> >> http://www.orcadian.co.uk/archive/2002/broughbirsay.htm >> >> Norman Tulloch >> >> >> _______________________________________ >> Orcadia Group Photo Album >> http://tinyurl.com/28bx9x >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email >> to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the >> body of the message >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ************************************** See what's new at >> http://www.aol.com_______________________________________ >> Orcadia Group Photo Album >> http://tinyurl.com/28bx9x >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ORCADIA- >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > Isabella > _______________________________________ > Orcadia Group Photo Album > http://tinyurl.com/28bx9x > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ORCADIA- > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message _______________________________________ Orcadia Group Photo Album http://tinyurl.com/28bx9x ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

actually it was the other way round. it was almost certainly a headland 1000 years ago, not cut off by the sea at any time. As the capital of viking orkney it seems logical that they would establish a site that they could access from the land without the problems we have today. You have to be careful with the published tide times as well - the orcadian is not always entirely correct, or rather tides published are not always directly relevant to actual timings. many tourists and even some local find themselves wading back along the causway as a result. ----- Original Message ---- From: Norman Tulloch <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Wednesday, 26 September, 2007 3:10:48 PM Subject: Re: [ORCADIA] Brough of Birsay I wonder if access to the Brough by sea might have been easier in Viking times because of higher sea levels? Less danger of grounding on the rocks? "Significant fluctuations in sea level have occurred around Orkney in the recent past. This is inferred from features observed near Stromness and many other parts of Orkney. There is compelling evidence from widespread raised beach features for an approximately 1m - 2m higher relative sea-level in the past, while the large number of oyces backed by grass-covered cliffs, and raised beaches around Orkney's coastline confirm a similar story. Although not dated, it is inferred that this particular high stand occurred about 1000 years ago in the Viking Period. It is postulated that as sea level dropped ayres* grew across the mouths of small bays enclosing the oyce and developing the new equilibrium coast line. This relationship between raised beach, ayre and oyce is well demonstrated at Rothiesholm Head on Stronsay." http://www.fettes.com/Orkney/sea%20level%20change.htm Now — and here's a bit of pure speculation — maybe the Brough became less attractive as a place of safety, a "fort island" (which is what Birsay/Byrgisey means) when the sea level fell once again? It seems odd that nothing much appears to have happened on the Brough from about the late twelfth century right down to the present day. Norman Tulloch *Air, aire, ayre, a gravelly beach; spec. of a spit of gravelly beach separating the outer sea from a lagoon behind. Usually there is an opening at one end of the air through which the sea ebbs and flows. Oyce, n. Also oyse. An inlet of the sea, esp. one which is almost cut off by a bar of shingle. (From our old chum at http://www.dsl.ac.uk/dsl/) _______________________________________ Orcadia Group Photo Album http://tinyurl.com/28bx9x ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

----- Original Message ----- From: "Sian Thomas" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 11:19 AM Subject: FWD: [ORCADIA] Neeps for the kye The milk al;ways tasted different in the winter time. We always blamed it on the change of diet.......namely the neeps ! Stella. > > >