Hi Richard, This information came from a book at ancestry.com. It is free online right now at www.ancestry.com Just click on new data bases then click on the book title named below, type in the surname you want and voila. I think that the 1880 you noticed should indeed be 1780 after all he died well before 1880. That was the way it was written and I did copy and paste. The books at ancestry have some atrocious typists ha ha. As far as the ultimo. I'm not sure what that means. If you find out would appreciate your letting me know. Other dates I've seen also use the word instant. Could ulitomo and instant mean month before or that month? One of the deaths mentioned a couple before his was for the month of Sept. If anyone knows what the words ultimo or instant means can ya help us out and let us know. Cheryl White [email protected] http://www.angelfire.com/me/geneal ICQ #7239631 IM Cheryl gen ---------- > From: Richard O'Neill <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [ONEALL-L] From ancestry.com > Date: Friday, September 18, 1998 10:51 PM > > > Cheryl, > > I'm very interested in this posting as I think you have uncovered an > ancestor of mine. Can you double check the date he "entered the > mercantile business." Could it be 1780? Also, if the date of the > article is 11-10-1848, in what month did he die (...the 18th ultimo...)? > > Thank you for the reference! > > Richard O'NEILL (AKA Richard "O") > San Antonio, TX > [email protected]

Cheryl White wrote: > > Marriage and Death Notices From the Up-Country of South Carolina as taken > from Greenville newspapers 1826 - 1863 compiled by Brent H. Holcomb, C. A. > L. S. > page 189 > Died at the residence of Judge O'Neall, Springfield, Newberry District, his > father, Hugh O'Neall, on Wednesday, [p.189] the 18th ultimo at abour 2 P. > M. Hugh O'Neal the second son of William O'Neall and his wife. Mary Frost, > was born 10th June 1767 in Laurens District, S. C. He there spent the early > part of his life. In his boyhood he managed a grist mill for his father.… > In 1880 he entered the mercantile business.… In 1820 he became an inmate in > the family of his son who had just settled at Springfield. There he spent > the balance of his life. (November 10, 1848) > > Cheryl White > [email protected] > http://www.angelfire.com/me/geneal > ICQ #7239631 > IM Cheryl gen Cheryl, I'm very interested in this posting as I think you have uncovered an ancestor of mine. Can you double check the date he "entered the mercantile business." Could it be 1780? Also, if the date of the article is 11-10-1848, in what month did he die (...the 18th ultimo...)? Thank you for the reference! Richard O'NEILL (AKA Richard "O") San Antonio, TX [email protected]

Marriage and Death Notices From the Up-Country of South Carolina as taken from Greenville newspapers 1826 - 1863 compiled by Brent H. Holcomb, C. A. L. S. page 189 Died at the residence of Judge O'Neall, Springfield, Newberry District, his father, Hugh O'Neall, on Wednesday, [p.189] the 18th ultimo at abour 2 P. M. Hugh O'Neal the second son of William O'Neall and his wife. Mary Frost, was born 10th June 1767 in Laurens District, S. C. He there spent the early part of his life. In his boyhood he managed a grist mill for his father.… In 1880 he entered the mercantile business.… In 1820 he became an inmate in the family of his son who had just settled at Springfield. There he spent the balance of his life. (November 10, 1848) Cheryl White [email protected] http://www.angelfire.com/me/geneal ICQ #7239631 IM Cheryl gen

[email protected] wrote: > > Jon, > > To be brief and all encompassing we could all hust use "O". > > Bob O'Neal I don't know Bob--some of us are running around as N400s.

In a message dated 9/17/98 9:10:20 PM Mountain Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: > To be brief and all encompassing we could all hust use "O". Yes, my grandmother was known to my sister, myself and my friends, simply, as G R A N D M A "O"........

After searching tirelessly for the father of Reiges O'Neil, I have found him. However, all I found are his initials so I now search for this: J.J. O'Neil married Mary Hufford, year unknown right now children: Francis J. b 1901 (?) Reiges T. b. 1906 Blepre, OH Margaret b. 1907 or later No connections here yet with anyone, but with J.J. here now, I'm a hoping! Patti 0540 (I really like that idea) in MD

"Angling is somewhat like poetry,-- men are to be born so."- Izaak Walton. 1593-1683 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Dear Dennis and anyone else interested: The National Archives of Ireland has a page related to this subject. See the first URL listed below. You can search the records by surname. It's pretty interesting reading. -- Bill O'Neal New Jersey USA http://www.kst.dit.ie/nat-arch/search01.html Visit Bill at Home: http://www.mindspring.com/~joekramer/oneal.html ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Angling may be said to be so much like the mathematics that it can never be fully learnt."- IBID ------------- Original Text From: <[email protected]>, on 9/17/98 09:53 PM: To: [email protected]@Servers[<[email protected]>] I have a friend, Norm Simpson , who lives in Lismore just outside of Sydney. His grand mother was arrested in London for stealing a loaf of bread to feed her children.She was shipped off to Australia with Norm's father . He was anuirsing baby and she had to take him. The other children were placed in homes in London. Norm has done a lot of "Convict Genealogy". He is proud of his mother and has researched and located the store in London where she took the bread, found records of the trial and the judges name. I will be in Sydney in October and return in November. Dennis O'Neal < [email protected] > Ft.Worth,Tx < [email protected] > < [email protected] >

I marvel yer mudders didn't name you both O'ops!!! : ) [email protected] wrote: > Jon, > > To be brief and all encompassing we could all hust use "O". > > Bob O'Neal

Jon & Lori, May I also say that these are merely my comments, not documented proof of any facts. I only am saying what I have learned from my research and experience. And all of this is always open to question and further refinement or correction. I don't have at hand a source for the connection to Njal. I will try to find it for you. My SPECIFIC O'Neal genealogy is FULLY documented. Some 30 pages of my genealogy is documented by some 300 footnotes. It is always curious to me how absolutely sure people can be about the events of the centuries before written history of the common man existed. I personally am tracing backwards in time as far as I can go, but it is more clouded with each century. Documentation before 1000 is virtually non- existent (except for royal lines, which in our case I am pretty certain are irrelevant). Bob O'Neal

Jon, I am not sure I understand your question. Are you saying that the people in what is now Ireland received no intercourse from outside until they were invaded? Bob O'Neal

> 1. When I was in college, I did a research paper on the origin of my name > "O'Neal". Since I had no preconceived notions about the name, and no > genealogical experience, I merely reported what I found which was this: > > a) The name originally stemmed from a Norse god, "Njal", pronounced, nee-aal'. > The "a" has a small "o" above it, and in fact is not an "a", but one of the > three additional letters in the modern Dano-Norwegian alphabet, and pronounced > differently (ask one of your Scandinavian friends). There is a famous early > literary work called "Njal's Saga". > > b) The name evolved over the centuries as Njall. In Dano-Norwegian, a "j" is > pronounced as "ee". Then it became Niall (an "i" is also pronouced as "ee" in > Dano-Norwegian). At one point there was a "Niall of the Nine Hostages" who is > named as the progenitor of the O'Neal/O'Neall/O'Neill name. Then, some time > later his descendants, the Irish "clan" of O'Neal's used the IRISH appelation > "Ui" to designate "descendant of" or "son of" as in Ui' Niall or "descendants > of Niall". > Bob O'Neal in Tacoma It's interesting that the Celtic language had a direct influence from Norse at such an early date (c. 400). This was well before the Norse invasions of Ireland. How do you sources document this connection? Anyway, I've decided to use the Soundex version of my name. Jon O540

Jon, To be brief and all encompassing we could all hust use "O". Bob O'Neal

I have a friend, Norm Simpson , who lives in Lismore just outside of Sydney. His grand mother was arrested in London for stealing a loaf of bread to feed her children.She was shipped off to Australia with Norm's father . He was anuirsing baby and she had to take him. The other children were placed in homes in London. Norm has done a lot of "Convict Genealogy". He is proud of his mother and has researched and located the store in London where she took the bread, found records of the trial and the judges name. I will be in Sydney in October and return in November. Dennis O'Neal < [email protected] > Ft.Worth,Tx < [email protected] > < [email protected] >

In a message dated 9/17/98 6:30:19 PM Central Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: << Anyway, I've decided to use the Soundex version of my name. Jon O540 >> Jon, BEST idea thus far ... LOLOLOLOL SA Bob O'Neale

Hi everyone, I'm new to the list. I really appreciate everyone sharing about the spelling of the name. The spelling has really eluded me in my search at times. But I've just look at all spellings as I has found it spelled everywhere just within my own line. Has anyone ran across O'Neille? I've came to the conclusion that as Jill said it is the way some census takers spelled it.But then again ..were they hiding from someone? Norma

In a message dated 9/17/1998 8:35:47 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: << O'Nexlx Rooters, There are some points I would like to make regarding the genealogy of the O'Neal (and variants) name. >> Bob, Always enjoy your input but I particularly enjoyed this one, which contains alot of info I've always wondered about. Thanks & keep it up. Patrick O'Neal Elk Grove, CA

Cousin Bob (in Tacoma), You hit the proverbial nail right smack on the head -- as usual. As for curly-ques after the "l" ... I've been of that persuasion for many years. I am nearly certain that is where the trailing "e" originated (at least in our genealogical strain). I trust all the subscribers will print your paper and FRAME it! Great reference and thanks. SA Bob O'Neale

O'Nexlx Rooters, There are some points I would like to make regarding the genealogy of the O'Neal (and variants) name. 1. When I was in college, I did a research paper on the origin of my name "O'Neal". Since I had no preconceived notions about the name, and no genealogical experience, I merely reported what I found which was this: a) The name originally stemmed from a Norse god, "Njal", pronounced, nee-aal'. The "a" has a small "o" above it, and in fact is not an "a", but one of the three additional letters in the modern Dano-Norwegian alphabet, and pronounced differently (ask one of your Scandinavian friends). There is a famous early literary work called "Njal's Saga". b) The name evolved over the centuries as Njall. In Dano-Norwegian, a "j" is pronounced as "ee". Then it became Niall (an "i" is also pronouced as "ee" in Dano-Norwegian). At one point there was a "Niall of the Nine Hostages" who is named as the progenitor of the O'Neal/O'Neall/O'Neill name. Then, some time later his descendants, the Irish "clan" of O'Neal's used the IRISH appelation "Ui" to designate "descendant of" or "son of" as in Ui' Niall or "descendants of Niall". c) So the progression is Njal-Niall-Ui' Niall-O'Niall. Later, in "modern" times, the name was anglicized, as they all were, English being the language of commerce and the British Empire, to O'Niall, pronounced "o-neel". 2. Later, after some 16 years of work in genealogy of my family I learned more, from other genealogists, about names in general and the "O'Niall" name in particular. I am also an amateur etymologist. a) In the early days, most O'Nialls did'nt have a clue as to how it was spelled. Most people, even "kings" were illiterate as the Church held most of the written documents and even the literate up until recent centuries, (1600s) did NOT pay much attention to spelling IN GENERAL. Even later, in the 1800s and early 1900s, the documents we refer to such as wills, census, land records, WERE NOT WRITTEN BY OUR ANCESTORS, but by someone for them, such as a clerk, lawyer, priest, census-taker, etc. That is why genealogists say that spelling, especially early on, MEANS VERY LITTLE. If you can think of the many ways you can spell the pronunciation "o-neel", that is what happened. O'Neill, O'Neall, O'Neale, O'Neil, O'Neal, O'Neel, O'Nail, etc. b) Please, let's put this in perspective here. The made-up name, "O'Nexlx" is MERELY AN UNOFFICIAL SHORTHAND WAY to inlcude everyone's variation of the spelling in this surname list without writing, every time we refer to the general surname, O'Neill/O'Neall/O'Neale/O'Neil/O'Neal, which is very cumbersome. c) A "clan" is defined as a "group of families or households, the HEADS of which claim descent from a common ancestor". As we know, these "clans" formed alliances with other groups for continual struggles for power and defense in their tribal warring. It has been written many times that, from a genealogical viewpoint, these "clans" had many members who WERE NOT RELATED and so you can not use clan membership as any kind of evidence for genealogical purposes, no matter HOW the name is spellled. My take on this is that what were in the very earkly days in Scotland and Ireland, (family) clans in the true sense of the word, became later, a mixture of nearby, local community and family groups we would rerally classify as "tribes" in the true sense of that word. There ARE NO MORE REAL CLANS left, because we are all now scattered over hundreds of years of wide geographic emigration to the far corners. Even so they do not provide evidence of ancestry. d) The ONLY way to discover an ancestral relationship to a deceased person in past time is by tracing BACKWARDS IN TIME, gathering a preponderance of PRIMARY, SECONDARY and CIRCUMSTANTIAL evidence of events such as birth, marriage, and death, to link us to our direct descendants by the accepted RULES of SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE. This is genealogy. 3. What do the variations of our name mean, if anything? My experience has led me to the conclusion that name spellings DO mean something. What I have discovered is that, in more recent times, perhaps in the 1700s-1800s, and particularly in America, certain branches of families "changed" their name, but I DO believe that in most cases these "changes" were inadvertent or unconscious. For example, it is common for a branch of a family to have a different spelling of the name than another and stick with it until modern day. There came a time when we began to pay more attention to the spelling of our names, that is when we became more educated and paid more attention to spelling of all words. For example, if a migration occurred of one person from say, Maryland where my O'Neals hail from, to Virginia, where Robert Spencer O'Neale's (DADSAID or Texas BOb O'Neale) branch moved to, the head of the migrating family may use a different spelling, merely because when he got there he spelled the name as best he knew, and perhaps, being a young adult, he signed his name for the first time as "O'Neale". Now it was common at the time in cursive writing of the day, to use some flourish in writing for emphasis, such as a "curleycue" or in German, a "schnorkel" on the end of words, particularly names. This "curleycue" or "loop" looked like an "e". (Remember the English word "shoppe". With apologies to my cousin Bob O'Neale, this could have been the origin of the "e" on his surname. Genealogically this is a VERY important clue for Bob to identify members of his branch. But I am sure he won't overlook other spellings of the name, especially before 1800. 4. The religion of the branch also has a bearing on the spelling, mostly because it is highly likely that different branches of the same family will have the same religion. It is a puzzle to me that our O'Neals who came into Maryland in the 1600s were apparently Protestant from that time, but most of the O'Neals in Ireland were Catholic. Our O'Neals were common-folk, non-land-owning, non-noble, non- castle-dwelling, non-Catholic, colonists, working as farmers, weavers, potato diggers, distillers or livestock raisers, or who followed some other equally difficult way of making a living. They went out on the frontiers seeking land. They became disenchanted with the feudal state in Ireland, their servitude and the continual fighting amongst the Scots-Irish Presbyterians, the native Irish Catholics and especially the intolerant British nobles and at the same time, became enchanted with the idea of finding freedom and land in America, and so they left in great number for the American Colonies during the period of the late 1600s up to the late 1700s (esp. 1775). Later on in the 1800s and early 1900s came the Roman Catholic Irish, who were also common folk, but who came because of the famines and who stayed in the cities as policemen, firemen, factory workers and other city workers and did not generally go out on the frontier, although some did migrate west after the Civil War. It is not likely that these later Catholic O'Nexlx families are in any way related to the earlier Protetant O'Nexlx who came as colonists before the Revolution. If anyone out there has a documented relationship of this kind, I would very much like to hear about it. I am interested in what other genealogists may have to say on this fascinating subject. Bob O'Neal in Tacoma

Carl, Thanks to you and Richard, I find the discussions very interesting as well as amusing from time to time. I'm no historian but I did see a show on the history channel about the Irish. It clamed that true Irish had Black Hair and had dark complexion. That the Vikings introduced the Red hair into the Irish blood. About using the xx's in the surname, I didn't know this either. It does make good since though and I didn't have any problems understanding the use of them. Once again I agree with you, " learn something every day". Thanks everyone for your sharing your insights and Keep up the good letters! I really enjoy reading them. Dennis O'Nexx :-) Carl English Porter wrote: > Thanks Richard, for this look at your growing discovery of your family. > Very enjoyable, and a lesson for all of us, as well as a clear picture of > why we are compelled to investigate the lives and times of dead people! > I had regarded the variant spellings as the inevitable consequence of > the abundance, both of the physical family, but especially of the heritage > of the people who bore this surname. That is, it is just too rich to be > contained by a single spelling! The changes, or corruptions, themselves, > are part of the heritage. The oldest form of the name, of which I have been > made aware, is O'Neill. I would like to have had an explanation why > "descendant of Neil" was not simply "O'Neil" this is what I would expect, > but for some reason "O'Neill" appears to have carried the family forward > many generations. Left to my own devices to try to account for this, I > suspect ostentation, as when Lincoln, commented on his bride's maiden name > of Todd, saying, "It's very impressive, when you consider that one "d" was > enough for God." We believe Hugh, the immigrant, was bearing the name > O'Neill when he went into the English Navy, and we have the tradition that > he changed the spelling to O'Neale, or O'Neal to help him to hide from > authorities who would have regarded him as a deserter. Senator John Belton > O'Neal tells about one branch of the family dropping the "O'" because they > held the mistaken belief that it marked them as aristocracy, which they > disdained. So then, all these changes are as much of the family story as, > so and so had red hair. They are, in their way, far more revealing than > bits and pieces of physical descriptions, for they provide a glimpse into > the thinking, or education and attitudes of our family! The appearance of > "x"s in our surname was novel for me, but with the experience of many > mathematical problems where "x" is the unknown, I was able to divine the > meaning intended. Until Jill,s note, I had no idea that it was widely used > by genealogists. Learn something every day! Thanks everyone for your > sharing your insights! > Carl > > Richard O'Neill wrote: > > > In my younger (and more naive days) I took great pride in my surname > > O'NEILL. I allied my feelings with the Irish Catholic who left Ireland > > during the potato famine to seek a better life in America. In > > researching my ancestry, I learned that my ancestors in fact were in > > this country prior to the revolutionary war. What pride I felt in > > learning that I am descended from a patriot! > > > > More research has brought me back to earth. My relatives are O'NEILL, > > O'NEIL, and O'NEAL. The spelling may in fact have been determined by a > > clerk since not all of my relatives were literate! As a Catholic, I am > > the exception to the rule since most were Methodist. In fact, at least > > one may have fought with William of Orange in the Battle of the Boyne. > > Some were loyalists during the Revolutionary War rather than patriots. > > > > I sign my correspondence O'NEILL since that is who I am, and I use the > > same spelling when I refer to the "clan", but I use the appropriate > > spelling of an individual when I know it. There is no "correct" or > > standardized spelling and I see no need for one since there seems to be > > no real confusion. Even so, this is a fun topic for discussion. > > > > (upon re-reading this, I realize that it sounds like I'm pontificating > > even though I do not mean to do so. Maybe I really am Irish after all!) > > > > Richard O'NEILL > > San Antonio, TX > > [email protected]

Thanks Richard, for this look at your growing discovery of your family. Very enjoyable, and a lesson for all of us, as well as a clear picture of why we are compelled to investigate the lives and times of dead people! I had regarded the variant spellings as the inevitable consequence of the abundance, both of the physical family, but especially of the heritage of the people who bore this surname. That is, it is just too rich to be contained by a single spelling! The changes, or corruptions, themselves, are part of the heritage. The oldest form of the name, of which I have been made aware, is O'Neill. I would like to have had an explanation why "descendant of Neil" was not simply "O'Neil" this is what I would expect, but for some reason "O'Neill" appears to have carried the family forward many generations. Left to my own devices to try to account for this, I suspect ostentation, as when Lincoln, commented on his bride's maiden name of Todd, saying, "It's very impressive, when you consider that one "d" was enough for God." We believe Hugh, the immigrant, was bearing the name O'Neill when he went into the English Navy, and we have the tradition that he changed the spelling to O'Neale, or O'Neal to help him to hide from authorities who would have regarded him as a deserter. Senator John Belton O'Neal tells about one branch of the family dropping the "O'" because they held the mistaken belief that it marked them as aristocracy, which they disdained. So then, all these changes are as much of the family story as, so and so had red hair. They are, in their way, far more revealing than bits and pieces of physical descriptions, for they provide a glimpse into the thinking, or education and attitudes of our family! The appearance of "x"s in our surname was novel for me, but with the experience of many mathematical problems where "x" is the unknown, I was able to divine the meaning intended. Until Jill,s note, I had no idea that it was widely used by genealogists. Learn something every day! Thanks everyone for your sharing your insights! Carl Richard O'Neill wrote: > In my younger (and more naive days) I took great pride in my surname > O'NEILL. I allied my feelings with the Irish Catholic who left Ireland > during the potato famine to seek a better life in America. In > researching my ancestry, I learned that my ancestors in fact were in > this country prior to the revolutionary war. What pride I felt in > learning that I am descended from a patriot! > > More research has brought me back to earth. My relatives are O'NEILL, > O'NEIL, and O'NEAL. The spelling may in fact have been determined by a > clerk since not all of my relatives were literate! As a Catholic, I am > the exception to the rule since most were Methodist. In fact, at least > one may have fought with William of Orange in the Battle of the Boyne. > Some were loyalists during the Revolutionary War rather than patriots. > > I sign my correspondence O'NEILL since that is who I am, and I use the > same spelling when I refer to the "clan", but I use the appropriate > spelling of an individual when I know it. There is no "correct" or > standardized spelling and I see no need for one since there seems to be > no real confusion. Even so, this is a fun topic for discussion. > > (upon re-reading this, I realize that it sounds like I'm pontificating > even though I do not mean to do so. Maybe I really am Irish after all!) > > Richard O'NEILL > San Antonio, TX > [email protected]