Yes you are right about the Bishop needing the permission of the Dean & Chapter to come into the cathedral. I am sure there are historical instances of the Dean & Chapter keeing the Bishop out! I called in Cross' Dictionary of the Christian Church. There is an extensive entry under Chapter but it doesn't mention "Open Chapter". My memory is that Lichfield was never a monastic institution - it was always run by a Dean & Canons. I did find a reference to Greater and lesser Chapters. The lesser Chapter being the Dean and residentiary canons, the greater including honorary canons and maybe others. Christopher Richards ----- Original Message ----- From: "norman.lee1" <norman.lee1@virgin.net> To: "Christopher Richards" <cmr1ch6rd7@blueyonder.co.uk>; <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2004 9:23 AM Subject: Re: [OEL] Re: church government > Hello Christopher > > Do I have it wrong when I think I remember being told that the bishop only > comes into the cathedral by invitation of the Dean and Chapter? This, I > guess, would virtually never be refused but could be if the situation > demanded it. > > When it comes to the 'open chapter', I would love to know to what this > refers. There are all sorts of possibilities. The date was, by the way, > 1344, and so the monastic system would have been in full force. The > cathedral was Lichfield. Brother Cadfael was not so very far away in > Shrewsbury, was he? > > Audrey > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Christopher Richards" <cmr1ch6rd7@blueyonder.co.uk> > To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2004 8:28 AM > Subject: Re: [OEL] Re: church government > > > > The Cathedral Chapter is not the Bishop's Committee. It is the management > > committee of the Cathedral chaired by the Dean or Provost. The Bishop has > > his throne in the cathedral but the building is under the control of the > > Dean. All a bit complicated like much of the organization of the Anglican > > Church in England. > > Christopher Richards > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "David Lamb" <davidlamb@members.shines.net> > > To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2004 7:46 AM > > Subject: [OEL] Re: church government > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > As Audrey says, the dean and chapter of a cathedral form a sort of > > "Bishop's > > > Committee". The "Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological and Ecclesiastical > > > Literature" by Rev. John McClintock and James Strong (published 1895) > > says: > > > "In England the chapter of a cathedral church consists of persons > > > ecclesiastical, canons and prebendaries, whereof the dean is chief, all > > > subordinate to the bishop, to whom they are as assistants in matters > > > relating to the church, for the better ordering and disposing the things > > > thereof, and for confirmation of such leases of the temporalities and > > > officers relating to the bishopric as the bishop from time to time shall > > > happen to make" > > > > > > I couldn't find a reference to "open chapter", but I seem to remember > > > reading it in one of the "Brother Cadfael" mediaeval whodunit books. > > > Certainly in a monastery, the chapter was a "business meeting" of the > > monks > > > and canons. Possibly a full meeting, with all monks and canons > attending, > > > would be an "open chapter", as opposed to a meeting which only the "top > > > brass" attended ("closed chapter"?) but I am only guessing. > > > > > > David Lamb (Paignton, Devon, UK) > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "norman.lee1" <norman.lee1@virgin.net> > > > To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2004 8:33 AM > > > Subject: church government > > > > > > > > > > Dear Folks > > > > > > > > Does anyone know the difference between a chapter, as in dean and > > chapter > > > (government of a cathedral) and an open chapter. I have a possibility in > > > mind that it may be that the open chapter would be an open meeting of > the > > > chapter that would be available to the laity to attend. Anyone any ideas > > or > > > knowledge? > > > > > > > > Audrey > > > > > > > > ______________________________ > > > > > > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > > > Going away for a while? > > > Don't forget to UNSUBSCRIBE! > > > OLD-ENGLISH-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > > THREADED archives for OLD-ENGLISH: > > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > > > > > > >

Thanks for all your trouble, Christopher. In the document(s) to which I refer, the words are Dean and Chapter but open chapter appears only once so far. It could well be that either the sense has been misread or that the practice is well lost in the mists of time. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Richards" <cmr1ch6rd7@blueyonder.co.uk> To: "norman.lee1" <norman.lee1@virgin.net>; <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2004 11:14 AM Subject: Re: [OEL] Re: church government > Yes you are right about the Bishop needing the permission of the Dean & > Chapter to come into the cathedral. I am sure there are historical > instances of the Dean & Chapter keeing the Bishop out! > I called in Cross' Dictionary of the Christian Church. There is an > extensive entry under Chapter but it doesn't mention "Open Chapter". > My memory is that Lichfield was never a monastic institution - it was always > run by a Dean & Canons. I did find a reference to Greater and lesser > Chapters. The lesser Chapter being the Dean and residentiary canons, the > greater including honorary canons and maybe others. > Christopher Richards > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "norman.lee1" <norman.lee1@virgin.net> > To: "Christopher Richards" <cmr1ch6rd7@blueyonder.co.uk>; > <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2004 9:23 AM > Subject: Re: [OEL] Re: church government > > > > Hello Christopher > > > > Do I have it wrong when I think I remember being told that the bishop only > > comes into the cathedral by invitation of the Dean and Chapter? This, I > > guess, would virtually never be refused but could be if the situation > > demanded it. > > > > When it comes to the 'open chapter', I would love to know to what this > > refers. There are all sorts of possibilities. The date was, by the way, > > 1344, and so the monastic system would have been in full force. The > > cathedral was Lichfield. Brother Cadfael was not so very far away in > > Shrewsbury, was he? > > > > Audrey > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Christopher Richards" <cmr1ch6rd7@blueyonder.co.uk> > > To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2004 8:28 AM > > Subject: Re: [OEL] Re: church government > > > > > > > The Cathedral Chapter is not the Bishop's Committee. It is the > management > > > committee of the Cathedral chaired by the Dean or Provost. The Bishop > has > > > his throne in the cathedral but the building is under the control of the > > > Dean. All a bit complicated like much of the organization of the > Anglican > > > Church in England. > > > Christopher Richards > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "David Lamb" <davidlamb@members.shines.net> > > > To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> > > > Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2004 7:46 AM > > > Subject: [OEL] Re: church government > > > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > > > As Audrey says, the dean and chapter of a cathedral form a sort of > > > "Bishop's > > > > Committee". The "Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological and > Ecclesiastical > > > > Literature" by Rev. John McClintock and James Strong (published 1895) > > > says: > > > > "In England the chapter of a cathedral church consists of persons > > > > ecclesiastical, canons and prebendaries, whereof the dean is chief, > all > > > > subordinate to the bishop, to whom they are as assistants in matters > > > > relating to the church, for the better ordering and disposing the > things > > > > thereof, and for confirmation of such leases of the temporalities and > > > > officers relating to the bishopric as the bishop from time to time > shall > > > > happen to make" > > > > > > > > I couldn't find a reference to "open chapter", but I seem to remember > > > > reading it in one of the "Brother Cadfael" mediaeval whodunit books. > > > > Certainly in a monastery, the chapter was a "business meeting" of the > > > monks > > > > and canons. Possibly a full meeting, with all monks and canons > > attending, > > > > would be an "open chapter", as opposed to a meeting which only the > "top > > > > brass" attended ("closed chapter"?) but I am only guessing. > > > > > > > > David Lamb (Paignton, Devon, UK) > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "norman.lee1" <norman.lee1@virgin.net> > > > > To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2004 8:33 AM > > > > Subject: church government > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Folks > > > > > > > > > > Does anyone know the difference between a chapter, as in dean and > > > chapter > > > > (government of a cathedral) and an open chapter. I have a possibility > in > > > > mind that it may be that the open chapter would be an open meeting of > > the > > > > chapter that would be available to the laity to attend. Anyone any > ideas > > > or > > > > knowledge? > > > > > > > > > > Audrey > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > > > > Going away for a while? > > > > Don't forget to UNSUBSCRIBE! > > > > OLD-ENGLISH-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > > > THREADED archives for OLD-ENGLISH: > > > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >