I take it that you're referring to ancient leasehold rather than the present day. If that were the case today, it could make a difference to the tax situation of a 999 year type lease. Am I right in thinking that a lease of three lives and one of 90 years are similar in some respects as a life was reckoned to last for 30 years? Am I also right in thinking that a lease of lives may be more or less than three? Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eve McLaughlin" <eve@varneys.demon.co.uk> To: "norman.lee1" <norman.lee1@virgin.net> Cc: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2004 6:32 PM Subject: Re: [OEL] Re: Will > In message <005801c43df7$82175480$a0d0fc3e@oemcomputer>, "norman.lee1" > <norman.lee1@virgin.net> writes > >Just intruding on this one. > > > >"Freehold and copy" means freehold and copyhold land. Copyhold is a type of > >leasehold land, usually a long lease > Not really > copyhold is normally a perpetual tenancy in a manor, which can be passed > from father to son or sold too. Leasehold is ownership for a finite > number of years (often 9, 19, 99 etc, with the rare 250 or very rare > 999) The record of a lease will possibly be in estate papers but not in > a manorial court roll. > Copyhold counts as real estate while leasehold, as a wasting asset, > counts as personal estate. > There is a type of leasehold known as a 'lease of lives', for an > unfixed term - as long as 3 named persons are alive. It can usually be > extended by one life, on payment of extra money. Apart possibly from > the first one, the 'lives' are not the owners, just healthy looking > young persons chosen for their staying power. > > > -- > Eve McLaughlin > > Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians > Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

Hello All Here is another will with some words I am sure I have transcribed correctly If these two are correct what is a ledging barrell and a bonlfying tubbe? Also phile hrifore and fuorke. Is this file knife and fork? The rest is on the following web page http://www.angelfire.com/bc3/woodcom/page20.html thanks Chris Bartlett

Line 3 - my pyde heyfore one fuorke Line 7 - Digwed her husband xiid apeece Line 8 - one flocke bed my owld kyver Line ? - bushel of barly The Resydue of all my goodes & movables Next line - being first payde & the [can't really tell without seeing the rest of the line] Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Bartlett" <woodcom@ihug.co.nz> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, May 21, 2004 11:59 AM Subject: [OEL] Will of Agnis Bartlett of Aston Oxon 1609 > > Hello All > > Here is another will with some words I am sure I have > transcribed correctly > > If these two are correct what is a ledging barrell and > a bonlfying tubbe? > > Also phile hrifore and fuorke. Is this file knife and fork? > > The rest is on the following web page > http://www.angelfire.com/bc3/woodcom/page20.html > > thanks > Chris Bartlett > > > > > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > OLD-ENGLISH Web Page > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ >

I have just realised that what I thought was a Bonlfying tubbe might be a boulfyring tubbe. regards Chris Bartlett > > > Hello All > > Here is another will with some words I am sure I have > transcribed correctly > > If these two are correct what is a ledging barrell and > a bonlfying tubbe? > > Also phile hrifore and fuorke. Is this file knife and fork? > > The rest is on the following web page > http://www.angelfire.com/bc3/woodcom/page20.html > > thanks > Chris Bartlett > > > > > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > OLD-ENGLISH Web Page > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > > >

Hello Chris, I have done a transcription of each section and it goes as follows: A 1. my neece one fether boulster & one sheete Item I give to Agnis 2. Howse my daughter one payreof shetes my pyde heyfore one smocke 3. and one table Cloth, Item I give to the 4 children of Agnis Howse B 1. one bushell of wheate apeece Item I give to Alice Digweed 2. one payre of sheetes one coverlet one ledging barrell and to 3. all her children w[hi]ch she hath by Digweed her husband xijd apeece 4. Item I give to John Thomas one flocke bed my owld kyver 5. an ij bushell of barly Item I gibe to Willia[m] Thomas one shepe C 1. the sonne of Henry Bartlet one shepe one payre of sheetes 2. and one bushell of wheate Item I give to Mary Howse one 3. table cloth. Item I give to the other 6 children of Henry D 1. Item I givwe to Ellen Bartlet also my boultyng tubbe. Item I 2. give to Edward Young my brothrt ij bushell of wheate & ij 3. bushell of barly The Resydue of all my goodes & movables 4. unbequethed my debtes and legaces being first payde & the costes & Bolting is the separating of bran from flour. I have no idea what ledging is in the context of a ledging barrell. Hope that this is of use, Best wishes, Martyn Chris Bartlett <woodcom@ihug.co.nz> wrote: Hello All Here is another will with some words I am sure I have transcribed correctly If these two are correct what is a ledging barrell and a bonlfying tubbe? Also phile hrifore and fuorke. Is this file knife and fork? The rest is on the following web page http://www.angelfire.com/bc3/woodcom/page20.html thanks Chris Bartlett ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== OLD-ENGLISH Web Page http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/

I have the following in the will of Elline Thorne of Aldbourne, Wilts., and proved in Marlborough in 1607: Item I give to my daughter Jane my best kevir and a lidging barrill Item I give to my daughter Agnis Thorne a kevir and a lidging barrill I have not found out its meaning yet. However, I have found the following in "A Glossary of Household, Farming and Trade Terms from Probate Inventories [mainly in Derbyshire]" by Rosemary Milward: Letch (lech) = vessel for holding ashes for making lye for washing. It would seem reasonable that 'lidging' was from the same root as 'ledging' and 'letch' and was also to do with the making of lye. What do others think? Julia Hunt -----Original Message----- From: mjcl [mailto:mjcl@btinternet.com] Sent: 23 May 2004 12:41 To: OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [OEL] Will of Agnis Bartlett of Aston Oxon 1609 Bolting is the separating of bran from flour. I have no idea what ledging is in the context of a ledging barrell. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.690 / Virus Database: 451 - Release Date: 22/05/2004

In message <GCEKLAOCOBMJPEMJEJLOGEMEFNAA.julia.hunt@ntlworld.com>, Julia Hunt <julia.hunt@ntlworld.com> writes >I have the following in the will of Elline Thorne of Aldbourne, Wilts., and >proved in Marlborough in 1607: > > > Item I give to my daughter Jane my best kevir a kevir, kiver, civer etc is a slope sided oblong wooden trough for proving dough (or in some cases for skimming milk (a milk civer) which must have been proved firsdt to make the joints tight.) -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

Some of the lines have not been fully reproduced so it is not possible to check the context. Here are my offerings for most of the queries: "....my pheetherbede [not completely certain about this one, especially since "fether" rendered with an F in the previous line] one smocke (not "fuorke") "....by Digwed her husband twelve pence ....." (not two pence) "my oulde kyver" "boulthing tubbe" "to Mary Howse" "the Resydue of all my goods and movables" (i.e. chattels)....."my debts and legacies first payde and the costs....." SANDRA LOVEGROVE Researching LOVEGROVEs in all places and at all times. Please do visit the LOVEGROVE Information Centre on http://www.lovegrove.org.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Bartlett" <woodcom@ihug.co.nz> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: 21 May 2004 11:59 Subject: Will of Agnis Bartlett of Aston Oxon 1609 > Hello All > > Here is another will with some words I am sure I have > transcribed correctly > > If these two are correct what is a ledging barrell and > a bonlfying tubbe? > > Also phile hrifore and fuorke. Is this file knife and fork? > > The rest is on the following web page > http://www.angelfire.com/bc3/woodcom/page20.html > > thanks > Chris Bartlett > > > > > >

> "....by Digwed her husband twelve pence ....." (not two pence) > What a lovely name for a husband! My guess is that the modern development of the name is David - following a g-y shift in some local dialect. Any other offers? Gordon Barlow

On the other hand, it sounds far more of an occupational surname. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gordon Barlow" <barlow@candw.ky> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, May 24, 2004 4:41 PM Subject: [OEL] Re: Will of Agnis Bartlett of Aston Oxon 1609 > > "....by Digwed her husband twelve pence ....." (not two pence) > > > What a lovely name for a husband! My guess is that the modern development > of the name is David - following a g-y shift in some local dialect. Any > other offers? > > Gordon Barlow > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > To contact the list administrator: > OLD-ENGLISH-admin@rootsweb.com > >

NOT ! David is a biblical name, after all. (Sounds like a surname used as a forenmae.) SANDRA LOVEGROVE Researching LOVEGROVEs in all places and at all times. Please do visit the LOVEGROVE Information Centre on http://www.lovegrove.org.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gordon Barlow" <barlow@candw.ky> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: 24 May 2004 16:41 Subject: Re: Will of Agnis Bartlett of Aston Oxon 1609 > > "....by Digwed her husband twelve pence ....." (not two pence) > > > What a lovely name for a husband! My guess is that the modern development > of the name is David - following a g-y shift in some local dialect. Any > other offers? > > Gordon Barlow > > ______________________________

In message <002f01c43f0b$946120c0$2dcdfc3e@oemcomputer>, "norman.lee1" <norman.lee1@virgin.net> writes >I take it that you're referring to ancient leasehold rather than the present >day. This is OEL! >Am I right in thinking that a lease of three lives and one of 90 years the 90 is a fixed term, through however mnany heirs. The 3 lives could be, say, Dad aged 30 and two sons (or 2 unrelated children) aged 5 and 6 - he might live another 50 years and they might live 70 or die when they were in their teens. Usually one life could be substituted for an extra fee. But if it was one fam,ily and they all took fever within a few years, and died within days of each other, before buying a substitution, the 3 life lease could be up in a handful of years., That was the gamble. > a > Am I >also right in thinking that a lease of lives may be more or less than three? Usually when it is quoted as a lease determinable upon 2 lives, it means the first two have gone and the options left are the last life and the substitute, Double substitution was possible, but the cost of doing it twice was much higher. I know of one man (A Catholic landlord desperate for ready cash) who actually gave one lease of 4 lives ab initio. -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

<<Am I right in thinking that a lease of three lives and one of 90 years are similar in some respects as a life was reckoned to last for 30 years? >> The reference to 90 years relates to the land law reforms of 1925 when a "lease for lives" was converted into a lease for 90 years. <<Am I also right in thinking that a lease of lives may be more or less than three?>> Yes and no. Depends at what date. The "tenancy pur autre vie" was a device used to create an uninheritable freehold, and rules developed over the centuries. Multiple lives were a safeguard against the effect of premature death; renewal could be effected by adding extra lives. You are getting into an extremely technical area of law here, overlapping the "rule against perpetuities", which notoriously sends law students to the very brink of insanity. Trust me: you really don't want to go there. However, if you are deeply into masochism you could borrow one of the weightier legal history textbooks from a reference library; find a secluded place; remove objects which could be damaged when thrown; cover an ice-pack with a towel; wind towel round head (for protection when banged); breathe calmly and deeply, then........ SANDRA LOVEGROVE Researching LOVEGROVEs in all places and at all times. Please do visit the LOVEGROVE Information Centre on http://www.lovegrove.org.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "norman.lee1" <norman.lee1@virgin.net> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: 21 May 2004 09:13 Subject: Re: [OEL] Re: Will > I take it that you're referring to ancient leasehold rather than the present > day. If that were the case today, it could make a difference to the tax > situation of a 999 year type lease. > > Am I right in thinking that a lease of three lives and one of 90 years are > similar in some respects as a life was reckoned to last for 30 years? Am I > also right in thinking that a lease of lives may be more or less than three? > > Audrey