<<I have found in the wills that I have read for the 17th century that, even though the catholic religion was no longer practiced, people were still following a number of the rituals in one way or another. There seem to be a number of requests for priests to say masses or prayers or similar ...>> It's intriguing to hear that some wills from your area were still requesting masses and prayers in the 17th century, Audrey, and they've made me think a bit, but I can't help wondering whether they weren't the wills of Catholic recusants. I think you mentioned once before that your area is western Derbyshire and eastern Cheshire: if south-east Lancashire was a stronghold of recusancy at this time then one would expect to find higher than normal numbers of Catholics in the adjacent counties of Cheshire and Derbyshire as well. (Incidentally, Alejandro has confirmed that the Lancashire testator whose will sparked off this debate was indeed a Catholic). <<... and we have to remember that these wills would have to go to the diocesan office to be proved and so the authorities of the Anglican church would read them. If they hadn't gone to the diocesan office, then they wouldn't now be available for us to peruse. Presumably the reformed church was still following a number of practices of the previous "unreformed" church. It was said by someone that Henry VIII remained a catholic until the day he died. Evolution is generally a slow process.>> If I understand you aright, you are saying that the Church of England's doctrine and practices evolved away from Catholicism slowly, and that in the 17th century Anglican practice still incorporated a number of Catholic practices that would later be dropped. That's not really right. By the second half of the 16th century Anglican doctrine was already very little different from what it is now (if you ignore very recent changes like the ordination of women and gays). The change wasn't evolutionary - it happened quite suddenly. Not, as you say, in the reign of Henry VIII - although he made the break from Rome and established the Church of England as a separate body, he didn't really reform the church's dogma and doctrines, which remained essentially Catholic at his death. The Reformation of the English church took place after his death, in the reigns of Edward VI and Elizabeth (principally the latter, since Edward's reforms were reversed under Mary, and reimposed in a slightly watered down form under Elizabeth). That change established pretty much the modern doctrines of the Church of England, and it took place within a generation. Of course the ordinary people's beliefs didn't necessarily alter overnight (though by 1620 England had undoubtedly become an overwhelmingly Protestant country) but their outward conformity to the more prominent doctrinal principles of Protestantism certainly did - constant investigation by the authorities ensured that. For example, in Eammon Duffy's 'Voices of Morebath' you can find a detailed description of how even a strongly Catholic parish in strongly Catholic Devon immediately toed the line in all outward respects. <<Rituals attached to death and mourning persisted for a very long time, as witness the practice of buying mourning rings for a large number of people any time from the early 18th up and into the 19th century. I realise that Queen Victoria most likely resurrected mourning rituals, as well as possibly creating a few of her own, but the jet industry of Witby was built upon the production of mourning jewelry in the 19th century.>> The Anglican faith was created by changing some aspects of the Catholic one - but not all of them, so it's no surprise to discover practices common to both. But some aspects of doctrine, some practices and rituals, are fundamental to the difference between Catholic and Protestant and have always been so. Disbelief in purgatory and the efficacy of masses and prayers for the dead was one of the more prominent Protestant principles which distinguished Anglicanism from Catholicism. From the 1547 Homilies and Injunctions (which first set out the reformed church's doctrines) onwards the Church of England constantly forbade belief in the doctrine of purgatory and the saying of masses and prayers for the dead, and frequent investigations by the Church authorities checked that these requirements were being complied with. Whether or not this affected people's private beliefs, it certainly had an effect on their wills. For instance, in the 1520s 71% of Devon wills provided for masses or prayers, but by the 1560s the proportion had dropped to nil (Whiting, 'The Blind Devotion of the People', pp 30-35). Of course some people still requested masses or prayers in their wills - and these people were almost certainly Catholic. The absence of bequests of this type didn't necessarily point to Protestantism - the testator might just have wished to avoid trouble with the authorities (I think I remember reading that they dug up the body of one Gloucestershire man whose will said the wrong thing - but that was an extreme example, from the more heated times in the middle of the 16th century ) - but their presence definitely did point to Catholicism. There is a good discussion of this in Eammon Duffy's 'The Stripping of the Altars' (Ch. 15). What I think is interesting about your wills, Audrey, is that as you say they would have had to be proved in the established church's courts - which shows how by the 17th century that church, while happy to oppress papists in many other ways, at least didn't extend its oppression beyond the grave, instead allowing Catholics at least to express their faith in their wills. Best wishes, Matt