Hello List I must be becoming known as the 'nursery rhyme woman' by now. (It's all my grandson's fault!) My question and discussion point is the following rhyme: 'Curly locks, curly locks wilt thou be mine? Thou shalt not wash dishes nor yet feed the swine But sit upon cushions and sew a fine seam And feed upon strawberries, sugar and cream.' At what date do list members think this rhyme was written or performed? I think the main dating point would be the import of sugar plus the use of it amongst the minor gentry. Only the more wealthy people could afford cushions. Around my way, only the rich people owned pigs too. This girl is clearly being promised a house with servants. I think it may be late 17th century or sometime in the 18th. So far, I have found no-one in the 16th or 17th centuries who had sugar in their probate inventories but, of course, processed foodstuffs, apart from those that would keep a long time, were generally not shown. So, anyone any knowledge on this one? Audrey

Audrey, Couldn't the reference to dishes also help date it? David The Beaver Inn, Ashford, Kent. : > > 'Curly locks, curly locks wilt thou be mine? > Thou shalt not wash dishes nor yet feed the swine > But sit upon cushions and sew a fine seam > And feed upon strawberries, sugar and cream.'

'Evening All - From HAYDN's Dictionary of dates 1891:- SUGAR: Supposedly known to ancient Jews - Found in the East Indies by Nearchus, Admiral of Alexander - 523 BC - Prescribed as a medicine by Galen, 2nd century - An oriental nation in alliance with Pompey used the juice of the cane as a common beverage - Brought into Europe from Asia A.D. 625 - In large quantities in 1150 - Cultivation attempted in Italy; not succeeding, the Portuguese and Spaniards carried it to America about 1510 - Hereafter is a list of various imports and taxes raised until 1889 - Lastly Raw sugar was imported into the UK - 1853 7,284,290 cwts ******************* Cream has always been around of course - Yum! Yum! The Strawberry was introduced into the UK from two sources:- From Flanders in 1530, known as The Flanders Strawberry - From Levant in 1724, known as The Oriental Strawberry - ******************** Look as if Cheddar has been doing quite well for some years;- ) ? As an aside - another book I have list the term: SUGAR-LIP - Stated as being Hafiz Sugar-Lip, the great Persian lyrist c.1389 - the letter 'a' has a 'tin-hat' over which I can't reproduce. Kind Regards June & Roy http://www.btinternet.com/~roy.cox/index.htm -----Original Message----- From: norman.lee1 [mailto:norman.lee1@virgin.net] Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 7:46 PM To: OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [OEL] nursery rhymes Hello List I must be becoming known as the 'nursery rhyme woman' by now. (It's all my grandson's fault!) My question and discussion point is the following rhyme: 'Curly locks, curly locks wilt thou be mine? Thou shalt not wash dishes nor yet feed the swine But sit upon cushions and sew a fine seam And feed upon strawberries, sugar and cream.' At what date do list members think this rhyme was written or performed? I think the main dating point would be the import of sugar plus the use of it amongst the minor gentry. Only the more wealthy people could afford cushions. Around my way, only the rich people owned pigs too. This girl is clearly being promised a house with servants. I think it may be late 17th century or sometime in the 18th. So far, I have found no-one in the 16th or 17th centuries who had sugar in their probate inventories but, of course, processed foodstuffs, apart from those that would keep a long time, were generally not shown. So, anyone any knowledge on this one? Audrey ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== THREADED archives for OLD-ENGLISH: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH

Hi, You may be wrong in assuming that Curly locks is a girl. Accordiong to an M.G.M. documentary the original Curly locks of this rhyme was Charles 11, although no documentary evidence has been brought forward to support that. If you really want to impress your Grandson I suggest you get a copy of "The Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes" by Iona and Peter Opie cost about £25.00. It includes over 500 rhymes, songs and riddles. Best Wishes, Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "norman.lee1" <norman.lee1@virgin.net> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 7:45 PM Subject: [OEL] nursery rhymes Hello List I must be becoming known as the 'nursery rhyme woman' by now. (It's all my grandson's fault!) My question and discussion point is the following rhyme: 'Curly locks, curly locks wilt thou be mine? Thou shalt not wash dishes nor yet feed the swine But sit upon cushions and sew a fine seam And feed upon strawberries, sugar and cream.' At what date do list members think this rhyme was written or performed? I think the main dating point would be the import of sugar plus the use of it amongst the minor gentry. Only the more wealthy people could afford cushions. Around my way, only the rich people owned pigs too. This girl is clearly being promised a house with servants. I think it may be late 17th century or sometime in the 18th. So far, I have found no-one in the 16th or 17th centuries who had sugar in their probate inventories but, of course, processed foodstuffs, apart from those that would keep a long time, were generally not shown. So, anyone any knowledge on this one? Audrey ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== THREADED archives for OLD-ENGLISH: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH

Good Morning - How about this from me 'olde Somerset/Dorset family lore? As I were goin' a Strawberry Fair [Fare?] I met a man, 'oo warn't there I met'n there agin today, I do so wish ee'd goa way! Kind Regards June & Roy http://www.btinternet.com/~roy.cox/index.htm -----Original Message----- From: Michael Roberts [mailto:mikeroberts@mweb.co.za] Sent: Friday, March 19, 2004 6:41 AM To: OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [OEL] nursery rhymes Hi, You may be wrong in assuming that Curly locks is a girl. Accordiong to an M.G.M. documentary the original Curly locks of this rhyme was Charles 11, although no documentary evidence has been brought forward to support that. If you really want to impress your Grandson I suggest you get a copy of "The Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes" by Iona and Peter Opie cost about £25.00. It includes over 500 rhymes, songs and riddles. Best Wishes, Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "norman.lee1" <norman.lee1@virgin.net> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 7:45 PM Subject: [OEL] nursery rhymes Hello List I must be becoming known as the 'nursery rhyme woman' by now. (It's all my grandson's fault!) My question and discussion point is the following rhyme: 'Curly locks, curly locks wilt thou be mine? Thou shalt not wash dishes nor yet feed the swine But sit upon cushions and sew a fine seam And feed upon strawberries, sugar and cream.' At what date do list members think this rhyme was written or performed? I think the main dating point would be the import of sugar plus the use of it amongst the minor gentry. Only the more wealthy people could afford cushions. Around my way, only the rich people owned pigs too. This girl is clearly being promised a house with servants. I think it may be late 17th century or sometime in the 18th. So far, I have found no-one in the 16th or 17th centuries who had sugar in their probate inventories but, of course, processed foodstuffs, apart from those that would keep a long time, were generally not shown. So, anyone any knowledge on this one? Audrey ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== THREADED archives for OLD-ENGLISH: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== THREADED archives for OLD-ENGLISH: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH

Hello Michael I've actually been trying to trace a copy of this book in the library, with no success as yet. I'll have another go at it. I borrowed the Opie Oxford Nursery Rhyme collection from my next door neighbour, mistakenly thinking that was the book you mention. However, I think the Hilda Boswell book of nursery rhymes is much better. The illustrations are lovely and it has a wide range of them. It is now, unfortunately, out of print. Listening to tapes and CDs over the last ten years (other grandchildren) I've been intrigued to hear further verses to Humpty Dumpty and several others, clearly written later I think. The last verse of Humpty Dumpty on the tape my elder granddaughter had says Humpty Dumpty numbered the pieces to help the King's Men. As I believe Humpty Dumpty was a canon involved in a civil war battle at Colchester, I have my doubts on that one. I can, in my mind's eye though, see the King's men gathered around a massive potbellied canon that fell from the town walls, broken into several pieces, anxiously trying to fix it and haul it back again to continue to help with the defence of the town. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Roberts" <mikeroberts@mweb.co.za> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, March 19, 2004 6:41 AM Subject: Re: [OEL] nursery rhymes > Hi, > > You may be wrong in assuming that Curly locks is a girl. Accordiong to an > M.G.M. documentary the original Curly locks of this rhyme was Charles 11, > although no documentary evidence has been brought forward to support that. > > If you really want to impress your Grandson I suggest you get a copy of > "The Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes" by Iona and Peter Opie cost about > £25.00. It includes over 500 rhymes, songs and riddles. > > Best Wishes, > > Mike > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "norman.lee1" <norman.lee1@virgin.net> > To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 7:45 PM > Subject: [OEL] nursery rhymes > > > Hello List > > I must be becoming known as the 'nursery rhyme woman' by now. (It's all my > grandson's fault!) > > My question and discussion point is the following rhyme: > > 'Curly locks, curly locks wilt thou be mine? > Thou shalt not wash dishes nor yet feed the swine > But sit upon cushions and sew a fine seam > And feed upon strawberries, sugar and cream.' > > At what date do list members think this rhyme was written or performed? I > think the main dating point would be the import of sugar plus the use of it > amongst the minor gentry. Only the more wealthy people could afford > cushions. Around my way, only the rich people owned pigs too. This girl is > clearly being promised a house with servants. I think it may be late 17th > century or sometime in the 18th. So far, I have found no-one in the 16th or > 17th centuries who had sugar in their probate inventories but, of course, > processed foodstuffs, apart from those that would keep a long time, were > generally not shown. > > So, anyone any knowledge on this one? > > Audrey > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > THREADED archives for OLD-ENGLISH: > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > THREADED archives for OLD-ENGLISH: > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > >