> perhaps the upper middle class housing development had already begun and > your man was supplying some of these larger prestigious households with > their coal and coke requirements. > No doubt. This LOVEGROVE was a member of a family of yeomen farmers; his father and uncles left Berkshire to come to south London - or rather rural Camberwell as it then was - and became small property developers ("improvers" as this was called at the time!) There are many very handsome Georgian terraces in Walworth/Camberwell; the Labour Party used to have its headquarters offices in one of them on the main Walworth Road. A couple of the houses in one of the original terraces in a side street in Walworth were probably built by this family, and there is still a Lovegrove Street off the Old Kent Road, now a dirty little run-down unpaved lane with motor repair shops, etc. However, this man really was a dairyman/cowkeeper. His 16 year-old son was a "cheesemonger's assistant", presumably to the grocer/cheesemonger just 2 census schedules further on. In the 1871 census he was a "Cowkeeper occupier of 10 acres" so the area around Denmark Hill was still delightfully rural. SANDRA Researching LOVEGROVEs in all places and at all times. Please do visit the LOVEGROVE Information Centre on http://www.lovegrove.org.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "norman.lee1" <norman.lee1@virgin.net> To: "Sandra Lovegrove" <sandra@lovegrove.org.uk>; <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: 30 March 2004 15:05 Subject: Re: [OEL] unusual occupation reprised > An observation on the location as well as the occupation(s) - from what I > remember of Lambeth, who would have thought that such a short time ago > (historically speaking) a place could change so much! I was more familiar > with the Lambeth of the 1960s and it was certainly on its way down then > although, like many of the London suburbs at the time, you could see signs > of the glories of yesteryear. What is more, these glories would have > postdated the 1860s of the man you mention with most of the houses probably > dating from 1880-1910. The time you mention must have been when, in the > neighbouring parish, the Camberwell Beauty was still flourishing. But, > perhaps the upper middle class housing development had already begun and > your man was supplying some of these larger prestigious households with > their coal and coke requirements. > > Audrey >

Some of my lot were also Cheesemongers in Camberwell. They came from Carmarthenshire and some of the cousins made a lot of money in the grocery trade. But Henry George married Jennet Barrett from Carmarthen. At the time he was a tailor but when I catch up with him again on his death certificate he was cheesemonger in Church Street Camberwell. And in 1881 his son was continuing the business: his aunt, my gt gt grandmother was staying with him and the girl he married a month or two later was also there - so I Imagine she was there as a chaperone! I've recentlt caught upo with some of the cousins who are still farming in Carmarthenshire and they have a diary from 1873 recording a trip to London and visits to all his cousins - including those in Camberwell. Christopher Richards ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sandra Lovegrove" <sandra@lovegrove.org.uk> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2004 3:09 PM Subject: Re: [OEL] unusual occupation reprised > > perhaps the upper middle class housing development had already begun and > > your man was supplying some of these larger prestigious households with > > their coal and coke requirements. > > > > No doubt. This LOVEGROVE was a member of a family of yeomen farmers; > his father and uncles left Berkshire to come to south London - or rather rural > Camberwell as it then was - and became small property developers ("improvers" as > this was called at the time!) There are many very handsome Georgian terraces in > Walworth/Camberwell; the Labour Party used to have its headquarters offices in > one of them on the main Walworth Road. A couple of the houses in one of the > original terraces in a side street in Walworth were probably built by this > family, and there is still a Lovegrove Street off the Old Kent Road, now a dirty > little run-down unpaved lane with motor repair shops, etc. > > However, this man really was a dairyman/cowkeeper. His 16 year-old son was a > "cheesemonger's assistant", presumably to the grocer/cheesemonger just 2 census > schedules further on. In the 1871 census he was a "Cowkeeper occupier of 10 > acres" so the area around Denmark Hill was still delightfully rural. > > SANDRA > > Researching LOVEGROVEs in all places and at all times. > Please do visit the LOVEGROVE Information Centre on http://www.lovegrove.org.uk > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "norman.lee1" <norman.lee1@virgin.net> > To: "Sandra Lovegrove" <sandra@lovegrove.org.uk>; <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: 30 March 2004 15:05 > Subject: Re: [OEL] unusual occupation reprised > > > > An observation on the location as well as the occupation(s) - from what I > > remember of Lambeth, who would have thought that such a short time ago > > (historically speaking) a place could change so much! I was more familiar > > with the Lambeth of the 1960s and it was certainly on its way down then > > although, like many of the London suburbs at the time, you could see signs > > of the glories of yesteryear. What is more, these glories would have > > postdated the 1860s of the man you mention with most of the houses probably > > dating from 1880-1910. The time you mention must have been when, in the > > neighbouring parish, the Camberwell Beauty was still flourishing. But, > > perhaps the upper middle class housing development had already begun and > > your man was supplying some of these larger prestigious households with > > their coal and coke requirements. > > > > Audrey > > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > OLD-ENGLISH Web Page > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > > >

Dear Sandra When it comes to Denmark Hill, it was still quite rural when I was a small child in the 1940s. By the 50s, the massive Bessemer Grange Estate (very large country house with a lot of land attached) was being built up with council housing. My auntie, uncle and cousins were among the first to move into one of these houses and moved in before the rest had been built or the roads properly made - they were still muddy tracks. We used to squeeze into holes in the fencing to have a look at Bessemer Grange and to take 'short cuts' across its land. (This was the Bessemer who pioneered modern steel production.) This was situated at the back of the Salvation Army College and on the way down to Hearn Hill. Of course, very nearby was Ruskin Park which contained the country home of John Ruskin's family. I have a feeling that Ruskin Park, which became a public park, survives. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sandra Lovegrove" <sandra@lovegrove.org.uk> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2004 3:09 PM Subject: Re: [OEL] unusual occupation reprised > > perhaps the upper middle class housing development had already begun and > > your man was supplying some of these larger prestigious households with > > their coal and coke requirements. > > > > No doubt. This LOVEGROVE was a member of a family of yeomen farmers; > his father and uncles left Berkshire to come to south London - or rather rural > Camberwell as it then was - and became small property developers ("improvers" as > this was called at the time!) There are many very handsome Georgian terraces in > Walworth/Camberwell; the Labour Party used to have its headquarters offices in > one of them on the main Walworth Road. A couple of the houses in one of the > original terraces in a side street in Walworth were probably built by this > family, and there is still a Lovegrove Street off the Old Kent Road, now a dirty > little run-down unpaved lane with motor repair shops, etc. > > However, this man really was a dairyman/cowkeeper. His 16 year-old son was a > "cheesemonger's assistant", presumably to the grocer/cheesemonger just 2 census > schedules further on. In the 1871 census he was a "Cowkeeper occupier of 10 > acres" so the area around Denmark Hill was still delightfully rural. > > SANDRA > > Researching LOVEGROVEs in all places and at all times. > Please do visit the LOVEGROVE Information Centre on http://www.lovegrove.org.uk > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "norman.lee1" <norman.lee1@virgin.net> > To: "Sandra Lovegrove" <sandra@lovegrove.org.uk>; <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: 30 March 2004 15:05 > Subject: Re: [OEL] unusual occupation reprised > > > > An observation on the location as well as the occupation(s) - from what I > > remember of Lambeth, who would have thought that such a short time ago > > (historically speaking) a place could change so much! I was more familiar > > with the Lambeth of the 1960s and it was certainly on its way down then > > although, like many of the London suburbs at the time, you could see signs > > of the glories of yesteryear. What is more, these glories would have > > postdated the 1860s of the man you mention with most of the houses probably > > dating from 1880-1910. The time you mention must have been when, in the > > neighbouring parish, the Camberwell Beauty was still flourishing. But, > > perhaps the upper middle class housing development had already begun and > > your man was supplying some of these larger prestigious households with > > their coal and coke requirements. > > > > Audrey > > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > OLD-ENGLISH Web Page > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ >