Matt, Thanks again. The one with Jevne, didn't have le in front of it. I will see what it will cost to get the copies. I would be happy to have you look at them for me, if I can obtain them. I can't read latin, I can pick out a word here and there but that is it. Renee ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tompkins, M.L.L." <mllt1@leicester.ac.uk> To: <OLD-ENGLISH@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2009 11:59 AM Subject: Re: [OEL] Earl of Warwick-Beauchamp > It is always difficult to transcribe names with the letters u, n, m and i > in medieval records, and sometimes you just can't be sure what a name is > unless you can find several references to what is clearly the same man and > in at least one or two of them the letters are quite clear. But any form > of these names beginning with 'le' is certainly not a version of Janes, > since Janes is a patronym and no name beginning with 'le' can be a > patronym (and ditto for 'de', 'atte' and all other prepositions). If that > Jevne reference is preceded by 'le' it is probably Juvene - the Latin form > of Jeune. > > As a medieval social and economic historian I would be delighted to have a > copy of some sort (photo, photocopy, microfilm) of the manorial extents or > surveys in Guy de Beauchamp's IPM. If you're willing to incur the cost of > buying them from the PRO, I'd be happy to look through them for references > to individuals called Janes or similar for you, and translate any > relevant passages. > > Matt > > ________________________________________ > From: Renee [dennis.newman@cox.net] > Sent: 20 September 2009 13:58 > To: Tompkins, M.L.L.; OLD-ENGLISH@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [OEL] Earl of Warwick-Beauchamp > > Matt, > That is exactly what I had started wondering - if in fact the ones with > double n's (Janne) were u's or the u's (in Jeune/Jaune) were in fact n's. > One name was transcribed Jevne, so I was sure it was supposed to be a u or > an n. Some were written with only one n, as Janys or Janes, so I'm pretty > sure of them but suspect of the others could go either way. I'll have to > get the court rolls of Elmley Castle. I knew it was wrong when World Cat > showed the library in Sweden as the closest library. I may have a fellow > researcher in TN who can find it for me there. > > The Calender of Inquisitions Post Mortem for Guy de Bello Campo show many > lists of his manors in Worcester included names of the tenants. It > doesn't > say that for Elmley Castle for I see a few others that might be useful. > Just don't know if it would be worth the money to find out! > > Thanks so much Matt, > Renee > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tompkins, M.L.L." <mllt1@leicester.ac.uk> > To: <OLD-ENGLISH@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2009 3:23 AM > Subject: Re: [OEL] Earl of Warwick-Beauchamp > > >> Renee, most American university libraries will subscribe to >> theWorcestershire Historical Society's series, and many public reference >> libraries will too. I see from WorldCat that there are certainly copies >> of the Elmley Castle court roll volume in the libraries of the >> Universities of Tennessee, Chicago and Illinois, and in the Newberry >> Library in Chicago, and in other libraries in other states. >> >> The court rolls of the manor of Cropthorne, sometimes called Netherton, >> are held in Worcester Cathedral Library. Unusually Worcester Priory did >> not keep separate rolls for each manor it owned - instead all the courts >> held in all their manors each year were written up in a single large >> roll, >> with a new roll begun for the following year, so the Cropthorne courts >> are >> scattered among a large number of courts from other manors. I'm afraid >> they're in Latin and a very difficult medieval script. >> >> I'm not surprised to hear that your surname Janes can be found in the >> 1320s but not in the same places in the 1280s. I believe this was a >> common phenomenon in the West Midlands with surnames derived from >> diminutive forms of personal names - it was certainly the case with my >> own surname, Tomkins (= son of Thomas). I think it is probably for two >> reasons: first, that many surnames of this type did not come into >> existence until the early fourteenth century, and second, that even if >> they had come to existence, until the early fourteenth century the clerks >> who wrote up the records usually latinised surnames of this sort (so that >> someone called Tomkins or Janes was written down as 'filius Thome' or >> 'filius Johanne'). >> >> le Jeune is French for 'the young', so is a different surname from Janne >> or Jannes. Janue is an odd form, but 'u' and 'n' were almost >> indistinguishable in medieval script, so perhaps it ought to have been >> transcribed as Janne (or as Jaune, ie Jeune!). >> >> Yes, Avisia would be a woman (Avice in English). Hawisia was a different >> name, but also a female one (usually anglicised to Hawise). >> >> Matt >> >> ________________________________________ >> From: Renee [dennis.newman@cox.net] >> Sent: 20 September 2009 03:29 >> To: Tompkins, M.L.L.; OLD-ENGLISH@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [OEL] Earl of Warwick-Beauchamp >> >> Matt, >> Thank you very much, you just answered the question I had! I am sorry I >> didn't make it clear that I meant other manors of the Earl of Warwick. >> >> I looked on WorldCat (through google book search) and it shows the >> closest >> library that holds the book is in Sweden. I am sure that is incorrect >> but >> being in Arkansas, I doubt I'll find it anywhere close. Last month a >> copy >> sold on ebay for less than $10. but that doesn't help now, either. >> >> Could you tell me where the manor records for Netherton are held? >> >> I have searched the earlier subsidy roll (I think between 1275-1283 is >> when >> they date it). I don't see any Janes on it, in 1327 there are about 15 >> Jannes/Janne's listed, I think some records are for the same men but >> there >> are at least 4 different first names for men, plus two woman (I think >> Avisia >> would be a woman, I see another reference to an Avisia who's name was >> also >> spelled Hawvisia). It doesn't seem right (to me) for that many of them >> to >> be there in 1327 and none in circa 1280. I wondered if the surname was >> taken sometime in between the two rolls. I thought court rolls might >> help >> determine that one way or the other. I also found the 1332-3 subsidy >> roll >> but it is a fragmentl and doesn't have all of the locations they were in. >> How-ever there is this name Jeune in the earlier roll, which is at least >> interesting. >> 1275-82 roll for Bretforten Henrico le Jeune xld. >> 1327 Alington and Bretforten (combined) Henrico Janne ijs. (no >> Janue/Jeune's >> listed) (also a Henrico Janne taxed in Great Comberton) >> 1332/3 Bretforten Willelmo Janue ijs. and in Aldynton a Thoma Janue ijs, >> How-ever there are other Jeune's listed as a surname and as le Jeune in >> other places in the roll, so I'm not sure if it could be the same. >> >> If I understand the taxation correctly (which I may not). Johanne Jannes >> of >> "Castel Elmeleye" seemed to have an equal holding (or at least equal >> taxation) as that of Thomas de Beauchamp, and no one on the list was >> taxed >> more than either of them at xviijd. Johanne Janys at Ekynton was taxed >> ijs >> vid only one person (out of 25) was taxed more than him and that was >> Roberto >> de Muchegros. I assume that this is one Johanne Janes, with two holdings >> but he doesn't appear on the earlier roll unless he could be the Johanne >> of >> "Cornubia" at Elmley Castle. >> >> Thanks again, >> Renee >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Tompkins, M.L.L." <mllt1@leicester.ac.uk> >> To: <OLD-ENGLISH@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2009 4:39 PM >> Subject: Re: [OEL] Earl of Warwick-Beauchamp >> >> >>> <<I have a question about the Beauchamp/Bello Campo's, I thought someone >>> might know the answer to. I have a Janes family who were in Worcester >>> in >>> the 1327 Lay Subsiday Rolls in and around Emley Castle. It seems most >>> of >>> the parishes they were in were held by the Bello Campo's. I can find >>> little else on them. >>> >>> I have found that Worcester Record Office houses the Court Rolls of >>> Elmley >>> Castle but I wondered if there are more records of the Earl of Warwick >>> held somewhere that date to this period. I have written to Worcester >>> Record Office about obtaining copies of the Court Rolls. Does anyone >>> know >>> if there are more records of the Earl of Warwick at this time?>> >>> >>> >>> Dear Renee, >>> >>> Robert K. Field has produced a translation of the Elmley Castle manor >>> court rolls which was published by the Worcestershire Historical Society >>> in 2004 as "Court rolls of Elmley Castle, Worcestershire 1347-1564", . >>> You may be able to find it in a reference library, which will save you >>> the >>> cost of obtaining copies of the original rolls, and a great deal of >>> effort >>> trying to decipher the medieval Latin in which they are written. >>> Unfortunately, as you will see from the title, Elmley Castle's court >>> rolls >>> only begin in 1347 (there are seven courts from 1347-50, then a gap, >>> then >>> they start again in 1356 - their Worcester RO reference is (BA 899.95) >>> 989/1). >>> >>> When you ask whether there are any other records of the Beauchamp earls >>> of >>> Warwick from this period (the first half of the fourteenth century), do >>> you mean other types of records from Elmley Castle (ie other than court >>> rolls)? I do not know if any exist, but Robert Field's introduction to >>> his edition may tell you if there are any (if you're lucky there may be >>> a >>> rental or survey or extent, which would list all the manor's tenants by >>> name and perhaps describe their tenancies - there may also be account >>> rolls, but these are financial documents, unlikely to name many >>> individuals). Otherwise the most certain simple way to discover what >>> records survive from a given manor is to consult the Manorial Documents >>> Register, now located at The National Records at Kew (the former PRO) - >>> but unfortunately that can only be done by a personal visit, so far as >>> I'm >>> aware. >>> >>> If you mean, any records from other manors of the earls of Warwick near >>> Elmley Castle, then I can tell that there are unlikely to be any such >>> court rolls (none from before 1350, at least - I do not know about later >>> periods), because two years ago I made an attempt to locate all >>> surviving >>> pre-1350 court rolls from manors in Worcestershire, Gloucs, Herefs, >>> Salop >>> and Staffs and found none from other manors of the earls of Warwick >>> anywhere in those five counties. So far as court rolls from manors of >>> other lords are concerned, the nearest I found to Elmley Castle were >>> from >>> the Worcester Priory manors of Cropthorne/Netherton, Sedgeberrow and >>> Overbury/Teddington (which begin 1314 and are reasonably continuous up >>> to >>> 1350) and a Winchcombe Abbey manor at Twyning in Gloucs (just five >>> pre-1350 courts, from 1341-2). For other types of manorial record you'd >>> have to consult the Manorial Documents Register, though some Google >>> searches might reveal some individual documents. >>> >>> Matt Tompkins >>> >>> >>> ==================================== >>> WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ >>> ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ==================================== >> WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ >> ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ==================================== > WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message