Hi all, thanks for all the thoughts, sorry I've not responded sooner but I've been away. However: Barker is the person's name, it's a well established surname in the area, which is Melford in Suffolk. Audrey, your point about the two sources is a good one, but doesn't work in this case - the list of people in the militia (these are the people who went, the substitutes whose families are getting supported while they are away) comes about 2 pages later in the same quarter's poor relief payments, and there's no Barker in any of the previous ones either. There's no local source which gives the names of the peope who were originally pricked so no chance of getting the two confused. Intriguing as it is, it's not important enough to me at the moment to go rooting around in the National Archives, but as 'Irish Pay' doesn't seem to be a pseudonym for something completely different it must have some military link ... but not one I'm going to establish at the moment! But more ideas very welcome! Thanks again for the thoughts Lyn B ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roy Cox" <roy.cox@btinternet.com> To: <old-english@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2009 1:56 PM Subject: Re: [OEL] Irish Pay > > Audrey - > > "Flying" up the right tree may be a better thought? > > You may well be right connection to surnames reminded persons who they > were > and what they did. > > Having "skip-read" through a couple of books I have on surnames, there > seems > not to be any point in time that one could say yes or no to this. The only > thing that can be said is that these occupational names became the subject > of error from handwriting and the spoken word at about c.17th - 19th > centuries, so that Barker could quite easily change to Banker, Backer > Etc!!! > and vice-versa > > Cheers > Roy > > -----Original Message----- > From: A Lee [mailto:alee231@btinternet.com] > Sent: 13 September 2009 22:53 > To: ROY COX > Subject: Re: [OEL] Irish Pay > > Hello again Roy. I was thinking that by 1800 the connection to occupations > of surnames would no longer apply, having settled into use by descendants > who had acquired various other occupations, hence my name of Hawkes no > longer, by that time, being anything to do with falconry. Or am I > "barking" > up the wrong tree? > > Audrey > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "ROY COX" <roy.cox@btinternet.com> > To: <old-english@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 6:34 PM > Subject: Re: [OEL] Irish Pay > > > No doubt about that at all, most names evolved from a variety of > occupations > > and environments. I did make a small reference to the "Fairground" type of > Barking but I didn't call it that; but all reference books do include that > definition though which you are quite right about. > > NIce also to be in touch here again, it seemed as if Rootsweb had given us > the push!!!. Ha-Ha! > > Kind Regards > > Roy > > > --- On Sat, 12/9/09, A Lee <alee231@btinternet.com> wrote: > > > From: A Lee <alee231@btinternet.com> > Subject: Re: [OEL] Irish Pay > To: "Roy Cox" <roy.cox@btinternet.com> > Date: Saturday, 12 September, 2009, 11:21 PM > > > Hello Roy > > Do you think that by 1800 a number of occupational names would have been > just passed down as surnames, e.g. Smith, Taylor etc and therefore also > Barker, Tanner and so on? I'm sure that by that time my maiden name of > Hawkes no longer had anything to do with falconry. They all worked on or > around the River Thames as various sorts of mariner. Another consideration > with the name Barker, in earlier times, could have been calling out at a > fairground or similar, couldn't it? Interesting about the connection to > tanning though. I'd forgotten that they would have needed a lot of bark > gathering and so a particular labourer could have been called a barker. > > Nice to be in touch again. > Audrey > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Roy Cox" <roy.cox@btinternet.com> > To: "'A Lee'" <alee231@btinternet.com> > Cc: <old-english@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2009 9:33 PM > Subject: RE: [OEL] Irish Pay > > >> Hi Audrey - >> >> Hope you are well? - I think we had an armed force of some description in >> Ireland a few years before The Commonwealth when in the time of Lambert >> Simnel & Perkin Warbeck of Henry VII vintage who stated; in what seems to >> be >> disguised terms, in order to underline an important truth about danger >> for >> the English Crown from within the British Isles themselves. that Ireland >> and >> Scotland were both trouble spots. This era seems just as troublesome >> then, >> as it has been ever since at different times. Like all things it was a >> mixture of politics and personal gain. >> >> The experience of Henry VII's reign is quite well documented in an ex >> Buckinghamshire County Library book; England under the Tudors. But >> soldiering did not come to be realised as a profession until Cromwell's >> time >> when he formed his Model Army, a well trained and professional force, >> somewhat similar one supposes, to that of today's fighting force, but of >> under much differing circumstances and armoury, but of the same temper?? >> >> Looking back at Lyn's letter I see that the period was 1800 (Sorry Lyn I >> didn't look properly!), a time when all manner of differences were being >> fought for, both here and abroad. >> >> Thinking of Lyn's reference to Poor Relief payments, there was the >> surname >> of BARKER used in the 10th - 11th centuries and probably further on? - >> One >> origin if of Olde French meaning a shepherd but would be >> indistinguishable >> (my book says) from meaning a tanner. We then come to a variation Thomas >> del >> BARKHOUSE meaning that Thomas was of the Tannery. Logically this could >> then >> be pay to the tanner's wife for performing some task which involved some >> Irish connection? >> >> Finally, the entry concedes the name Barker and its variants to be >> occupational and in this case, a Tanner. >> >> Cheers >> Roy >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: A Lee [mailto:alee231@btinternet.com] >> Sent: 12 September 2009 11:05 >> To: Roy Cox; old-english@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [OEL] Irish Pay >> >> Hello Roy >> >> It occurs to me that it may be worth while looking at the constitution of >> the English army in Ireland at that time. We seem to have more or less >> kept >> soldiers in that country ever since Cromwell's time. I think you would >> know >> more about military sources than I do but I have a feeling that the War >> Office have archives. Am I right. >> >> Audrey >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Roy Cox" <roy.cox@btinternet.com> >> To: <old-english@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2009 10:49 AM >> Subject: Re: [OEL] Irish Pay >> >> >>> Hi - sorry to be a bit late in replying Lyn - I seem to have "mislaid" >>> your >>> email but if I remember rightly, the area is Sussex? >>> >>> The thought occurs "Is this word 'Barker'" the name of a person or does >>> it >>> refer to someone doing something, like a tout advertising wares, a show >>> etc., in a loud voice to attract custom? - a recruiting Sgt would have >>> done >>> so also in those days! >>> >>> Maybe the Irish Pay was paid to a recruiting Sgt's wife whilst he was on >>> service in Ireland, or on his death, being the residue of his pay due? >>> >>> As it seems this was a one-off entry, this could be the answer, >>> especially >>> as the parish concerned was not near Ireland. >>> >>> Do we know the date of this entry or any further detail from the records >>> concerned? >>> >>> Cheers >>> Roy >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: old-english-bounces@rootsweb.com >>> [mailto:old-english-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lyn Boothman >>> Sent: 12 September 2009 01:58 >>> To: A Lee; old-english@rootsweb.com >>> Subject: Re: [OEL] Irish Pay >>> >>> Thanks Audrey >>> I don't have any idea of the regiment - but since I sent the email I've >>> come >>> >>> across a list of the people who were off in the militia at the time, >>> whose >>> families were being supported, and there's no Barker amongst them ...so >>> end >>> >>> of that idea. >>> >>> Lyn B >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "A Lee" <alee231@btinternet.com> >>> To: "Lyn Boothman" <annys@boothman27.fsnet.co.uk> >>> Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 11:40 PM >>> Subject: Re: [OEL] Irish Pay >>> >>> >>>> >>>> Do you know the name of the Militia, i.e. is it a local militia or is >>>> it >>>> a >>> >>>> regiment? Who funds the militia? Presumably it's the parish? If you >>>> know >>>> the name of the regiment then you should be able to trace its >>>> activities >>>> at this time. I have to admit that I have no knowledge of military >>>> history >>> >>>> but we do seem to have had troupes in Ireland for a long time over a >>>> number of centuries, e.g. Oliver Cromwell's men were there and, much >>>> later, the Black and Tans - all detested by the Irish. Even Lloyd >>>> George >>>> had to try to solve the "Irish Problem". >>>> >>>> Audrey >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Lyn Boothman" <annys@boothman27.fsnet.co.uk> >>>> To: <OLD-ENGLISH@rootsw> Sent: Thursday, September 10, eb.com> >>> 2009 10:38 PM >>>> Subject: [OEL] Irish Pay >>>> >>>> >>>>> Can anyone help? >>>>> >>>>> I am working my way through some poor relief payments from 1800 and >>>>> it's >>>>> a bit of a scrawl but all very straightforward, just like loads of >>>>> others, until I got to >>>>> >>>>> 'To 5 weeks Irish pay to Barker's wife, 8d a week' 3s 4d >>>>> >>>>> This is the first time I've come across the term 'Irish pay'. I tried >>>>> Google but of course you get Irish pay rises, the Irish pay for this >>>>> and >>>>> that and the other etc ... >>>>> >>>>> The Overseers are regularly paying for to support the families of men >>>>> in >>>>> the Militia, so could Barker be in Ireland in the militia? Or is there >>>>> some other meaning of 'Irish pay' that someone knows about. >>>>> It's very clear on the page so I don't think it's a misreading. >>>>> >>>>> Lyn B >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ==================================== >>>>> WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ >>>>> ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>>>> the >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. >>>>> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >>>>> Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.12.5/147 - Release Date: >>>>> 24/10/2005 >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ==================================== >>> WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ >>> ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> ==================================== >>> WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ >>> ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. >>> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >>> Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.12.5/147 - Release Date: >>> 24/10/2005 >>> >>> >> >> >> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > > > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.12.5/147 - Release Date: 24/10/2005 > > > > > > ==================================== > WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > -- > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.12.5/147 - Release Date: 24/10/2005 > > > > > > > ==================================== > WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >