Matt, That is exactly what I had started wondering - if in fact the ones with double n's (Janne) were u's or the u's (in Jeune/Jaune) were in fact n's. One name was transcribed Jevne, so I was sure it was supposed to be a u or an n. Some were written with only one n, as Janys or Janes, so I'm pretty sure of them but suspect of the others could go either way. I'll have to get the court rolls of Elmley Castle. I knew it was wrong when World Cat showed the library in Sweden as the closest library. I may have a fellow researcher in TN who can find it for me there. The Calender of Inquisitions Post Mortem for Guy de Bello Campo show many lists of his manors in Worcester included names of the tenants. It doesn't say that for Elmley Castle for I see a few others that might be useful. Just don't know if it would be worth the money to find out! Thanks so much Matt, Renee ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tompkins, M.L.L." <mllt1@leicester.ac.uk> To: <OLD-ENGLISH@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2009 3:23 AM Subject: Re: [OEL] Earl of Warwick-Beauchamp > Renee, most American university libraries will subscribe to > theWorcestershire Historical Society's series, and many public reference > libraries will too. I see from WorldCat that there are certainly copies > of the Elmley Castle court roll volume in the libraries of the > Universities of Tennessee, Chicago and Illinois, and in the Newberry > Library in Chicago, and in other libraries in other states. > > The court rolls of the manor of Cropthorne, sometimes called Netherton, > are held in Worcester Cathedral Library. Unusually Worcester Priory did > not keep separate rolls for each manor it owned - instead all the courts > held in all their manors each year were written up in a single large roll, > with a new roll begun for the following year, so the Cropthorne courts are > scattered among a large number of courts from other manors. I'm afraid > they're in Latin and a very difficult medieval script. > > I'm not surprised to hear that your surname Janes can be found in the > 1320s but not in the same places in the 1280s. I believe this was a > common phenomenon in the West Midlands with surnames derived from > diminutive forms of personal names - it was certainly the case with my > own surname, Tomkins (= son of Thomas). I think it is probably for two > reasons: first, that many surnames of this type did not come into > existence until the early fourteenth century, and second, that even if > they had come to existence, until the early fourteenth century the clerks > who wrote up the records usually latinised surnames of this sort (so that > someone called Tomkins or Janes was written down as 'filius Thome' or > 'filius Johanne'). > > le Jeune is French for 'the young', so is a different surname from Janne > or Jannes. Janue is an odd form, but 'u' and 'n' were almost > indistinguishable in medieval script, so perhaps it ought to have been > transcribed as Janne (or as Jaune, ie Jeune!). > > Yes, Avisia would be a woman (Avice in English). Hawisia was a different > name, but also a female one (usually anglicised to Hawise). > > Matt > > ________________________________________ > From: Renee [dennis.newman@cox.net] > Sent: 20 September 2009 03:29 > To: Tompkins, M.L.L.; OLD-ENGLISH@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [OEL] Earl of Warwick-Beauchamp > > Matt, > Thank you very much, you just answered the question I had! I am sorry I > didn't make it clear that I meant other manors of the Earl of Warwick. > > I looked on WorldCat (through google book search) and it shows the closest > library that holds the book is in Sweden. I am sure that is incorrect but > being in Arkansas, I doubt I'll find it anywhere close. Last month a copy > sold on ebay for less than $10. but that doesn't help now, either. > > Could you tell me where the manor records for Netherton are held? > > I have searched the earlier subsidy roll (I think between 1275-1283 is > when > they date it). I don't see any Janes on it, in 1327 there are about 15 > Jannes/Janne's listed, I think some records are for the same men but there > are at least 4 different first names for men, plus two woman (I think > Avisia > would be a woman, I see another reference to an Avisia who's name was also > spelled Hawvisia). It doesn't seem right (to me) for that many of them to > be there in 1327 and none in circa 1280. I wondered if the surname was > taken sometime in between the two rolls. I thought court rolls might > help > determine that one way or the other. I also found the 1332-3 subsidy roll > but it is a fragmentl and doesn't have all of the locations they were in. > How-ever there is this name Jeune in the earlier roll, which is at least > interesting. > 1275-82 roll for Bretforten Henrico le Jeune xld. > 1327 Alington and Bretforten (combined) Henrico Janne ijs. (no > Janue/Jeune's > listed) (also a Henrico Janne taxed in Great Comberton) > 1332/3 Bretforten Willelmo Janue ijs. and in Aldynton a Thoma Janue ijs, > How-ever there are other Jeune's listed as a surname and as le Jeune in > other places in the roll, so I'm not sure if it could be the same. > > If I understand the taxation correctly (which I may not). Johanne Jannes > of > "Castel Elmeleye" seemed to have an equal holding (or at least equal > taxation) as that of Thomas de Beauchamp, and no one on the list was taxed > more than either of them at xviijd. Johanne Janys at Ekynton was taxed > ijs > vid only one person (out of 25) was taxed more than him and that was > Roberto > de Muchegros. I assume that this is one Johanne Janes, with two holdings > but he doesn't appear on the earlier roll unless he could be the Johanne > of > "Cornubia" at Elmley Castle. > > Thanks again, > Renee > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tompkins, M.L.L." <mllt1@leicester.ac.uk> > To: <OLD-ENGLISH@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2009 4:39 PM > Subject: Re: [OEL] Earl of Warwick-Beauchamp > > >> <<I have a question about the Beauchamp/Bello Campo's, I thought someone >> might know the answer to. I have a Janes family who were in Worcester in >> the 1327 Lay Subsiday Rolls in and around Emley Castle. It seems most of >> the parishes they were in were held by the Bello Campo's. I can find >> little else on them. >> >> I have found that Worcester Record Office houses the Court Rolls of >> Elmley >> Castle but I wondered if there are more records of the Earl of Warwick >> held somewhere that date to this period. I have written to Worcester >> Record Office about obtaining copies of the Court Rolls. Does anyone >> know >> if there are more records of the Earl of Warwick at this time?>> >> >> >> Dear Renee, >> >> Robert K. Field has produced a translation of the Elmley Castle manor >> court rolls which was published by the Worcestershire Historical Society >> in 2004 as "Court rolls of Elmley Castle, Worcestershire 1347-1564", . >> You may be able to find it in a reference library, which will save you >> the >> cost of obtaining copies of the original rolls, and a great deal of >> effort >> trying to decipher the medieval Latin in which they are written. >> Unfortunately, as you will see from the title, Elmley Castle's court >> rolls >> only begin in 1347 (there are seven courts from 1347-50, then a gap, then >> they start again in 1356 - their Worcester RO reference is (BA 899.95) >> 989/1). >> >> When you ask whether there are any other records of the Beauchamp earls >> of >> Warwick from this period (the first half of the fourteenth century), do >> you mean other types of records from Elmley Castle (ie other than court >> rolls)? I do not know if any exist, but Robert Field's introduction to >> his edition may tell you if there are any (if you're lucky there may be a >> rental or survey or extent, which would list all the manor's tenants by >> name and perhaps describe their tenancies - there may also be account >> rolls, but these are financial documents, unlikely to name many >> individuals). Otherwise the most certain simple way to discover what >> records survive from a given manor is to consult the Manorial Documents >> Register, now located at The National Records at Kew (the former PRO) - >> but unfortunately that can only be done by a personal visit, so far as >> I'm >> aware. >> >> If you mean, any records from other manors of the earls of Warwick near >> Elmley Castle, then I can tell that there are unlikely to be any such >> court rolls (none from before 1350, at least - I do not know about later >> periods), because two years ago I made an attempt to locate all surviving >> pre-1350 court rolls from manors in Worcestershire, Gloucs, Herefs, Salop >> and Staffs and found none from other manors of the earls of Warwick >> anywhere in those five counties. So far as court rolls from manors of >> other lords are concerned, the nearest I found to Elmley Castle were from >> the Worcester Priory manors of Cropthorne/Netherton, Sedgeberrow and >> Overbury/Teddington (which begin 1314 and are reasonably continuous up to >> 1350) and a Winchcombe Abbey manor at Twyning in Gloucs (just five >> pre-1350 courts, from 1341-2). For other types of manorial record you'd >> have to consult the Manorial Documents Register, though some Google >> searches might reveal some individual documents. >> >> Matt Tompkins >> >> >> ==================================== >> WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ >> ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ==================================== > WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

It is always difficult to transcribe names with the letters u, n, m and i in medieval records, and sometimes you just can't be sure what a name is unless you can find several references to what is clearly the same man and in at least one or two of them the letters are quite clear. But any form of these names beginning with 'le' is certainly not a version of Janes, since Janes is a patronym and no name beginning with 'le' can be a patronym (and ditto for 'de', 'atte' and all other prepositions). If that Jevne reference is preceded by 'le' it is probably Juvene - the Latin form of Jeune. As a medieval social and economic historian I would be delighted to have a copy of some sort (photo, photocopy, microfilm) of the manorial extents or surveys in Guy de Beauchamp's IPM. If you're willing to incur the cost of buying them from the PRO, I'd be happy to look through them for references to individuals called Janes or similar for you, and translate any relevant passages. Matt ________________________________________ From: Renee [dennis.newman@cox.net] Sent: 20 September 2009 13:58 To: Tompkins, M.L.L.; OLD-ENGLISH@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [OEL] Earl of Warwick-Beauchamp Matt, That is exactly what I had started wondering - if in fact the ones with double n's (Janne) were u's or the u's (in Jeune/Jaune) were in fact n's. One name was transcribed Jevne, so I was sure it was supposed to be a u or an n. Some were written with only one n, as Janys or Janes, so I'm pretty sure of them but suspect of the others could go either way. I'll have to get the court rolls of Elmley Castle. I knew it was wrong when World Cat showed the library in Sweden as the closest library. I may have a fellow researcher in TN who can find it for me there. The Calender of Inquisitions Post Mortem for Guy de Bello Campo show many lists of his manors in Worcester included names of the tenants. It doesn't say that for Elmley Castle for I see a few others that might be useful. Just don't know if it would be worth the money to find out! Thanks so much Matt, Renee ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tompkins, M.L.L." <mllt1@leicester.ac.uk> To: <OLD-ENGLISH@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2009 3:23 AM Subject: Re: [OEL] Earl of Warwick-Beauchamp > Renee, most American university libraries will subscribe to > theWorcestershire Historical Society's series, and many public reference > libraries will too. I see from WorldCat that there are certainly copies > of the Elmley Castle court roll volume in the libraries of the > Universities of Tennessee, Chicago and Illinois, and in the Newberry > Library in Chicago, and in other libraries in other states. > > The court rolls of the manor of Cropthorne, sometimes called Netherton, > are held in Worcester Cathedral Library. Unusually Worcester Priory did > not keep separate rolls for each manor it owned - instead all the courts > held in all their manors each year were written up in a single large roll, > with a new roll begun for the following year, so the Cropthorne courts are > scattered among a large number of courts from other manors. I'm afraid > they're in Latin and a very difficult medieval script. > > I'm not surprised to hear that your surname Janes can be found in the > 1320s but not in the same places in the 1280s. I believe this was a > common phenomenon in the West Midlands with surnames derived from > diminutive forms of personal names - it was certainly the case with my > own surname, Tomkins (= son of Thomas). I think it is probably for two > reasons: first, that many surnames of this type did not come into > existence until the early fourteenth century, and second, that even if > they had come to existence, until the early fourteenth century the clerks > who wrote up the records usually latinised surnames of this sort (so that > someone called Tomkins or Janes was written down as 'filius Thome' or > 'filius Johanne'). > > le Jeune is French for 'the young', so is a different surname from Janne > or Jannes. Janue is an odd form, but 'u' and 'n' were almost > indistinguishable in medieval script, so perhaps it ought to have been > transcribed as Janne (or as Jaune, ie Jeune!). > > Yes, Avisia would be a woman (Avice in English). Hawisia was a different > name, but also a female one (usually anglicised to Hawise). > > Matt > > ________________________________________ > From: Renee [dennis.newman@cox.net] > Sent: 20 September 2009 03:29 > To: Tompkins, M.L.L.; OLD-ENGLISH@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [OEL] Earl of Warwick-Beauchamp > > Matt, > Thank you very much, you just answered the question I had! I am sorry I > didn't make it clear that I meant other manors of the Earl of Warwick. > > I looked on WorldCat (through google book search) and it shows the closest > library that holds the book is in Sweden. I am sure that is incorrect but > being in Arkansas, I doubt I'll find it anywhere close. Last month a copy > sold on ebay for less than $10. but that doesn't help now, either. > > Could you tell me where the manor records for Netherton are held? > > I have searched the earlier subsidy roll (I think between 1275-1283 is > when > they date it). I don't see any Janes on it, in 1327 there are about 15 > Jannes/Janne's listed, I think some records are for the same men but there > are at least 4 different first names for men, plus two woman (I think > Avisia > would be a woman, I see another reference to an Avisia who's name was also > spelled Hawvisia). It doesn't seem right (to me) for that many of them to > be there in 1327 and none in circa 1280. I wondered if the surname was > taken sometime in between the two rolls. I thought court rolls might > help > determine that one way or the other. I also found the 1332-3 subsidy roll > but it is a fragmentl and doesn't have all of the locations they were in. > How-ever there is this name Jeune in the earlier roll, which is at least > interesting. > 1275-82 roll for Bretforten Henrico le Jeune xld. > 1327 Alington and Bretforten (combined) Henrico Janne ijs. (no > Janue/Jeune's > listed) (also a Henrico Janne taxed in Great Comberton) > 1332/3 Bretforten Willelmo Janue ijs. and in Aldynton a Thoma Janue ijs, > How-ever there are other Jeune's listed as a surname and as le Jeune in > other places in the roll, so I'm not sure if it could be the same. > > If I understand the taxation correctly (which I may not). Johanne Jannes > of > "Castel Elmeleye" seemed to have an equal holding (or at least equal > taxation) as that of Thomas de Beauchamp, and no one on the list was taxed > more than either of them at xviijd. Johanne Janys at Ekynton was taxed > ijs > vid only one person (out of 25) was taxed more than him and that was > Roberto > de Muchegros. I assume that this is one Johanne Janes, with two holdings > but he doesn't appear on the earlier roll unless he could be the Johanne > of > "Cornubia" at Elmley Castle. > > Thanks again, > Renee > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tompkins, M.L.L." <mllt1@leicester.ac.uk> > To: <OLD-ENGLISH@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2009 4:39 PM > Subject: Re: [OEL] Earl of Warwick-Beauchamp > > >> <<I have a question about the Beauchamp/Bello Campo's, I thought someone >> might know the answer to. I have a Janes family who were in Worcester in >> the 1327 Lay Subsiday Rolls in and around Emley Castle. It seems most of >> the parishes they were in were held by the Bello Campo's. I can find >> little else on them. >> >> I have found that Worcester Record Office houses the Court Rolls of >> Elmley >> Castle but I wondered if there are more records of the Earl of Warwick >> held somewhere that date to this period. I have written to Worcester >> Record Office about obtaining copies of the Court Rolls. Does anyone >> know >> if there are more records of the Earl of Warwick at this time?>> >> >> >> Dear Renee, >> >> Robert K. Field has produced a translation of the Elmley Castle manor >> court rolls which was published by the Worcestershire Historical Society >> in 2004 as "Court rolls of Elmley Castle, Worcestershire 1347-1564", . >> You may be able to find it in a reference library, which will save you >> the >> cost of obtaining copies of the original rolls, and a great deal of >> effort >> trying to decipher the medieval Latin in which they are written. >> Unfortunately, as you will see from the title, Elmley Castle's court >> rolls >> only begin in 1347 (there are seven courts from 1347-50, then a gap, then >> they start again in 1356 - their Worcester RO reference is (BA 899.95) >> 989/1). >> >> When you ask whether there are any other records of the Beauchamp earls >> of >> Warwick from this period (the first half of the fourteenth century), do >> you mean other types of records from Elmley Castle (ie other than court >> rolls)? I do not know if any exist, but Robert Field's introduction to >> his edition may tell you if there are any (if you're lucky there may be a >> rental or survey or extent, which would list all the manor's tenants by >> name and perhaps describe their tenancies - there may also be account >> rolls, but these are financial documents, unlikely to name many >> individuals). Otherwise the most certain simple way to discover what >> records survive from a given manor is to consult the Manorial Documents >> Register, now located at The National Records at Kew (the former PRO) - >> but unfortunately that can only be done by a personal visit, so far as >> I'm >> aware. >> >> If you mean, any records from other manors of the earls of Warwick near >> Elmley Castle, then I can tell that there are unlikely to be any such >> court rolls (none from before 1350, at least - I do not know about later >> periods), because two years ago I made an attempt to locate all surviving >> pre-1350 court rolls from manors in Worcestershire, Gloucs, Herefs, Salop >> and Staffs and found none from other manors of the earls of Warwick >> anywhere in those five counties. So far as court rolls from manors of >> other lords are concerned, the nearest I found to Elmley Castle were from >> the Worcester Priory manors of Cropthorne/Netherton, Sedgeberrow and >> Overbury/Teddington (which begin 1314 and are reasonably continuous up to >> 1350) and a Winchcombe Abbey manor at Twyning in Gloucs (just five >> pre-1350 courts, from 1341-2). For other types of manorial record you'd >> have to consult the Manorial Documents Register, though some Google >> searches might reveal some individual documents. >> >> Matt Tompkins >> >> >> ==================================== >> WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ >> ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ==================================== > WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message