Good morning I received, with thanks, Liz' translation of the first page of the inventory. I confess to having some problems posting it on the web page because of the vertical ) marks on the right. This means the use of tables, otherwise the alignment comes out all over the place. I have created a table in Dreamweaver and have posted it to the website, but for some reason there is a large blank space between the top of the page and where the table begins. I will continue to try to figure out what I've done wrong and will get this fixed in the near future. Probably just some little bit of mysterious code that I need to add. Rather than delay because of this, the link to the inventory --- and the first part of the transcription provided by Liz --- is: http://www.lordoflucies.com/tng/showmedia.php?mediaID=729&medialinkID=1476 You'll think, at first, that the content is missing, but if you scroll down you'll see Liz' transcription and then the document itself. As for the document, I have merged pages 1, 2, and 3 in Photoshop to create a single document. There was a certain amount of overlap on each page, and I thought it would be best to simply create a single image of the entire document. This, too, is posted at the link above --- again, please just scroll down to see it all. I have a high-resolution version of the single document if y'all would like it: I can post it as a downloadable .jpg image. Of necessity, the document posted at the bottom of the web page is a lower resolution (72 dpi) version. As always, please let me know if I've made any mistakes, or if there are any corrections, etc. In the meantime, I will try to figure out how to get rid of the annoying blank space at the top of the table/document. Thank you again for the time you're spending on this. It is very much appreciated. Kind regards, Craig Craig W Walsh Lucies Farm Ltd * Whitecroft * Colletts Green * Worcester WR2 4RY ***************************************************************** t 01905 830 380 m 07833 433 871 In the United States: 888-880-1531 See our online photo gallery at www.bark.ch Stock imagery available at www.hmdp.net ***************************************************************** Privacy and Confidentiality Notice This is strictly confidential and intended solely for the person or organisation to whom it is addressed. It may contain privileged and confidential information and if you are not an intended recipient, you must not copy, distribute or take any action in reliance on it. If you have received this message in error, please notify us as soon as possible and delete it and any attached files from your system.

This is Mary, wife of Richard Crumplehere, whose 1594/5 will we transcribed last weekend. I think she didn't say her husband is William Crumplehere - rather she gave him her husband's best coat (the sentence is 'I geve to W[illia]m Crumplehere my husband_ beste coate' and I think the strong tail at the end of 'husband', though it definitely doesn't loop, nevertheless indicates a gentival 'es', making it 'I give to William Crumplehere my husband's best coat.' The probate entry says (translated): The 19th day of the month of November AD 1595 was granted and [sic] administration of all and singular the goods rights and credits of Mary Crumplehere deceased late while she lived parishioner of Winterborne Kingeston in the peculiar jurisdiction of the Dean of Sarum 'ab intestas deceden' to Richard Michell Thomas Strangwayes Hubert Galton and John Galton overseers and guardians of Thomas Crumplehere during his minority in the person of John Symons, sworn well and faithfully to administer and to pay the debts and also to exhibit an inventory and to render an account etc Saving the right of anybody I'm still baffled by the phrase " ab intestas deceden' ". I think the 'et' in the second line was intended to be followed (as in the probate endorsement of the same date on her husband's original will) by 'littere tutele' Matt ________________________________________ From: old-english-bounces@rootsweb.com [old-english-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Craig Walsh [craig@hmdp.com] Sent: 28 February 2009 16:31 To: mjcl Cc: davidmichael_uk@yahoo.co.uk; old-english@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [OEL] The Crumpler Wills Hi, Martyn --- Thank you! I've posted the document and your transcription at: http://www.lordoflucies.com/tng/showmedia.php?mediaID=721&medialinkID=1462 I confess to being at a loss as to who this Mary might be. She died in 1595, and her will indicates her husband was William and her son was Thomas. "Our" William --- with the 1614 will y'all so kindly helped me translate last week --- was married, at least at the time of his death, to Edith: http://www.lordoflucies.com/tng/getperson.php?personID=I0840&tree=Walsh And Edith's "lawful and natural son" was John, born (we believe) between 1590 and 1610. So if Edith was married to "our" William in this period, Mary couldn't have been married to him (her death was 1595). William's father, Thomas, had other children who's first names we don't know: http://www.lordoflucies.com/tng/getperson.php?personID=I0888&tree=Walsh Perhaps another William? Seems strange and unlikely. A project for the near future is to try to find the parish records for this period, if they still exist, and try to decipher how these people connected to one another. Please let me know if you have corrections, changes, etc., to the transcription now posted on the website. Yes, this is a great list with incredibly helpful folks. Thanks again. Kind regards, Craig Craig W Walsh Lucies Farm Ltd * Whitecroft * Colletts Green * Worcester WR2 4RY ***************************************************************** t 01905 830 380 m 07833 433 871 In the United States: 888-880-1531 See our online photo gallery at www.bark.ch Stock imagery available at www.hmdp.net ***************************************************************** From: mjcl [mailto:mjcl111@googlemail.com] Sent: 28 February 2009 15:37 To: Craig Walsh Subject: Re: [OEL] The Crumpler Wills Hi Craig, I have attached my first attempt ..... Mary Crumplehere's will of July 1595. You probably saw my comments to Liz Agar. So she should be posting her own efforts as I suggested. I'm not going to bulldoze through this one and will do alternate documents as I suggested to her. I would ask that you post my effort for all to see as you did Eusebeia's. That way other learn and I get my errors corrected!!. By now you have found out what a great bunch are on this list! And I'm sure that Judith Werner, who looks after the list. will be over the moon as this was the objective of the list when set up! All the best, Martyn Privacy and Confidentiality Notice This is strictly confidential and intended solely for the person or organisation to whom it is addressed. It may contain privileged and confidential information and if you are not an intended recipient, you must not copy, distribute or take any action in reliance on it. If you have received this message in error, please notify us as soon as possible and delete it and any attached files from your system. ==================================== WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Craig: Dorset has an excellent Online Parish Clerk (OPC) scheme. If the OPC for Winterborne Kingston hasn't contacted you yet, she may well soon do so. I think that she may well be of assistance to you, and you could also contribute usefully to the Kingston OPC site. If you don't hear from Jill soon, Google for "Dorset OPC" and follow the links. The DORSET Rootsweb list may also be a good place to "display" some of your CRUMPLERiana. HTH, Robert Hillier, Poole, Dorset

Hi Craig, I checked the LDS library catalog for records and found the info below. Your county records office probably has a copy, also, assuming that is where the parish records are archived now. The parish records were not listed so you may have to make do with the Bishop's Transcript. Hope this helps. Bob Newton Los Angeles, Cal. ****************************************************** Title: Bishop's transcripts for Winterborne-Kingston., 1580-1880 Authors: Church of England. Parish Church of Winterborne-Kingston (Dorsetshire). (Main Author) Notes: Microfilm of original at Wiltshire County Record Office, Trowbridge. High reduction film (42X); use high magnification reader. Subjects: England, Dorset, Winterborne-Kingston - Church records Format: Manuscript (On Film) Language: English Publication: Salt Lake City, Utah : Filmed by the Genealogical Society of Utah, 1986 Physical: on 2 microfilm reels ; 16 mm. Film Notes: Note - Location [Film] Bundles 1-4: baptisms and burials 1580-1846, marriages 1580-1836. - FHL BRITISH Film [ 1239259 Items 18-21 ] Bundle 5: baptisms and burials 1847-1880. - FHL BRITISH Film [ 1239260 Item 1 ] ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig Walsh" <craig@hmdp.com> To: "mjcl" <mjcl111@googlemail.com> Cc: <davidmichael_uk@yahoo.co.uk>; <old-english@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 8:31 AM Subject: Re: [OEL] The Crumpler Wills > Hi, Martyn --- > > Thank you! > > I've posted the document and your transcription at: > > http://www.lordoflucies.com/tng/showmedia.php?mediaID=721&medialinkID=1462 > > I confess to being at a loss as to who this Mary might be. She died in > 1595, and her will indicates her husband was William and her son was > Thomas. > > "Our" William --- with the 1614 will y'all so kindly helped me translate > last week --- was married, at least at the time of his death, to Edith: > > http://www.lordoflucies.com/tng/getperson.php?personID=I0840&tree=Walsh > > And Edith's "lawful and natural son" was John, born (we believe) between > 1590 and 1610. So if Edith was married to "our" William in this period, > Mary couldn't have been married to him (her death was 1595). > > William's father, Thomas, had other children who's first names we don't > know: > > http://www.lordoflucies.com/tng/getperson.php?personID=I0888&tree=Walsh > > Perhaps another William? Seems strange and unlikely. > > A project for the near future is to try to find the parish records for > this period, if they still exist, and try to decipher how these people > connected to one another. > > Please let me know if you have corrections, changes, etc., to the > transcription now posted on the website. > > Yes, this is a great list with incredibly helpful folks. Thanks again. > > Kind regards, > > Craig > > Craig W Walsh > Lucies Farm Ltd * Whitecroft * Colletts Green * Worcester WR2 4RY > ***************************************************************** > t 01905 830 380 m 07833 433 871 > In the United States: 888-880-1531 > See our online photo gallery at www.bark.ch > Stock imagery available at www.hmdp.net > ***************************************************************** > > From: mjcl [mailto:mjcl111@googlemail.com] > Sent: 28 February 2009 15:37 > To: Craig Walsh > Subject: Re: [OEL] The Crumpler Wills > > Hi Craig, > > I have attached my first attempt ..... Mary Crumplehere's will of July > 1595. You probably saw my comments to Liz Agar. So she should be posting > her own efforts as I suggested. I'm not going to bulldoze through this one > and will do alternate documents as I suggested to her. > I would ask that you post my effort for all to see as you did Eusebeia's. > That way other learn and I get my errors corrected!!. > By now you have found out what a great bunch are on this list! And I'm > sure that Judith Werner, who looks after the list. will be over the moon > as this was the objective of the list when set up! > > All the best, > > Martyn > > > Privacy and Confidentiality Notice > This is strictly confidential and intended solely for the person or > organisation to whom it is addressed. It may contain privileged and > confidential information and if you are not an intended recipient, you > must not copy, distribute or take any action in reliance on it. If you > have received this message in error, please notify us as soon as possible > and delete it and any attached files from your system. > > > > ==================================== > WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi Craig If you can get into the HTML code for your webpage - either with your software, or just use "View source" in Internet Explorer (make sure you are looking at the file on your HDD, not on your website) you use the following tags: For superscript eg 26th with the th up in the air use 26^th making sure there are no spaces For subscripts use, in a similar manner, the tags _and HTH Polly ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig Walsh" <craig@hmdp.com> To: "Eusebeia" <eusebeia@optusnet.com.au> Cc: <old-english@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 12:38 PM Subject: Re: [OEL] Crumpler Bond (page two) Hi, Eusebia --- Thank you for the transcription (and translation of the Latin portion) of page two of Edith Crumpler's bond, page 2. I have posted this on her page on our website: http://lordoflucies.com/tng/getperson.php?personID=I0889&tree=Walsh and the link directly to the document itself (and transcription/translation) is: http://lordoflucies.com/tng/showmedia.php?mediaID=717 I haven't been able to figure out how to do subscripts and superscripts using the software I have that handles the family history website. I hope that what I've posted still makes sense. If there's a better way of doing this, avoiding sub/super scripts, please let me know and I will make the changes straight away. If there are any corrections, amendments, changes, etc., please let me know and I will handle ASAP. Thank you again for your fantastic assistance with this! Kind regards, Craig Craig W Walsh Lucies Farm Ltd * Whitecroft * Colletts Green * Worcester WR2 4RY ***************************************************************** t 01905 830 380 m 07833 433 871 In the United States: 888-880-1531 See our online photo gallery at www.bark.ch Stock imagery available at www.hmdp.net ***************************************************************** From: Eusebeia [mailto:eusebeia@optusnet.com.au] Sent: 28 February 2009 06:22 To: Craig Walsh Subject: Crumpler Bond (page two) 1] Nov[er]int univ[er]s]is] p[er] p[re]sentes nos Joh[ann]em Crumpler de Winterborne Know all men by these presents, that we John Crumpler of Winterbourne 2] Kingston p[ar]o[chi]e de Beere R[egis] in Com[itatu] Dorset' yeoman Kingston in the parish of Beer Regis in the county of Dorset, yeoman, 3] et Nathanielo Reade de Dorchester in Com[itatu] pred' yeoman and Nathaniel Reade of Dorchester in the aforesaid county, yeoman, 4] teneri et firm[it]er obligari ven[erabi]li Edmundo Mason sacre theol[ogie] are held and firmly bound unto the Venerable Edmund Mason, Doctor of Sacred 5] d[o]c[t]ori ecclesiæ Cath[edralis] Saru[m] decano in quadraginta libris bone Theology, Dean of the Cathedral Church of Sarum, in forty pounds of good 6] et leg[a]lis monete Anglie solvend[is] eid[em] d[omi]no decano aut suo and lawful money of England to be paid to the same Lord Dean or to his 7] cert[o] attor[nato] exec[utoribus] ad[ministratori]bus Success[oribus] sive assignat[is] suis ad qua[m] certain attorney, executors, administrators, successors or assigns 8] quide[m] soluc[ionem] bene et fidel[ite]r faciend[um] obligamus for well and faithfully making which payment, we bind ourselves 9] nos et utru[m]q[ue] n[ost]rum p[er] se pro toto et in solid[o] hered[es] exec[utores] and each of us by himself for the whole and in total, our heirs, executors 10] et ad[minstrato]res n[ost]ros firm[ite]r p[er] p[re]sentes sigillis n[ost]ris sigillata[um] and administrators, firmly by these presents. Sealed with our seals 11] dat[um] 7o die Novembris An[n]o regni D[omi]ni n[ost]ri given on the 7th day of November in the ninth year of the reign of our Lord 12] Caroli Dei gra[cia] Angl[ie] Scotie Fran[cie] et Hib[er]nie R[egis] fidei Charles by the grace of God, of England, Scotland, France and Ireland, 13] defen[soris] & c[etera] nono An[n]oq[ue] D[omi]ni 1633o King, Defender et cetera, and in the year of our Lord, 1633. 1] The Condic[i]on is such that if the above bounden John Crum= 2] pler the naturall & lawfull sonne & ad[ministrat]or of all & sing[u]l[a]r the 3] good[es], Chattells & Creditts of Edith Crumpler late of Winterborne 4] Kingston in the p[ar]sih of Beere R[egi]s in the county of Dorset & peculiar 5] Jurisdic[i]on of m[aste]r Deane of Saru[m], deceassed 6] doe well & truly administer the good[es] Chattells & Credit[es] of 7] the said deceased, that is to say in payinge her debt[es] (if any be 8] due) sor far forth as the same good[es] Chattells & Creditt[es] 9] will thereunto extend & the lawe charge him Alsoe doe make 10] & exhibite or cause to be made & exhibited into the registry of 11] m[aste]r deane of Saru[m] a true & p[er]fect Inventary of all such good[es] 12] as the said deceassed dyed possessed of all or before the first 13] day of December next moreov[er] doe all tymes hereafter 14] save defend & keepe harmelese the s[ai]d m[aste]r Deane & all oth[e]rs his 15] officers for grantinge the said ad[ministrati]on & for all oth[e]r causes that 16] may thereby ensue Lastly doe cause & give upp in writinge 17] a true & p[er]fect accompt of & upon his said ad[ministrati]on when he 18] shall thereunto be lawfull--1 required And thereupon doe 19] stand to abide & p[er]forme such order finall end & determinac[i]on 20] concerninge the residue of the said good[es] as by the said m[aste]r 21] Deane his officiall or Surrogate for the tyme beinge shall 22] be limitted & appoy[n]ted Then this obligac[i]on to be voyd & c[etera] 23] Signat[um] sigillata[um] et deliberat[um]2 24] ad usu[m] d[i]c[t]i D[omi]ni Decani Saru[m]3 25] in p[re]sentia Hen: Coles Rob[er]te Cox Nathaniel Reade4 Privacy and Confidentiality Notice This is strictly confidential and intended solely for the person or organisation to whom it is addressed. It may contain privileged and confidential information and if you are not an intended recipient, you must not copy, distribute or take any action in reliance on it. If you have received this message in error, please notify us as soon as possible and delete it and any attached files from your system. ==================================== WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Suits me Martyn. Let me know which I should be doing. Liz -----Original Message----- From: old-english-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:old-english-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of mjcl Sent: Saturday, 28 February 2009 10:12 AM To: Craig Walsh Cc: old-english@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [OEL] The Crumpler Wills Hi Craig, Im more than happy to assist again. List, I will post my efforts on the list this time. To avoid duplication of effort how do you feel about us each selecting a different document and then posting on the list for checking / interest? Liz Agar, I know we have collaborated previously, how do you feel? All the best, Martyn 2009/2/27 Craig Walsh <craig@hmdp.com> > I'm back again. > > My wife's 6th cousin has even more Crumpler documents, and I would > appreciate help with their transcription (and, in the case of the Latin > sections, translation). > > I have assembled the various .jpg images into a single Adobe Acrobat Reader > (PDF) file, and it can be downloaded from: > > http://www.crumpler-family.com/Crumpler2.pdf > > The file is 16.28 MB in size, and contains 19 pages. Some of these are > only snippets, or largely blank. Some are loaded with text. > > As before, there is no rush on any of this. And I am happy to pay for > professional services, or to reciprocate the courtesy in any way that I can. > > I hope y'all will help me to fill in still more holes in the past history > of the Crumpler family. If you have any questions, or if I can be of > assistance in any way, please don't hesitate to contact me. > > Thanks again for your help. > > Kind regards, > > Craig > > Craig W Walsh > Lucies Farm Ltd * Whitecroft * Colletts Green * Worcester WR2 4RY > ***************************************************************** > t 01905 830 380 m 07833 433 871 > In the United States: 888-880-1531 > See our online photo gallery at www.bark.ch > Stock imagery available at www.hmdp.net > ***************************************************************** > > > ________________________________ > Privacy and Confidentiality Notice > This is strictly confidential and intended solely for the person or > organisation to whom it is addressed. It may contain privileged and > confidential information and if you are not an intended recipient, you must > not copy, distribute or take any action in reliance on it. If you have > received this message in error, please notify us as soon as possible and > delete it and any attached files from your system. > > > ==================================== > WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/<http://homepages.rootsweb.com/%7Eoel/> > ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ==================================== WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi, Martyn --- Thank you! I've posted the document and your transcription at: http://www.lordoflucies.com/tng/showmedia.php?mediaID=721&medialinkID=1462 I confess to being at a loss as to who this Mary might be. She died in 1595, and her will indicates her husband was William and her son was Thomas. "Our" William --- with the 1614 will y'all so kindly helped me translate last week --- was married, at least at the time of his death, to Edith: http://www.lordoflucies.com/tng/getperson.php?personID=I0840&tree=Walsh And Edith's "lawful and natural son" was John, born (we believe) between 1590 and 1610. So if Edith was married to "our" William in this period, Mary couldn't have been married to him (her death was 1595). William's father, Thomas, had other children who's first names we don't know: http://www.lordoflucies.com/tng/getperson.php?personID=I0888&tree=Walsh Perhaps another William? Seems strange and unlikely. A project for the near future is to try to find the parish records for this period, if they still exist, and try to decipher how these people connected to one another. Please let me know if you have corrections, changes, etc., to the transcription now posted on the website. Yes, this is a great list with incredibly helpful folks. Thanks again. Kind regards, Craig Craig W Walsh Lucies Farm Ltd * Whitecroft * Colletts Green * Worcester WR2 4RY ***************************************************************** t 01905 830 380 m 07833 433 871 In the United States: 888-880-1531 See our online photo gallery at www.bark.ch Stock imagery available at www.hmdp.net ***************************************************************** From: mjcl [mailto:mjcl111@googlemail.com] Sent: 28 February 2009 15:37 To: Craig Walsh Subject: Re: [OEL] The Crumpler Wills Hi Craig, I have attached my first attempt ..... Mary Crumplehere's will of July 1595. You probably saw my comments to Liz Agar. So she should be posting her own efforts as I suggested. I'm not going to bulldoze through this one and will do alternate documents as I suggested to her. I would ask that you post my effort for all to see as you did Eusebeia's. That way other learn and I get my errors corrected!!. By now you have found out what a great bunch are on this list! And I'm sure that Judith Werner, who looks after the list. will be over the moon as this was the objective of the list when set up! All the best, Martyn Privacy and Confidentiality Notice This is strictly confidential and intended solely for the person or organisation to whom it is addressed. It may contain privileged and confidential information and if you are not an intended recipient, you must not copy, distribute or take any action in reliance on it. If you have received this message in error, please notify us as soon as possible and delete it and any attached files from your system.

Liz, I've got to do some decorating during the day today ! Would suggest, so that youre not waiting for me to say something, that you do the odd numbered ones 1, 3 etc and I'll do the even ones 2, 4 etc. Excluding the all Latin ones which Matt has kindly volunteered himself for! I'll be back later on this evening! All the best, Martyn 2009/2/28 Elizabeth Agar <emagar@hotkey.net.au> > Suits me Martyn. Let me know which I should be doing. > > Liz > > -----Original Message----- > From: old-english-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:old-english-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of mjcl > Sent: Saturday, 28 February 2009 10:12 AM > To: Craig Walsh > Cc: old-english@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [OEL] The Crumpler Wills > > Hi Craig, > > Im more than happy to assist again. > > List, > > I will post my efforts on the list this time. > To avoid duplication of effort how do you feel about us each selecting a > different document and then posting on the list for checking / interest? > > Liz Agar, > > I know we have collaborated previously, how do you feel? > > All the best, > > Martyn > > > > 2009/2/27 Craig Walsh <craig@hmdp.com> > > > I'm back again. > > > > My wife's 6th cousin has even more Crumpler documents, and I would > > appreciate help with their transcription (and, in the case of the Latin > > sections, translation). > > > > I have assembled the various .jpg images into a single Adobe Acrobat > Reader > > (PDF) file, and it can be downloaded from: > > > > http://www.crumpler-family.com/Crumpler2.pdf > > > > The file is 16.28 MB in size, and contains 19 pages. Some of these are > > only snippets, or largely blank. Some are loaded with text. > > > > As before, there is no rush on any of this. And I am happy to pay for > > professional services, or to reciprocate the courtesy in any way that I > can. > > > > I hope y'all will help me to fill in still more holes in the past history > > of the Crumpler family. If you have any questions, or if I can be of > > assistance in any way, please don't hesitate to contact me. > > > > Thanks again for your help. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Craig > > > > Craig W Walsh > > Lucies Farm Ltd * Whitecroft * Colletts Green * Worcester WR2 4RY > > ***************************************************************** > > t 01905 830 380 m 07833 433 871 > > In the United States: 888-880-1531 > > See our online photo gallery at www.bark.ch > > Stock imagery available at www.hmdp.net > > ***************************************************************** > > > > > > ________________________________ > > Privacy and Confidentiality Notice > > This is strictly confidential and intended solely for the person or > > organisation to whom it is addressed. It may contain privileged and > > confidential information and if you are not an intended recipient, you > must > > not copy, distribute or take any action in reliance on it. If you have > > received this message in error, please notify us as soon as possible and > > delete it and any attached files from your system. > > > > > > ==================================== > > WEB PAGE: > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/<http://homepages.rootsweb.com/%7Eoel/> > <http://homepages.rootsweb.com/%7Eoel/> > > ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ==================================== > WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/<http://homepages.rootsweb.com/%7Eoel/> > ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >

I'll help with translating some of the Latin bits. Matt

Hi, Polly --- Yes, I can easily enter the codes in brackets. Thanks for telling me how to do this. I know how to do the obvious (bold, italics, underline, strike-through, etc.) but couldn't find the code for superscript and subscript. I will go now and change the document on the site. Thanks for letting me know! Kind regards, Craig Craig W Walsh Lucies Farm Ltd * Whitecroft * Colletts Green * Worcester WR2 4RY ***************************************************************** t 01905 830 380 m 07833 433 871 In the United States: 888-880-1531 See our online photo gallery at www.bark.ch Stock imagery available at www.hmdp.net ***************************************************************** Privacy and Confidentiality Notice This is strictly confidential and intended solely for the person or organisation to whom it is addressed. It may contain privileged and confidential information and if you are not an intended recipient, you must not copy, distribute or take any action in reliance on it. If you have received this message in error, please notify us as soon as possible and delete it and any attached files from your system.

Hi, Eusebia --- My goof. I put these two pages on what I now think is the wrong Edith. They should have been attached to Edith Crumpler (married name -- maiden name as yet unknown). We knew from other sources that she died in 1632/33, and she had a son named John. She is much more likely to the be the "correct" Edith. I have, therefore, moved the two documents from the other Edith to this Edith. The page for the "correct" Edith is: http://lordoflucies.com/tng/getperson.php?personID=I0835&tree=Walsh The direct document links, provided earlier, still work. I have just un-linked the documents from one Edith, and attached them to the other. Sorry for my mistake. Kind regards, Craig Craig W Walsh Lucies Farm Ltd * Whitecroft * Colletts Green * Worcester WR2 4RY ***************************************************************** t 01905 830 380 m 07833 433 871 In the United States: 888-880-1531 See our online photo gallery at www.bark.ch Stock imagery available at www.hmdp.net ***************************************************************** Privacy and Confidentiality Notice This is strictly confidential and intended solely for the person or organisation to whom it is addressed. It may contain privileged and confidential information and if you are not an intended recipient, you must not copy, distribute or take any action in reliance on it. If you have received this message in error, please notify us as soon as possible and delete it and any attached files from your system.

Hi, Eusebia --- Thank you for the transcription (and translation of the Latin portion) of page two of Edith Crumpler's bond, page 2. I have posted this on her page on our website: http://lordoflucies.com/tng/getperson.php?personID=I0889&tree=Walsh and the link directly to the document itself (and transcription/translation) is: http://lordoflucies.com/tng/showmedia.php?mediaID=717 I haven't been able to figure out how to do subscripts and superscripts using the software I have that handles the family history website. I hope that what I've posted still makes sense. If there's a better way of doing this, avoiding sub/super scripts, please let me know and I will make the changes straight away. If there are any corrections, amendments, changes, etc., please let me know and I will handle ASAP. Thank you again for your fantastic assistance with this! Kind regards, Craig Craig W Walsh Lucies Farm Ltd * Whitecroft * Colletts Green * Worcester WR2 4RY ***************************************************************** t 01905 830 380 m 07833 433 871 In the United States: 888-880-1531 See our online photo gallery at www.bark.ch Stock imagery available at www.hmdp.net ***************************************************************** From: Eusebeia [mailto:eusebeia@optusnet.com.au] Sent: 28 February 2009 06:22 To: Craig Walsh Subject: Crumpler Bond (page two) 1] Nov[er]int univ[er]s]is] p[er] p[re]sentes nos Joh[ann]em Crumpler de Winterborne Know all men by these presents, that we John Crumpler of Winterbourne 2] Kingston p[ar]o[chi]e de Beere R[egis] in Com[itatu] Dorset' yeoman Kingston in the parish of Beer Regis in the county of Dorset, yeoman, 3] et Nathanielo Reade de Dorchester in Com[itatu] pred' yeoman and Nathaniel Reade of Dorchester in the aforesaid county, yeoman, 4] teneri et firm[it]er obligari ven[erabi]li Edmundo Mason sacre theol[ogie] are held and firmly bound unto the Venerable Edmund Mason, Doctor of Sacred 5] d[o]c[t]ori ecclesiæ Cath[edralis] Saru[m] decano in quadraginta libris bone Theology, Dean of the Cathedral Church of Sarum, in forty pounds of good 6] et leg[a]lis monete Anglie solvend[is] eid[em] d[omi]no decano aut suo and lawful money of England to be paid to the same Lord Dean or to his 7] cert[o] attor[nato] exec[utoribus] ad[ministratori]bus Success[oribus] sive assignat[is] suis ad qua[m] certain attorney, executors, administrators, successors or assigns 8] quide[m] soluc[ionem] bene et fidel[ite]r faciend[um] obligamus for well and faithfully making which payment, we bind ourselves 9] nos et utru[m]q[ue] n[ost]rum p[er] se pro toto et in solid[o] hered[es] exec[utores] and each of us by himself for the whole and in total, our heirs, executors 10] et ad[minstrato]res n[ost]ros firm[ite]r p[er] p[re]sentes sigillis n[ost]ris sigillata[um] and administrators, firmly by these presents. Sealed with our seals 11] dat[um] 7o die Novembris An[n]o regni D[omi]ni n[ost]ri given on the 7th day of November in the ninth year of the reign of our Lord 12] Caroli Dei gra[cia] Angl[ie] Scotie Fran[cie] et Hib[er]nie R[egis] fidei Charles by the grace of God, of England, Scotland, France and Ireland, 13] defen[soris] & c[etera] nono An[n]oq[ue] D[omi]ni 1633o King, Defender et cetera, and in the year of our Lord, 1633. 1] The Condic[i]on is such that if the above bounden John Crum= 2] pler the naturall & lawfull sonne & ad[ministrat]or of all & sing[u]l[a]r the 3] good[es], Chattells & Creditts of Edith Crumpler late of Winterborne 4] Kingston in the p[ar]sih of Beere R[egi]s in the county of Dorset & peculiar 5] Jurisdic[i]on of m[aste]r Deane of Saru[m], deceassed 6] doe well & truly administer the good[es] Chattells & Credit[es] of 7] the said deceased, that is to say in payinge her debt[es] (if any be 8] due) sor far forth as the same good[es] Chattells & Creditt[es] 9] will thereunto extend & the lawe charge him Alsoe doe make 10] & exhibite or cause to be made & exhibited into the registry of 11] m[aste]r deane of Saru[m] a true & p[er]fect Inventary of all such good[es] 12] as the said deceassed dyed possessed of all or before the first 13] day of December next moreov[er] doe all tymes hereafter 14] save defend & keepe harmelese the s[ai]d m[aste]r Deane & all oth[e]rs his 15] officers for grantinge the said ad[ministrati]on & for all oth[e]r causes that 16] may thereby ensue Lastly doe cause & give upp in writinge 17] a true & p[er]fect accompt of & upon his said ad[ministrati]on when he 18] shall thereunto be lawfull--1 required And thereupon doe 19] stand to abide & p[er]forme such order finall end & determinac[i]on 20] concerninge the residue of the said good[es] as by the said m[aste]r 21] Deane his officiall or Surrogate for the tyme beinge shall 22] be limitted & appoy[n]ted Then this obligac[i]on to be voyd & c[etera] 23] Signat[um] sigillata[um] et deliberat[um]2 24] ad usu[m] d[i]c[t]i D[omi]ni Decani Saru[m]3 25] in p[re]sentia Hen: Coles Rob[er]te Cox Nathaniel Reade4 Privacy and Confidentiality Notice This is strictly confidential and intended solely for the person or organisation to whom it is addressed. It may contain privileged and confidential information and if you are not an intended recipient, you must not copy, distribute or take any action in reliance on it. If you have received this message in error, please notify us as soon as possible and delete it and any attached files from your system.

Hi, Eusebeia --- Thank you for the quick reply. I have posted page 1 of Edith Crumpler on her page on our website. Her page is: http://lordoflucies.com/tng/getperson.php?personID=I0889&tree=Walsh and the direct link to your transcription and translation is: http://lordoflucies.com/tng/showmedia.php?mediaID=716 If you have any corrections, changes, etc., please let me know and I will make them asap. Would you like me to include your name on the website as the person who transcribed and translated this? It would be my pleasure to do so? Thanks again! Kind regards, Craig Craig W Walsh Lucies Farm Ltd * Whitecroft * Colletts Green * Worcester WR2 4RY ***************************************************************** t 01905 830 380 m 07833 433 871 In the United States: 888-880-1531 See our online photo gallery at www.bark.ch Stock imagery available at www.hmdp.net ***************************************************************** From: Eusebeia [mailto:eusebeia@optusnet.com.au] Sent: 28 February 2009 02:03 To: Craig Walsh Subject: Re: The Crumpler Wills Crumpler Editha de Win= terborne Kingston 1] Septimo die mens[is] Novembris An[n]o On the Seventh day of November in the year 2] D[om]ini 1633 Concessa fuit Administratio of our Lord 1633, the administration 3] bonoru[m] & c[etera] Edithæ Crumpler Du[m] vixit de of the goods et cetera of Edith Crumpler, deceased, while she lived 4] Winterborne Kingston in Com[itatu] Dorset' iur[isdictio]nis of the parish of Winterbourne in the county of Dorset and the peculiar 5] pecul[iaris] Deca[na]l[is] Sarum Defunct[e] Joh[an]ni Crumpler jurisdiction of the Dean of Sarum, was granted to John Crumpler 6] filio n[atu]rali et l[egi]timo d[i]c[t]e defunct[e] in debita the natural and lawful son of the said deceased, who was sworn in due 7] Juris forma Jurat[o] de fidel[ite]r administrand[o] form of law to faithfully administer 8] Necnon de exhibend[o] In[venta]riu[m] & c[etera] citra primu[m] and also to exhibit an inventory et cetera before the first 9] Diem Decembris prox[imum] Necnon de redden[do] day of December next and also to render 10] Comp[otu]m & [cetera] Salvo iure Cuiuscu[m]q[ue]./ and account et cetera, saving the right of whomsoever. Privacy and Confidentiality Notice This is strictly confidential and intended solely for the person or organisation to whom it is addressed. It may contain privileged and confidential information and if you are not an intended recipient, you must not copy, distribute or take any action in reliance on it. If you have received this message in error, please notify us as soon as possible and delete it and any attached files from your system.

Hi Craig, Im more than happy to assist again. List, I will post my efforts on the list this time. To avoid duplication of effort how do you feel about us each selecting a different document and then posting on the list for checking / interest? Liz Agar, I know we have collaborated previously, how do you feel? All the best, Martyn 2009/2/27 Craig Walsh <craig@hmdp.com> > I'm back again. > > My wife's 6th cousin has even more Crumpler documents, and I would > appreciate help with their transcription (and, in the case of the Latin > sections, translation). > > I have assembled the various .jpg images into a single Adobe Acrobat Reader > (PDF) file, and it can be downloaded from: > > http://www.crumpler-family.com/Crumpler2.pdf > > The file is 16.28 MB in size, and contains 19 pages. Some of these are > only snippets, or largely blank. Some are loaded with text. > > As before, there is no rush on any of this. And I am happy to pay for > professional services, or to reciprocate the courtesy in any way that I can. > > I hope y'all will help me to fill in still more holes in the past history > of the Crumpler family. If you have any questions, or if I can be of > assistance in any way, please don't hesitate to contact me. > > Thanks again for your help. > > Kind regards, > > Craig > > Craig W Walsh > Lucies Farm Ltd * Whitecroft * Colletts Green * Worcester WR2 4RY > ***************************************************************** > t 01905 830 380 m 07833 433 871 > In the United States: 888-880-1531 > See our online photo gallery at www.bark.ch > Stock imagery available at www.hmdp.net > ***************************************************************** > > > ________________________________ > Privacy and Confidentiality Notice > This is strictly confidential and intended solely for the person or > organisation to whom it is addressed. It may contain privileged and > confidential information and if you are not an intended recipient, you must > not copy, distribute or take any action in reliance on it. If you have > received this message in error, please notify us as soon as possible and > delete it and any attached files from your system. > > > ==================================== > WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/<http://homepages.rootsweb.com/%7Eoel/> > ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi, Martyn --- Thank you for the super-fast reply. I appreciate it. If the transcriptions/translations are sent to me (via the list, or directly to craig@hmdp.com<mailto:craig@hmdp.com> ), I will happily post the page with its transcription on our website --- and provide the URL link here. I am happy to make corrections, changes, etc., as and when folks let me know. The transcription will be just above the image of the page itself, as I've done with the previous Crumpler wills. They are at www.lordoflucies.com<http://www.lordoflucies.com>. I didn't know that Marjorie's distant relative had these all helpfully located and saved. I am very interested to see if this unravels any of the mysteries of the early Crumpler family, or only raises new mysteries. Kind regards, Craig Craig W Walsh Lucies Farm Ltd * Whitecroft * Colletts Green * Worcester WR2 4RY ***************************************************************** t 01905 830 380 m 07833 433 871 In the United States: 888-880-1531 See our online photo gallery at www.bark.ch Stock imagery available at www.hmdp.net ***************************************************************** ________________________________ Privacy and Confidentiality Notice This is strictly confidential and intended solely for the person or organisation to whom it is addressed. It may contain privileged and confidential information and if you are not an intended recipient, you must not copy, distribute or take any action in reliance on it. If you have received this message in error, please notify us as soon as possible and delete it and any attached files from your system.

I'm back again. My wife's 6th cousin has even more Crumpler documents, and I would appreciate help with their transcription (and, in the case of the Latin sections, translation). I have assembled the various .jpg images into a single Adobe Acrobat Reader (PDF) file, and it can be downloaded from: http://www.crumpler-family.com/Crumpler2.pdf The file is 16.28 MB in size, and contains 19 pages. Some of these are only snippets, or largely blank. Some are loaded with text. As before, there is no rush on any of this. And I am happy to pay for professional services, or to reciprocate the courtesy in any way that I can. I hope y'all will help me to fill in still more holes in the past history of the Crumpler family. If you have any questions, or if I can be of assistance in any way, please don't hesitate to contact me. Thanks again for your help. Kind regards, Craig Craig W Walsh Lucies Farm Ltd * Whitecroft * Colletts Green * Worcester WR2 4RY ***************************************************************** t 01905 830 380 m 07833 433 871 In the United States: 888-880-1531 See our online photo gallery at www.bark.ch Stock imagery available at www.hmdp.net ***************************************************************** ________________________________ Privacy and Confidentiality Notice This is strictly confidential and intended solely for the person or organisation to whom it is addressed. It may contain privileged and confidential information and if you are not an intended recipient, you must not copy, distribute or take any action in reliance on it. If you have received this message in error, please notify us as soon as possible and delete it and any attached files from your system.

Hello Craig Just to say that names and other words were not standardised for another 200 or so years after your wills so don't worry about the spellings. The sound of the words is the important thing and that can vary according to the country and part of the country where the people concerned lived. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig Walsh" <craig@hmdp.com> To: <old-english@rootsweb.com> Cc: "Marjorie Walsh" <marjorie@hmdp.com>; "Cathy Bushby" <cathy@bushby.info>; "Jeannie Seyffer" <hansseyffer@dodo.com.au>; <David@lists2.rootsweb.com>; "Ann Heward" <heward@iinet.net.au>; "Roger Wilson" <roger.f.wilson@btinternet.com>; "Michael" <davidmichael_uk@yahoo.co.uk> Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 8:56 AM Subject: [OEL] The Crumpler Wills >I am speechless! The assistance you've all provided has been fantastic. > > I've now posted the two wills on the two individuals' pages on the family > website: > > Richard Crumplehere: > > http://lordoflucies.com/tng/getperson.php?personID=I1300&tree=Walsh > > William Crumpelher: > > http://lordoflucies.com/tng/getperson.php?personID=I0840&tree=Walsh > > The direct link to the "album" I set up for William's will is: > > http://lordoflucies.com/tng/showalbum.php?albumID=7 > > I confess a certain amount of confusion as to the "correct" (if there is > such a thing) spelling of the surname. The name ultimately became > Crumpler, and the spelling standardised. But on these documents the > spelling does not appear to be as consistent. > > Was there a "correct" spelling of the surname in those pre-computer days, > or was a certain amount of variation inevitable --- and acceptable? > > Or have I misinterpreted the spelling of the surnames? > > In trying to figure out all of the relationships of the players, I think > these are the connections: > > William Crumpler (will dated 1614) > = = = = = = = = = = > Wife: Edith > Sons: John, Richard > Daughter: Christian Joyleife (spelling?) > Grandchildren: William Jeoyleife (sp?), George Gould, Prudence Crumpler, > Margarett Fryers > > Richard Crumpler (will dated 1594) > = = = = = = = = = = > Wife: Mary > Son: Thomas > > On William's page on the family website, researched by others, we have his > children shown as Jane, "Boy" Crumpler, Richard, Prudence, William, and > John. It would seem from the will that John and Richard are correct --- > but that Prudence is not William's daughter --- but his grand-daughter. > She must be the son of John or Richard. But she's not mentioned in > Richard's will --- so does that mean John is her father? She died in > 1619. > > That makes me wonder if the will we have for Richard is for William's son > Richard. The will shows that Richard died, presumably, in 1594. So > wouldn't the Richard mentioned in a 1614 will have been alive in 1614 --- > therefore another, second Richard? > > I've used the consolidated document Liz kindly sent me as my guide, > although I note that there are other comments, etc., on the list itself. > I've posted the consolidated document to start, and will now print off the > various messages and see if there are other things that should be > mentioned/incorporated. Suggestions always welcome. > > I would be delighted to give y'all "credit" for all of your efforts by > mentioning you on our website, if you'd like that. Wanted to check with > you first --- and also to see how you'd like your names shown, and whether > you'd like your e-mail addresses included, or any other information. > > Again, thank you for all of your help. I hope you won't mind if I come > back with any questions that I might have as I go through these documents > and the transcriptions. > > Kind regards, > > Craig > > > Craig W. Walsh > Lucies Farm Ltd. * Colletts Green * Worcester * WR2 4RY > ******************************************************* > 01905-830-380 (In USA 888-880-1531) 07833 433 871 > ******************************************************* > > ________________________________ > Privacy and Confidentiality Notice > This is strictly confidential and intended solely for the person or > organisation to whom it is addressed. It may contain privileged and > confidential information and if you are not an intended recipient, you > must not copy, distribute or take any action in reliance on it. If you > have received this message in error, please notify us as soon as possible > and delete it and any attached files from your system. > > > ==================================== > WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1971 - Release Date: 02/25/09 06:40:00

I am speechless! The assistance you've all provided has been fantastic. I've now posted the two wills on the two individuals' pages on the family website: Richard Crumplehere: http://lordoflucies.com/tng/getperson.php?personID=I1300&tree=Walsh William Crumpelher: http://lordoflucies.com/tng/getperson.php?personID=I0840&tree=Walsh The direct link to the "album" I set up for William's will is: http://lordoflucies.com/tng/showalbum.php?albumID=7 I confess a certain amount of confusion as to the "correct" (if there is such a thing) spelling of the surname. The name ultimately became Crumpler, and the spelling standardised. But on these documents the spelling does not appear to be as consistent. Was there a "correct" spelling of the surname in those pre-computer days, or was a certain amount of variation inevitable --- and acceptable? Or have I misinterpreted the spelling of the surnames? In trying to figure out all of the relationships of the players, I think these are the connections: William Crumpler (will dated 1614) = = = = = = = = = = Wife: Edith Sons: John, Richard Daughter: Christian Joyleife (spelling?) Grandchildren: William Jeoyleife (sp?), George Gould, Prudence Crumpler, Margarett Fryers Richard Crumpler (will dated 1594) = = = = = = = = = = Wife: Mary Son: Thomas On William's page on the family website, researched by others, we have his children shown as Jane, "Boy" Crumpler, Richard, Prudence, William, and John. It would seem from the will that John and Richard are correct --- but that Prudence is not William's daughter --- but his grand-daughter. She must be the son of John or Richard. But she's not mentioned in Richard's will --- so does that mean John is her father? She died in 1619. That makes me wonder if the will we have for Richard is for William's son Richard. The will shows that Richard died, presumably, in 1594. So wouldn't the Richard mentioned in a 1614 will have been alive in 1614 --- therefore another, second Richard? I've used the consolidated document Liz kindly sent me as my guide, although I note that there are other comments, etc., on the list itself. I've posted the consolidated document to start, and will now print off the various messages and see if there are other things that should be mentioned/incorporated. Suggestions always welcome. I would be delighted to give y'all "credit" for all of your efforts by mentioning you on our website, if you'd like that. Wanted to check with you first --- and also to see how you'd like your names shown, and whether you'd like your e-mail addresses included, or any other information. Again, thank you for all of your help. I hope you won't mind if I come back with any questions that I might have as I go through these documents and the transcriptions. Kind regards, Craig Craig W. Walsh Lucies Farm Ltd. * Colletts Green * Worcester * WR2 4RY ******************************************************* 01905-830-380 (In USA 888-880-1531) 07833 433 871 ******************************************************* ________________________________ Privacy and Confidentiality Notice This is strictly confidential and intended solely for the person or organisation to whom it is addressed. It may contain privileged and confidential information and if you are not an intended recipient, you must not copy, distribute or take any action in reliance on it. If you have received this message in error, please notify us as soon as possible and delete it and any attached files from your system.

Hello Alejandro, The document you refer to is the Assignment dated 6 June 1712 between Thomas Hanmer and Edward Higgens (1) and Daniell Peirceson (2), part of the Mostyn-Owen collection at Shrewsbury Archives, ref. 3890/2/1/110-11? The A2A catalogue contains a summary of its contents in which the recital of the 1702 Articles of Agreement appears as: "By articles of agreement of 13 April 1702 Edward Thornes gent, Jane Williams and Catherine Hanmer, widow, sister of Edward Thornes (1) and children of Edward Thornes the assignee and John Thornes and Mary Thornes sister of the said Edward Thornes (2) and other children of Edward Thornes the assignee touching the division of the personal estate of Edward Thornes of Kinaston, on consideration that John Thornes and Mary Thornes should sue forth letters of administration of the goods of Edw. Thornes decd. for their own use, and Edward Thornes, Jane Williams and Catherine Hanmer released to John and Mary Thornes all their title in the goods of Edward Thornes the father." So in answer to query (a), it seems the archivist who calendared the document read 'sister' as singular, so that it and 'widdow' applied to Catherine Hanmer alone. Could the apparent -s on the end of 'widdow' have been just a flourish? On (b), I think the explanation is that the parties to the Articles of Agreement have been described in an unusual and misleading way. I think "children of the said Edwd. Thornes the Assignee" and "other children of the said Edwd. Thornes the Assignee" are intended to be descriptions of the previously named parties, not the start of the next following set of parties. In other words Edward Thornes gent, Jane Williams and Catherine Hanmer are the parties of the one part and also children of Edward Thornes the assignee, while John and Mary Thornes are the parties of the second part and also other children of Edward Thornes the assignee. So the A2A calendar has placed its "(1)" and "(2)" in the wrong place. They ought each to be shifted a few words to the right, so that they come after "children of the said Edward Thorne the Assignee", making it: "By articles of agreement of 13 April 1702 Edward Thornes gent, Jane Williams and Catherine Hanmer, widow, sister of Edward Thornes and children of Edward Thornes the assignee (1) and John Thornes and Mary Thornes sister of the said Edward Thornes and other children of Edward Thornes the assignee (2) ..." It was an understandable mistake - it is a conveyancing convention that all description of the parties comes *before* phrases like 'of the one part'. Matt Tompkins -----Original Message----- From: old-english-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:old-english-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of AMilb36287@aol.com Sent: 23 February 2009 23:21 To: OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [OEL] Widdows and Children A passage in an indenture of 1712 has a couple of things that intrigue me: "And whereas the said Edward Thornes departed this life intestate in or about the yeare of our Lord God One thousand seven hundred and one And whereas certaine Articles of Agreemt. beareing date the thirteenth day of Aprill seventeene hundred & two Edward Thornes gent Jane Williams & Catherine Hanmer widdows Sister of the said Edwd.Thornes of the one parte & Children of the said Edwd. Thornes the Asignee and John Thornes & Mary Thornes sister of the said Edwd. Thornes of the other parte & other Children of the said Edwd. Thornes the Asignee aforesaid touching the division of the personall Estate of Edward Thornes of Kinaston aforesaid..." The document could not have been redacted in a more confusing manner. There are two Edward Thornes, the one who died in 1701 and his grandson of the same name, also called the "asignee" because he was assigned a lease of the parcel of land in question in 1694. Edward (the "asignee"), John and Mary Thornes were siblings. Catherine Hanmer was neé Thornes, a sister of the older Edward. a) I suspect that Jane Williams was also née Thornes, and was another sister of the older Edward. The text where they are named clearly reads "widdows" - the final "s" is practically identical to the one in Williams in the same line. But then, why "Sister" in singular? A mistake? b) If the unspecified children of Edward Thornes the asignee appear as part the second party, why would they be mentioned again afterwards ("and other children of the said Edward Thornes the Asignee aforesaid")? A third party is not mentioned, perhaps the writer didn't realize he had already included the children earlier in the sentence? I can send a scan of this section if anybody wants to take a look. Any ideas would be appreciated. Thank you! Alejandro Milberg Boston, Mass. **************You're invited to Hollywood's biggest party: Get Oscars updates, red carpet pics and more at Moviefone. (http://movies.aol.com/oscars-academy-awards?ncid=emlcntusmovi00000001) ==================================== WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thank you, Matt for the Latin bits and for looking up goade. Thank you, Martyn for fixing up my many mistakes. I am correcting my Word document for Craig and will send same to him. Cheers, and many thanks again Liz snip