Can anyone help? I am working my way through some poor relief payments from 1800 and it's a bit of a scrawl but all very straightforward, just like loads of others, until I got to 'To 5 weeks Irish pay to Barker's wife, 8d a week' 3s 4d This is the first time I've come across the term 'Irish pay'. I tried Google but of course you get Irish pay rises, the Irish pay for this and that and the other etc ... The Overseers are regularly paying for to support the families of men in the Militia, so could Barker be in Ireland in the militia? Or is there some other meaning of 'Irish pay' that someone knows about. It's very clear on the page so I don't think it's a misreading. Lyn B

<<Those sums do seem more likely than the 100 s., 200 s. and 400 s. I suggested. I was having trouble picturing an x that could be mistaken for an e (whereas a c can be very similar), but having now taken the trouble to look at a few documents from the period I have come across a couple of cases where the x's do indeed look a little like modern e's. So I think you're probably right, Polly.>> Oh, I've just realised Ian has sent me an image of one of the numbers - Yes, definitely x's. Matt ==================================== WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ==================================== WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

<< xs (10 shillings), xxs (twenty shillings) and xxxxs (forty shillings).>> Those sums do seem more likely than the 100 s., 200 s. and 400 s. I suggested. I was having trouble picturing an x that could be mistaken for an e (whereas a c can be very similar), but having now taken the trouble to look at a few documents from the period I have come across a couple of cases where the x's do indeed look a little like modern e's. So I think you're probably right, Polly. Matt ==================================== WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I would like to thank everybody who assisted me with this, through the List and also off List. My conclusion is that these symbols that look like "e"s to me are "x"s and not "c"s. I should have described the swirl at the top of the curve. Without seeing them I can well understand them being considered "c"s (100). The legacies I mentioned in my first post are therefore "xs" (10 shillings) xxs (20 shillings) and xxxxs (40 shillings). Ian Bartlett

Hello Ian - and others on list! I have a 1634 will which also refers to "pounds of good and lawfull English money as well as a 1553 indenture paper using the same description - so assume that was commonly used.. The above will also mentions "twelve ponto* in money" ( twelve pence) so your latin abbreviation may be incorrect. (* looks like) I have struggled to decipher the handwriting in these old family documents - and been delighted to have them translated by trained archivists in Yorkshire - well worth it in comparison with exorbitant charges made by some county councils eg Nottingham for simply photo-copying documents in their archives or putting them on CD I have acquired a printed book with a number of latin and old english documents relating to my family, which has yet to be translated - hopefully will get the help of above trained archivists. Richard in Surrey -----Original Message----- From: old-english-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:old-english-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of Ian Bartlett Sent: 05 September 2009 13:09 To: OLD-ENGLISH@rootsweb.com Subject: [OEL] Deciphering 17th Cent Will I have transcribed a 1626 will written Unfortunately I can't post a facsimile and can only describe what I take to be secretary hand. Some of the legacies in it baffle me. One to a Church (if it were modern script) reads "bjs biijd" which If the "b" (and they look just like "b"s which are definite "b"s elsewhere in the Will) is a "v" and I am led to believe "i" and "j" especially on the end are the same it would read vis viiid ( 6 shillings 8 pence?). I may have solved that but I stand to be corrected. Other legacies which I assume are money appear to be a series of lower case "e" is fairly large with the curl below the surrounding script. For example the parish poor is left "es" , a servant is left "ees" and a grandchild is left "eeees". I thought of pound signs yet two other people are left "fowerscore pounds of lawfull money of England". Any ideas? Ian Bartlett ==================================== WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Oxfordshire FHS has a section of its website where it is collecting will (and related documents) transcripts, at http://wills.oxfordshirefhs.org.uk/ There are now 2,097 documents on-line, with about 24,200 name mentions. This is a project a Society member suggested, and has been involved with for a few years now. There has been a lot of enthusiasm to contribute documents to our site, and we are getting excited feedback from thoose discovering links to the documents. Many contributors submit a full transcription, but where they find that difficult our volunteer is willing to take the transcription on himself. It occured to me that maybe members of this list have, in their collections, transcribed wills with Oxfordshire relevance. If so, we'd be delighted to add them to the "library". Wendy Chairman, Oxfordshire FHS www.ofhs.org.uk

Hi Ian I would agree with what Matt has said in his reply. I've just uploaded a small extract from a will dated 1598 which may find helpful to compare with what is in your 1626 will. In this extract the first complete line gives the date and begins "vij th" (7th) and the "v" does look similar to a modern "b". However, the bottom line of the extract begins with the word "bodie", and in this case you can clearly see the difference between the "v" and an initial "b". You can find the extract at http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~scraton/misc/sample.jpg . Hope that helps Pauline ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ian Bartlett" <imbart@globalnet.co.uk> To: <OLD-ENGLISH@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, September 05, 2009 1:09 PM Subject: [OEL] Deciphering 17th Cent Will >I have transcribed a 1626 will written Unfortunately I can't post a > facsimile and can only describe what I take to be secretary hand. Some of > the legacies in it baffle me. One to a Church (if it were modern script) > reads "bjs biijd" which If the "b" (and they look just like "b"s which are > definite "b"s elsewhere in the Will) is a "v" and I am led to believe "i" > and "j" especially on the end are the same it would read vis viiid ( 6 > shillings 8 pence?). I may have solved that but I stand to be corrected. > Other legacies which I assume are money appear to be a series of lower > case > "e" is fairly large with the curl below the surrounding script. For > example > the parish poor is left "es" , a servant is left "ees" and a grandchild is > left "eeees". I thought of pound signs yet two other people are left > "fowerscore pounds of lawfull money of England". Any ideas? > > Ian Bartlett

Hi Ian I would *think* (it is difficult to be sure without sight of the original) that your legacies are indeed vjs viijd which is 6 shillings and eight pence; and xs (10 shillings), xxs (twenty shillings) and xxxxs (forty shillings). If you would like to send me a scan I can check for definite for you. Kind regards Polly ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ian Bartlett" <imbart@globalnet.co.uk> To: <OLD-ENGLISH@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, September 05, 2009 1:09 PM Subject: [OEL] Deciphering 17th Cent Will I have transcribed a 1626 will written Unfortunately I can't post a facsimile and can only describe what I take to be secretary hand. Some of the legacies in it baffle me. One to a Church (if it were modern script) reads "bjs biijd" which If the "b" (and they look just like "b"s which are definite "b"s elsewhere in the Will) is a "v" and I am led to believe "i" and "j" especially on the end are the same it would read vis viiid ( 6 shillings 8 pence?). I may have solved that but I stand to be corrected. Other legacies which I assume are money appear to be a series of lower case "e" is fairly large with the curl below the surrounding script. For example the parish poor is left "es" , a servant is left "ees" and a grandchild is left "eeees". I thought of pound signs yet two other people are left "fowerscore pounds of lawfull money of England". Any ideas? Ian Bartlett ==================================== WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

As you surmised, Ian, "bjs biijd" = vj s. viij d., ie 6s. 8d. (which is half a mark, or one third of a pound - a nice round figure commonly used in valuations and bequests). "es" = c s., ie 100 s. or £5 "ees" = cc s., ie 200 s. "eeees". = cccc s., ie 400 s. The testator must have been fairly wealthy, a rich yeoman at the very least. Matt Tompkins ________________________________________ From: old-english-bounces@rootsweb.com [old-english-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Ian Bartlett [imbart@globalnet.co.uk] Sent: 05 September 2009 13:09 To: OLD-ENGLISH@rootsweb.com Subject: [OEL] Deciphering 17th Cent Will I have transcribed a 1626 will written Unfortunately I can't post a facsimile and can only describe what I take to be secretary hand. Some of the legacies in it baffle me. One to a Church (if it were modern script) reads "bjs biijd" which If the "b" (and they look just like "b"s which are definite "b"s elsewhere in the Will) is a "v" and I am led to believe "i" and "j" especially on the end are the same it would read vis viiid ( 6 shillings 8 pence?). I may have solved that but I stand to be corrected. Other legacies which I assume are money appear to be a series of lower case "e" is fairly large with the curl below the surrounding script. For example the parish poor is left "es" , a servant is left "ees" and a grandchild is left "eeees". I thought of pound signs yet two other people are left "fowerscore pounds of lawfull money of England". Any ideas? Ian Bartlett ==================================== WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I have transcribed a 1626 will written Unfortunately I can't post a facsimile and can only describe what I take to be secretary hand. Some of the legacies in it baffle me. One to a Church (if it were modern script) reads "bjs biijd" which If the "b" (and they look just like "b"s which are definite "b"s elsewhere in the Will) is a "v" and I am led to believe "i" and "j" especially on the end are the same it would read vis viiid ( 6 shillings 8 pence?). I may have solved that but I stand to be corrected. Other legacies which I assume are money appear to be a series of lower case "e" is fairly large with the curl below the surrounding script. For example the parish poor is left "es" , a servant is left "ees" and a grandchild is left "eeees". I thought of pound signs yet two other people are left "fowerscore pounds of lawfull money of England". Any ideas? Ian Bartlett

Hi everyone - again I have found two more early manorial court records but fortunately in English this time. They are quite short and I have had a go at them but a few words are resisting my efforts. I'd love to be able to e-mail the jpeg of the original document, along with my attempts so far, to anyone who has any time to spare. Many thanks Barbara

Many many thanks to Eusebia and Matt for their very kind and excellent help in enabling me to discover some of the important concerns of the day in 1712 in my local area of study which I just couldn't have accessed without their generosity. Gratefully Barbara

Yes - I totally agree with you Roy and it was me that started the whole thing. Apologies. I have suggested before that we stopped it. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roy Cox" <roy.cox@btinternet.com> To: "Old English List" <OLD-ENGLISH@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 12:26 PM Subject: Re: [OEL] Racecourses and cathedrals > HEY! - > > I have never had the occasion to race to a Cathedral, so is it not about > time this "OFF SUBJECT" was put to sleep please, as it is making more work > for me that has nothing to do with Old English or Family History > > > Thanks in ADVANCE! > > Roy in the Sleepy South (WHAT?) > > -----Original Message----- > From: old-english-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:old-english-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of A Lee > Sent: 19 August 2009 11:21 > To: A Lee; VictorOly@aol.com; john.holden3@lineone.net; > OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [OEL] Racecourses and cathedrals > > Am I also right in thinking that anywhere that has a cathedral is, at > once, > given the status of city? > > Audrey > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "A Lee" <alee231@btinternet.com> > To: <VictorOly@aol.com>; <john.holden3@lineone.net>; > <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 11:02 AM > Subject: Re: [OEL] Racecourses and cathedrals > > >> Very late in the realms of cathedral creation though, don't you think? Is >> it possible that the race courses prompted the promotion to cathedral >> status? >> >> Audrey >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: <VictorOly@aol.com> >> To: <john.holden3@lineone.net>; <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 12:23 AM >> Subject: Re: [OEL] Racecourses and cathedrals >> >> >>> Kirkmanshulme, was though part of the domain lands of Manchester Parish >>> Church, after all Manchester did'nt become a Catherdral until about >>> 1840. >>> >>> >>> >>> Gay J Oliver, Stalybridge, Cheshire >>> gayandmike.co.uk >>> tamesidefamilyhistory.co.uk >>> ashtongrammar.co.uk >>> www.tamesidehistoryforum.org.uk >>> www.fhsc.org.uk/fhsc/dukinfield.htm >>> >>> >>> ==================================== >>> WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ >>> ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. >>> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >>> Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: - Release Date: <unknown> >>> >>> >> >> > > > > > > ==================================== > WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ==================================== > WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > -- > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: - Release Date: <unknown> > >

HEY! - I have never had the occasion to race to a Cathedral, so is it not about time this "OFF SUBJECT" was put to sleep please, as it is making more work for me that has nothing to do with Old English or Family History Thanks in ADVANCE! Roy in the Sleepy South (WHAT?) -----Original Message----- From: old-english-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:old-english-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of A Lee Sent: 19 August 2009 11:21 To: A Lee; VictorOly@aol.com; john.holden3@lineone.net; OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [OEL] Racecourses and cathedrals Am I also right in thinking that anywhere that has a cathedral is, at once, given the status of city? Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "A Lee" <alee231@btinternet.com> To: <VictorOly@aol.com>; <john.holden3@lineone.net>; <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 11:02 AM Subject: Re: [OEL] Racecourses and cathedrals > Very late in the realms of cathedral creation though, don't you think? Is > it possible that the race courses prompted the promotion to cathedral > status? > > Audrey > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <VictorOly@aol.com> > To: <john.holden3@lineone.net>; <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 12:23 AM > Subject: Re: [OEL] Racecourses and cathedrals > > >> Kirkmanshulme, was though part of the domain lands of Manchester Parish >> Church, after all Manchester did'nt become a Catherdral until about 1840. >> >> >> >> Gay J Oliver, Stalybridge, Cheshire >> gayandmike.co.uk >> tamesidefamilyhistory.co.uk >> ashtongrammar.co.uk >> www.tamesidehistoryforum.org.uk >> www.fhsc.org.uk/fhsc/dukinfield.htm >> >> >> ==================================== >> WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ >> ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> -- >> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. >> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >> Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: - Release Date: <unknown> >> >> > > ==================================== WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Am I also right in thinking that anywhere that has a cathedral is, at once, given the status of city? Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: <VictorOly@aol.com> To: <john.holden3@lineone.net>; <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 12:23 AM Subject: Re: [OEL] Racecourses and cathedrals > Kirkmanshulme, was though part of the domain lands of Manchester Parish > Church, after all Manchester did'nt become a Catherdral until about 1840. > > > > Gay J Oliver, Stalybridge, Cheshire > gayandmike.co.uk > tamesidefamilyhistory.co.uk > ashtongrammar.co.uk > www.tamesidehistoryforum.org.uk > www.fhsc.org.uk/fhsc/dukinfield.htm > > > ==================================== > WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > -- > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: - Release Date: <unknown> > >

Am I also right in thinking that anywhere that has a cathedral is, at once, given the status of city? Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "A Lee" <alee231@btinternet.com> To: <VictorOly@aol.com>; <john.holden3@lineone.net>; <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 11:02 AM Subject: Re: [OEL] Racecourses and cathedrals > Very late in the realms of cathedral creation though, don't you think? Is > it possible that the race courses prompted the promotion to cathedral > status? > > Audrey > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <VictorOly@aol.com> > To: <john.holden3@lineone.net>; <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 12:23 AM > Subject: Re: [OEL] Racecourses and cathedrals > > >> Kirkmanshulme, was though part of the domain lands of Manchester Parish >> Church, after all Manchester did'nt become a Catherdral until about 1840. >> >> >> >> Gay J Oliver, Stalybridge, Cheshire >> gayandmike.co.uk >> tamesidefamilyhistory.co.uk >> ashtongrammar.co.uk >> www.tamesidehistoryforum.org.uk >> www.fhsc.org.uk/fhsc/dukinfield.htm >> >> >> ==================================== >> WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ >> ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> -- >> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. >> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >> Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: - Release Date: <unknown> >> >> > >

Very late in the realms of cathedral creation though, don't you think? Is it possible that the race courses prompted the promotion to cathedral status? Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: <VictorOly@aol.com> To: <john.holden3@lineone.net>; <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 12:23 AM Subject: Re: [OEL] Racecourses and cathedrals > Kirkmanshulme, was though part of the domain lands of Manchester Parish > Church, after all Manchester did'nt become a Catherdral until about 1840. > > > > Gay J Oliver, Stalybridge, Cheshire > gayandmike.co.uk > tamesidefamilyhistory.co.uk > ashtongrammar.co.uk > www.tamesidehistoryforum.org.uk > www.fhsc.org.uk/fhsc/dukinfield.htm > > > ==================================== > WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > -- > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: - Release Date: <unknown> > >

Well OK, my bad, but it got me posting again and I'm sure you'll forgive me for not realising/remembering that the list, unlike most, is still set up for individual replies. Fear not, I'll go back into hiding for another five years. John > >I got both of these so think you did. > >Audrey > >I have feeling that soon Judith will put a stop to this string of >communications because it's not much to do with Old English as such. It was >partly because of an interest of mine and partly because no-one appeared to >be communicating. So, sorry in advance Judith and hope you will forgive the >slight diversification. > >Audrey > >----- Original Message ----- >From: <john.holden3@lineone.net> >To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> >Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 12:17 AM >Subject: Re: [OEL] Racecourses and cathedrals > > >> >> Hm strange reply all, thought I'd posted this to all but I was wrong, >> here it is again:- >> >> I know of three race courses in Manchester, actually two of them were >> in Salford, Kersal vale and a later that was lost to the extension of >> Manchester docks around 1900 though technically in Salford. >> A third in Kirkmanshulme that was never actually in Manchester. >> None could be described as being even remotely close to Manchester >> Cathedral, or even the Manchester parish church. >> >> John. >> >>> >>>That sounds a good idea. Of course, you do have also to look at >> topography. >>>As Barbara says, there are also those that appear to buck the trend, >> such as >>>Ely. Incidentally, we did also go to Ely. We just couldn't do >> cathedrals and >>>miss that glorious building out. Perhaps there was a race course >> there at >>>some time that has sunk beneath the mud? As I've just written to >> Barbara and >>>forgot to post to list (sorry), there was once a race course in the >> middle >>>of Manchester but Manchester Cathedral would still have been only a >>>collegiate church at that time, only having been comparatively >> recently >>>elevated to the status of cathedral. I also think that Barbara's idea >> of the >>>PhD might be a runner? >>> >>>As for me, I'm going to York Races soon and may or may not visit the >>>minster, having done this before. However, we did miss out the race >> course >>>on our tour as there wasn't a meeting on at that time. We did make >> an >>>overall win, using only minimum bets, that provided us with a good >> evening >>>meal before we arrived back home. I really could recommend the idea. >>> >>>Audrey >>> >>>----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Tompkins, M.L.L." <mllt1@leicester.ac.uk> >>>To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> >>>Sent: Monday, August 17, 2009 1:31 PM >>>Subject: Re: [OEL] Racecourses and cathedrals >>> >>> >>>> <<My question then and now is why do so many cathedrals have race >> courses >>>> nearby and the converse, why have so many race courses established >>>> themselves close to cathedrals? Can anyone help with this puzzle >> of >>>> mine?>> >>>> >>>> My guess would be (and it's just a guess) that race courses were >> usually >>>> set up in county towns and other similar places, because those were >> places >>>> where people, especially the horse-owning and -racing classes, >> tended to >>>> gather (for all sorts of reasons, administrative, legal, >> commercial, >>>> social) - and most cathedral cities were exactly that kind of >> place. >>>> >>>> Matt Tompkins >>>> >>>> >>>> ==================================== >>>> WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ >>>> ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. >>>> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >>>> Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: - Release Date: <unknown> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>==================================== >>>WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ >>>ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH >>> >>>------------------------------- >>>To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to OLD-ENGLISH- >> request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in >> the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> Protect your PC with 50% off Norton Security - >> http://www.tiscali.co.uk/securepc >> _______________________________________________________________________ >> >> >> >> ==================================== >> WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ >> ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> -- >> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. >> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >> Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: - Release Date: <unknown> >> >> Protect your PC with 50% off Norton Security - http://www.tiscali.co.uk/securepc _______________________________________________________________________

I got both of these so think you did. Audrey I have feeling that soon Judith will put a stop to this string of communications because it's not much to do with Old English as such. It was partly because of an interest of mine and partly because no-one appeared to be communicating. So, sorry in advance Judith and hope you will forgive the slight diversification. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: <john.holden3@lineone.net> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 12:17 AM Subject: Re: [OEL] Racecourses and cathedrals > > Hm strange reply all, thought I'd posted this to all but I was wrong, > here it is again:- > > I know of three race courses in Manchester, actually two of them were > in Salford, Kersal vale and a later that was lost to the extension of > Manchester docks around 1900 though technically in Salford. > A third in Kirkmanshulme that was never actually in Manchester. > None could be described as being even remotely close to Manchester > Cathedral, or even the Manchester parish church. > > John. > >> >>That sounds a good idea. Of course, you do have also to look at > topography. >>As Barbara says, there are also those that appear to buck the trend, > such as >>Ely. Incidentally, we did also go to Ely. We just couldn't do > cathedrals and >>miss that glorious building out. Perhaps there was a race course > there at >>some time that has sunk beneath the mud? As I've just written to > Barbara and >>forgot to post to list (sorry), there was once a race course in the > middle >>of Manchester but Manchester Cathedral would still have been only a >>collegiate church at that time, only having been comparatively > recently >>elevated to the status of cathedral. I also think that Barbara's idea > of the >>PhD might be a runner? >> >>As for me, I'm going to York Races soon and may or may not visit the >>minster, having done this before. However, we did miss out the race > course >>on our tour as there wasn't a meeting on at that time. We did make > an >>overall win, using only minimum bets, that provided us with a good > evening >>meal before we arrived back home. I really could recommend the idea. >> >>Audrey >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Tompkins, M.L.L." <mllt1@leicester.ac.uk> >>To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> >>Sent: Monday, August 17, 2009 1:31 PM >>Subject: Re: [OEL] Racecourses and cathedrals >> >> >>> <<My question then and now is why do so many cathedrals have race > courses >>> nearby and the converse, why have so many race courses established >>> themselves close to cathedrals? Can anyone help with this puzzle > of >>> mine?>> >>> >>> My guess would be (and it's just a guess) that race courses were > usually >>> set up in county towns and other similar places, because those were > places >>> where people, especially the horse-owning and -racing classes, > tended to >>> gather (for all sorts of reasons, administrative, legal, > commercial, >>> social) - and most cathedral cities were exactly that kind of > place. >>> >>> Matt Tompkins >>> >>> >>> ==================================== >>> WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ >>> ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. >>> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >>> Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: - Release Date: <unknown> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >>==================================== >>WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ >>ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH >> >>------------------------------- >>To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to OLD-ENGLISH- > request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in > the subject and the body of the message >> > > > > > > Protect your PC with 50% off Norton Security - > http://www.tiscali.co.uk/securepc > _______________________________________________________________________ > > > > ==================================== > WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > -- > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: - Release Date: <unknown> > >

Hm strange reply all, thought I'd posted this to all but I was wrong, here it is again:- I know of three race courses in Manchester, actually two of them were in Salford, Kersal vale and a later that was lost to the extension of Manchester docks around 1900 though technically in Salford. A third in Kirkmanshulme that was never actually in Manchester. None could be described as being even remotely close to Manchester Cathedral, or even the Manchester parish church. John. > >That sounds a good idea. Of course, you do have also to look at topography. >As Barbara says, there are also those that appear to buck the trend, such as >Ely. Incidentally, we did also go to Ely. We just couldn't do cathedrals and >miss that glorious building out. Perhaps there was a race course there at >some time that has sunk beneath the mud? As I've just written to Barbara and >forgot to post to list (sorry), there was once a race course in the middle >of Manchester but Manchester Cathedral would still have been only a >collegiate church at that time, only having been comparatively recently >elevated to the status of cathedral. I also think that Barbara's idea of the >PhD might be a runner? > >As for me, I'm going to York Races soon and may or may not visit the >minster, having done this before. However, we did miss out the race course >on our tour as there wasn't a meeting on at that time. We did make an >overall win, using only minimum bets, that provided us with a good evening >meal before we arrived back home. I really could recommend the idea. > >Audrey > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Tompkins, M.L.L." <mllt1@leicester.ac.uk> >To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> >Sent: Monday, August 17, 2009 1:31 PM >Subject: Re: [OEL] Racecourses and cathedrals > > >> <<My question then and now is why do so many cathedrals have race courses >> nearby and the converse, why have so many race courses established >> themselves close to cathedrals? Can anyone help with this puzzle of >> mine?>> >> >> My guess would be (and it's just a guess) that race courses were usually >> set up in county towns and other similar places, because those were places >> where people, especially the horse-owning and -racing classes, tended to >> gather (for all sorts of reasons, administrative, legal, commercial, >> social) - and most cathedral cities were exactly that kind of place. >> >> Matt Tompkins >> >> >> ==================================== >> WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ >> ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> -- >> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. >> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >> Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: - Release Date: <unknown> >> >> > > > > > >==================================== >WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ >ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to OLD-ENGLISH- request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > Protect your PC with 50% off Norton Security - http://www.tiscali.co.uk/securepc _______________________________________________________________________