Hi everyone NOW I understand how leaseholds work! Thanks to the very knowledgeable and helpful people on this list, I now *get* the differences between holding land in England and holding land in the U S. Very interesting concepts. Obviously, it works, given that it has been in effect for many centuries now. And I can see how a leasehold would be considered a valuable bequest. Now I will delve further and see if I can uncover just how my 5x great grandmother used that bequest. I have thanked all individuals who responded to my puzzlement, but a general thank you to all of the list participants seems in order. You all answer so many questions and fill in so many gaps in our research, and I, for one, appreciate it. Nancy a formerly-confused researcher

> Hello everyone > > I have been re-reading my 5x great-grandfather's Yorkshire will dated > 1775, and upon the re-reading I found a question. > > "Item I give and bequeath unto my Loving wife Ann Stonehouse her > Executive Administrator or asigns all that Farm or Tennement of > Leashold Estate lying and being att Moorhouse in Bransdale in the > Parish of Kirby Moorside in the County of York" > > My question: > > "bequest....Farm or Tennement of Leashold Estate" Would he have owned > the land at Moorhouse... or not? A leasehold is temporary ownership of land etc for a stated period of years - often 9, 19, 99, even 999 years, after which ownership reverts to the original lessor. So he could leave his wife the remaining 'term' or term or years' in the property, during which it was hers to do as she liked with other than (usually) sell off the timber on the land or demolish or damage the house. There is a complication of this (which does not appear to apply here) where property has been taken on a 'lease of lives' for an indeterminate period. It is measured by the life of the longest liver of three named person, who need not even be relatives, though they usually are, so they can be kept an eye on healthwise. If the first lessees names himself and two young children (not infants)then the lease lasts till the youngest child dies. It was normally possible to pay a little extra and substitute one life if an orignal nominee died young. > The named persons do not necessarily become the owners of the property, which is left in the usual way. Leaseholds were 'wasting assets,' so counted as personal estate, not real estate, for taxation purposes. > > If he did NOT own it, would she be able to live there? Yes if she wanted to, though it may have been bought in for renting purposes > Just to muddy the waters a bit, they were living at Bracken Hill in > Bilsdale - as tenant farmers - when this will was written. I have > always wondered why he was a tenant farmer if he owned another farm > across the valley, without sons old enough to run the "family" farm > while he was tenant farming. I have wondered who, then, ran > Moorhouse. Maybe the tenanted farm was big and fertile, but the leased farm had access to a stream, or owned a field which rounded off the main farm. It could have been bought in with an eye to giving the widow an income (or home) when the husband died.

Dear Nancy. The answer is NO, he would not have owned the farm or land. It was quite normal practice in the UK for a farmer to lease a farm from a very large estate, probably belonging to a Lord or very wealthy person that owned many farms etc. This could be for a period of say 15, 20 or 25 years. In the UK even today I would guess that the majority of farms are leasehold. The lease would have a value, that being of the un-used part of the period left on the lease. The shorter the remainder, the little of its value. It is right that he should leave the lease in his Will as it is an asset to his estate upon death. When the lease period is over, the tenant would have to vacate the farm, or, take out a new lease, probably at a higher rent than the previous lease and different terms may be applied etc. Hope that this helps. Richard T U.K.

Hello everyone I have been re-reading my 5x great-grandfather's Yorkshire will dated 1775, and upon the re-reading I found a question. "Item I give and bequeath unto my Loving wife Ann Stonehouse her Executive Administrator or asigns all that Farm or Tennement of Leashold Estate lying and being att Moorhouse in Bransdale in the Parish of Kirby Moorside in the County of York" My question: "bequest....Farm or Tennement of Leashold Estate" Would he have owned the land at Moorhouse... or not? I don't know how that works in Great Britain, but in the U S, he would not have been able to bequeath to his wife a piece of property that he did not own. I just don't know what a "Leashold Estate" is. Or how she would benefit by this bequest if he did not own it. If he did NOT own it, would she be able to live there? (I find no evidence that she or her children ever did. I do have evidence that she moved to Fangdale Beck, possibly to live with her oldest son, some years after her husband - Joseph STONEHOUSE - died.) Just to muddy the waters a bit, they were living at Bracken Hill in Bilsdale - as tenant farmers - when this will was written. I have always wondered why he was a tenant farmer if he owned another farm across the valley, without sons old enough to run the "family" farm while he was tenant farming. I have wondered who, then, ran Moorhouse. Can you come up with suggestions or ideas - or evidence - to clarify this situation? Thank you. Nancy >From sunny Michigan, U S of A

It is always difficult to transcribe names with the letters u, n, m and i in medieval records, and sometimes you just can't be sure what a name is unless you can find several references to what is clearly the same man and in at least one or two of them the letters are quite clear. But any form of these names beginning with 'le' is certainly not a version of Janes, since Janes is a patronym and no name beginning with 'le' can be a patronym (and ditto for 'de', 'atte' and all other prepositions). If that Jevne reference is preceded by 'le' it is probably Juvene - the Latin form of Jeune. As a medieval social and economic historian I would be delighted to have a copy of some sort (photo, photocopy, microfilm) of the manorial extents or surveys in Guy de Beauchamp's IPM. If you're willing to incur the cost of buying them from the PRO, I'd be happy to look through them for references to individuals called Janes or similar for you, and translate any relevant passages. Matt ________________________________________ From: Renee [dennis.newman@cox.net] Sent: 20 September 2009 13:58 To: Tompkins, M.L.L.; OLD-ENGLISH@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [OEL] Earl of Warwick-Beauchamp Matt, That is exactly what I had started wondering - if in fact the ones with double n's (Janne) were u's or the u's (in Jeune/Jaune) were in fact n's. One name was transcribed Jevne, so I was sure it was supposed to be a u or an n. Some were written with only one n, as Janys or Janes, so I'm pretty sure of them but suspect of the others could go either way. I'll have to get the court rolls of Elmley Castle. I knew it was wrong when World Cat showed the library in Sweden as the closest library. I may have a fellow researcher in TN who can find it for me there. The Calender of Inquisitions Post Mortem for Guy de Bello Campo show many lists of his manors in Worcester included names of the tenants. It doesn't say that for Elmley Castle for I see a few others that might be useful. Just don't know if it would be worth the money to find out! Thanks so much Matt, Renee ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tompkins, M.L.L." <mllt1@leicester.ac.uk> To: <OLD-ENGLISH@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2009 3:23 AM Subject: Re: [OEL] Earl of Warwick-Beauchamp > Renee, most American university libraries will subscribe to > theWorcestershire Historical Society's series, and many public reference > libraries will too. I see from WorldCat that there are certainly copies > of the Elmley Castle court roll volume in the libraries of the > Universities of Tennessee, Chicago and Illinois, and in the Newberry > Library in Chicago, and in other libraries in other states. > > The court rolls of the manor of Cropthorne, sometimes called Netherton, > are held in Worcester Cathedral Library. Unusually Worcester Priory did > not keep separate rolls for each manor it owned - instead all the courts > held in all their manors each year were written up in a single large roll, > with a new roll begun for the following year, so the Cropthorne courts are > scattered among a large number of courts from other manors. I'm afraid > they're in Latin and a very difficult medieval script. > > I'm not surprised to hear that your surname Janes can be found in the > 1320s but not in the same places in the 1280s. I believe this was a > common phenomenon in the West Midlands with surnames derived from > diminutive forms of personal names - it was certainly the case with my > own surname, Tomkins (= son of Thomas). I think it is probably for two > reasons: first, that many surnames of this type did not come into > existence until the early fourteenth century, and second, that even if > they had come to existence, until the early fourteenth century the clerks > who wrote up the records usually latinised surnames of this sort (so that > someone called Tomkins or Janes was written down as 'filius Thome' or > 'filius Johanne'). > > le Jeune is French for 'the young', so is a different surname from Janne > or Jannes. Janue is an odd form, but 'u' and 'n' were almost > indistinguishable in medieval script, so perhaps it ought to have been > transcribed as Janne (or as Jaune, ie Jeune!). > > Yes, Avisia would be a woman (Avice in English). Hawisia was a different > name, but also a female one (usually anglicised to Hawise). > > Matt > > ________________________________________ > From: Renee [dennis.newman@cox.net] > Sent: 20 September 2009 03:29 > To: Tompkins, M.L.L.; OLD-ENGLISH@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [OEL] Earl of Warwick-Beauchamp > > Matt, > Thank you very much, you just answered the question I had! I am sorry I > didn't make it clear that I meant other manors of the Earl of Warwick. > > I looked on WorldCat (through google book search) and it shows the closest > library that holds the book is in Sweden. I am sure that is incorrect but > being in Arkansas, I doubt I'll find it anywhere close. Last month a copy > sold on ebay for less than $10. but that doesn't help now, either. > > Could you tell me where the manor records for Netherton are held? > > I have searched the earlier subsidy roll (I think between 1275-1283 is > when > they date it). I don't see any Janes on it, in 1327 there are about 15 > Jannes/Janne's listed, I think some records are for the same men but there > are at least 4 different first names for men, plus two woman (I think > Avisia > would be a woman, I see another reference to an Avisia who's name was also > spelled Hawvisia). It doesn't seem right (to me) for that many of them to > be there in 1327 and none in circa 1280. I wondered if the surname was > taken sometime in between the two rolls. I thought court rolls might > help > determine that one way or the other. I also found the 1332-3 subsidy roll > but it is a fragmentl and doesn't have all of the locations they were in. > How-ever there is this name Jeune in the earlier roll, which is at least > interesting. > 1275-82 roll for Bretforten Henrico le Jeune xld. > 1327 Alington and Bretforten (combined) Henrico Janne ijs. (no > Janue/Jeune's > listed) (also a Henrico Janne taxed in Great Comberton) > 1332/3 Bretforten Willelmo Janue ijs. and in Aldynton a Thoma Janue ijs, > How-ever there are other Jeune's listed as a surname and as le Jeune in > other places in the roll, so I'm not sure if it could be the same. > > If I understand the taxation correctly (which I may not). Johanne Jannes > of > "Castel Elmeleye" seemed to have an equal holding (or at least equal > taxation) as that of Thomas de Beauchamp, and no one on the list was taxed > more than either of them at xviijd. Johanne Janys at Ekynton was taxed > ijs > vid only one person (out of 25) was taxed more than him and that was > Roberto > de Muchegros. I assume that this is one Johanne Janes, with two holdings > but he doesn't appear on the earlier roll unless he could be the Johanne > of > "Cornubia" at Elmley Castle. > > Thanks again, > Renee > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tompkins, M.L.L." <mllt1@leicester.ac.uk> > To: <OLD-ENGLISH@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2009 4:39 PM > Subject: Re: [OEL] Earl of Warwick-Beauchamp > > >> <<I have a question about the Beauchamp/Bello Campo's, I thought someone >> might know the answer to. I have a Janes family who were in Worcester in >> the 1327 Lay Subsiday Rolls in and around Emley Castle. It seems most of >> the parishes they were in were held by the Bello Campo's. I can find >> little else on them. >> >> I have found that Worcester Record Office houses the Court Rolls of >> Elmley >> Castle but I wondered if there are more records of the Earl of Warwick >> held somewhere that date to this period. I have written to Worcester >> Record Office about obtaining copies of the Court Rolls. Does anyone >> know >> if there are more records of the Earl of Warwick at this time?>> >> >> >> Dear Renee, >> >> Robert K. Field has produced a translation of the Elmley Castle manor >> court rolls which was published by the Worcestershire Historical Society >> in 2004 as "Court rolls of Elmley Castle, Worcestershire 1347-1564", . >> You may be able to find it in a reference library, which will save you >> the >> cost of obtaining copies of the original rolls, and a great deal of >> effort >> trying to decipher the medieval Latin in which they are written. >> Unfortunately, as you will see from the title, Elmley Castle's court >> rolls >> only begin in 1347 (there are seven courts from 1347-50, then a gap, then >> they start again in 1356 - their Worcester RO reference is (BA 899.95) >> 989/1). >> >> When you ask whether there are any other records of the Beauchamp earls >> of >> Warwick from this period (the first half of the fourteenth century), do >> you mean other types of records from Elmley Castle (ie other than court >> rolls)? I do not know if any exist, but Robert Field's introduction to >> his edition may tell you if there are any (if you're lucky there may be a >> rental or survey or extent, which would list all the manor's tenants by >> name and perhaps describe their tenancies - there may also be account >> rolls, but these are financial documents, unlikely to name many >> individuals). Otherwise the most certain simple way to discover what >> records survive from a given manor is to consult the Manorial Documents >> Register, now located at The National Records at Kew (the former PRO) - >> but unfortunately that can only be done by a personal visit, so far as >> I'm >> aware. >> >> If you mean, any records from other manors of the earls of Warwick near >> Elmley Castle, then I can tell that there are unlikely to be any such >> court rolls (none from before 1350, at least - I do not know about later >> periods), because two years ago I made an attempt to locate all surviving >> pre-1350 court rolls from manors in Worcestershire, Gloucs, Herefs, Salop >> and Staffs and found none from other manors of the earls of Warwick >> anywhere in those five counties. So far as court rolls from manors of >> other lords are concerned, the nearest I found to Elmley Castle were from >> the Worcester Priory manors of Cropthorne/Netherton, Sedgeberrow and >> Overbury/Teddington (which begin 1314 and are reasonably continuous up to >> 1350) and a Winchcombe Abbey manor at Twyning in Gloucs (just five >> pre-1350 courts, from 1341-2). For other types of manorial record you'd >> have to consult the Manorial Documents Register, though some Google >> searches might reveal some individual documents. >> >> Matt Tompkins >> >> >> ==================================== >> WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ >> ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ==================================== > WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Matt, Thanks again. The one with Jevne, didn't have le in front of it. I will see what it will cost to get the copies. I would be happy to have you look at them for me, if I can obtain them. I can't read latin, I can pick out a word here and there but that is it. Renee ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tompkins, M.L.L." <mllt1@leicester.ac.uk> To: <OLD-ENGLISH@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2009 11:59 AM Subject: Re: [OEL] Earl of Warwick-Beauchamp > It is always difficult to transcribe names with the letters u, n, m and i > in medieval records, and sometimes you just can't be sure what a name is > unless you can find several references to what is clearly the same man and > in at least one or two of them the letters are quite clear. But any form > of these names beginning with 'le' is certainly not a version of Janes, > since Janes is a patronym and no name beginning with 'le' can be a > patronym (and ditto for 'de', 'atte' and all other prepositions). If that > Jevne reference is preceded by 'le' it is probably Juvene - the Latin form > of Jeune. > > As a medieval social and economic historian I would be delighted to have a > copy of some sort (photo, photocopy, microfilm) of the manorial extents or > surveys in Guy de Beauchamp's IPM. If you're willing to incur the cost of > buying them from the PRO, I'd be happy to look through them for references > to individuals called Janes or similar for you, and translate any > relevant passages. > > Matt > > ________________________________________ > From: Renee [dennis.newman@cox.net] > Sent: 20 September 2009 13:58 > To: Tompkins, M.L.L.; OLD-ENGLISH@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [OEL] Earl of Warwick-Beauchamp > > Matt, > That is exactly what I had started wondering - if in fact the ones with > double n's (Janne) were u's or the u's (in Jeune/Jaune) were in fact n's. > One name was transcribed Jevne, so I was sure it was supposed to be a u or > an n. Some were written with only one n, as Janys or Janes, so I'm pretty > sure of them but suspect of the others could go either way. I'll have to > get the court rolls of Elmley Castle. I knew it was wrong when World Cat > showed the library in Sweden as the closest library. I may have a fellow > researcher in TN who can find it for me there. > > The Calender of Inquisitions Post Mortem for Guy de Bello Campo show many > lists of his manors in Worcester included names of the tenants. It > doesn't > say that for Elmley Castle for I see a few others that might be useful. > Just don't know if it would be worth the money to find out! > > Thanks so much Matt, > Renee > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tompkins, M.L.L." <mllt1@leicester.ac.uk> > To: <OLD-ENGLISH@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2009 3:23 AM > Subject: Re: [OEL] Earl of Warwick-Beauchamp > > >> Renee, most American university libraries will subscribe to >> theWorcestershire Historical Society's series, and many public reference >> libraries will too. I see from WorldCat that there are certainly copies >> of the Elmley Castle court roll volume in the libraries of the >> Universities of Tennessee, Chicago and Illinois, and in the Newberry >> Library in Chicago, and in other libraries in other states. >> >> The court rolls of the manor of Cropthorne, sometimes called Netherton, >> are held in Worcester Cathedral Library. Unusually Worcester Priory did >> not keep separate rolls for each manor it owned - instead all the courts >> held in all their manors each year were written up in a single large >> roll, >> with a new roll begun for the following year, so the Cropthorne courts >> are >> scattered among a large number of courts from other manors. I'm afraid >> they're in Latin and a very difficult medieval script. >> >> I'm not surprised to hear that your surname Janes can be found in the >> 1320s but not in the same places in the 1280s. I believe this was a >> common phenomenon in the West Midlands with surnames derived from >> diminutive forms of personal names - it was certainly the case with my >> own surname, Tomkins (= son of Thomas). I think it is probably for two >> reasons: first, that many surnames of this type did not come into >> existence until the early fourteenth century, and second, that even if >> they had come to existence, until the early fourteenth century the clerks >> who wrote up the records usually latinised surnames of this sort (so that >> someone called Tomkins or Janes was written down as 'filius Thome' or >> 'filius Johanne'). >> >> le Jeune is French for 'the young', so is a different surname from Janne >> or Jannes. Janue is an odd form, but 'u' and 'n' were almost >> indistinguishable in medieval script, so perhaps it ought to have been >> transcribed as Janne (or as Jaune, ie Jeune!). >> >> Yes, Avisia would be a woman (Avice in English). Hawisia was a different >> name, but also a female one (usually anglicised to Hawise). >> >> Matt >> >> ________________________________________ >> From: Renee [dennis.newman@cox.net] >> Sent: 20 September 2009 03:29 >> To: Tompkins, M.L.L.; OLD-ENGLISH@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [OEL] Earl of Warwick-Beauchamp >> >> Matt, >> Thank you very much, you just answered the question I had! I am sorry I >> didn't make it clear that I meant other manors of the Earl of Warwick. >> >> I looked on WorldCat (through google book search) and it shows the >> closest >> library that holds the book is in Sweden. I am sure that is incorrect >> but >> being in Arkansas, I doubt I'll find it anywhere close. Last month a >> copy >> sold on ebay for less than $10. but that doesn't help now, either. >> >> Could you tell me where the manor records for Netherton are held? >> >> I have searched the earlier subsidy roll (I think between 1275-1283 is >> when >> they date it). I don't see any Janes on it, in 1327 there are about 15 >> Jannes/Janne's listed, I think some records are for the same men but >> there >> are at least 4 different first names for men, plus two woman (I think >> Avisia >> would be a woman, I see another reference to an Avisia who's name was >> also >> spelled Hawvisia). It doesn't seem right (to me) for that many of them >> to >> be there in 1327 and none in circa 1280. I wondered if the surname was >> taken sometime in between the two rolls. I thought court rolls might >> help >> determine that one way or the other. I also found the 1332-3 subsidy >> roll >> but it is a fragmentl and doesn't have all of the locations they were in. >> How-ever there is this name Jeune in the earlier roll, which is at least >> interesting. >> 1275-82 roll for Bretforten Henrico le Jeune xld. >> 1327 Alington and Bretforten (combined) Henrico Janne ijs. (no >> Janue/Jeune's >> listed) (also a Henrico Janne taxed in Great Comberton) >> 1332/3 Bretforten Willelmo Janue ijs. and in Aldynton a Thoma Janue ijs, >> How-ever there are other Jeune's listed as a surname and as le Jeune in >> other places in the roll, so I'm not sure if it could be the same. >> >> If I understand the taxation correctly (which I may not). Johanne Jannes >> of >> "Castel Elmeleye" seemed to have an equal holding (or at least equal >> taxation) as that of Thomas de Beauchamp, and no one on the list was >> taxed >> more than either of them at xviijd. Johanne Janys at Ekynton was taxed >> ijs >> vid only one person (out of 25) was taxed more than him and that was >> Roberto >> de Muchegros. I assume that this is one Johanne Janes, with two holdings >> but he doesn't appear on the earlier roll unless he could be the Johanne >> of >> "Cornubia" at Elmley Castle. >> >> Thanks again, >> Renee >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Tompkins, M.L.L." <mllt1@leicester.ac.uk> >> To: <OLD-ENGLISH@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2009 4:39 PM >> Subject: Re: [OEL] Earl of Warwick-Beauchamp >> >> >>> <<I have a question about the Beauchamp/Bello Campo's, I thought someone >>> might know the answer to. I have a Janes family who were in Worcester >>> in >>> the 1327 Lay Subsiday Rolls in and around Emley Castle. It seems most >>> of >>> the parishes they were in were held by the Bello Campo's. I can find >>> little else on them. >>> >>> I have found that Worcester Record Office houses the Court Rolls of >>> Elmley >>> Castle but I wondered if there are more records of the Earl of Warwick >>> held somewhere that date to this period. I have written to Worcester >>> Record Office about obtaining copies of the Court Rolls. Does anyone >>> know >>> if there are more records of the Earl of Warwick at this time?>> >>> >>> >>> Dear Renee, >>> >>> Robert K. Field has produced a translation of the Elmley Castle manor >>> court rolls which was published by the Worcestershire Historical Society >>> in 2004 as "Court rolls of Elmley Castle, Worcestershire 1347-1564", . >>> You may be able to find it in a reference library, which will save you >>> the >>> cost of obtaining copies of the original rolls, and a great deal of >>> effort >>> trying to decipher the medieval Latin in which they are written. >>> Unfortunately, as you will see from the title, Elmley Castle's court >>> rolls >>> only begin in 1347 (there are seven courts from 1347-50, then a gap, >>> then >>> they start again in 1356 - their Worcester RO reference is (BA 899.95) >>> 989/1). >>> >>> When you ask whether there are any other records of the Beauchamp earls >>> of >>> Warwick from this period (the first half of the fourteenth century), do >>> you mean other types of records from Elmley Castle (ie other than court >>> rolls)? I do not know if any exist, but Robert Field's introduction to >>> his edition may tell you if there are any (if you're lucky there may be >>> a >>> rental or survey or extent, which would list all the manor's tenants by >>> name and perhaps describe their tenancies - there may also be account >>> rolls, but these are financial documents, unlikely to name many >>> individuals). Otherwise the most certain simple way to discover what >>> records survive from a given manor is to consult the Manorial Documents >>> Register, now located at The National Records at Kew (the former PRO) - >>> but unfortunately that can only be done by a personal visit, so far as >>> I'm >>> aware. >>> >>> If you mean, any records from other manors of the earls of Warwick near >>> Elmley Castle, then I can tell that there are unlikely to be any such >>> court rolls (none from before 1350, at least - I do not know about later >>> periods), because two years ago I made an attempt to locate all >>> surviving >>> pre-1350 court rolls from manors in Worcestershire, Gloucs, Herefs, >>> Salop >>> and Staffs and found none from other manors of the earls of Warwick >>> anywhere in those five counties. So far as court rolls from manors of >>> other lords are concerned, the nearest I found to Elmley Castle were >>> from >>> the Worcester Priory manors of Cropthorne/Netherton, Sedgeberrow and >>> Overbury/Teddington (which begin 1314 and are reasonably continuous up >>> to >>> 1350) and a Winchcombe Abbey manor at Twyning in Gloucs (just five >>> pre-1350 courts, from 1341-2). For other types of manorial record you'd >>> have to consult the Manorial Documents Register, though some Google >>> searches might reveal some individual documents. >>> >>> Matt Tompkins >>> >>> >>> ==================================== >>> WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ >>> ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ==================================== >> WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ >> ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ==================================== > WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Renee, most American university libraries will subscribe to theWorcestershire Historical Society's series, and many public reference libraries will too. I see from WorldCat that there are certainly copies of the Elmley Castle court roll volume in the libraries of the Universities of Tennessee, Chicago and Illinois, and in the Newberry Library in Chicago, and in other libraries in other states. The court rolls of the manor of Cropthorne, sometimes called Netherton, are held in Worcester Cathedral Library. Unusually Worcester Priory did not keep separate rolls for each manor it owned - instead all the courts held in all their manors each year were written up in a single large roll, with a new roll begun for the following year, so the Cropthorne courts are scattered among a large number of courts from other manors. I'm afraid they're in Latin and a very difficult medieval script. I'm not surprised to hear that your surname Janes can be found in the 1320s but not in the same places in the 1280s. I believe this was a common phenomenon in the West Midlands with surnames derived from diminutive forms of personal names - it was certainly the case with my own surname, Tomkins (= son of Thomas). I think it is probably for two reasons: first, that many surnames of this type did not come into existence until the early fourteenth century, and second, that even if they had come to existence, until the early fourteenth century the clerks who wrote up the records usually latinised surnames of this sort (so that someone called Tomkins or Janes was written down as 'filius Thome' or 'filius Johanne'). le Jeune is French for 'the young', so is a different surname from Janne or Jannes. Janue is an odd form, but 'u' and 'n' were almost indistinguishable in medieval script, so perhaps it ought to have been transcribed as Janne (or as Jaune, ie Jeune!). Yes, Avisia would be a woman (Avice in English). Hawisia was a different name, but also a female one (usually anglicised to Hawise). Matt ________________________________________ From: Renee [dennis.newman@cox.net] Sent: 20 September 2009 03:29 To: Tompkins, M.L.L.; OLD-ENGLISH@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [OEL] Earl of Warwick-Beauchamp Matt, Thank you very much, you just answered the question I had! I am sorry I didn't make it clear that I meant other manors of the Earl of Warwick. I looked on WorldCat (through google book search) and it shows the closest library that holds the book is in Sweden. I am sure that is incorrect but being in Arkansas, I doubt I'll find it anywhere close. Last month a copy sold on ebay for less than $10. but that doesn't help now, either. Could you tell me where the manor records for Netherton are held? I have searched the earlier subsidy roll (I think between 1275-1283 is when they date it). I don't see any Janes on it, in 1327 there are about 15 Jannes/Janne's listed, I think some records are for the same men but there are at least 4 different first names for men, plus two woman (I think Avisia would be a woman, I see another reference to an Avisia who's name was also spelled Hawvisia). It doesn't seem right (to me) for that many of them to be there in 1327 and none in circa 1280. I wondered if the surname was taken sometime in between the two rolls. I thought court rolls might help determine that one way or the other. I also found the 1332-3 subsidy roll but it is a fragmentl and doesn't have all of the locations they were in. How-ever there is this name Jeune in the earlier roll, which is at least interesting. 1275-82 roll for Bretforten Henrico le Jeune xld. 1327 Alington and Bretforten (combined) Henrico Janne ijs. (no Janue/Jeune's listed) (also a Henrico Janne taxed in Great Comberton) 1332/3 Bretforten Willelmo Janue ijs. and in Aldynton a Thoma Janue ijs, How-ever there are other Jeune's listed as a surname and as le Jeune in other places in the roll, so I'm not sure if it could be the same. If I understand the taxation correctly (which I may not). Johanne Jannes of "Castel Elmeleye" seemed to have an equal holding (or at least equal taxation) as that of Thomas de Beauchamp, and no one on the list was taxed more than either of them at xviijd. Johanne Janys at Ekynton was taxed ijs vid only one person (out of 25) was taxed more than him and that was Roberto de Muchegros. I assume that this is one Johanne Janes, with two holdings but he doesn't appear on the earlier roll unless he could be the Johanne of "Cornubia" at Elmley Castle. Thanks again, Renee ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tompkins, M.L.L." <mllt1@leicester.ac.uk> To: <OLD-ENGLISH@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2009 4:39 PM Subject: Re: [OEL] Earl of Warwick-Beauchamp > <<I have a question about the Beauchamp/Bello Campo's, I thought someone > might know the answer to. I have a Janes family who were in Worcester in > the 1327 Lay Subsiday Rolls in and around Emley Castle. It seems most of > the parishes they were in were held by the Bello Campo's. I can find > little else on them. > > I have found that Worcester Record Office houses the Court Rolls of Elmley > Castle but I wondered if there are more records of the Earl of Warwick > held somewhere that date to this period. I have written to Worcester > Record Office about obtaining copies of the Court Rolls. Does anyone know > if there are more records of the Earl of Warwick at this time?>> > > > Dear Renee, > > Robert K. Field has produced a translation of the Elmley Castle manor > court rolls which was published by the Worcestershire Historical Society > in 2004 as "Court rolls of Elmley Castle, Worcestershire 1347-1564", . > You may be able to find it in a reference library, which will save you the > cost of obtaining copies of the original rolls, and a great deal of effort > trying to decipher the medieval Latin in which they are written. > Unfortunately, as you will see from the title, Elmley Castle's court rolls > only begin in 1347 (there are seven courts from 1347-50, then a gap, then > they start again in 1356 - their Worcester RO reference is (BA 899.95) > 989/1). > > When you ask whether there are any other records of the Beauchamp earls of > Warwick from this period (the first half of the fourteenth century), do > you mean other types of records from Elmley Castle (ie other than court > rolls)? I do not know if any exist, but Robert Field's introduction to > his edition may tell you if there are any (if you're lucky there may be a > rental or survey or extent, which would list all the manor's tenants by > name and perhaps describe their tenancies - there may also be account > rolls, but these are financial documents, unlikely to name many > individuals). Otherwise the most certain simple way to discover what > records survive from a given manor is to consult the Manorial Documents > Register, now located at The National Records at Kew (the former PRO) - > but unfortunately that can only be done by a personal visit, so far as I'm > aware. > > If you mean, any records from other manors of the earls of Warwick near > Elmley Castle, then I can tell that there are unlikely to be any such > court rolls (none from before 1350, at least - I do not know about later > periods), because two years ago I made an attempt to locate all surviving > pre-1350 court rolls from manors in Worcestershire, Gloucs, Herefs, Salop > and Staffs and found none from other manors of the earls of Warwick > anywhere in those five counties. So far as court rolls from manors of > other lords are concerned, the nearest I found to Elmley Castle were from > the Worcester Priory manors of Cropthorne/Netherton, Sedgeberrow and > Overbury/Teddington (which begin 1314 and are reasonably continuous up to > 1350) and a Winchcombe Abbey manor at Twyning in Gloucs (just five > pre-1350 courts, from 1341-2). For other types of manorial record you'd > have to consult the Manorial Documents Register, though some Google > searches might reveal some individual documents. > > Matt Tompkins > > > ==================================== > WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Matt, That is exactly what I had started wondering - if in fact the ones with double n's (Janne) were u's or the u's (in Jeune/Jaune) were in fact n's. One name was transcribed Jevne, so I was sure it was supposed to be a u or an n. Some were written with only one n, as Janys or Janes, so I'm pretty sure of them but suspect of the others could go either way. I'll have to get the court rolls of Elmley Castle. I knew it was wrong when World Cat showed the library in Sweden as the closest library. I may have a fellow researcher in TN who can find it for me there. The Calender of Inquisitions Post Mortem for Guy de Bello Campo show many lists of his manors in Worcester included names of the tenants. It doesn't say that for Elmley Castle for I see a few others that might be useful. Just don't know if it would be worth the money to find out! Thanks so much Matt, Renee ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tompkins, M.L.L." <mllt1@leicester.ac.uk> To: <OLD-ENGLISH@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2009 3:23 AM Subject: Re: [OEL] Earl of Warwick-Beauchamp > Renee, most American university libraries will subscribe to > theWorcestershire Historical Society's series, and many public reference > libraries will too. I see from WorldCat that there are certainly copies > of the Elmley Castle court roll volume in the libraries of the > Universities of Tennessee, Chicago and Illinois, and in the Newberry > Library in Chicago, and in other libraries in other states. > > The court rolls of the manor of Cropthorne, sometimes called Netherton, > are held in Worcester Cathedral Library. Unusually Worcester Priory did > not keep separate rolls for each manor it owned - instead all the courts > held in all their manors each year were written up in a single large roll, > with a new roll begun for the following year, so the Cropthorne courts are > scattered among a large number of courts from other manors. I'm afraid > they're in Latin and a very difficult medieval script. > > I'm not surprised to hear that your surname Janes can be found in the > 1320s but not in the same places in the 1280s. I believe this was a > common phenomenon in the West Midlands with surnames derived from > diminutive forms of personal names - it was certainly the case with my > own surname, Tomkins (= son of Thomas). I think it is probably for two > reasons: first, that many surnames of this type did not come into > existence until the early fourteenth century, and second, that even if > they had come to existence, until the early fourteenth century the clerks > who wrote up the records usually latinised surnames of this sort (so that > someone called Tomkins or Janes was written down as 'filius Thome' or > 'filius Johanne'). > > le Jeune is French for 'the young', so is a different surname from Janne > or Jannes. Janue is an odd form, but 'u' and 'n' were almost > indistinguishable in medieval script, so perhaps it ought to have been > transcribed as Janne (or as Jaune, ie Jeune!). > > Yes, Avisia would be a woman (Avice in English). Hawisia was a different > name, but also a female one (usually anglicised to Hawise). > > Matt > > ________________________________________ > From: Renee [dennis.newman@cox.net] > Sent: 20 September 2009 03:29 > To: Tompkins, M.L.L.; OLD-ENGLISH@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [OEL] Earl of Warwick-Beauchamp > > Matt, > Thank you very much, you just answered the question I had! I am sorry I > didn't make it clear that I meant other manors of the Earl of Warwick. > > I looked on WorldCat (through google book search) and it shows the closest > library that holds the book is in Sweden. I am sure that is incorrect but > being in Arkansas, I doubt I'll find it anywhere close. Last month a copy > sold on ebay for less than $10. but that doesn't help now, either. > > Could you tell me where the manor records for Netherton are held? > > I have searched the earlier subsidy roll (I think between 1275-1283 is > when > they date it). I don't see any Janes on it, in 1327 there are about 15 > Jannes/Janne's listed, I think some records are for the same men but there > are at least 4 different first names for men, plus two woman (I think > Avisia > would be a woman, I see another reference to an Avisia who's name was also > spelled Hawvisia). It doesn't seem right (to me) for that many of them to > be there in 1327 and none in circa 1280. I wondered if the surname was > taken sometime in between the two rolls. I thought court rolls might > help > determine that one way or the other. I also found the 1332-3 subsidy roll > but it is a fragmentl and doesn't have all of the locations they were in. > How-ever there is this name Jeune in the earlier roll, which is at least > interesting. > 1275-82 roll for Bretforten Henrico le Jeune xld. > 1327 Alington and Bretforten (combined) Henrico Janne ijs. (no > Janue/Jeune's > listed) (also a Henrico Janne taxed in Great Comberton) > 1332/3 Bretforten Willelmo Janue ijs. and in Aldynton a Thoma Janue ijs, > How-ever there are other Jeune's listed as a surname and as le Jeune in > other places in the roll, so I'm not sure if it could be the same. > > If I understand the taxation correctly (which I may not). Johanne Jannes > of > "Castel Elmeleye" seemed to have an equal holding (or at least equal > taxation) as that of Thomas de Beauchamp, and no one on the list was taxed > more than either of them at xviijd. Johanne Janys at Ekynton was taxed > ijs > vid only one person (out of 25) was taxed more than him and that was > Roberto > de Muchegros. I assume that this is one Johanne Janes, with two holdings > but he doesn't appear on the earlier roll unless he could be the Johanne > of > "Cornubia" at Elmley Castle. > > Thanks again, > Renee > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tompkins, M.L.L." <mllt1@leicester.ac.uk> > To: <OLD-ENGLISH@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2009 4:39 PM > Subject: Re: [OEL] Earl of Warwick-Beauchamp > > >> <<I have a question about the Beauchamp/Bello Campo's, I thought someone >> might know the answer to. I have a Janes family who were in Worcester in >> the 1327 Lay Subsiday Rolls in and around Emley Castle. It seems most of >> the parishes they were in were held by the Bello Campo's. I can find >> little else on them. >> >> I have found that Worcester Record Office houses the Court Rolls of >> Elmley >> Castle but I wondered if there are more records of the Earl of Warwick >> held somewhere that date to this period. I have written to Worcester >> Record Office about obtaining copies of the Court Rolls. Does anyone >> know >> if there are more records of the Earl of Warwick at this time?>> >> >> >> Dear Renee, >> >> Robert K. Field has produced a translation of the Elmley Castle manor >> court rolls which was published by the Worcestershire Historical Society >> in 2004 as "Court rolls of Elmley Castle, Worcestershire 1347-1564", . >> You may be able to find it in a reference library, which will save you >> the >> cost of obtaining copies of the original rolls, and a great deal of >> effort >> trying to decipher the medieval Latin in which they are written. >> Unfortunately, as you will see from the title, Elmley Castle's court >> rolls >> only begin in 1347 (there are seven courts from 1347-50, then a gap, then >> they start again in 1356 - their Worcester RO reference is (BA 899.95) >> 989/1). >> >> When you ask whether there are any other records of the Beauchamp earls >> of >> Warwick from this period (the first half of the fourteenth century), do >> you mean other types of records from Elmley Castle (ie other than court >> rolls)? I do not know if any exist, but Robert Field's introduction to >> his edition may tell you if there are any (if you're lucky there may be a >> rental or survey or extent, which would list all the manor's tenants by >> name and perhaps describe their tenancies - there may also be account >> rolls, but these are financial documents, unlikely to name many >> individuals). Otherwise the most certain simple way to discover what >> records survive from a given manor is to consult the Manorial Documents >> Register, now located at The National Records at Kew (the former PRO) - >> but unfortunately that can only be done by a personal visit, so far as >> I'm >> aware. >> >> If you mean, any records from other manors of the earls of Warwick near >> Elmley Castle, then I can tell that there are unlikely to be any such >> court rolls (none from before 1350, at least - I do not know about later >> periods), because two years ago I made an attempt to locate all surviving >> pre-1350 court rolls from manors in Worcestershire, Gloucs, Herefs, Salop >> and Staffs and found none from other manors of the earls of Warwick >> anywhere in those five counties. So far as court rolls from manors of >> other lords are concerned, the nearest I found to Elmley Castle were from >> the Worcester Priory manors of Cropthorne/Netherton, Sedgeberrow and >> Overbury/Teddington (which begin 1314 and are reasonably continuous up to >> 1350) and a Winchcombe Abbey manor at Twyning in Gloucs (just five >> pre-1350 courts, from 1341-2). For other types of manorial record you'd >> have to consult the Manorial Documents Register, though some Google >> searches might reveal some individual documents. >> >> Matt Tompkins >> >> >> ==================================== >> WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ >> ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ==================================== > WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

<<I have a question about the Beauchamp/Bello Campo's, I thought someone might know the answer to. I have a Janes family who were in Worcester in the 1327 Lay Subsiday Rolls in and around Emley Castle. It seems most of the parishes they were in were held by the Bello Campo's. I can find little else on them. I have found that Worcester Record Office houses the Court Rolls of Elmley Castle but I wondered if there are more records of the Earl of Warwick held somewhere that date to this period. I have written to Worcester Record Office about obtaining copies of the Court Rolls. Does anyone know if there are more records of the Earl of Warwick at this time?>> Dear Renee, Robert K. Field has produced a translation of the Elmley Castle manor court rolls which was published by the Worcestershire Historical Society in 2004 as "Court rolls of Elmley Castle, Worcestershire 1347-1564", . You may be able to find it in a reference library, which will save you the cost of obtaining copies of the original rolls, and a great deal of effort trying to decipher the medieval Latin in which they are written. Unfortunately, as you will see from the title, Elmley Castle's court rolls only begin in 1347 (there are seven courts from 1347-50, then a gap, then they start again in 1356 - their Worcester RO reference is (BA 899.95) 989/1). When you ask whether there are any other records of the Beauchamp earls of Warwick from this period (the first half of the fourteenth century), do you mean other types of records from Elmley Castle (ie other than court rolls)? I do not know if any exist, but Robert Field's introduction to his edition may tell you if there are any (if you're lucky there may be a rental or survey or extent, which would list all the manor's tenants by name and perhaps describe their tenancies - there may also be account rolls, but these are financial documents, unlikely to name many individuals). Otherwise the most certain simple way to discover what records survive from a given manor is to consult the Manorial Documents Register, now located at The National Records at Kew (the former PRO) - but unfortunately that can only be done by a personal visit, so far as I'm aware. If you mean, any records from other manors of the earls of Warwick near Elmley Castle, then I can tell that there are unlikely to be any such court rolls (none from before 1350, at least - I do not know about later periods), because two years ago I made an attempt to locate all surviving pre-1350 court rolls from manors in Worcestershire, Gloucs, Herefs, Salop and Staffs and found none from other manors of the earls of Warwick anywhere in those five counties. So far as court rolls from manors of other lords are concerned, the nearest I found to Elmley Castle were from the Worcester Priory manors of Cropthorne/Netherton, Sedgeberrow and Overbury/Teddington (which begin 1314 and are reasonably continuous up to 1350) and a Winchcombe Abbey manor at Twyning in Gloucs (just five pre-1350 courts, from 1341-2). For other types of manorial record you'd have to consult the Manorial Documents Register, though some Google searches might reveal some individual documents. Matt Tompkins

Matt, Thank you very much, you just answered the question I had! I am sorry I didn't make it clear that I meant other manors of the Earl of Warwick. I looked on WorldCat (through google book search) and it shows the closest library that holds the book is in Sweden. I am sure that is incorrect but being in Arkansas, I doubt I'll find it anywhere close. Last month a copy sold on ebay for less than $10. but that doesn't help now, either. Could you tell me where the manor records for Netherton are held? I have searched the earlier subsidy roll (I think between 1275-1283 is when they date it). I don't see any Janes on it, in 1327 there are about 15 Jannes/Janne's listed, I think some records are for the same men but there are at least 4 different first names for men, plus two woman (I think Avisia would be a woman, I see another reference to an Avisia who's name was also spelled Hawvisia). It doesn't seem right (to me) for that many of them to be there in 1327 and none in circa 1280. I wondered if the surname was taken sometime in between the two rolls. I thought court rolls might help determine that one way or the other. I also found the 1332-3 subsidy roll but it is a fragmentl and doesn't have all of the locations they were in. How-ever there is this name Jeune in the earlier roll, which is at least interesting. 1275-82 roll for Bretforten Henrico le Jeune xld. 1327 Alington and Bretforten (combined) Henrico Janne ijs. (no Janue/Jeune's listed) (also a Henrico Janne taxed in Great Comberton) 1332/3 Bretforten Willelmo Janue ijs. and in Aldynton a Thoma Janue ijs, How-ever there are other Jeune's listed as a surname and as le Jeune in other places in the roll, so I'm not sure if it could be the same. If I understand the taxation correctly (which I may not). Johanne Jannes of "Castel Elmeleye" seemed to have an equal holding (or at least equal taxation) as that of Thomas de Beauchamp, and no one on the list was taxed more than either of them at xviijd. Johanne Janys at Ekynton was taxed ijs vid only one person (out of 25) was taxed more than him and that was Roberto de Muchegros. I assume that this is one Johanne Janes, with two holdings but he doesn't appear on the earlier roll unless he could be the Johanne of "Cornubia" at Elmley Castle. Thanks again, Renee ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tompkins, M.L.L." <mllt1@leicester.ac.uk> To: <OLD-ENGLISH@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2009 4:39 PM Subject: Re: [OEL] Earl of Warwick-Beauchamp > <<I have a question about the Beauchamp/Bello Campo's, I thought someone > might know the answer to. I have a Janes family who were in Worcester in > the 1327 Lay Subsiday Rolls in and around Emley Castle. It seems most of > the parishes they were in were held by the Bello Campo's. I can find > little else on them. > > I have found that Worcester Record Office houses the Court Rolls of Elmley > Castle but I wondered if there are more records of the Earl of Warwick > held somewhere that date to this period. I have written to Worcester > Record Office about obtaining copies of the Court Rolls. Does anyone know > if there are more records of the Earl of Warwick at this time?>> > > > Dear Renee, > > Robert K. Field has produced a translation of the Elmley Castle manor > court rolls which was published by the Worcestershire Historical Society > in 2004 as "Court rolls of Elmley Castle, Worcestershire 1347-1564", . > You may be able to find it in a reference library, which will save you the > cost of obtaining copies of the original rolls, and a great deal of effort > trying to decipher the medieval Latin in which they are written. > Unfortunately, as you will see from the title, Elmley Castle's court rolls > only begin in 1347 (there are seven courts from 1347-50, then a gap, then > they start again in 1356 - their Worcester RO reference is (BA 899.95) > 989/1). > > When you ask whether there are any other records of the Beauchamp earls of > Warwick from this period (the first half of the fourteenth century), do > you mean other types of records from Elmley Castle (ie other than court > rolls)? I do not know if any exist, but Robert Field's introduction to > his edition may tell you if there are any (if you're lucky there may be a > rental or survey or extent, which would list all the manor's tenants by > name and perhaps describe their tenancies - there may also be account > rolls, but these are financial documents, unlikely to name many > individuals). Otherwise the most certain simple way to discover what > records survive from a given manor is to consult the Manorial Documents > Register, now located at The National Records at Kew (the former PRO) - > but unfortunately that can only be done by a personal visit, so far as I'm > aware. > > If you mean, any records from other manors of the earls of Warwick near > Elmley Castle, then I can tell that there are unlikely to be any such > court rolls (none from before 1350, at least - I do not know about later > periods), because two years ago I made an attempt to locate all surviving > pre-1350 court rolls from manors in Worcestershire, Gloucs, Herefs, Salop > and Staffs and found none from other manors of the earls of Warwick > anywhere in those five counties. So far as court rolls from manors of > other lords are concerned, the nearest I found to Elmley Castle were from > the Worcester Priory manors of Cropthorne/Netherton, Sedgeberrow and > Overbury/Teddington (which begin 1314 and are reasonably continuous up to > 1350) and a Winchcombe Abbey manor at Twyning in Gloucs (just five > pre-1350 courts, from 1341-2). For other types of manorial record you'd > have to consult the Manorial Documents Register, though some Google > searches might reveal some individual documents. > > Matt Tompkins > > > ==================================== > WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I have a question about the Beauchamp/Bello Campo's, I thought someone might know the answer to. I have a Janes family who were in Worcester in the 1327 Lay Subsiday Rolls in and around Emley Castle. It seems most of the parishes they were in were held by the Bello Campo's. I can find little else on them. I have found that Worcester Record Office houses the Court Rolls of Elmley Castle but I wondered if there are more records of the Earl of Warwick held somewhere that date to this period. I have written to Worcester Record Office about obtaining copies of the Court Rolls. Does anyone know if there are more records of the Earl of Warwick at this time? Thanks, Renee Newman

Hi all, thanks for all the thoughts, sorry I've not responded sooner but I've been away. However: Barker is the person's name, it's a well established surname in the area, which is Melford in Suffolk. Audrey, your point about the two sources is a good one, but doesn't work in this case - the list of people in the militia (these are the people who went, the substitutes whose families are getting supported while they are away) comes about 2 pages later in the same quarter's poor relief payments, and there's no Barker in any of the previous ones either. There's no local source which gives the names of the peope who were originally pricked so no chance of getting the two confused. Intriguing as it is, it's not important enough to me at the moment to go rooting around in the National Archives, but as 'Irish Pay' doesn't seem to be a pseudonym for something completely different it must have some military link ... but not one I'm going to establish at the moment! But more ideas very welcome! Thanks again for the thoughts Lyn B ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roy Cox" <roy.cox@btinternet.com> To: <old-english@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2009 1:56 PM Subject: Re: [OEL] Irish Pay > > Audrey - > > "Flying" up the right tree may be a better thought? > > You may well be right connection to surnames reminded persons who they > were > and what they did. > > Having "skip-read" through a couple of books I have on surnames, there > seems > not to be any point in time that one could say yes or no to this. The only > thing that can be said is that these occupational names became the subject > of error from handwriting and the spoken word at about c.17th - 19th > centuries, so that Barker could quite easily change to Banker, Backer > Etc!!! > and vice-versa > > Cheers > Roy > > -----Original Message----- > From: A Lee [mailto:alee231@btinternet.com] > Sent: 13 September 2009 22:53 > To: ROY COX > Subject: Re: [OEL] Irish Pay > > Hello again Roy. I was thinking that by 1800 the connection to occupations > of surnames would no longer apply, having settled into use by descendants > who had acquired various other occupations, hence my name of Hawkes no > longer, by that time, being anything to do with falconry. Or am I > "barking" > up the wrong tree? > > Audrey > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "ROY COX" <roy.cox@btinternet.com> > To: <old-english@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 6:34 PM > Subject: Re: [OEL] Irish Pay > > > No doubt about that at all, most names evolved from a variety of > occupations > > and environments. I did make a small reference to the "Fairground" type of > Barking but I didn't call it that; but all reference books do include that > definition though which you are quite right about. > > NIce also to be in touch here again, it seemed as if Rootsweb had given us > the push!!!. Ha-Ha! > > Kind Regards > > Roy > > > --- On Sat, 12/9/09, A Lee <alee231@btinternet.com> wrote: > > > From: A Lee <alee231@btinternet.com> > Subject: Re: [OEL] Irish Pay > To: "Roy Cox" <roy.cox@btinternet.com> > Date: Saturday, 12 September, 2009, 11:21 PM > > > Hello Roy > > Do you think that by 1800 a number of occupational names would have been > just passed down as surnames, e.g. Smith, Taylor etc and therefore also > Barker, Tanner and so on? I'm sure that by that time my maiden name of > Hawkes no longer had anything to do with falconry. They all worked on or > around the River Thames as various sorts of mariner. Another consideration > with the name Barker, in earlier times, could have been calling out at a > fairground or similar, couldn't it? Interesting about the connection to > tanning though. I'd forgotten that they would have needed a lot of bark > gathering and so a particular labourer could have been called a barker. > > Nice to be in touch again. > Audrey > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Roy Cox" <roy.cox@btinternet.com> > To: "'A Lee'" <alee231@btinternet.com> > Cc: <old-english@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2009 9:33 PM > Subject: RE: [OEL] Irish Pay > > >> Hi Audrey - >> >> Hope you are well? - I think we had an armed force of some description in >> Ireland a few years before The Commonwealth when in the time of Lambert >> Simnel & Perkin Warbeck of Henry VII vintage who stated; in what seems to >> be >> disguised terms, in order to underline an important truth about danger >> for >> the English Crown from within the British Isles themselves. that Ireland >> and >> Scotland were both trouble spots. This era seems just as troublesome >> then, >> as it has been ever since at different times. Like all things it was a >> mixture of politics and personal gain. >> >> The experience of Henry VII's reign is quite well documented in an ex >> Buckinghamshire County Library book; England under the Tudors. But >> soldiering did not come to be realised as a profession until Cromwell's >> time >> when he formed his Model Army, a well trained and professional force, >> somewhat similar one supposes, to that of today's fighting force, but of >> under much differing circumstances and armoury, but of the same temper?? >> >> Looking back at Lyn's letter I see that the period was 1800 (Sorry Lyn I >> didn't look properly!), a time when all manner of differences were being >> fought for, both here and abroad. >> >> Thinking of Lyn's reference to Poor Relief payments, there was the >> surname >> of BARKER used in the 10th - 11th centuries and probably further on? - >> One >> origin if of Olde French meaning a shepherd but would be >> indistinguishable >> (my book says) from meaning a tanner. We then come to a variation Thomas >> del >> BARKHOUSE meaning that Thomas was of the Tannery. Logically this could >> then >> be pay to the tanner's wife for performing some task which involved some >> Irish connection? >> >> Finally, the entry concedes the name Barker and its variants to be >> occupational and in this case, a Tanner. >> >> Cheers >> Roy >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: A Lee [mailto:alee231@btinternet.com] >> Sent: 12 September 2009 11:05 >> To: Roy Cox; old-english@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [OEL] Irish Pay >> >> Hello Roy >> >> It occurs to me that it may be worth while looking at the constitution of >> the English army in Ireland at that time. We seem to have more or less >> kept >> soldiers in that country ever since Cromwell's time. I think you would >> know >> more about military sources than I do but I have a feeling that the War >> Office have archives. Am I right. >> >> Audrey >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Roy Cox" <roy.cox@btinternet.com> >> To: <old-english@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2009 10:49 AM >> Subject: Re: [OEL] Irish Pay >> >> >>> Hi - sorry to be a bit late in replying Lyn - I seem to have "mislaid" >>> your >>> email but if I remember rightly, the area is Sussex? >>> >>> The thought occurs "Is this word 'Barker'" the name of a person or does >>> it >>> refer to someone doing something, like a tout advertising wares, a show >>> etc., in a loud voice to attract custom? - a recruiting Sgt would have >>> done >>> so also in those days! >>> >>> Maybe the Irish Pay was paid to a recruiting Sgt's wife whilst he was on >>> service in Ireland, or on his death, being the residue of his pay due? >>> >>> As it seems this was a one-off entry, this could be the answer, >>> especially >>> as the parish concerned was not near Ireland. >>> >>> Do we know the date of this entry or any further detail from the records >>> concerned? >>> >>> Cheers >>> Roy >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: old-english-bounces@rootsweb.com >>> [mailto:old-english-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lyn Boothman >>> Sent: 12 September 2009 01:58 >>> To: A Lee; old-english@rootsweb.com >>> Subject: Re: [OEL] Irish Pay >>> >>> Thanks Audrey >>> I don't have any idea of the regiment - but since I sent the email I've >>> come >>> >>> across a list of the people who were off in the militia at the time, >>> whose >>> families were being supported, and there's no Barker amongst them ...so >>> end >>> >>> of that idea. >>> >>> Lyn B >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "A Lee" <alee231@btinternet.com> >>> To: "Lyn Boothman" <annys@boothman27.fsnet.co.uk> >>> Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 11:40 PM >>> Subject: Re: [OEL] Irish Pay >>> >>> >>>> >>>> Do you know the name of the Militia, i.e. is it a local militia or is >>>> it >>>> a >>> >>>> regiment? Who funds the militia? Presumably it's the parish? If you >>>> know >>>> the name of the regiment then you should be able to trace its >>>> activities >>>> at this time. I have to admit that I have no knowledge of military >>>> history >>> >>>> but we do seem to have had troupes in Ireland for a long time over a >>>> number of centuries, e.g. Oliver Cromwell's men were there and, much >>>> later, the Black and Tans - all detested by the Irish. Even Lloyd >>>> George >>>> had to try to solve the "Irish Problem". >>>> >>>> Audrey >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Lyn Boothman" <annys@boothman27.fsnet.co.uk> >>>> To: <OLD-ENGLISH@rootsw> Sent: Thursday, September 10, eb.com> >>> 2009 10:38 PM >>>> Subject: [OEL] Irish Pay >>>> >>>> >>>>> Can anyone help? >>>>> >>>>> I am working my way through some poor relief payments from 1800 and >>>>> it's >>>>> a bit of a scrawl but all very straightforward, just like loads of >>>>> others, until I got to >>>>> >>>>> 'To 5 weeks Irish pay to Barker's wife, 8d a week' 3s 4d >>>>> >>>>> This is the first time I've come across the term 'Irish pay'. I tried >>>>> Google but of course you get Irish pay rises, the Irish pay for this >>>>> and >>>>> that and the other etc ... >>>>> >>>>> The Overseers are regularly paying for to support the families of men >>>>> in >>>>> the Militia, so could Barker be in Ireland in the militia? Or is there >>>>> some other meaning of 'Irish pay' that someone knows about. >>>>> It's very clear on the page so I don't think it's a misreading. >>>>> >>>>> Lyn B >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ==================================== >>>>> WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ >>>>> ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>>>> the >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. >>>>> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >>>>> Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.12.5/147 - Release Date: >>>>> 24/10/2005 >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ==================================== >>> WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ >>> ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> ==================================== >>> WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ >>> ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. >>> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >>> Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.12.5/147 - Release Date: >>> 24/10/2005 >>> >>> >> >> >> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > > > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.12.5/147 - Release Date: 24/10/2005 > > > > > > ==================================== > WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > -- > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.12.5/147 - Release Date: 24/10/2005 > > > > > > > ==================================== > WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >

Audrey - "Flying" up the right tree may be a better thought? You may well be right connection to surnames reminded persons who they were and what they did. Having "skip-read" through a couple of books I have on surnames, there seems not to be any point in time that one could say yes or no to this. The only thing that can be said is that these occupational names became the subject of error from handwriting and the spoken word at about c.17th - 19th centuries, so that Barker could quite easily change to Banker, Backer Etc!!! and vice-versa Cheers Roy -----Original Message----- From: A Lee [mailto:alee231@btinternet.com] Sent: 13 September 2009 22:53 To: ROY COX Subject: Re: [OEL] Irish Pay Hello again Roy. I was thinking that by 1800 the connection to occupations of surnames would no longer apply, having settled into use by descendants who had acquired various other occupations, hence my name of Hawkes no longer, by that time, being anything to do with falconry. Or am I "barking" up the wrong tree? Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "ROY COX" <roy.cox@btinternet.com> To: <old-english@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 6:34 PM Subject: Re: [OEL] Irish Pay No doubt about that at all, most names evolved from a variety of occupations and environments. I did make a small reference to the "Fairground" type of Barking but I didn't call it that; but all reference books do include that definition though which you are quite right about. NIce also to be in touch here again, it seemed as if Rootsweb had given us the push!!!. Ha-Ha! Kind Regards Roy --- On Sat, 12/9/09, A Lee <alee231@btinternet.com> wrote: From: A Lee <alee231@btinternet.com> Subject: Re: [OEL] Irish Pay To: "Roy Cox" <roy.cox@btinternet.com> Date: Saturday, 12 September, 2009, 11:21 PM Hello Roy Do you think that by 1800 a number of occupational names would have been just passed down as surnames, e.g. Smith, Taylor etc and therefore also Barker, Tanner and so on? I'm sure that by that time my maiden name of Hawkes no longer had anything to do with falconry. They all worked on or around the River Thames as various sorts of mariner. Another consideration with the name Barker, in earlier times, could have been calling out at a fairground or similar, couldn't it? Interesting about the connection to tanning though. I'd forgotten that they would have needed a lot of bark gathering and so a particular labourer could have been called a barker. Nice to be in touch again. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roy Cox" <roy.cox@btinternet.com> To: "'A Lee'" <alee231@btinternet.com> Cc: <old-english@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2009 9:33 PM Subject: RE: [OEL] Irish Pay > Hi Audrey - > > Hope you are well? - I think we had an armed force of some description in > Ireland a few years before The Commonwealth when in the time of Lambert > Simnel & Perkin Warbeck of Henry VII vintage who stated; in what seems to > be > disguised terms, in order to underline an important truth about danger for > the English Crown from within the British Isles themselves. that Ireland > and > Scotland were both trouble spots. This era seems just as troublesome then, > as it has been ever since at different times. Like all things it was a > mixture of politics and personal gain. > > The experience of Henry VII's reign is quite well documented in an ex > Buckinghamshire County Library book; England under the Tudors. But > soldiering did not come to be realised as a profession until Cromwell's > time > when he formed his Model Army, a well trained and professional force, > somewhat similar one supposes, to that of today's fighting force, but of > under much differing circumstances and armoury, but of the same temper?? > > Looking back at Lyn's letter I see that the period was 1800 (Sorry Lyn I > didn't look properly!), a time when all manner of differences were being > fought for, both here and abroad. > > Thinking of Lyn's reference to Poor Relief payments, there was the surname > of BARKER used in the 10th - 11th centuries and probably further on? - One > origin if of Olde French meaning a shepherd but would be indistinguishable > (my book says) from meaning a tanner. We then come to a variation Thomas > del > BARKHOUSE meaning that Thomas was of the Tannery. Logically this could > then > be pay to the tanner's wife for performing some task which involved some > Irish connection? > > Finally, the entry concedes the name Barker and its variants to be > occupational and in this case, a Tanner. > > Cheers > Roy > > -----Original Message----- > From: A Lee [mailto:alee231@btinternet.com] > Sent: 12 September 2009 11:05 > To: Roy Cox; old-english@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [OEL] Irish Pay > > Hello Roy > > It occurs to me that it may be worth while looking at the constitution of > the English army in Ireland at that time. We seem to have more or less > kept > soldiers in that country ever since Cromwell's time. I think you would > know > more about military sources than I do but I have a feeling that the War > Office have archives. Am I right. > > Audrey > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Roy Cox" <roy.cox@btinternet.com> > To: <old-english@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2009 10:49 AM > Subject: Re: [OEL] Irish Pay > > >> Hi - sorry to be a bit late in replying Lyn - I seem to have "mislaid" >> your >> email but if I remember rightly, the area is Sussex? >> >> The thought occurs "Is this word 'Barker'" the name of a person or does >> it >> refer to someone doing something, like a tout advertising wares, a show >> etc., in a loud voice to attract custom? - a recruiting Sgt would have >> done >> so also in those days! >> >> Maybe the Irish Pay was paid to a recruiting Sgt's wife whilst he was on >> service in Ireland, or on his death, being the residue of his pay due? >> >> As it seems this was a one-off entry, this could be the answer, >> especially >> as the parish concerned was not near Ireland. >> >> Do we know the date of this entry or any further detail from the records >> concerned? >> >> Cheers >> Roy >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: old-english-bounces@rootsweb.com >> [mailto:old-english-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lyn Boothman >> Sent: 12 September 2009 01:58 >> To: A Lee; old-english@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [OEL] Irish Pay >> >> Thanks Audrey >> I don't have any idea of the regiment - but since I sent the email I've >> come >> >> across a list of the people who were off in the militia at the time, >> whose >> families were being supported, and there's no Barker amongst them ...so >> end >> >> of that idea. >> >> Lyn B >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "A Lee" <alee231@btinternet.com> >> To: "Lyn Boothman" <annys@boothman27.fsnet.co.uk> >> Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 11:40 PM >> Subject: Re: [OEL] Irish Pay >> >> >>> >>> Do you know the name of the Militia, i.e. is it a local militia or is it >>> a >> >>> regiment? Who funds the militia? Presumably it's the parish? If you know >>> the name of the regiment then you should be able to trace its activities >>> at this time. I have to admit that I have no knowledge of military >>> history >> >>> but we do seem to have had troupes in Ireland for a long time over a >>> number of centuries, e.g. Oliver Cromwell's men were there and, much >>> later, the Black and Tans - all detested by the Irish. Even Lloyd George >>> had to try to solve the "Irish Problem". >>> >>> Audrey >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Lyn Boothman" <annys@boothman27.fsnet.co.uk> >>> To: <OLD-ENGLISH@rootsw> Sent: Thursday, September 10, eb.com> >> 2009 10:38 PM >>> Subject: [OEL] Irish Pay >>> >>> >>>> Can anyone help? >>>> >>>> I am working my way through some poor relief payments from 1800 and >>>> it's >>>> a bit of a scrawl but all very straightforward, just like loads of >>>> others, until I got to >>>> >>>> 'To 5 weeks Irish pay to Barker's wife, 8d a week' 3s 4d >>>> >>>> This is the first time I've come across the term 'Irish pay'. I tried >>>> Google but of course you get Irish pay rises, the Irish pay for this >>>> and >>>> that and the other etc ... >>>> >>>> The Overseers are regularly paying for to support the families of men >>>> in >>>> the Militia, so could Barker be in Ireland in the militia? Or is there >>>> some other meaning of 'Irish pay' that someone knows about. >>>> It's very clear on the page so I don't think it's a misreading. >>>> >>>> Lyn B >>>> >>>> >>>> ==================================== >>>> WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ >>>> ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>>> the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. >>>> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >>>> Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.12.5/147 - Release Date: >>>> 24/10/2005 >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> ==================================== >> WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ >> ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ==================================== >> WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ >> ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> -- >> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. >> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >> Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.12.5/147 - Release Date: >> 24/10/2005 >> >> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.12.5/147 - Release Date: 24/10/2005 ==================================== WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.12.5/147 - Release Date: 24/10/2005

No doubt about that at all, most names evolved from a variety of occupations and environments. I did make a small reference to the "Fairground" type of Barking but I didn't call it that; but all reference books do include that definition though which you are quite right about.   NIce also to be in touch here again, it seemed as if Rootsweb had given us the push!!!. Ha-Ha!   Kind Regards Roy --- On Sat, 12/9/09, A Lee <alee231@btinternet.com> wrote: From: A Lee <alee231@btinternet.com> Subject: Re: [OEL] Irish Pay To: "Roy Cox" <roy.cox@btinternet.com> Date: Saturday, 12 September, 2009, 11:21 PM Hello Roy Do you think that by 1800 a number of occupational names would have been just passed down as surnames, e.g. Smith, Taylor etc and therefore also Barker, Tanner and so on? I'm sure that by that time my maiden name of Hawkes no longer had anything to do with falconry. They all worked on or around the River Thames as various sorts of mariner. Another consideration with the name Barker, in earlier times, could have been calling out at a fairground or similar, couldn't it? Interesting about the connection to tanning though. I'd forgotten that they would have needed a lot of bark gathering and so a particular labourer could have been called a barker. Nice to be in touch again. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roy Cox" <roy.cox@btinternet.com> To: "'A Lee'" <alee231@btinternet.com> Cc: <old-english@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2009 9:33 PM Subject: RE: [OEL] Irish Pay > Hi Audrey - > > Hope you are well? - I think we had an armed force of some description in > Ireland a few years before The Commonwealth when in the time of Lambert > Simnel & Perkin Warbeck of Henry VII vintage who stated; in what seems to > be > disguised terms, in order to underline an important truth about danger for > the English Crown from within the British Isles themselves. that Ireland > and > Scotland were both trouble spots. This era seems just as troublesome then, > as it has been ever since at different times. Like all things it was a > mixture of politics and personal gain. > > The experience of Henry VII's reign is quite well documented in an ex > Buckinghamshire County Library book; England under the Tudors. But > soldiering did not come to be realised as a profession until Cromwell's > time > when he formed his Model Army, a well trained and professional force, > somewhat similar one supposes, to that of today's fighting force, but of > under much differing circumstances and armoury, but of the same temper?? > > Looking back at Lyn's letter I see that the period was 1800 (Sorry Lyn I > didn't look properly!), a time when all manner of differences were being > fought for, both here and abroad. > > Thinking of Lyn's reference to Poor Relief payments, there was the surname > of BARKER used in the 10th - 11th centuries and probably further on? - One > origin if of Olde French meaning a shepherd but would be indistinguishable > (my book says) from meaning a tanner. We then come to a variation Thomas > del > BARKHOUSE meaning that Thomas was of the Tannery. Logically this could > then > be pay to the tanner's wife for performing some task which involved some > Irish connection? > > Finally, the entry concedes the name Barker and its variants to be > occupational and in this case, a Tanner. > > Cheers > Roy > > -----Original Message----- > From: A Lee [mailto:alee231@btinternet.com] > Sent: 12 September 2009 11:05 > To: Roy Cox; old-english@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [OEL] Irish Pay > > Hello Roy > > It occurs to me that it may be worth while looking at the constitution of > the English army in Ireland at that time. We seem to have more or less > kept > soldiers in that country ever since Cromwell's time. I think you would > know > more about military sources than I do but I have a feeling that the War > Office have archives. Am I right. > > Audrey > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Roy Cox" <roy.cox@btinternet.com> > To: <old-english@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2009 10:49 AM > Subject: Re: [OEL] Irish Pay > > >> Hi - sorry to be a bit late in replying Lyn - I seem to have "mislaid" >> your >> email but if I remember rightly, the area is Sussex? >> >> The thought occurs "Is this word 'Barker'" the name of a person or does >> it >> refer to someone doing something, like a tout advertising wares, a show >> etc., in a loud voice to attract custom? - a recruiting Sgt would have >> done >> so also in those days! >> >> Maybe the Irish Pay was paid to a recruiting Sgt's wife whilst he was on >> service in Ireland, or on his death, being the residue of his pay due? >> >> As it seems this was a one-off entry, this could be the answer, >> especially >> as the parish concerned was not near Ireland. >> >> Do we know the date of this entry or any further detail from the records >> concerned? >> >> Cheers >> Roy >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: old-english-bounces@rootsweb.com >> [mailto:old-english-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lyn Boothman >> Sent: 12 September 2009 01:58 >> To: A Lee; old-english@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [OEL] Irish Pay >> >> Thanks Audrey >> I don't have any idea of the regiment - but since I sent the email I've >> come >> >> across a list of the people who were off in the militia at the time, >> whose >> families were being supported, and there's no Barker  amongst them ...so >> end >> >> of that idea. >> >> Lyn B >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "A Lee" <alee231@btinternet.com> >> To: "Lyn Boothman" <annys@boothman27.fsnet.co.uk> >> Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 11:40 PM >> Subject: Re: [OEL] Irish Pay >> >> >>> >>> Do you know the name of the Militia, i.e. is it a local militia or is it >>> a >> >>> regiment? Who funds the militia? Presumably it's the parish? If you know >>> the name of the regiment then you should be able to trace its activities >>> at this time. I have to admit that I have no knowledge of military >>> history >> >>> but we do seem to have had troupes in Ireland for a long time over a >>> number of centuries, e.g. Oliver Cromwell's men were there and, much >>> later, the Black and Tans - all detested by the Irish. Even Lloyd George >>> had to try to solve the "Irish Problem". >>> >>> Audrey >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Lyn Boothman" <annys@boothman27.fsnet.co.uk> >>> To: <OLD-ENGLISH@rootsw> Sent: Thursday, September 10, eb.com> >> 2009 10:38 PM >>> Subject: [OEL] Irish Pay >>> >>> >>>> Can anyone help? >>>> >>>> I am working my way through some poor relief payments from 1800 and >>>> it's >>>> a bit of a scrawl but all very straightforward, just like loads of >>>> others, until I got to >>>> >>>> 'To 5 weeks Irish pay to Barker's wife, 8d a week' 3s 4d >>>> >>>> This is the first time I've come across the term 'Irish pay'. I tried >>>> Google but of course you get Irish pay rises, the Irish pay for this >>>> and >>>> that and the other etc ... >>>> >>>> The Overseers are regularly paying for to support the families of men >>>> in >>>> the Militia, so could Barker be in Ireland in the militia? Or is there >>>> some other meaning of 'Irish pay' that someone knows about. >>>> It's very clear on the page so I don't think it's a misreading. >>>> >>>> Lyn B >>>> >>>> >>>> ==================================== >>>> WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ >>>> ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>>> the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. >>>> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >>>> Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.12.5/147 - Release Date: >>>> 24/10/2005 >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> ==================================== >> WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ >> ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ==================================== >> WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ >> ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> -- >> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. >> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >> Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.12.5/147 - Release Date: >> 24/10/2005 >> >> > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.12.5/147 - Release Date: 24/10/2005

This was sent to the 'bounce' address so I'm forwarding it to the list. Do not reply to me, please -- I'm only forwarding it. Judith Werner Salt Lake City, Utah, USA Administrator, OLD-ENGLISH http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ ----- Original Message ----- From: <eve@varneys.org.uk> To: "A Lee" <alee231@btinternet.com> Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2009 2:11 PM Subject: Re: [OEL] Irish Pay > Hello Roy > > It occurs to me that it may be worth while looking at the > constitution > of the English army in Ireland at that time. We seem to have more or > less kept soldiers in that country ever since Cromwell's time. I > think > you would know more about military sources than I do but I have a > feeling that the War Office have archives. Am I right. No the National Archives have all the older and accessible military material. The Militia, recruited for short service from men who were selected by a pin mark from a list of those in each parish liable (18-45 on pecetime). 5 in peaetime) Where possible, the pin pricked men of substance, who didn't want to go, so provided ;substitutes' and the cost to the parish was minimised. Wives and families of settled men were supported during the service. Strrictly, the militia was only supposed to serve in the county, or at most in England. If they volunteered to serve overseas (and Ireland involved crossing the water) then a slightly higher rate of rate and presumably rate of family subsistence was offered. I think it is likely that Barker was simply one of the militia, maybe not originally listed because he was a substitute.

Hi Audrey - Hope you are well? - I think we had an armed force of some description in Ireland a few years before The Commonwealth when in the time of Lambert Simnel & Perkin Warbeck of Henry VII vintage who stated; in what seems to be disguised terms, in order to underline an important truth about danger for the English Crown from within the British Isles themselves. that Ireland and Scotland were both trouble spots. This era seems just as troublesome then, as it has been ever since at different times. Like all things it was a mixture of politics and personal gain. The experience of Henry VII's reign is quite well documented in an ex Buckinghamshire County Library book; England under the Tudors. But soldiering did not come to be realised as a profession until Cromwell's time when he formed his Model Army, a well trained and professional force, somewhat similar one supposes, to that of today's fighting force, but of under much differing circumstances and armoury, but of the same temper?? Looking back at Lyn's letter I see that the period was 1800 (Sorry Lyn I didn't look properly!), a time when all manner of differences were being fought for, both here and abroad. Thinking of Lyn's reference to Poor Relief payments, there was the surname of BARKER used in the 10th - 11th centuries and probably further on? - One origin if of Olde French meaning a shepherd but would be indistinguishable (my book says) from meaning a tanner. We then come to a variation Thomas del BARKHOUSE meaning that Thomas was of the Tannery. Logically this could then be pay to the tanner's wife for performing some task which involved some Irish connection? Finally, the entry concedes the name Barker and its variants to be occupational and in this case, a Tanner. Cheers Roy -----Original Message----- From: A Lee [mailto:alee231@btinternet.com] Sent: 12 September 2009 11:05 To: Roy Cox; old-english@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [OEL] Irish Pay Hello Roy It occurs to me that it may be worth while looking at the constitution of the English army in Ireland at that time. We seem to have more or less kept soldiers in that country ever since Cromwell's time. I think you would know more about military sources than I do but I have a feeling that the War Office have archives. Am I right. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roy Cox" <roy.cox@btinternet.com> To: <old-english@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2009 10:49 AM Subject: Re: [OEL] Irish Pay > Hi - sorry to be a bit late in replying Lyn - I seem to have "mislaid" > your > email but if I remember rightly, the area is Sussex? > > The thought occurs "Is this word 'Barker'" the name of a person or does it > refer to someone doing something, like a tout advertising wares, a show > etc., in a loud voice to attract custom? - a recruiting Sgt would have > done > so also in those days! > > Maybe the Irish Pay was paid to a recruiting Sgt's wife whilst he was on > service in Ireland, or on his death, being the residue of his pay due? > > As it seems this was a one-off entry, this could be the answer, especially > as the parish concerned was not near Ireland. > > Do we know the date of this entry or any further detail from the records > concerned? > > Cheers > Roy > > -----Original Message----- > From: old-english-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:old-english-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lyn Boothman > Sent: 12 September 2009 01:58 > To: A Lee; old-english@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [OEL] Irish Pay > > Thanks Audrey > I don't have any idea of the regiment - but since I sent the email I've > come > > across a list of the people who were off in the militia at the time, whose > families were being supported, and there's no Barker amongst them ...so > end > > of that idea. > > Lyn B > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "A Lee" <alee231@btinternet.com> > To: "Lyn Boothman" <annys@boothman27.fsnet.co.uk> > Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 11:40 PM > Subject: Re: [OEL] Irish Pay > > >> >> Do you know the name of the Militia, i.e. is it a local militia or is it >> a > >> regiment? Who funds the militia? Presumably it's the parish? If you know >> the name of the regiment then you should be able to trace its activities >> at this time. I have to admit that I have no knowledge of military >> history > >> but we do seem to have had troupes in Ireland for a long time over a >> number of centuries, e.g. Oliver Cromwell's men were there and, much >> later, the Black and Tans - all detested by the Irish. Even Lloyd George >> had to try to solve the "Irish Problem". >> >> Audrey >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Lyn Boothman" <annys@boothman27.fsnet.co.uk> >> To: <OLD-ENGLISH@rootsw> Sent: Thursday, September 10, eb.com> > 2009 10:38 PM >> Subject: [OEL] Irish Pay >> >> >>> Can anyone help? >>> >>> I am working my way through some poor relief payments from 1800 and it's >>> a bit of a scrawl but all very straightforward, just like loads of >>> others, until I got to >>> >>> 'To 5 weeks Irish pay to Barker's wife, 8d a week' 3s 4d >>> >>> This is the first time I've come across the term 'Irish pay'. I tried >>> Google but of course you get Irish pay rises, the Irish pay for this and >>> that and the other etc ... >>> >>> The Overseers are regularly paying for to support the families of men in >>> the Militia, so could Barker be in Ireland in the militia? Or is there >>> some other meaning of 'Irish pay' that someone knows about. >>> It's very clear on the page so I don't think it's a misreading. >>> >>> Lyn B >>> >>> >>> ==================================== >>> WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ >>> ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. >>> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >>> Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.12.5/147 - Release Date: >>> 24/10/2005 >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > ==================================== > WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ==================================== > WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > -- > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.12.5/147 - Release Date: 24/10/2005 > >

Hello Roy It occurs to me that it may be worth while looking at the constitution of the English army in Ireland at that time. We seem to have more or less kept soldiers in that country ever since Cromwell's time. I think you would know more about military sources than I do but I have a feeling that the War Office have archives. Am I right. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roy Cox" <roy.cox@btinternet.com> To: <old-english@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2009 10:49 AM Subject: Re: [OEL] Irish Pay > Hi - sorry to be a bit late in replying Lyn - I seem to have "mislaid" > your > email but if I remember rightly, the area is Sussex? > > The thought occurs "Is this word 'Barker'" the name of a person or does it > refer to someone doing something, like a tout advertising wares, a show > etc., in a loud voice to attract custom? - a recruiting Sgt would have > done > so also in those days! > > Maybe the Irish Pay was paid to a recruiting Sgt's wife whilst he was on > service in Ireland, or on his death, being the residue of his pay due? > > As it seems this was a one-off entry, this could be the answer, especially > as the parish concerned was not near Ireland. > > Do we know the date of this entry or any further detail from the records > concerned? > > Cheers > Roy > > -----Original Message----- > From: old-english-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:old-english-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lyn Boothman > Sent: 12 September 2009 01:58 > To: A Lee; old-english@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [OEL] Irish Pay > > Thanks Audrey > I don't have any idea of the regiment - but since I sent the email I've > come > > across a list of the people who were off in the militia at the time, whose > families were being supported, and there's no Barker amongst them ...so > end > > of that idea. > > Lyn B > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "A Lee" <alee231@btinternet.com> > To: "Lyn Boothman" <annys@boothman27.fsnet.co.uk> > Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 11:40 PM > Subject: Re: [OEL] Irish Pay > > >> >> Do you know the name of the Militia, i.e. is it a local militia or is it >> a > >> regiment? Who funds the militia? Presumably it's the parish? If you know >> the name of the regiment then you should be able to trace its activities >> at this time. I have to admit that I have no knowledge of military >> history > >> but we do seem to have had troupes in Ireland for a long time over a >> number of centuries, e.g. Oliver Cromwell's men were there and, much >> later, the Black and Tans - all detested by the Irish. Even Lloyd George >> had to try to solve the "Irish Problem". >> >> Audrey >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Lyn Boothman" <annys@boothman27.fsnet.co.uk> >> To: <OLD-ENGLISH@rootsw> Sent: Thursday, September 10, eb.com> > 2009 10:38 PM >> Subject: [OEL] Irish Pay >> >> >>> Can anyone help? >>> >>> I am working my way through some poor relief payments from 1800 and it's >>> a bit of a scrawl but all very straightforward, just like loads of >>> others, until I got to >>> >>> 'To 5 weeks Irish pay to Barker's wife, 8d a week' 3s 4d >>> >>> This is the first time I've come across the term 'Irish pay'. I tried >>> Google but of course you get Irish pay rises, the Irish pay for this and >>> that and the other etc ... >>> >>> The Overseers are regularly paying for to support the families of men in >>> the Militia, so could Barker be in Ireland in the militia? Or is there >>> some other meaning of 'Irish pay' that someone knows about. >>> It's very clear on the page so I don't think it's a misreading. >>> >>> Lyn B >>> >>> >>> ==================================== >>> WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ >>> ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. >>> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >>> Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.12.5/147 - Release Date: >>> 24/10/2005 >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > ==================================== > WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ==================================== > WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > -- > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.12.5/147 - Release Date: 24/10/2005 > >

Hi - sorry to be a bit late in replying Lyn - I seem to have "mislaid" your email but if I remember rightly, the area is Sussex? The thought occurs "Is this word 'Barker'" the name of a person or does it refer to someone doing something, like a tout advertising wares, a show etc., in a loud voice to attract custom? - a recruiting Sgt would have done so also in those days! Maybe the Irish Pay was paid to a recruiting Sgt's wife whilst he was on service in Ireland, or on his death, being the residue of his pay due? As it seems this was a one-off entry, this could be the answer, especially as the parish concerned was not near Ireland. Do we know the date of this entry or any further detail from the records concerned? Cheers Roy -----Original Message----- From: old-english-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:old-english-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lyn Boothman Sent: 12 September 2009 01:58 To: A Lee; old-english@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [OEL] Irish Pay Thanks Audrey I don't have any idea of the regiment - but since I sent the email I've come across a list of the people who were off in the militia at the time, whose families were being supported, and there's no Barker amongst them ...so end of that idea. Lyn B ----- Original Message ----- From: "A Lee" <alee231@btinternet.com> To: "Lyn Boothman" <annys@boothman27.fsnet.co.uk> Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 11:40 PM Subject: Re: [OEL] Irish Pay > > Do you know the name of the Militia, i.e. is it a local militia or is it a > regiment? Who funds the militia? Presumably it's the parish? If you know > the name of the regiment then you should be able to trace its activities > at this time. I have to admit that I have no knowledge of military history > but we do seem to have had troupes in Ireland for a long time over a > number of centuries, e.g. Oliver Cromwell's men were there and, much > later, the Black and Tans - all detested by the Irish. Even Lloyd George > had to try to solve the "Irish Problem". > > Audrey > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lyn Boothman" <annys@boothman27.fsnet.co.uk> > To: <OLD-ENGLISH@rootsw> Sent: Thursday, September 10, eb.com> 2009 10:38 PM > Subject: [OEL] Irish Pay > > >> Can anyone help? >> >> I am working my way through some poor relief payments from 1800 and it's >> a bit of a scrawl but all very straightforward, just like loads of >> others, until I got to >> >> 'To 5 weeks Irish pay to Barker's wife, 8d a week' 3s 4d >> >> This is the first time I've come across the term 'Irish pay'. I tried >> Google but of course you get Irish pay rises, the Irish pay for this and >> that and the other etc ... >> >> The Overseers are regularly paying for to support the families of men in >> the Militia, so could Barker be in Ireland in the militia? Or is there >> some other meaning of 'Irish pay' that someone knows about. >> It's very clear on the page so I don't think it's a misreading. >> >> Lyn B >> >> >> ==================================== >> WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ >> ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> -- >> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. >> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >> Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.12.5/147 - Release Date: >> 24/10/2005 >> >> > > > > > ==================================== WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thanks Audrey I don't have any idea of the regiment - but since I sent the email I've come across a list of the people who were off in the militia at the time, whose families were being supported, and there's no Barker amongst them ...so end of that idea. Lyn B ----- Original Message ----- From: "A Lee" <alee231@btinternet.com> To: "Lyn Boothman" <annys@boothman27.fsnet.co.uk> Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 11:40 PM Subject: Re: [OEL] Irish Pay > > Do you know the name of the Militia, i.e. is it a local militia or is it a > regiment? Who funds the militia? Presumably it's the parish? If you know > the name of the regiment then you should be able to trace its activities > at this time. I have to admit that I have no knowledge of military history > but we do seem to have had troupes in Ireland for a long time over a > number of centuries, e.g. Oliver Cromwell's men were there and, much > later, the Black and Tans - all detested by the Irish. Even Lloyd George > had to try to solve the "Irish Problem". > > Audrey > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lyn Boothman" <annys@boothman27.fsnet.co.uk> > To: <OLD-ENGLISH@rootsw> Sent: Thursday, September 10, eb.com> 2009 10:38 PM > Subject: [OEL] Irish Pay > > >> Can anyone help? >> >> I am working my way through some poor relief payments from 1800 and it's >> a bit of a scrawl but all very straightforward, just like loads of >> others, until I got to >> >> 'To 5 weeks Irish pay to Barker's wife, 8d a week' 3s 4d >> >> This is the first time I've come across the term 'Irish pay'. I tried >> Google but of course you get Irish pay rises, the Irish pay for this and >> that and the other etc ... >> >> The Overseers are regularly paying for to support the families of men in >> the Militia, so could Barker be in Ireland in the militia? Or is there >> some other meaning of 'Irish pay' that someone knows about. >> It's very clear on the page so I don't think it's a misreading. >> >> Lyn B >> >> >> ==================================== >> WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ >> ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> -- >> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. >> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >> Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.12.5/147 - Release Date: >> 24/10/2005 >> >> > > > > >

Hi Lyn -   Wherabouts is this is please?     Kind Regards Roy --- On Thu, 10/9/09, Lyn Boothman <annys@boothman27.fsnet.co.uk> wrote: From: Lyn Boothman <annys@boothman27.fsnet.co.uk> Subject: [OEL] Irish Pay To: OLD-ENGLISH@rootsweb.com Date: Thursday, 10 September, 2009, 11:38 PM Can anyone help? I am working my way through some poor relief payments from 1800 and it's a bit of a scrawl but all very straightforward, just like loads of others, until I got to 'To 5 weeks Irish pay to Barker's wife, 8d a week' 3s 4d This is the first time I've come across the term 'Irish pay'. I tried Google but of course you get Irish pay rises, the Irish pay for this and that and the other etc ... The Overseers are regularly paying for to support the families of men in the Militia, so could Barker be in Ireland in the militia? Or is there some other meaning of 'Irish pay' that someone knows about. It's very clear on the page so I don't think it's a misreading. Lyn B ==================================== WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH  ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message