Keith: The 19th century registration districts were used for both BMDs and censuses, and were initially identical with the Poor Law Unions. So I suspect this means that only 180 people named Griffiths were not shown for one reason or another under one of the standard registration distrcits. That said, I can't off the top think where the others might be. Possibly people on canal boats, or in ports? Maybe even the army, although that was treated differently in various censuses. Best wishes Paul 2009/11/13 Keith Griffiths <griffiths370@btinternet.com> > The 19th century British Surname Atlas on CD gives the number of each > surname found in the 1881 census. > > When interrogating it I found that for my surname Griffiths there were > 49,010 entries for Great Britain. > > When I switch to the Poor Law Union Listing, I found that 48,831 of the > Griffiths surname were listed under that heading. > > On the face of things this means that only 180 people named Griffiths were > not in workhouses. > > Can this be right? > > I'm sure there is a simple answer but my enquiries of Archer Software > > http://www.archersoftware.co.uk/about.htm > > who produced the data have not yet replied to my email. > > If I get a reply I'll post it on. > ~~ > Keith Griffiths > Elmsted, Kent > > > > > ==================================== > WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/<http://homepages.rootsweb.com/%7Eoel/> > ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

From: Keith Griffiths <<The 19th century British Surname Atlas on CD gives the number of each surname found in the 1881 census. When interrogating it I found that for my surname Griffiths there were 49,010 entries for Great Britain. When I switch to the Poor Law Union Listing, I found that 48,831 of the Griffiths surname were listed under that heading. On the face of things this means that only 180 people named Griffiths were not in workhouses. Can this be right?>> Hello Keith, The answer is that there were 49,010 Griffiths in England/Wales and Scotland, but only 48,831 of them in England/Wales alone (without Scotland) - the missing 180 were in Scotland. The Poor Law Union option is not a list of people in workhouses - it is everybody on the census grouped by Union, rather than by County. The Scottish data cannot be grouped by Union, so is excluded in that option. If you look at the accompanying distribution map to the right all will become clear. The Surname Atlas CD is an excellent tool, isn't it? (And also an excellent toy - when I'm bored I often play around with it for a bit.) Matt Tompkins

The 19th century British Surname Atlas on CD gives the number of each surname found in the 1881 census. When interrogating it I found that for my surname Griffiths there were 49,010 entries for Great Britain. When I switch to the Poor Law Union Listing, I found that 48,831 of the Griffiths surname were listed under that heading. On the face of things this means that only 180 people named Griffiths were not in workhouses. Can this be right? I'm sure there is a simple answer but my enquiries of Archer Software http://www.archersoftware.co.uk/about.htm who produced the data have not yet replied to my email. If I get a reply I'll post it on. ~~ Keith Griffiths Elmsted, Kent

Dear Alejandro and Polly Do either of you subscribe to the East of London Family History Society? It's well worth doing this if you are looking into East End history. They have a web site. Audrey Lee ----- Original Message ----- From: <AMilb36287@aol.com> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 7:54 PM Subject: [OEL] MENJ and MEOJ in 1813 Parish Register >A book of marriage banns of the church of St. Dunstan and All Saints, > Tower Hamlets, London, in 1813, has these acronyms after the name of the > husbands in several entries - not for all of them. > > Any ideas? > > Thank you! > > Alejandro Milberg > Boston, Mass. > > > ==================================== > WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > -- > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.12.5/147 - Release Date: 24/10/2005 > >

Mile End New Town and Mile End Old Town. Polly ----- Original Message ----- From: <AMilb36287@aol.com> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 7:54 PM Subject: [OEL] MENJ and MEOJ in 1813 Parish Register A book of marriage banns of the church of St. Dunstan and All Saints, Tower Hamlets, London, in 1813, has these acronyms after the name of the husbands in several entries - not for all of them. Any ideas? Thank you! Alejandro Milberg Boston, Mass. ==================================== WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

A book of marriage banns of the church of St. Dunstan and All Saints, Tower Hamlets, London, in 1813, has these acronyms after the name of the husbands in several entries - not for all of them. Any ideas? Thank you! Alejandro Milberg Boston, Mass.

This message from Eve was intended for the list but didn't appear. Do not reply to me as I'm only forwarding it. Judith Werner Salt Lake City, Utah, USA Administrator, OLD-ENGLISH http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ |> I am very sorry to bother everyone again but ran into a brick wall | > with the surname Nanskelly.... | > | > I have been looking at documents for a Nanskelly family in Cornwall. | > The name is there before 1300. John and Thomas Nanskelly, Nanskylly, | > Nanskilli, etc..... In the 1400's there is John, Henry and Richard. | > One John Nanskelly and his son served in Parliment in the 1400's. | > There is also one document (that I can't read but see a snippet of it | > on google) for a Thomas Acton otherwise Thomas Nanskylly. There is a | > will recorded in 1509 (which I also have not seen) for John Nanskylly. | > After that I don't see this as a surname, just as a place name in | > Cornwall, maybe in 4 locations. The earliest records are for Thomas | > de Nanskelly, then John Nanskelly involved with both of those is John | > Jaan (Jane, Janna) of Nanskelly. | Presumably Nanskelly was his location name and when he/they moved away, they either took another location name. or reverted. in Thomas's case, to Acton. I do know that the name Nan(s)carrow has persisted to the present day (at least in one antique dealer), and Nan/s/c/evill is more frequent.

Eve, Thank You! I did look at the Nanscevill family but decided they probably were not the same, as they were there earlier, also and in a different area. I am thinking they changed the name, it appears they had all moved to Helston (Heleston, Helestonburg) and John Nanskelly was mayor there, so maybe they ended up dropping Nanskelly shortly after that. Thanks again, Renee ----- Original Message ----- From: <eve@varneys.org.uk> To: "Dennis" <dennis.newman@cox.net>; "Dennis" <dennis.newman@cox.net>; <old-english-bounces@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2009 12:59 PM Subject: Re: [OEL] English - Cornwall Surname >> I am very sorry to bother everyone again but ran into a brick wall >> with the surname Nanskelly.... >> >> I have been looking at documents for a Nanskelly family in Cornwall. >> The name is there before 1300. John and Thomas Nanskelly, Nanskylly, >> Nanskilli, etc..... In the 1400's there is John, Henry and Richard. >> One John Nanskelly and his son served in Parliment in the 1400's. >> There is also one document (that I can't read but see a snippet of it >> on google) for a Thomas Acton otherwise Thomas Nanskylly. There is a >> will recorded in 1509 (which I also have not seen) for John Nanskylly. >> After that I don't see this as a surname, just as a place name in >> Cornwall, maybe in 4 locations. The earliest records are for Thomas >> de Nanskelly, then John Nanskelly involved with both of those is John >> Jaan (Jane, Janna) of Nanskelly. > > Presumably Nanskelly was his location name and when he/they > moved away, they either took another location name. or reverted. in > Thomas's case, to Acton. > I do know that the name Nan(s)carrow has persisted to the present > day (at least in one antique dealer), and Nan/s/c/evill is more frequent. >

Thank You Matt, I do have the Jane entries from TL Stoate's book. I'll have to remember where I had found that book. I appreciate you always taking to time to share your knowledge. Renee ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tompkins, M.L.L." <mllt1@leicester.ac.uk> To: <OLD-ENGLISH@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 6:07 PM Subject: Re: [OEL] English - Cornwall Surname > Hello again, Renee. > > The most likely explanation for the disappearance of the surname Nanskelly > in the early sixteenth century is that the family just died out - this did > happen, especially with surnames derived from small places. You could > quite easily check whether it really did disappear, if you have access to > a good reference library - a man called TL Stoate transcribed and > published quite a few 16C and 17C taxation records from Cornwall and > Devon, starting, if I remember correctly, with the 1522 Military Survey > and ending with one of the Hearth Taxes of the 1660s and 1670s, and taking > in several subsidies and muster rolls, and the Protestation Oath rolls, > along the way. If the surname did survive in the southwest into those > centuries then it would surely pop up in at least one of those sources - > if it doesn't appear in any of them then it surely died out. (Unless it > moved away and established itself somewhere outside those two counties.) > > An alternative explanation might be that the family just stopped using > Nanskelly as its surname. Prior to the 16th and 17th centuries Cornish > surnames developed differently from English ones. Basically they became > hereditary much later than in south eastern England, so that prior to > about 1500 many of the individuals you find in records would have been > using unstable, non-hereditary by-names which were not continued by their > children. Surnames from place of residence were especially unstable > because there was a cultural expectation that a man ought to be surnamed > after his place of residence, and should change his surname whenever he > changed his residence. This meant that someone who moved to Nanskelly > would be likely to adopt it as his surname in substitution for whatever he > had been using before, and then drop it when he moved away, while the > person who replaced him would adopt it in his turn - Thomas Acton > otherwise Thomas Nanskylly may have been such a man. There i! > s a good discussion of this in the introduction to Oliver Padel's and > Harold Fox's book 'The Cornish lands of the Arundells of Lanherne, > fourteenth to sixteenth centuries' (Devon & Cornwall Record Society > Publications, ns, 41, 2000). > > Thus the various 13-15C Nanskellys you have found may not all have been > related to each other, but may simply have been successive inhabitants of > Nanskelly. > > Matt Tompkins > > ________________________________________ > From: old-english-bounces@rootsweb.com [old-english-bounces@rootsweb.com] > On Behalf Of Dennis [dennis.newman@cox.net] > Sent: 28 October 2009 19:41 > To: OLD-ENGLISH@rootsweb.com > Subject: [OEL] English - Cornwall Surname > > I am very sorry to bother everyone again but ran into a brick wall with > the surname Nanskelly.... > > I have been looking at documents for a Nanskelly family in Cornwall. The > name is there before 1300. John and Thomas Nanskelly, Nanskylly, > Nanskilli, etc..... In the 1400's there is John, Henry and Richard. One > John Nanskelly and his son served in Parliment in the 1400's. There is > also one document (that I can't read but see a snippet of it on google) > for a Thomas Acton otherwise Thomas Nanskylly. There is a will recorded > in 1509 (which I also have not seen) for John Nanskylly. After that I > don't see this as a surname, just as a place name in Cornwall, maybe in 4 > locations. The earliest records are for Thomas de Nanskelly, then John > Nanskelly involved with both of those is John Jaan (Jane, Janna) of > Nanskelly. > > John Nanskylly is mentioned once that I've found as "Lord of Nanskylly". > I believe the Jane family of Cornwall was kin to him, they appear on > several documents together spanning a 100 years time, the last I've found > being this one: > 1423 - Indenture being a feooffemtn by John Nanskelly for the term of his > life to Edward Burnebiry, Master John Burnebiry, parson of the of > Ekysbourne, and Nicholas Carvargh, chaplain, of all his lands, & c. and > services of tenants in Nanskelly, Penhale, Oddewode, Tregena, Tregeny, > Tre...ryk, Bodmyn, Grauntpont and Strete Newham, by the rent of a grain of > corn at Michaelmas; with remainder to John his eldest son and Richard his > son succesively in tail, with remainder to Lavina and Joan his daughter, > in tail, with remainder to Edward Burnebiry in tail, with remainder to > Joan wife of John Oppy of Grauntbount in tail, with remainder to John > Jaan, son of Stephen Jaan of Penmyne in tail, with reversion in default to > his own right heirs. Witnesses - John Tretherf and Ralph Trenewith, > esquires, Stephen Boswydel, Ralph Tredynan. > > As I said after the 1509 will, I see no Nanskelly's or any form I > recognize again. I believe the property they had in "Nanskelly" was > Nankilly in Ladock, as other place names mentioned in the documents are > areas surrounding that, even though I've seen some say it is Lankelly near > Fowey and Nankilly near St Columb. > > But what I am wondering is if anyone has a suggestion as to what the name > may have become. I don't see the Acton surname in any documents > pertaining to this land or around this area. > > I'd appreciate any suggestions, > > Renee Newman > > > > > ==================================== > WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ==================================== > WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

You might like to know: The National Library of Wales has placed over 190,000 Welsh wills on line, free to view at http://cat.llgc.org.uk/cgi-bin/gw/chameleon?skin=profeb&lng=en cheers, Judith Werner Salt Lake City, Utah, USA Administrator, OLD-ENGLISH http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/

Hello again, Renee. The most likely explanation for the disappearance of the surname Nanskelly in the early sixteenth century is that the family just died out - this did happen, especially with surnames derived from small places. You could quite easily check whether it really did disappear, if you have access to a good reference library - a man called TL Stoate transcribed and published quite a few 16C and 17C taxation records from Cornwall and Devon, starting, if I remember correctly, with the 1522 Military Survey and ending with one of the Hearth Taxes of the 1660s and 1670s, and taking in several subsidies and muster rolls, and the Protestation Oath rolls, along the way. If the surname did survive in the southwest into those centuries then it would surely pop up in at least one of those sources - if it doesn't appear in any of them then it surely died out. (Unless it moved away and established itself somewhere outside those two counties.) An alternative explanation might be that the family just stopped using Nanskelly as its surname. Prior to the 16th and 17th centuries Cornish surnames developed differently from English ones. Basically they became hereditary much later than in south eastern England, so that prior to about 1500 many of the individuals you find in records would have been using unstable, non-hereditary by-names which were not continued by their children. Surnames from place of residence were especially unstable because there was a cultural expectation that a man ought to be surnamed after his place of residence, and should change his surname whenever he changed his residence. This meant that someone who moved to Nanskelly would be likely to adopt it as his surname in substitution for whatever he had been using before, and then drop it when he moved away, while the person who replaced him would adopt it in his turn - Thomas Acton otherwise Thomas Nanskylly may have been such a man. There i! s a good discussion of this in the introduction to Oliver Padel's and Harold Fox's book 'The Cornish lands of the Arundells of Lanherne, fourteenth to sixteenth centuries' (Devon & Cornwall Record Society Publications, ns, 41, 2000). Thus the various 13-15C Nanskellys you have found may not all have been related to each other, but may simply have been successive inhabitants of Nanskelly. Matt Tompkins ________________________________________ From: old-english-bounces@rootsweb.com [old-english-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Dennis [dennis.newman@cox.net] Sent: 28 October 2009 19:41 To: OLD-ENGLISH@rootsweb.com Subject: [OEL] English - Cornwall Surname I am very sorry to bother everyone again but ran into a brick wall with the surname Nanskelly.... I have been looking at documents for a Nanskelly family in Cornwall. The name is there before 1300. John and Thomas Nanskelly, Nanskylly, Nanskilli, etc..... In the 1400's there is John, Henry and Richard. One John Nanskelly and his son served in Parliment in the 1400's. There is also one document (that I can't read but see a snippet of it on google) for a Thomas Acton otherwise Thomas Nanskylly. There is a will recorded in 1509 (which I also have not seen) for John Nanskylly. After that I don't see this as a surname, just as a place name in Cornwall, maybe in 4 locations. The earliest records are for Thomas de Nanskelly, then John Nanskelly involved with both of those is John Jaan (Jane, Janna) of Nanskelly. John Nanskylly is mentioned once that I've found as "Lord of Nanskylly". I believe the Jane family of Cornwall was kin to him, they appear on several documents together spanning a 100 years time, the last I've found being this one: 1423 - Indenture being a feooffemtn by John Nanskelly for the term of his life to Edward Burnebiry, Master John Burnebiry, parson of the of Ekysbourne, and Nicholas Carvargh, chaplain, of all his lands, & c. and services of tenants in Nanskelly, Penhale, Oddewode, Tregena, Tregeny, Tre...ryk, Bodmyn, Grauntpont and Strete Newham, by the rent of a grain of corn at Michaelmas; with remainder to John his eldest son and Richard his son succesively in tail, with remainder to Lavina and Joan his daughter, in tail, with remainder to Edward Burnebiry in tail, with remainder to Joan wife of John Oppy of Grauntbount in tail, with remainder to John Jaan, son of Stephen Jaan of Penmyne in tail, with reversion in default to his own right heirs. Witnesses - John Tretherf and Ralph Trenewith, esquires, Stephen Boswydel, Ralph Tredynan. As I said after the 1509 will, I see no Nanskelly's or any form I recognize again. I believe the property they had in "Nanskelly" was Nankilly in Ladock, as other place names mentioned in the documents are areas surrounding that, even though I've seen some say it is Lankelly near Fowey and Nankilly near St Columb. But what I am wondering is if anyone has a suggestion as to what the name may have become. I don't see the Acton surname in any documents pertaining to this land or around this area. I'd appreciate any suggestions, Renee Newman ==================================== WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Good Evening Renee - I think you may have answered your own question, because many surnames evolved from the names of places in just such a manner as you have set out. I copy below an abstract from: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L Archives Item #4: Reference: AR/1/849 Creation dates: 1488, 15th Mar Scope and Content (3 Hen VII); at Tresytheny Gift (feoffment by trustees) in fee tail John Carmynow, esquire, Nicholas Lowre and William Upton = (1)-(3) Joan who was wife of Walter Colbroke = (4) (1)-(3) to (4), their messuages, lands, tenements, rents, reversions and services in Tresytheny, Tregennow, Trelyan, Seynt Austell, Treforan, Coesgaran, Treguwe, Bossoghan Mur, Padystowe and Wytheell [sic], together with the rents and services of all their free tenants in Trepydanan, Tregurra, Nanskelly, Tregaswyth, Trevareyn, Trethyas and Tregenytha; all which they lately had by gift and feoffment of (4). For (4) to hold for term of her life, with no accusation of waste, of the chief lords of the fees, by rents and services due and accustomed.   How the piece of land involved was named is anyone's guess, but I will try to find something from a couple of sources I have access to in the morning.   Kind Regards Roy   http://www.bristolgrenadiers.coxresearcher.com/index.htm   http://www.coxresearcher.com/index.htm ________________________________ From: Dennis <dennis.newman@cox.net> To: OLD-ENGLISH@rootsweb.com Sent: Wednesday, 28 October, 2009 19:41:04 Subject: [OEL] English - Cornwall Surname I am very sorry to bother everyone again but ran into a brick wall with the surname Nanskelly.... I have been looking at documents for a Nanskelly family in Cornwall.  The name is there before 1300.  John and Thomas Nanskelly, Nanskylly, Nanskilli, etc.....  In the 1400's there is John, Henry and Richard. One John Nanskelly and his son served in Parliment in the 1400's.  There is also one document (that I can't read but see a snippet of it on google) for a Thomas Acton otherwise Thomas Nanskylly.  There is a will recorded in 1509 (which I also have not seen) for John Nanskylly.  After that I don't see this as a surname, just as a place name in Cornwall, maybe in 4 locations.  The earliest records are for Thomas de Nanskelly, then John Nanskelly involved with both of those is John Jaan (Jane, Janna) of Nanskelly. John Nanskylly is mentioned once that I've found as "Lord of Nanskylly".  I believe the Jane family of Cornwall was kin to him, they appear on several documents together spanning a 100 years time, the last I've found being this one: 1423 - Indenture being a feooffemtn by John Nanskelly for the term of his life to Edward Burnebiry, Master John Burnebiry, parson of the of Ekysbourne, and Nicholas Carvargh, chaplain, of all his lands, & c. and services of tenants in Nanskelly, Penhale, Oddewode, Tregena, Tregeny, Tre...ryk, Bodmyn, Grauntpont and Strete Newham, by the rent of a grain of corn at Michaelmas; with remainder to John his eldest son and Richard his son succesively in tail, with remainder to Lavina and Joan his daughter, in tail, with remainder to Edward Burnebiry in tail, with remainder to Joan wife of John Oppy of Grauntbount in tail, with remainder to John Jaan, son of Stephen Jaan of Penmyne in tail, with reversion in default to his own right heirs. Witnesses - John Tretherf and Ralph Trenewith, esquires, Stephen Boswydel, Ralph Tredynan. As I said after the 1509 will, I see no Nanskelly's or any form I recognize again.  I believe the property they had in "Nanskelly" was Nankilly in Ladock, as other place names mentioned in the documents are areas surrounding that, even though I've seen some say it is Lankelly near Fowey and Nankilly near St Columb. But what I am wondering is if anyone has a suggestion as to what the name may have become.  I don't see the Acton surname in any documents pertaining to this land or around this area. I'd appreciate any suggestions,  Renee Newman     ==================================== WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH  ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

There was a big lawsuit between the Nanskelly's and Carmynow family involving Nanaskelly and Penhale. If I remember correctly Nicholas Carmynow and John Nanskelly, could have been Richard Nanskelly, though. The king had several people involved arrested until he could figure out the situation. I figure the name came from the place Nanskelly, just can't imagine how records end so abruptly. Thanks, Renee ----- Original Message ----- From: "ROY COX" <roy.cox@btinternet.com> To: <OLD-ENGLISH@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 3:44 PM Subject: Re: [OEL] English - Cornwall Surname Good Evening Renee - I think you may have answered your own question, because many surnames evolved from the names of places in just such a manner as you have set out. I copy below an abstract from: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L Archives Item #4: Reference: AR/1/849 Creation dates: 1488, 15th Mar Scope and Content (3 Hen VII); at Tresytheny Gift (feoffment by trustees) in fee tail John Carmynow, esquire, Nicholas Lowre and William Upton = (1)-(3) Joan who was wife of Walter Colbroke = (4) (1)-(3) to (4), their messuages, lands, tenements, rents, reversions and services in Tresytheny, Tregennow, Trelyan, Seynt Austell, Treforan, Coesgaran, Treguwe, Bossoghan Mur, Padystowe and Wytheell [sic], together with the rents and services of all their free tenants in Trepydanan, Tregurra, Nanskelly, Tregaswyth, Trevareyn, Trethyas and Tregenytha; all which they lately had by gift and feoffment of (4). For (4) to hold for term of her life, with no accusation of waste, of the chief lords of the fees, by rents and services due and accustomed. How the piece of land involved was named is anyone's guess, but I will try to find something from a couple of sources I have access to in the morning. Kind Regards Roy http://www.bristolgrenadiers.coxresearcher.com/index.htm http://www.coxresearcher.com/index.htm ________________________________ From: Dennis <dennis.newman@cox.net> To: OLD-ENGLISH@rootsweb.com Sent: Wednesday, 28 October, 2009 19:41:04 Subject: [OEL] English - Cornwall Surname I am very sorry to bother everyone again but ran into a brick wall with the surname Nanskelly.... I have been looking at documents for a Nanskelly family in Cornwall. The name is there before 1300. John and Thomas Nanskelly, Nanskylly, Nanskilli, etc..... In the 1400's there is John, Henry and Richard. One John Nanskelly and his son served in Parliment in the 1400's. There is also one document (that I can't read but see a snippet of it on google) for a Thomas Acton otherwise Thomas Nanskylly. There is a will recorded in 1509 (which I also have not seen) for John Nanskylly. After that I don't see this as a surname, just as a place name in Cornwall, maybe in 4 locations. The earliest records are for Thomas de Nanskelly, then John Nanskelly involved with both of those is John Jaan (Jane, Janna) of Nanskelly. John Nanskylly is mentioned once that I've found as "Lord of Nanskylly". I believe the Jane family of Cornwall was kin to him, they appear on several documents together spanning a 100 years time, the last I've found being this one: 1423 - Indenture being a feooffemtn by John Nanskelly for the term of his life to Edward Burnebiry, Master John Burnebiry, parson of the of Ekysbourne, and Nicholas Carvargh, chaplain, of all his lands, & c. and services of tenants in Nanskelly, Penhale, Oddewode, Tregena, Tregeny, Tre...ryk, Bodmyn, Grauntpont and Strete Newham, by the rent of a grain of corn at Michaelmas; with remainder to John his eldest son and Richard his son succesively in tail, with remainder to Lavina and Joan his daughter, in tail, with remainder to Edward Burnebiry in tail, with remainder to Joan wife of John Oppy of Grauntbount in tail, with remainder to John Jaan, son of Stephen Jaan of Penmyne in tail, with reversion in default to his own right heirs. Witnesses - John Tretherf and Ralph Trenewith, esquires, Stephen Boswydel, Ralph Tredynan. As I said after the 1509 will, I see no Nanskelly's or any form I recognize again. I believe the property they had in "Nanskelly" was Nankilly in Ladock, as other place names mentioned in the documents are areas surrounding that, even though I've seen some say it is Lankelly near Fowey and Nankilly near St Columb. But what I am wondering is if anyone has a suggestion as to what the name may have become. I don't see the Acton surname in any documents pertaining to this land or around this area. I'd appreciate any suggestions, Renee Newman ==================================== WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ==================================== WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I am very sorry to bother everyone again but ran into a brick wall with the surname Nanskelly.... I have been looking at documents for a Nanskelly family in Cornwall. The name is there before 1300. John and Thomas Nanskelly, Nanskylly, Nanskilli, etc..... In the 1400's there is John, Henry and Richard. One John Nanskelly and his son served in Parliment in the 1400's. There is also one document (that I can't read but see a snippet of it on google) for a Thomas Acton otherwise Thomas Nanskylly. There is a will recorded in 1509 (which I also have not seen) for John Nanskylly. After that I don't see this as a surname, just as a place name in Cornwall, maybe in 4 locations. The earliest records are for Thomas de Nanskelly, then John Nanskelly involved with both of those is John Jaan (Jane, Janna) of Nanskelly. John Nanskylly is mentioned once that I've found as "Lord of Nanskylly". I believe the Jane family of Cornwall was kin to him, they appear on several documents together spanning a 100 years time, the last I've found being this one: 1423 - Indenture being a feooffemtn by John Nanskelly for the term of his life to Edward Burnebiry, Master John Burnebiry, parson of the of Ekysbourne, and Nicholas Carvargh, chaplain, of all his lands, & c. and services of tenants in Nanskelly, Penhale, Oddewode, Tregena, Tregeny, Tre...ryk, Bodmyn, Grauntpont and Strete Newham, by the rent of a grain of corn at Michaelmas; with remainder to John his eldest son and Richard his son succesively in tail, with remainder to Lavina and Joan his daughter, in tail, with remainder to Edward Burnebiry in tail, with remainder to Joan wife of John Oppy of Grauntbount in tail, with remainder to John Jaan, son of Stephen Jaan of Penmyne in tail, with reversion in default to his own right heirs. Witnesses - John Tretherf and Ralph Trenewith, esquires, Stephen Boswydel, Ralph Tredynan. As I said after the 1509 will, I see no Nanskelly's or any form I recognize again. I believe the property they had in "Nanskelly" was Nankilly in Ladock, as other place names mentioned in the documents are areas surrounding that, even though I've seen some say it is Lankelly near Fowey and Nankilly near St Columb. But what I am wondering is if anyone has a suggestion as to what the name may have become. I don't see the Acton surname in any documents pertaining to this land or around this area. I'd appreciate any suggestions, Renee Newman

I have a few names from a will that I can't quite get, if anyone would want to take a look. It is just two last names. Thanks, Renee

And just to throw in a wild card for interest, one of my ancestors had a two thousand year lease (from another family member) on land called Seale Fields in Surrey. This is mentioned in his will of 1669, though I don't know when the lease dated from. I was astounded when I read this and wondered if such a long term was at all common? Alwynne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tompkins, M.L.L." <mllt1@leicester.ac.uk> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2009 5:09 AM Subject: Re: [OEL] Leasehold? > <<NOW I understand how leaseholds work! Thanks to the very knowledgeable > and helpful people on this list, I now *get* the differences between > holding land in England and holding land in the U S. Very interesting > concepts. Obviously, it works, given that it has been in effect for many > centuries now. And I can see how a leasehold would be considered a > valuable bequest.>> > > > Umm, actually, Nancy, leaseholds are pretty much as common in the United > States as in England. There are differences in detail between the 2 > systems at the present time (just as there are between the systems of the > various states), but property is probably leased nearly as often in the US > as it is in England (the differences between the English and US systems > are minor compared to the differences between them both and landholding in > other, non-English-settled countries - including Scotland, whose property > law is very different from that of both the US and England!). And back in > 1775 the differences would have been even less - the property law > operating in each state was basically the English common law with various > changes of detail made by local statutes. > > You may perhaps have been mislead by the word 'leasehold' - it just means > land held by a lease, and 'lease' can comprehend a wide variety of forms > of tenancy (which may be known by other labels than 'lease'), ranging from > short-term contracts at a rack rent with no security of tenure to very > lengthy terms at very low rents with rights of renewal. Those towards the > latter end of the spectrum would have considerable capital value and would > indeed represent a valuable legacy. > > Matt Tompkins > > > ==================================== > WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi again I have attempted another page of this Court Record and now have a list of names and places which I have fairly successfully transcribed but I can't manage most of the 40 odd words in the header which are in Latin and would be interested to discover the significance of the list especially given its date in the middle of the Civil War. If there is anyone with a little time to spare I should be very grateful for some help and could e-mail the jpeg. Best wishes Barbara Internet Security tips and offers from Tiscali - http://www.tiscali.co.uk/security _______________________________________________________________________

<<From: Alwynne Mackie [mailto:alwynnem@melbpc.org.au] And just to throw in a wild card for interest, one of my ancestors had a two thousand year lease (from another family member) on land called Seale Fields in Surrey. This is mentioned in his will of 1669, though I don't know when the lease dated from. I was astounded when I read this and wondered if such a long term was at all common?>> Very lengthy terms like that were commonly used as conveyancing devices in family settlements and similar arrangements. They seldom lasted for very long - once the conveyancing purpose had been achieved they would disappear. The more common-or-garden occupational lease, granted for a rent (and sometimes also a premium) to someone who would actually occupy the land, was seldom for a term of more than 20 or 30 years (and could be as short as a few months or a year or two). Building leases, granted for a low ground rent and a substantial premium, were typically for 99 or 125 years - but anything longer would normally be a conveyancing device. Matt Tompkins

In a message dated 27/09/2009 06:55:52 GMT Daylight Time, alwynnem@melbpc.org.au writes: And just to throw in a wild card for interest, one of my ancestors had a two thousand year lease (from another family member) on land called Seale Fields in Surrey. This is mentioned in his will of 1669, though I don't know when the lease dated from. I was astounded when I read this and wondered if such a long term was at all common? Alwynne One thousand years was common - I don't think I have met two thousand though. Best wishes, Margaret McG

<<NOW I understand how leaseholds work! Thanks to the very knowledgeable and helpful people on this list, I now *get* the differences between holding land in England and holding land in the U S. Very interesting concepts. Obviously, it works, given that it has been in effect for many centuries now. And I can see how a leasehold would be considered a valuable bequest.>> Umm, actually, Nancy, leaseholds are pretty much as common in the United States as in England. There are differences in detail between the 2 systems at the present time (just as there are between the systems of the various states), but property is probably leased nearly as often in the US as it is in England (the differences between the English and US systems are minor compared to the differences between them both and landholding in other, non-English-settled countries - including Scotland, whose property law is very different from that of both the US and England!). And back in 1775 the differences would have been even less - the property law operating in each state was basically the English common law with various changes of detail made by local statutes. You may perhaps have been mislead by the word 'leasehold' - it just means land held by a lease, and 'lease' can comprehend a wide variety of forms of tenancy (which may be known by other labels than 'lease'), ranging from short-term contracts at a rack rent with no security of tenure to very lengthy terms at very low rents with rights of renewal. Those towards the latter end of the spectrum would have considerable capital value and would indeed represent a valuable legacy. Matt Tompkins