Ben Jonson wrote a poem in praise of a knight fallen in the battle of the Isle of Rhe in 1627. One of the words is incomprehensible to me and I need your help for a book. I'll quote just four lines for context: "That thou art all their valour, all thy spirit, And thine own greatness to increase thy merit, Than thou, I do not know a SHITER soul, Nor could I, had I all nature's roll." There are sixteen lines in total. The word is SHITER, whose meaning escapes me. It's doubtful that it is a typo. Gary

The vicar also had a small sum from each communicant over the age of sixteen. Everyone living in the parish was reckoned to be a communicant so at 6d. each (which the vicar of the parish of Glossop received in the mid 1600s) was quite considerable. Added to this was smoke penny, haypenny as well as every seventh hive (bees), besides those mentioned by Roy below. These 'small' tithes were also called the Easter Tithes as they were due in the parish church every Easter. The rector, in this case, was a lay rector and also lord of the manor. They were Catholics and the major baronetcy in the country, the Dukes of Norfolk (Howard is the family name). They received the great tithes of corn and hay. Of course, these tithes were very quickly commuted to cash payments. You can imagine the size of the farm necessary for the vicar if he were to receive, say, every seventh lamb borne that year, and year in year out, let alone all the other cattle and produce. Just what he would have done with smoke is demonstrated by its name, i.e. commuted from its inception. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roy" <roy.cox@btinternet.com> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, February 16, 2004 9:24 PM Subject: FW: [OEL] The Living? > Sorry List if this has appeared twice - first time I tried it was returned? > > > Kind Regards > > June & Roy > http://www.btinternet.com/~roy.cox/index.htm > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Roy [mailto:roy.cox@btinternet.com] > Sent: Monday, February 16, 2004 7:30 PM > To: 'OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com' > Subject: RE: [OEL] The Living? > > Good Evening Ann - > > Ah! Godney, not too far from my home at Burnham! > What a lively summing up of that ancient place. > > LIVING: > Is an age old term used by the Church of England for BENEFICE. > > BENEFICE: > This is an endowed church office, yielding an income to its holder. > > In other words, the Vicar's salary > > At first the incumbent gained his payment for his principle services to the > church by what "The Living" of the parish had to give. This was usually by > way of the tithe, although he did get extra payments for services rendered, > such as approving transcripts of the registers for onward transmission to > the Bishop [Hence Bishop's Transcripts], and performing ceremonies outside > the normal church services, as it is today of course. > > Tithes were in two classes - Great and Lesser - The great or Rectorial were > tithes of produce, from such things as grow out of the earth, such as corn; > and the small [lesser] or Vicarial were tithes of produce from such things > as are nourished on the earth, such as cattle, sheep, pigs, eggs, fruit Etc. > > There is a lot of interesting information on this subject contained in an > 1888 book on English Church History [if you can find one!] by Rev. C. Arthur > Lane - > > > Kind Regards > > June & Roy > http://www.btinternet.com/~roy.cox/index.htm > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ann Riley [mailto:ariley@mars.ark.com] > Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2004 6:29 AM > To: OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: [OEL] The Living? > > Hello List > Being from Canada I find I am not familiar with this term "The Living" I > have seen it referred to in other statements. Could someone explain please. > > E.g.: in this paragraph > "GODNEY, a hamlet in the parish of Meare, hundred of Glaston- Twelve- Hides, > county Somerset, 5 miles N.W. of Glastonbury, its post town. It is situated > on the river Brue. The manor, which consists of above 3,000 acres, was part > of the demesne of Glastonbury Abbey. The living is a perpetual curacy in the > diocese of Bath and Wells, value £55. The church, dedicated to the Holy > Trinity, was erected in 1838 upon the site of a more ancient edifice." From > The National Gazetteer of Great Britain and Ireland (1868) Transcribed by > Colin Hinson © 2003 > > Thanks, Ann > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > Going away for a while? > Don't forget to UNSUBSCRIBE! > OLD-ENGLISH-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > OLD-ENGLISH Web Page > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > >

Hello List Being from Canada I find I am not familiar with this term "The Living" I have seen it referred to in other statements. Could someone explain please. E.g.: in this paragraph "GODNEY, a hamlet in the parish of Meare, hundred of Glaston- Twelve- Hides, county Somerset, 5 miles N.W. of Glastonbury, its post town. It is situated on the river Brue. The manor, which consists of above 3,000 acres, was part of the demesne of Glastonbury Abbey. The living is a perpetual curacy in the diocese of Bath and Wells, value £55. The church, dedicated to the Holy Trinity, was erected in 1838 upon the site of a more ancient edifice." From The National Gazetteer of Great Britain and Ireland (1868) Transcribed by Colin Hinson © 2003 Thanks, Ann

Sorry List if this has appeared twice - first time I tried it was returned? Kind Regards June & Roy http://www.btinternet.com/~roy.cox/index.htm -----Original Message----- From: Roy [mailto:roy.cox@btinternet.com] Sent: Monday, February 16, 2004 7:30 PM To: 'OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com' Subject: RE: [OEL] The Living? Good Evening Ann - Ah! Godney, not too far from my home at Burnham! What a lively summing up of that ancient place. LIVING: Is an age old term used by the Church of England for BENEFICE. BENEFICE: This is an endowed church office, yielding an income to its holder. In other words, the Vicar's salary At first the incumbent gained his payment for his principle services to the church by what "The Living" of the parish had to give. This was usually by way of the tithe, although he did get extra payments for services rendered, such as approving transcripts of the registers for onward transmission to the Bishop [Hence Bishop's Transcripts], and performing ceremonies outside the normal church services, as it is today of course. Tithes were in two classes - Great and Lesser - The great or Rectorial were tithes of produce, from such things as grow out of the earth, such as corn; and the small [lesser] or Vicarial were tithes of produce from such things as are nourished on the earth, such as cattle, sheep, pigs, eggs, fruit Etc. There is a lot of interesting information on this subject contained in an 1888 book on English Church History [if you can find one!] by Rev. C. Arthur Lane - Kind Regards June & Roy http://www.btinternet.com/~roy.cox/index.htm -----Original Message----- From: Ann Riley [mailto:ariley@mars.ark.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2004 6:29 AM To: OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [OEL] The Living? Hello List Being from Canada I find I am not familiar with this term "The Living" I have seen it referred to in other statements. Could someone explain please. E.g.: in this paragraph "GODNEY, a hamlet in the parish of Meare, hundred of Glaston- Twelve- Hides, county Somerset, 5 miles N.W. of Glastonbury, its post town. It is situated on the river Brue. The manor, which consists of above 3,000 acres, was part of the demesne of Glastonbury Abbey. The living is a perpetual curacy in the diocese of Bath and Wells, value £55. The church, dedicated to the Holy Trinity, was erected in 1838 upon the site of a more ancient edifice." From The National Gazetteer of Great Britain and Ireland (1868) Transcribed by Colin Hinson © 2003 Thanks, Ann ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== Going away for a while? Don't forget to UNSUBSCRIBE! OLD-ENGLISH-L-request@rootsweb.com

Ann 'The living' means the position of the vicar or rector and his income or property - it's the position of being rector of parish X or vicar of parish Y with being the person who receives the income related - from tithes or land rents or from the rectory if that is a lay one - I think we had a discussion about lay rectories not very long ago so searching the archives should give you that. So in Jane Austen or novels of the 19th century you get conversation about whether a clergyman has a 'rich living' or 'good living' etc which means how well off does their postion make them. Parishes where the living was a perpetual curacy usually meant the incumbent was poor because someone else is taking the bulk of the income and paying a curate to provide 'the cure' - performing the rites etc of Christianity. Lyn B

Thanks to all it seems there is little i can deduce other than the groom "of Camberwell " must have had a job that took him to Rickmansworth regularly in 1797 to meet his bride of this parish To early for railway or canal and given the hilly terrain not an obvious coaching rout Hmmmm! Chris Glass RUISLIP

In message <002801c3f374$38da6aa0$526b883e@escom>, "J.C.Christopher Glass" <chrisx@jccglass.fsnet.co.uk> writes >Does anyone have an idea how long you had to resided in the parish >to become of this parish at your wedding >or rather should i say how long and not be of the parish It is a little complicated. If the clergyman was careless and permissive, then 3 weeks. If he was stricter, then a man (especially) would need to have gained a settlement in the parish (by working a full year on contract, serving a full apprenticeship, renting a house and or land worth 10 pounds annually, or serving a parish office for a year)_ > On the whole, a man with less than the second sort of qulification is likely to be referred to as a sojourner - he is living in the parish but 'not one of us' as regards being entitled to poor relief. Women getting married were more likely to be described as 'of this parish' on flimsier evidence of a short stay, since once they were wed, it was the husband's settlement which mattered anyway. -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

Hello, It is probably "defender of the Faith". This title, or rather, its Latin version, "fidei defensor", is a title belonging to the sovereign of Great Britain. It was originally conferred by pope Leo X on King Henry VIII for the work he wrote against the reformer, Martin Luther. It was afterwards confirmed by Clement VII. On Henry's suppression of the monasteries, the pope of Rome deprived him of this title. Parliament, however, confirmed the title, and it has ever since been used by British monarchs. However, I am not sure what "Amonge Soul)" could mean. Are you sure it is part of the description of George II, or could it be the beginning of the next part of the will? David Lamb (Paignton, Devon, UK) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marg Morse" <margmorse@smartchat.net.au> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, February 14, 2004 1:52 AM Subject: [OEL] help needed > Hi All, > In a will dated 1732 I have " > In the sixth year of the Reign of our Sovereign King George the second > of Great Britain , France and Ireland and King defender of the > (looks like)of the Haity ( is the h a P there?) Amonge Soul) > any ideas welcome please. > Cheers > Marg > > ______________________________

Chris Ditto, no time at all, as far as I can see - just that you were living there that day or week. Lyn B

----- Original Message ----- From: "J.C.Christopher Glass" <chrisx@jccglass.fsnet.co.uk> [Does anyone have an idea how long you had to resided in the parish to become of this parish at your wedding or rather should i say how long and not be of the parish] I think it depended a lot on how much the local clergy wanted to look into things. I have a pair of ancestors from Haslingden in Lancashire - They were definitely living there in 1805. That year they travelled 5 miles down the road to Bury to get married and were recorded as being otp. The same day, they had their baby son baptised at Haslingden (presumably after the marriage so he could be recorded with his dad's surname). I know of other cases where the bride and/or groom was described as 'of this parish' (the parents' home parish) in marriage after banns - yet I can show that the neither had not lived there for several years. Geoffers Charlbury, Oxfordshire

Does anyone have an idea how long you had to resided in the parish to become of this parish at your wedding or rather should i say how long and not be of the parish chris glass ruislip uk

Hi All, In a will dated 1732 I have " In the sixth year of the Reign of our Sovereign King George the second of Great Britain , France and Ireland and King defender of the (looks like)of the Haity ( is the h a P there?) Amonge Soul) any ideas welcome please. Cheers Marg

I've uploaded the Tew inventory with a generally-agreed-but-not-conclusive solution. If anyone would like to take a fresh look and comment, please do. We never did figure out what 'barage' sheep were, if that what it says. http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/unsolved32.html I'll update the Pollett documents next. Got a few more to put up, too. Yes, I know -- I said that last time, but I'm determined to catch up today. Judith Werner Salt Lake City, Utah, USA Administrator, OLD-ENGLISH-L http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/

Good Morning - It is "Defender of the Faith" Kind Regards June & Roy http://www.btinternet.com/~roy.cox/index.htm -----Original Message----- From: Marg Morse [mailto:margmorse@smartchat.net.au] Sent: Saturday, February 14, 2004 1:53 AM To: OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [OEL] help needed Hi All, In a will dated 1732 I have " In the sixth year of the Reign of our Sovereign King George the second of Great Britain , France and Ireland and King defender of the (looks like)of the Haity ( is the h a P there?) Amonge Soul) any ideas welcome please. Cheers Marg ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== To UNSUBSCRIBE from list mode -- Send the one word UNSUBSCRIBE to OLD-ENGLISH-L-request@rootsweb.com

Hi Al I'm wondering if there may be a few wills or inventories around that he might have either witnessed or written as he was literate and quite a few of his neighbours wouldn't have been. He may have been the 'scribe' of some of the documents written at the time he was living in that particular place. A trawl through these documents in the days before he was famous may turn up trumps in identifying his handwriting. You can often tell by the signature of the witnesses which one of them wrote the main body of the document. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: <acunniff@abn-corp.com> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, February 13, 2004 11:43 AM Subject: [OEL] Shakespeare's handwriting > Seeing all these posts about Shakespeare's religion has brought me > out of the woodwork, because Shakespeare is one of my special > interests, and I'm gathering information for what could one day be a > book. My focus is on what can be learned about the man and his life > through his handwriting, which in fact is why I joined this list more than > a year ago. > > The "accepted" view is that the only examples of Shakespeare's > handwriting that we have are six signatures, on various legal > documents. However, there are about 3 pages from a play manuscript > which are strongly suspected of being in his hand as well. > > I (and a few others) believe that that are other documents in > Shakespeare's hand right under our noses, but to date no one has > done a great job of building that case. I had intended to make a few > contacts via this list to bounce some ideas off now and then and to > offer opinions on letters and legal documents I'd like to compare > against other samples. > > If this sounds like something that appeals to you, if you're highly skilled > at reading the Secretary hand, if you've got a good eye for comparing > samples and you've got some experience building a case for or > against the idea that two pieces are by the same hand, drop a line > sometime and we may correspond on a few points now and then! > > Thanks, > Al Cunniff > Baltimore, Maryland > USA > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > mail2web - Check your email from the web at > http://mail2web.com/ . > > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > OLD-ENGLISH Web Page > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > >

Audrey: You're closer to the target than you may realize...how about Shakespeare's own will? I am not alone in thinking that Shakespeare drafted his own will. There are numerous reasons for suggesting this which I won't go into here, but I believe it makes for a compelling case. In addition, there is a three-page section of autograph manuscript from the play The Book of Sir Thomas More which was studied by a number of respected paleographers in the early 1900s. They concluded that this fragment is quite likely to be in Shakespeare's hand. In addition, there are some other public documents that could be studied and compared. Audrey, you may also be closer than you think in your assumption that Shakespeare was a scribe of some sort. To some paleographers his handwriting, abbreviations and other clues indicate he had some experience as a legal scribe. His plays certainly show in-depth knowledge of the law of his day, and he counted many lawyers and even a Master of Chancery among his friends. I'd like to see someone compare the hand of the will to the hand of the Sir Thomas More fragment, for starters. If anyone has ideas on who might be good at this I'd be interested in hearing what you suggest. -Al Cunniff on 2/13/04 2:09 PM, norman.lee1 at norman.lee1@virgin.net wrote: > Hi Al > > I'm wondering if there may be a few wills or inventories around that he > might have either witnessed or written as he was literate and quite a few of > his neighbours wouldn't have been. He may have been the 'scribe' of some of > the documents written at the time he was living in that particular place. A > trawl through these documents in the days before he was famous may turn up > trumps in identifying his handwriting. You can often tell by the signature > of the witnesses which one of them wrote the main body of the document. > > Audrey > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <acunniff@abn-corp.com> > To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Friday, February 13, 2004 11:43 AM > Subject: [OEL] Shakespeare's handwriting > > >> Seeing all these posts about Shakespeare's religion has brought me >> out of the woodwork, because Shakespeare is one of my special >> interests, and I'm gathering information for what could one day be a >> book. My focus is on what can be learned about the man and his life >> through his handwriting, which in fact is why I joined this list more than >> a year ago. >> >> The "accepted" view is that the only examples of Shakespeare's >> handwriting that we have are six signatures, on various legal >> documents. However, there are about 3 pages from a play manuscript >> which are strongly suspected of being in his hand as well. >> >> I (and a few others) believe that that are other documents in >> Shakespeare's hand right under our noses, but to date no one has >> done a great job of building that case. I had intended to make a few >> contacts via this list to bounce some ideas off now and then and to >> offer opinions on letters and legal documents I'd like to compare >> against other samples. >> >> If this sounds like something that appeals to you, if you're highly > skilled >> at reading the Secretary hand, if you've got a good eye for comparing >> samples and you've got some experience building a case for or >> against the idea that two pieces are by the same hand, drop a line >> sometime and we may correspond on a few points now and then! >> >> Thanks, >> Al Cunniff >> Baltimore, Maryland >> USA

Seeing all these posts about Shakespeare's religion has brought me out of the woodwork, because Shakespeare is one of my special interests, and I'm gathering information for what could one day be a book. My focus is on what can be learned about the man and his life through his handwriting, which in fact is why I joined this list more than a year ago. The "accepted" view is that the only examples of Shakespeare's handwriting that we have are six signatures, on various legal documents. However, there are about 3 pages from a play manuscript which are strongly suspected of being in his hand as well. I (and a few others) believe that that are other documents in Shakespeare's hand right under our noses, but to date no one has done a great job of building that case. I had intended to make a few contacts via this list to bounce some ideas off now and then and to offer opinions on letters and legal documents I'd like to compare against other samples. If this sounds like something that appeals to you, if you're highly skilled at reading the Secretary hand, if you've got a good eye for comparing samples and you've got some experience building a case for or against the idea that two pieces are by the same hand, drop a line sometime and we may correspond on a few points now and then! Thanks, Al Cunniff Baltimore, Maryland USA -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ .

In message <125.2aae61b8.2d5d2714@aol.com>, GaryIvoDe@aol.com writes >In the 1820's in Wales, marriages were by banns or by consent. >What is the difference? strictly, anyone could marry by banns, at any age. Persons under 21 needed the consent of father, widowed mother or guardian. A few people married by licence (with same requirement as to consent under 21.) -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

I appreciate the response. Turns out she was married by both banns and consent. Gary

For those who'd like more info on Shakespeare, his religion and history there is an informative website at http://www.pbs.org/shakespeare/players/player26.html. This site has some of the details of a series written and presented by Michael Wood. Given in the form of a "detective story, a documentary search, and a journey" the program "In Search of Shakespeare" is both informative and entertaining. Clicking on the " the Show" link in the top bar takes you to a page which both details the episode and gives the reader an opportunity to purchase VHS and DVD recordings of the the program. There are also links given to find out when the episodes may be available for viewing on specific PBS channels throughout the country. * Carla - Denne meldingen er sjekket for virus av Norton Anti-virus - This message was checked for virus by Norton Anti-virus