Hi Mary >>For quite some time now I have been involved with transcribing parish registers and bishop's transcripts. The advise I was given in the beginning was to trascribe everything as is.<< That is exactly right and should govern all you do. But like your "long s" which only *looks* like a modern "f" and in fact on close inspection can usually be seen to be missing a cross piece, the "ff" is the way that the capital "F" was written at that time and in that hand and so should therefore be transcribed as "F" and not "ff". HTH Polly (who has taught palaegraphy classes for Oxford University

I would like some advise please. For quite some time now I have been involved with transcribing parish registers and bishop's transcripts. The advise I was given in the beginning was to trascribe everything as is. (not the "s" which looks like "f" though. Consequently I have been writing Frances and February as they were originally written - ffrances and ffebruary. Now I am being told that I am putting in too many "f"s. So what do I do? Transcribe as it is written or leave off one of the "f"s? Regards..............Mary from Ottawa, Canada

Chris, It does say living on means - the other bit is a mark made by the people who compiled statistics from the census. Nuala ----- Original Message ----- From: "J.C.Christopher Glass" <chris@jccglass.fsnet.co.uk> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 12:09 AM Subject: [OEL] occupation > Hi can any one come up with an alternative to what seems > like it should read > "living on Means" > except to me it look more like Waerns > for mother elizabeth Dempster aged 75 > > CHRIS GLASS RUISLIP UK > > image at > http://www.geocities.com/jccglass/dempster.gif > > > > > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > OLD-ENGLISH Web Page > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > >

Hi can any one come up with an alternative to what seems like it should read "living on Means" except to me it look more like Waerns for mother elizabeth Dempster aged 75 CHRIS GLASS RUISLIP UK image at http://www.geocities.com/jccglass/dempster.gif

Hi Chris They had an independant income. Mary ----- Original Message ----- From: "J.C.Christopher Glass" <chris@jccglass.fsnet.co.uk> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2004 7:09 PM Subject: [OEL] occupation > Hi can any one come up with an alternative to what seems > like it should read > "living on Means" > except to me it look more like Waerns > for mother elizabeth Dempster aged 75 > > CHRIS GLASS RUISLIP UK > > image at > http://www.geocities.com/jccglass/dempster.gif > > > > > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > OLD-ENGLISH Web Page > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > >

Good Morning - Certainly is delightful and it shall be added to my definitions page. Might just view my next-door neighbours with a little more reverence now :-) Kind Regards June & Roy http://www.btinternet.com/~roy.cox/index.htm -----Original Message----- From: Eve McLaughlin [mailto:eve@varneys.demon.co.uk] Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2004 10:55 PM To: OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [OEL] Bible pages In message <000401c3f5c9$fad069a0$e7e20ad2@margmorse>, Marg Morse <margmorse@smartchat.net.au> writes >Good morning all, > I have been sent pages from a old family bible and along side the >Baptism entries there are three names with the word Gossips Could this >be sort of godparents, How delightful - it is the long obsolete word for god -sibs, god=relations or godparents. I have not seen this later than about 1790. > although mostly they were >grandparents of the babe. quite usual -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== OLD-ENGLISH Web Page http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/

In message <000001c3f5aa$8ba49390$e4d14d51@lynhome>, Lyn Boothman <annys@boothman27.fsnet.co.uk> writes > >Eve, I am sure you are correct where the custom is as you said, which >may be many places. However the large parish I know most well has, in >over 300 plus years of parish registers, with rectors and clerks both >very careful and precise and others rather laxer, not one use of the >word sojourner or anything having the same meaning. Brides and grooms >are either of Melford (Long Melford in Suffolk) I am judging by the entries in the many thousands of registers all over the country I have searched during the course of research. Long melford may have its own customs, but this would not apply to the wider context. >any link between how people are described in >the parish register and their settlement status. a careful clergyman would have to think of this. Melford was a fairly rich parish (till the early 1800s,) of course, -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

In message <000401c3f5c9$fad069a0$e7e20ad2@margmorse>, Marg Morse <margmorse@smartchat.net.au> writes >Good morning all, > I have been sent pages from a old family bible >and along side the Baptism entries >there are three names with the word Gossips >Could this be sort of godparents, How delightful - it is the long obsolete word for god -sibs, god=relations or godparents. I have not seen this later than about 1790. > although mostly they were >grandparents of the babe. quite usual -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

Hi Lyn It's a long time ago that I consulted our Easter Books and they have since moved residence. They used to be in Glossop Library about 20 minutes away. Now they're in Matlock an hour and three quarters distance where you have to book a visit in advance. No popping in to take a quick look. I thought that I might just have a note of it but as I was using them for another purpose at the time, I only recorded the stats necessary for my needs then, so I don't have any hard evidence. Next time I manage to go to Matlock, I'll take another look and pass on the info. I could do with having another look. It was around 25 years ago since I last saw them. However, even at 2d. per person, that could represent a fair amount of money over a large parish. Thanks for drawing it to my attention. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lyn Boothman" <annys@boothman27.fsnet.co.uk> To: "'norman.lee1'" <norman.lee1@virgin.net>; <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2004 11:39 PM Subject: RE: [OEL] The Living? > Audrey > Interesting that it was 6d for the Easter Offerings there, I have only > ever seen it as 2d anywhere else. Lyn B > > > >

Good afternoon Marg, Yes, gossip is an old term for godparent, or one who acts as sponsor at a baptism. From OE god = God, sib = akin, related. Source - OED. Liz in Melbourne On Wednesday, February 18, 2004 9:57 AM, Marg Morse [SMTP:margmorse@smartchat.net.au] wrote: > Good morning all, > I have been sent pages from a old family bible > and along side the Baptism entries > there are three names with the word Gossips > Could this be sort of godparents, although mostly they were > grandparents of the babe. > Thank you > Marg >

: Thanks to everyone for the help. : I have to unsubscribe as I have computer problems : Thanks again, Ann : :

Good morning all, I have been sent pages from a old family bible and along side the Baptism entries there are three names with the word Gossips Could this be sort of godparents, although mostly they were grandparents of the babe. Thank you Marg

Dear Lyn I'd have to check that one up. You're right - it does sound a lot. I'll do my homework a bit better and perhaps not get a D or F. I had 6d. in my mind's eye. I'll get back to you. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lyn Boothman" <annys@boothman27.fsnet.co.uk> To: "'norman.lee1'" <norman.lee1@virgin.net>; <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2004 11:39 PM Subject: RE: [OEL] The Living? > Audrey > Interesting that it was 6d for the Easter Offerings there, I have only > ever seen it as 2d anywhere else. Lyn B > > > >

It's got to be 'surer', hasn't it? Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: <GaryIvoDe@aol.com> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2004 10:35 PM Subject: [OEL] Ben Jonson Poem > Ben Jonson wrote a poem in praise of a knight fallen in the battle of the > Isle of Rhe > in 1627. One of the words is incomprehensible to me and I need your help for > a > book. I'll quote just four lines for context: > > "That thou art all their valour, all thy spirit, > And thine own greatness to increase thy merit, > Than thou, I do not know a SHITER soul, > Nor could I, had I all nature's roll." > > There are sixteen lines in total. The word is SHITER, whose meaning escapes > me. > It's doubtful that it is a typo. > > Gary > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > OLD-ENGLISH Web Page > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > >

Recently the custom was to leave a suitcase in the parish where you wished to get married - this was done for the necessary three weeks. That was how my parents were able to be married in Chelsea Old Church. We did it the "proper" way by getting a special licence, which involved my wife and father in law in a special visit to Dean's Yard in order to get it. But this wasn't straightforward because we were married in Guildford Cathedral which was not a parish church. Christopher Richards ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Prescott" <paul.prescott@toranean.freeserve.co.uk> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2004 11:00 PM Subject: Re: [OEL] of this parish > Eve: > > > >Does anyone have an idea how long you had to resided in the parish > > >to become of this parish at your wedding > > >or rather should i say how long and not be of the parish > > > It is a little complicated. > > If the clergyman was careless and permissive, then 3 weeks. > > If the clergyman was careless and permissive, and if the parish was in a > large city, then no time at all. I have ancestors from rural Worcestershire > who married at Birmingham St Martin in the 1830s without any apparent sign > of ever living there. Of course none of us can be sure at this distance, > and there may have been an aunt, cousin or friend with a convenient > accommodation address. > > More recently, I know that my own parents married without residence in > exactly this way in 1950 by giving an aunt's address as their own. Why? > Because they liked the church. > > Little is as it seems. > > Best wishes > > Paul Prescott > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.576 / Virus Database: 365 - Release Date: 30-01-2004 > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > OLD-ENGLISH Web Page > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > >

Audrey Interesting that it was 6d for the Easter Offerings there, I have only ever seen it as 2d anywhere else. Lyn B

Eve, I am sure you are correct where the custom is as you said, which may be many places. However the large parish I know most well has, in over 300 plus years of parish registers, with rectors and clerks both very careful and precise and others rather laxer, not one use of the word sojourner or anything having the same meaning. Brides and grooms are either of Melford (Long Melford in Suffolk) or they are of somewhere else, nothing else offered. I am sure this is local custom being continued by each clerk and or rector as they come along; there's certainly no evidence of any link between how people are described in the parish register and their settlement status. Lyn B

Eve: > >Does anyone have an idea how long you had to resided in the parish > >to become of this parish at your wedding > >or rather should i say how long and not be of the parish > It is a little complicated. > If the clergyman was careless and permissive, then 3 weeks. If the clergyman was careless and permissive, and if the parish was in a large city, then no time at all. I have ancestors from rural Worcestershire who married at Birmingham St Martin in the 1830s without any apparent sign of ever living there. Of course none of us can be sure at this distance, and there may have been an aunt, cousin or friend with a convenient accommodation address. More recently, I know that my own parents married without residence in exactly this way in 1950 by giving an aunt's address as their own. Why? Because they liked the church. Little is as it seems. Best wishes Paul Prescott --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.576 / Virus Database: 365 - Release Date: 30-01-2004

Another thought. If I remember rightly, the hierarchy went - rector, vicar, curate. The rector was responsible for paying the main stipend received by the vicar who was his 'standin', the word vicar stemming from vice, meaning deputy. The vicar, in his turn, was responsible for paying his curate/s who were at the bottom of the heap. The curates received no tithes at all and were akin to waged workers. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roy" <roy.cox@btinternet.com> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, February 16, 2004 9:24 PM Subject: FW: [OEL] The Living? > Sorry List if this has appeared twice - first time I tried it was returned? > > > Kind Regards > > June & Roy > http://www.btinternet.com/~roy.cox/index.htm > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Roy [mailto:roy.cox@btinternet.com] > Sent: Monday, February 16, 2004 7:30 PM > To: 'OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com' > Subject: RE: [OEL] The Living? > > Good Evening Ann - > > Ah! Godney, not too far from my home at Burnham! > What a lively summing up of that ancient place. > > LIVING: > Is an age old term used by the Church of England for BENEFICE. > > BENEFICE: > This is an endowed church office, yielding an income to its holder. > > In other words, the Vicar's salary > > At first the incumbent gained his payment for his principle services to the > church by what "The Living" of the parish had to give. This was usually by > way of the tithe, although he did get extra payments for services rendered, > such as approving transcripts of the registers for onward transmission to > the Bishop [Hence Bishop's Transcripts], and performing ceremonies outside > the normal church services, as it is today of course. > > Tithes were in two classes - Great and Lesser - The great or Rectorial were > tithes of produce, from such things as grow out of the earth, such as corn; > and the small [lesser] or Vicarial were tithes of produce from such things > as are nourished on the earth, such as cattle, sheep, pigs, eggs, fruit Etc. > > There is a lot of interesting information on this subject contained in an > 1888 book on English Church History [if you can find one!] by Rev. C. Arthur > Lane - > > > Kind Regards > > June & Roy > http://www.btinternet.com/~roy.cox/index.htm > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ann Riley [mailto:ariley@mars.ark.com] > Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2004 6:29 AM > To: OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: [OEL] The Living? > > Hello List > Being from Canada I find I am not familiar with this term "The Living" I > have seen it referred to in other statements. Could someone explain please. > > E.g.: in this paragraph > "GODNEY, a hamlet in the parish of Meare, hundred of Glaston- Twelve- Hides, > county Somerset, 5 miles N.W. of Glastonbury, its post town. It is situated > on the river Brue. The manor, which consists of above 3,000 acres, was part > of the demesne of Glastonbury Abbey. The living is a perpetual curacy in the > diocese of Bath and Wells, value £55. The church, dedicated to the Holy > Trinity, was erected in 1838 upon the site of a more ancient edifice." From > The National Gazetteer of Great Britain and Ireland (1868) Transcribed by > Colin Hinson © 2003 > > Thanks, Ann > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > Going away for a while? > Don't forget to UNSUBSCRIBE! > OLD-ENGLISH-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > OLD-ENGLISH Web Page > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > >

Could it be "whiter?" The W is above the S on the keyboard. The writer could be very embarrassed if I'm wrong.