In message <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAhE8CT1AVkES4n n1C4wtrT8KAAAAQAAAApBP5SDYhbUC8UjNO8Y0vdwEAAAAA@btinternet.com>, Roy <roy.cox@btinternet.com> writes >Good Moaning! - > >Just come across the legal definition of TONTINE and as it has just appeared >in a recent query I thought some may like a sight of it? > >"A speculative arrangement for raising money, whereby the persons >contributing to the sum raised receive in return an annuity divisible among >them during their lives, the whole of the annuity being receivable >ultimately by the last survivor for the remaining term of their life" There was a splendid film, called ? the Wrong Box' with Peter Sellers when he was still funny. The tontine had reached a point where there were only two or three old men alive and their families were working their socks of to eliminate all but their man, and to pretend he was alive when he was recently deceased. so they would inherit the money from the 'last named' -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

The tontine share in question was taken out in the testator's son's name. A bit like buying the son a lottery ticket - worth something or a lot! This was not unheard of - my great x 4 grandfather did the same for his son - his will of 1807 contains: "I give unto my Son Joseph Eade all that my share of one hundred pounds in the Wanstead Tontine on his own life to & for his own use & benefit " Of course the other members of the tontine may also have invested in their children's names, so it may not have been such an advantage after all !! Cheers, Liz in Melbourne On Tuesday, March 09, 2004 11:10 PM, History Search [SMTP:history.search@btopenworld.com] wrote: > The original poster mentioned a tontine being left in a will, if I remember > correctly. > > I cannot see how that is compatible with the definition below which tallies > with what I had always understood a tontine to be (from an Agatha Christie > story I once read) > > Chris > ...puzzled > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > "A speculative arrangement for raising money, whereby the persons > > contributing to the sum raised receive in return an annuity divisible > among > > them during their lives, the whole of the annuity being receivable > > ultimately by the last survivor for the remaining term of their life" > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > OLD-ENGLISH Web Page > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/

The original poster mentioned a tontine being left in a will, if I remember correctly. I cannot see how that is compatible with the definition below which tallies with what I had always understood a tontine to be (from an Agatha Christie story I once read) Chris ...puzzled ----- Original Message ----- > "A speculative arrangement for raising money, whereby the persons > contributing to the sum raised receive in return an annuity divisible among > them during their lives, the whole of the annuity being receivable > ultimately by the last survivor for the remaining term of their life"

Hi Martyn, To clog was to fasten a clog or heavy block of wood to; to fetter or confine by this means. [OED] I can't find anything likely for ploged yet. I tried plugged which means to stop but not really in the sense that fits the context. Cheers, Liz in Melbourne On Tuesday, March 09, 2004 7:08 AM, mjcl [SMTP:mjcl@btinternet.com] wrote: > The following is from the Jury's presentment at Quarter Sessions for the west part of Sussex held at Horsham on 5th October, 1696. I have shown the whole presentment. > > "Imprs We present Clement Poe of Sellsey in the said County yeoman > for keeping a certaine Mastife dogg which that don greate damage > on Alice the wife of Thomas Crowther of Selsey aforesaid and very > likely to do other damage to the Kings Leige People by beeing > suffered to goe Loose unMusselled clogged or Ploged:/" > > Anyone any ideas as to the meaning of " clogged " and " Ploged"? > > regards > > Martyn > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > To contact the list administrator: > OLD-ENGLISH-admin@rootsweb.com

Good Moaning! - Just come across the legal definition of TONTINE and as it has just appeared in a recent query I thought some may like a sight of it? "A speculative arrangement for raising money, whereby the persons contributing to the sum raised receive in return an annuity divisible among them during their lives, the whole of the annuity being receivable ultimately by the last survivor for the remaining term of their life" Kind Regards June & Roy http://www.btinternet.com/~roy.cox/index.htm

In message <01C405B2.99E8B9A0.emagar@hotkey.net.au>, Elizabeth Agar <emagar@hotkey.net.au> writes >Hi Martyn, > >To clog was to fasten a clog or heavy block of wood to; to fetter or >confine by this means. [OED] > >I can't find anything likely for ploged yet. I tried plugged which means >to stop but not really in the sense that fits the context. I think it is all a way of describing a fierce dog fruistrated from eating people - by a leather muzzle, a woodedn sort of but, or a plug of cotton waste or something - anyway, the beastie's savage teeth are disarmed - exce[ppt this one wasn't. And they said the laws about having Rotweilers muzzled were the first! (Mind you, hunting dogs found straying around royal or noble forests were lawed - had their claws and paws amputated or cut back. > -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

"by beeing suffered to goe Loose unMusselled clogged or Ploged" allowed to go loose unmuzzeled, clogged or ploged gesteckt = steckte = ploged = put/placed Perhaps the saying would mean the mastiff must be muzzeled, clogged (weighted about the neck) or ? Pegged perhaps. Staked/tied to a certain area. Because mastiffs were often used for hunting one would imagine that some dogs might be dangerous if not handled carefully. Obviously they were considerably more powerful than a hound. carlab - Denne meldingen er sjekket for virus av Norton Anti-virus - This message was checked for virus by Norton Anti-virus

SORRY - Forgot the list again .... Kind Regards June & Roy http://www.btinternet.com/~roy.cox/index.htm -----Original Message----- From: Roy [mailto:roy.cox@btinternet.com] Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 8:24 PM To: 'mjcl' Subject: RE: [OEL] Clogged and Ploged Good Evening - Looks as if they had some sort of law even in those days to control dangerous animals! May I suggest the accused was whipped around the town barefoot? In Somerset there was a similar punishment called "Skimmerton Riding" applied to women of disrepute! And before you ask - NO! Kind Regards June & Roy http://www.btinternet.com/~roy.cox/index.htm -----Original Message----- From: mjcl [mailto:mjcl@btinternet.com] Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 8:08 PM To: OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [OEL] Clogged and Ploged The following is from the Jury's presentment at Quarter Sessions for the west part of Sussex held at Horsham on 5th October, 1696. I have shown the whole presentment. "Imprs We present Clement Poe of Sellsey in the said County yeoman for keeping a certaine Mastife dogg which that don greate damage on Alice the wife of Thomas Crowther of Selsey aforesaid and very likely to do other damage to the Kings Leige People by beeing suffered to goe Loose unMusselled clogged or Ploged:/" Anyone any ideas as to the meaning of " clogged " and " Ploged"? regards Martyn ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== To contact the list administrator: OLD-ENGLISH-admin@rootsweb.com

The following is from the Jury's presentment at Quarter Sessions for the west part of Sussex held at Horsham on 5th October, 1696. I have shown the whole presentment. "Imprs We present Clement Poe of Sellsey in the said County yeoman for keeping a certaine Mastife dogg which that don greate damage on Alice the wife of Thomas Crowther of Selsey aforesaid and very likely to do other damage to the Kings Leige People by beeing suffered to goe Loose unMusselled clogged or Ploged:/" Anyone any ideas as to the meaning of " clogged " and " Ploged"? regards Martyn

Hi Chris, 6/ Expenses be fully paid and satisfied and I do Give and 7/ Bequeath unto my Dear Son William Frederick Zincke 8/ all that my Share in The Richmond Bridge Tontine which 9/ I purchased on his life and all my Right Title and Interest 10/ therein To Hold to my said son William Frederick Zincke A tontine was a financial scheme by which the subscribers to a loan or common fund receive each an annuity during his life, which increases as their number is diminished by death, till the last survivor enjoys the whole income; also applied to the share or right of each subscriber. Lorenzo Tonti was a Neapolitan banker. Richmond Bridge as it is today was built in 1774-1775 so presumably the Tontine helped finance it. New Inn was one of the Inns of Court and became an Inn of Chancery. Cheers, Liz in Melbourne On Monday, March 08, 2004 4:47 PM, J.C.Christopher Glass [SMTP:chris@jccglass.fsnet.co.uk] wrote: > hi all > im have trouble with a few words in a will lines 8,9 ,10 > image at > http://www.geocities.com/jccglass/tontine.html > > will load problem lines page2 image later > > his son is refred to as a" member of new inn" in his mothers will > which i take to be related to the law courts > > chris Glass Ruislip uk > > > page1 > > 1/ IN THE NAME OF GOD AMEN > 2/ I Christian Zincke of New Inn in the County of > 3/ Middlesex, Esquire do make and ordain my last will and > 4/ Testament in manner and form following that is to say > 5/ first I will and direct that all my just debts and funeral > 6/ expenses be fully paid and satisfied and I do give and > 7/ bequeath unto my dear son William Frederick Zincke > 8/ all that my share in //////// //// at Tontine which > 9/ I purchased on his life and all my Right Title and Interest? > 10/ therein //////? to my said son William Frederick Zincke > 11/ his executors administrators and assign to and for his and > 12/ their own use and benefit and all the rest and residue of > 13/ my estate and effects of what nature or kind soever I give > 14/ and bequeath unto my dearly beloved wife Sarah Zincke > 15/ and my said son William Frederick Zincke equally to be > 16/ divided between them share and share alike and in case > 17/ either of them my said wife Sarah Zincke and son William > 18/ Frederick Zincke shall happen to die before me then I give > snip >

In message <003c01c4043b$c7578600$11749a8e@home>, Mary <murcon@allstream.net> writes >Hi > My 3x gr. grandmother Sarah Spencer's Executors of her fathers will >gave a £300 marriage settlement bond. This was stated as money in trust in >case the marriage did not go well she had money for herself. I understand >that the other of her inheritance would become property of her husband. A marriage settlement is different - the post was about the allegation and bond signed by an intending groom (or very rarely bride) to obtain a licence to marry other than by banns (3 week delay and public announcement.) The sum stated is only payable if he defaults on the intention to marry. ( a fee for the licence itself was paid_) A marriage settlement is a sum secured -usually by the father of the bride - on his daughter who is about to marry. In general, the husband would receive with her a dowry of money or land (which were his to use) but a wise father would tie the dowry up at least in part for his daughter - she gets a set provision (house, land, money) if she becomes a widow, and if she dies, her own children get it, not any children the husband has by a subsequent wife. -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

many thanks Was so busy trying to see it as an amount of money didnt see it as the name of a get rich(mond ) quick Scheme i have just been sent a couple more wills to tackle cheers all chris Glass ruislip Uk

----- Original Message ----- From: "J.C.Christopher Glass" <chris@jccglass.fsnet.co.uk> [8/ all that my share in //////// //// at Tontine which] should be: Richmond Bridge Geoffers Charlbury, Oxfordshire

----- Original Message ----- From: "J.C.Christopher Glass" <chris@jccglass.fsnet.co.uk> [8/ all that my share in //////// //// at Tontine which] Richmond Blidat [10/ therein //////? to my said son William Frederick Zincke] to hold? [20/ write and subscribe his name and having now ///fully] faithfully [24/ in their //////// believe the whole script and contours?] consciences [27/ said deceased - Jno Radcliffe - Jno Dax //// joint? the?] John Dax same day the Geoffers Charlbury, Oxfordshire

hi all im have trouble with a few words in a will lines 8,9 ,10 image at http://www.geocities.com/jccglass/tontine.html will load problem lines page2 image later his son is refred to as a" member of new inn" in his mothers will which i take to be related to the law courts chris Glass Ruislip uk page1 1/ IN THE NAME OF GOD AMEN 2/ I Christian Zincke of New Inn in the County of 3/ Middlesex, Esquire do make and ordain my last will and 4/ Testament in manner and form following that is to say 5/ first I will and direct that all my just debts and funeral 6/ expenses be fully paid and satisfied and I do give and 7/ bequeath unto my dear son William Frederick Zincke 8/ all that my share in //////// //// at Tontine which 9/ I purchased on his life and all my Right Title and Interest? 10/ therein //////? to my said son William Frederick Zincke 11/ his executors administrators and assign to and for his and 12/ their own use and benefit and all the rest and residue of 13/ my estate and effects of what nature or kind soever I give 14/ and bequeath unto my dearly beloved wife Sarah Zincke 15/ and my said son William Frederick Zincke equally to be 16/ divided between them share and share alike and in case 17/ either of them my said wife Sarah Zincke and son William 18/ Frederick Zincke shall happen to die before me then I give page2 1/ and bequeath the share of her or him so dying of the 2/ said Rest and Residue of my estate and Effects unto the 3/ survivor of them and I do constitute and appoint my said 4/ wife Sarah Zincke and my son William Frederick Zincke 5/ executor and Executrix of this my will hereby revoking all 6/ former wills by me at any time heretofore made and I 7/ declare this to be my last will and testament in witness 8/ whereof I have hereunto set my hands and seal this 24th 9/ day of June in the year of our Lord One thousand seven 10/ hundred and eighty five - Christian Zincke. 11/ June 9th 1795 12/ APPEARED PERSONALLY John Radcliffe of 13/ the New Inn in the County of Middlesex and John Dax of 14/ Cooks Court Carey Street in the County of Middlesex Esquires 15/ and made oath that they knew and were well acquainted 16/ with Christian Zincke late of New Inn in the same County 17/ Esquire deceased for some time before and to the time of 18/ his death also with his manner and character of zz zzz 19/ handwriting and subscription having often seen him 20/ write and subscribe his name and having now ///fully 21/ viewed and perused the paper writing hereunto annexed 22/ marked (a) being and containing the last will and 23/ testament of the said deceased Say that they verily and 24/ in their //////// believe the whole script and contours? 25/ of the said paper writing and the subscription? sheets? to 26/ be all of the proper handwriting and subscription of the 27/ said deceased - Jno Radcliffe - Jno Dax //// joint? the? 28/ said John Radcliffe and John Dax were duly sworn to 29/ the truth of the above affidavit before me M. Swabey Surrate 30/ Edwd. (H)Cooper? 31/ THIS WILL was proved at London the zz zz 32/ thirteouth day of June in the year of our Lord one 33/ thousand seven hundred and ninety five before the zz 34/ worshipful Maurice Swabey Doctor of Law Surrogate 35/ of the Right Honorable Sir William WOLFIENT? Knight also 36/ Doctor of Law Master Keeper or Commissary of the 37/ prerogative court of Canterbury lawfully constituted by 38/ the oaths of Sarah Zincke widow the relict of zz 39/ the deceased and William Frederick Zincke the son of the 40/ the said deceased and the executors named in the said will to 41/ whom administration was granted of all and singular 42/ The goods and chattels and credits of the said deceased they 43/ having been first sworn duly to administer.

A very good afternoon to everyone - especially those who enquired about the reference to this subject I gave. May I first say just in case someone gets the idea that I am a "Road Expert" - I am very sorry to say that I am not in more ways than one being a bit disabled :- ) - however means of getting around form probably one of the most important parts of our lives and I thank Pete Brown for giving the references he did - I haven't looked yet but I am sure they will find a niche in my little library and I look forward to that pleasure! The SRO has an excellent web facility (As all CROs do of course :-)) and this detail and a great deal more can be viewed at: - http://www.somerset.gov.uk Click on "Featured Website" beneath the photo of researchers in the search room and then in the left column click - " A brief Somerset History" - Could give the full URL of course but - have a look at what else is on offer by the way! This will present a list of what is available that includes two articles on the subject in question - "Turnpikes" - "Roads" I think the term "Military Roads" may have referred to those that accessed military establishments where that access may have been restricted to military personnel only, thus pack horse teams (Caravans?) would have been the only users? The outside ruts formed by the gun carriage wheels. Hard work for the 'ole footers though trying to get in :- )) an expression comes to mind though - "All a bit of a Muchness!" and I do know that the Romans made military roads but which they had little idea for their upkeep! Kind Regards June & Roy http://www.btinternet.com/~roy.cox/index.htm -----Original Message----- From: Julia Hunt [mailto:julia.hunt@ntlworld.com] Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2004 11:49 AM To: OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com Subject: RE: [OEL] Turnpikes & Travel Hi June and Roy, Do you think you could post the reference to the account on Somerset Travel through the ages which is at the Somerset Record Office so that I can have a look the next time I am down there? Julia Hunt ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== Going away for a while? Don't forget to UNSUBSCRIBE! OLD-ENGLISH-L-request@rootsweb.com

Hi June and Roy, Do you think you could post the reference to the account on Somerset Travel through the ages which is at the Somerset Record Office so that I can have a look the next time I am down there? Julia Hunt

Hello Roy Can you give the date of this account, please? I attended a lecture, a few years ago now, by a researcher into military matters in, if I remember rightly, the 16th and 17th centuries. He described these hollow ways as military roads. I find it hard to believe that all these hollow ways are either solely packhorse or military. Around my way we have a packhorse bridge over the River Goyt and more than one causeway (large pieces of stone set one after the other along a particular route). I have also seen pictures of some of these crossing the Pennines and have been told that these are part of the salt routes. We also have a path across fields with old cobbles embedded in part of it. You have to look hard for them but they are there. In addition to that, we have a small section of hollow way. I have a feeling that it is, as you have mentioned, a case of what works best in that particular part of the terrain but I also think (personally) that some of these are old township roads, connecting the farms before the turnpikes and other newer roads were made. However, the causeways seem do to be for the pack horses as they are in the right places. On the other hand, we also have an old road near the top of a hill, called Gun Road and a farm a little lower down known as Pistol! Anyone out there an expert in roads and paths in the landscape? Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roy" <roy.cox@btinternet.com> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2004 11:16 AM Subject: [OEL] Turnpikes & Travel > Good Morning - > > As a small follow-up to our discussion recently regarding transport, I have > just come across the following at Somerset Record Office, copied from a much > fuller account on Somerset Travel through the ages: - > > "Over longer distances the pack-horses travelled in single file teams, and > the lanes they used were gradually, over the centuries, worn into deep > 'hollowways', especially in hilly districts or where the ground was sandy or > soft." > > If we remember we talked about the tracks left in lanes and how they were > caused? > > If anyone would like a copy of the whole document I will copy and send it to > you - it really is quite enlightening. > > Kind Regards to all - > > June & Roy > > http://www.btinternet.com/~roy.cox/index.htm > > > > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > OLD-ENGLISH Web Page > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > >

Possibly a women of independent means with no male relative close enough to sponsor her? Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "G W Coppock" <gwcoppock@cablelynx.com> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2004 11:41 PM Subject: [OEL] 17th Century marriage bonds > While there is traffic concerning marriage bonds, I thought I would ask > about the marriage bond of my 7Great Grandparents. > > In my caes the bride to be was the one required to post the bond. She > was named as a spinster and was 29 years old, he was 26. Is there any > significance to the bride being required to post the bond? Thanks > > GW > > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > OLD-ENGLISH Web Page > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > >

In a message dated 07/03/04 10:53:10 GMT Standard Time, norman.lee1@virgin.net writes: > Anyone out there an expert in roads and paths in the landscape? > Errr......no! But I am an archaeologist so I can provide some guidance and I'm pleased that for once I can contribute to OEL rather than just learning from it!! A good starting point for this sort of clarification are the Monument Class Descriptions drawn up by English Heritage. These are used as classification guides for monument protection work that I and others do. http://www.eng-h.gov.uk/mpp/mcd/intro2.htm Unfortunately hollow ways are mentioned within the sections on Medieval roads, but without any specific detail on the criteria. However, there is a lot of relevant stuff in the roads info at: http://www.eng-h.gov.uk/mpp/mcd/mroad.htm It appears that roads such as saltways and military routes are mentioned even in Anglo Saxon charters. Anyway, have a butchers at the site and its well worth looking at the big index too. Do come back to me if I can help any more with stuff like this, either on or off list. HTH Pete Brown Groby, Leicestershire /\___/\ | o o | >(( v ))< \ _^_ /