Further to my previous message and having thought long and hard about the insertions written in the margin, I believe both the entries contain the same words. The <> are used to bracket the insertions. Line 14 therefore reads in full: "J.G.D. and his heirs Subject nev[erthe]less to red[emptio]n <or [?] for recon- [veying the] same to the s[ai]d Thos H. his heirs & ass[igns] or [otherw]ise as he or they [?] & direct> on pay[men]t to him" and Line 23 (the third last) reads: "the s[ai]d Jas. Geo. Doyle & his heirs Subject <nev[erthe]less> to red[emptio]n <or [..?..] for reconveying the same to the s[ai]d Thos H. his heirs & ass[igns] or otherwise as he or they [?] & direct>" Perhaps someone else can have a go at the missing word visible at the beginning of the second insertion in the margin. Looks like - - p - - - - - or it could be an f. A lot of the smudging went away with manipulation in a graphics package. But I'm afraid that's my lot!! Cheers, Liz in Melbourne

In message <1a4.2121f7f6.2d84db2c@aol.com>, GaryIvoDe@aol.com writes >http://www.documentsonline.pro.gov.uk/download.asp?T=108234&S=I/04/00105000W&E >=GaryIvoDe@aol.com >can make this out but I thought I'd try. After reaching >the >site, just click DOWNLOAD. It costs 3 pounds to download wills from this site > -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

Hi Narelle, These are my thoughts. The line numbers refer to the original document. I hope this makes sense - I thought of typing the whole thing but then it was too hard to show what I have altered. Line 3 ends "N.S.Wales Esquire" Line 4 starts "of the 1st part" Line 5 ends "River Hawkesbury af' [aforesaid] Farmer of" Line 6 starts "the 2d part - And" Lines 7-8 read "Panton of Sydney and ['Sydney and' ruled out] Windsor in the Colony af' [aforesaid] Merchants and Copartners in trade <under the style or firm of Betts and Panton> of the 3d part - Whereas I am" <> indicates inserted text Line 9 starts "Ind[entu]re of <Release by way of> M[or]t[ga]ge" Line 10 starts "between the s[ai]d" and ends "of the one part" Line 12 starts "cont[ainin]g by est[imatio]n 70 a[cres] m[ore] or l[ess]" Line 12 last word is perhaps "assured" - he dots his 'eyes' so I don't think this is assined to assure meant to convey property by deed, now obsolete. Line 13 starts "was with the app[urtenance]s conveyed and assured unto and to the use of the s[aid]" appurtenances - things belonging to, e.g. fences Line 14 "J.G.D. and his heirs Subject nev[erthe]less to red[emptio]n on pay[men]t to him" - redemption seems to make sense. Line 17 starts "of Rel[ease] by way of M[or]t[ga]ge" Line 20 ends "the parcel of l[and] cont[ainin]g by est[imation]" Line 21 starts "66 1/2 acres m[ore] or l[ess]" and again I think the word is assured not assined Line 22 starts "the app[urtenance]s conveyed and assured unto the[ruled out] & to the use of" Line 24 starts "on payment to the s[ai]d" Line 25 ends "with interest" I'll see if I can make out anything useful with the bits in the margin but first it's time to eat! Cheers, Liz in Melbourne On Saturday, March 13, 2004 5:37 PM, Narelle [SMTP:narelle@annforbes.org] wrote: > It is my understanding that some of you on this List may be able to help some friends of mine decipher an old document - it is located at: > http://www.annforbes.org/hux1.html > > Below is where John has had a go at deciphering - it is in relation to a Land Grant to Thomas Huxley Junior NSW Hawkesbury Area. > Regards > Narelle > "Just off the Road to Gundagai....." > ************************************************** > www.annforbes.org > ************************************************* > www.jmi.net.au > ************************************************* > AntiVir Installed > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: John Chapman > To: Narelle > Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 5:25 PM > Subject: Fw: Thomas Huxley paper > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: John Chapman > To: lynne@annforbes.org > Cc: narelle@abbforbes.org ; Trish Harvey ; laurel@annforbes.org ; trevor@annforbes.org > Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 3:10 PM > Subject: Thomas Huxley paper > > > Hi Lynne, > This is my "two bob's worth" on the Thomas Huxley Bill with a few comments in brackets of my own. > This Indre (INDENTURE) made the 4th day of February 1846 Between James George Doyle of Winbairn ( A FLORID W) Portland Head on the River Hawkesbury in the Colony of N.S.Wales Squire of the 1sr part --- Thomas Huxley the younger of Lower Portland Head on the River Hawkesbury Farmer of the 2nd part --- and John Betts and Alexander George Panton of -Sydney(scratched out) Windsor in the Colony as merchants under the style of firm Betts and Panton and copartners in trade of the 3rd part. > Whereas I am instructed release by way of judge(JUDGEMENT) dated the 20th day of July 1824(scratched out) 1844 made between Sd(SAID) Thos H and Mary his wife of one part and the sd(SAID) Jas G.D. of the other part the parcel of land consg(CONSISTING) by estm(ESTIMATION) of 70 acres ......hereinafter described and ASSINED (ASSIGNED SPELT WRONGLY) was with the appt(APPOINTMENT?) conveyed and assined unto and for the use of J.G.D. and his heirs subject to ---------- to -------- on payt(PAYMENT) to him the sd(SAID) J.G.D. of the sum of £ 123 Stg(STERLING) on the 20th day of July now last past-- And whereas by another Indre (INDENTURE) by way of (probably judgement) dated the 16th day of May last and made between the Sd (SAID) Thos Huxley and Mary his wife of the one part and the Sd(SAID) Jas. Geo Doyle(therein named James Doyle) of the other part The parcel of land containing 66 1/2 acres in all hereinafter described and assined(ASSIGNED) was with the appt(APPOINTMENT probably,! > maybe APPOINTED) coveyed and assined unto ???? for the use of the Sd(SAID) Jas Geo Doyle & his heirs subject nevless(NEVERTHELESS) to retn (RETURN) and payment to the Sd Jas Geo Doyle of the sum of £ 90 Stg(STERLING) on the 16th day of May now next with the interest (missing... probably THEN DUE) > INDENTURE: To draw up a Legal Form in Multiple Copies.... English Legal Term (Websters) > That show what 50 years of trying to decipher a doctor's handwriting can do !! I am not attempting the side comment under the blot either. > > > > Kind regards, > John Chapman. > WERRIS CREEK > First Railway Town in N.S.W. > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > OLD-ENGLISH Web Page > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/

It is my understanding that some of you on this List may be able to help some friends of mine decipher an old document - it is located at: http://www.annforbes.org/hux1.html Below is where John has had a go at deciphering - it is in relation to a Land Grant to Thomas Huxley Junior NSW Hawkesbury Area. Regards Narelle "Just off the Road to Gundagai....." ************************************************** www.annforbes.org ************************************************* www.jmi.net.au ************************************************* AntiVir Installed ----- Original Message ----- From: John Chapman To: Narelle Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 5:25 PM Subject: Fw: Thomas Huxley paper ----- Original Message ----- From: John Chapman To: lynne@annforbes.org Cc: narelle@abbforbes.org ; Trish Harvey ; laurel@annforbes.org ; trevor@annforbes.org Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 3:10 PM Subject: Thomas Huxley paper Hi Lynne, This is my "two bob's worth" on the Thomas Huxley Bill with a few comments in brackets of my own. This Indre (INDENTURE) made the 4th day of February 1846 Between James George Doyle of Winbairn ( A FLORID W) Portland Head on the River Hawkesbury in the Colony of N.S.Wales Squire of the 1sr part --- Thomas Huxley the younger of Lower Portland Head on the River Hawkesbury Farmer of the 2nd part --- and John Betts and Alexander George Panton of -Sydney(scratched out) Windsor in the Colony as merchants under the style of firm Betts and Panton and copartners in trade of the 3rd part. Whereas I am instructed release by way of judge(JUDGEMENT) dated the 20th day of July 1824(scratched out) 1844 made between Sd(SAID) Thos H and Mary his wife of one part and the sd(SAID) Jas G.D. of the other part the parcel of land consg(CONSISTING) by estm(ESTIMATION) of 70 acres ......hereinafter described and ASSINED (ASSIGNED SPELT WRONGLY) was with the appt(APPOINTMENT?) conveyed and assined unto and for the use of J.G.D. and his heirs subject to ---------- to -------- on payt(PAYMENT) to him the sd(SAID) J.G.D. of the sum of £ 123 Stg(STERLING) on the 20th day of July now last past-- And whereas by another Indre (INDENTURE) by way of (probably judgement) dated the 16th day of May last and made between the Sd (SAID) Thos Huxley and Mary his wife of the one part and the Sd(SAID) Jas. Geo Doyle(therein named James Doyle) of the other part The parcel of land containing 66 1/2 acres in all hereinafter described and assined(ASSIGNED) was with the appt(APPOINTMENT probably,! maybe APPOINTED) coveyed and assined unto ???? for the use of the Sd(SAID) Jas Geo Doyle & his heirs subject nevless(NEVERTHELESS) to retn (RETURN) and payment to the Sd Jas Geo Doyle of the sum of £ 90 Stg(STERLING) on the 16th day of May now next with the interest (missing... probably THEN DUE) INDENTURE: To draw up a Legal Form in Multiple Copies.... English Legal Term (Websters) That show what 50 years of trying to decipher a doctor's handwriting can do !! I am not attempting the side comment under the blot either. Kind regards, John Chapman. WERRIS CREEK First Railway Town in N.S.W.

http://www.documentsonline.pro.gov.uk/download.asp?T=108234&S=I/04/00105000W&E =GaryIvoDe@aol.com There is a will online at the above URL which is indecipherable to me except for six or seven words. The penmanship is beautiful but..... I doubt that anyone can make this out but I thought I'd try. After reaching the site, just click DOWNLOAD. I'll repeat the URL in case Rootsweb deletes it: http://www.documentsonline.pro.gov.uk/download.asp? T=108234&S=I/04/00105000W&E-GaryIvoDe@aol.com Gary Radcliffe

Further to my message below, the Parish in line 7 is Lynton, not Systow. The intial letter is the same as the L in Leases. There is a Linton in Cambridgeshire, S.E. of Cambridge. Cheers, Liz On Saturday, March 13, 2004 6:26 AM, Elizabeth Agar [SMTP:emagar@hotkey.net.au] wrote: > Hi Chris, > > My thoughts: > > 1/ as conveniently may be and direct that the charges of my Funeral > 2/ do not exceed the sum of one hundred pounds Sterling I will and direct > 3/ that all my Debts and Funeral Expences be fully paid and satisfied > 4/ Item I give devise and bequeath unto my good Son Christian > 5/ Zincke and his heirs all my Messuages Lands and Hereditaments > 6/ as well Freehold as Copyhold with their and every of their appurts > 7/ situate lying and being in the parish of Systow in the county of > 8/ Cambridge I also give and bequeath unto my said Son one pair > 9/ of Silver Candlesticks a Siver Ink Stand Dish and Sand Box > 10/ and a ---- pair of Silver Scissors with a Steel? Signett of my > 11/ grandfathers and a little Silver Candlestick & Gold Snuff Box > 12/ with his Mothers picture in the Lid of it painted by me my > 13/ diamond ring with four diamonds and two small ones in > > 18/ a Glass before it drawn by Mr. Napton two pictures > > Cheers, > > Liz in Melbourne > > On Saturday, March 13, 2004 1:07 AM, J.C.Christopher Glass [SMTP:chris@jccglass.fsnet.co.uk] wrote: > > May i beg the assistance of the list again with the will > > of Christian Frederick Zincke portrait painter of minitures > > > > image at > > > > > > http://www.geocities.com/jccglass/cfwill.html > > > > cheers chris glass > > ruislip > > > > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > SEARCHABLE archives for OLD-ENGLISH: > http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=OLD-ENGLISH

Hi Chris, My thoughts: 1/ as conveniently may be and direct that the charges of my Funeral 2/ do not exceed the sum of one hundred pounds Sterling I will and direct 3/ that all my Debts and Funeral Expences be fully paid and satisfied 4/ Item I give devise and bequeath unto my good Son Christian 5/ Zincke and his heirs all my Messuages Lands and Hereditaments 6/ as well Freehold as Copyhold with their and every of their appurts 7/ situate lying and being in the parish of Systow in the county of 8/ Cambridge I also give and bequeath unto my said Son one pair 9/ of Silver Candlesticks a Siver Ink Stand Dish and Sand Box 10/ and a ---- pair of Silver Scissors with a Steel? Signett of my 11/ grandfathers and a little Silver Candlestick & Gold Snuff Box 12/ with his Mothers picture in the Lid of it painted by me my 13/ diamond ring with four diamonds and two small ones in 18/ a Glass before it drawn by Mr. Napton two pictures Cheers, Liz in Melbourne On Saturday, March 13, 2004 1:07 AM, J.C.Christopher Glass [SMTP:chris@jccglass.fsnet.co.uk] wrote: > May i beg the assistance of the list again with the will > of Christian Frederick Zincke portrait painter of minitures > > image at > > > http://www.geocities.com/jccglass/cfwill.html > > cheers chris glass > ruislip > >

May i beg the assistance of the list again with the will of Christian Frederick Zincke portrait painter of minitures image at http://www.geocities.com/jccglass/cfwill.html cheers chris glass ruislip

>> >My goodness, Eve! There can't be many of us left who are old enough to have >seen 'The Wrong Box'. Are you sure Peter Sellers was in it? I remember >Ralph Richardson, and a young Michael Caine, but not Sellers. Forget who hge was, but I think he was a solicitor, and he sat at a table writing, and when he needed to blot the page, he picked up one of a whole mass of kittens. Our children thought that was hilarious. -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

In the 17th century, a widow of the lord of a manor near where I live left white bread for poor people of the parish to be handed out annually. There is a plaque in the church commemorating this act, as well as the legacy noted in her will. Eventually this would have been commuted into cash and left to the poor. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marg Morse" <margmorse@smartchat.net.au> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 10:29 PM Subject: [OEL] Bread? > Good Morning All > From a will date 1735 Worcester > The word looks like BREAD--and if it is, was this a common practise in those times? > > "I likewise give and bequeath unto the poor of the parish of All Saints in the said city the sum of £20 to be placed out on good security and that the interest thereof be yearly laid out and given in six penny bread on that day on which I was baptised the said bread to be disposed of at the direction of Mr Alderman Lowbridge during his natural life and after his decease by the church warden of the said parish " > Cheers > Marg > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > To UNSUBSCRIBE from list mode -- > Send the one word UNSUBSCRIBE to > OLD-ENGLISH-L-request@rootsweb.com > >

Steve Dilks wrote: > I have a deed involving Thomas Dilke from 1625 in Whitwick, Leicestershire. > There is one word that has me stumped. > > You can view the exerpt at: > > http://www.genealogy.com/users/d/i/l/Stephen-b-Dilks/PHOTO/0001photo.html > > I think this is some kind of abbreviation I don't understand, so an > explanation, as well as a translation would be appreciated! Yes, it's "p'misses", as an abbreviation for "premisses". Chris Phillips

>date 1735 Worcester > The word looks like BREAD--and if it is, was this a common practise in those >times? > >"I likewise give and bequeath unto the poor of the parish of All Saints in the >said city the sum of £20 to be placed out on good security and that the >interest thereof be yearly laid out and given in six penny bread on that >day on which I was baptised the said bread yes - a very regular sort of bequest to the poor, whose staple diet was bread. Sixpenny bread - this is either the more expensive white sort,m ior six X penny loaves, or this was a very high priced time for bread (which I think it was) -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

Steve, Its p[re]misses Regards Martyn Stephen Barr Dilks <sbdilks@attglobal.net> wrote: Hi All, I have a deed involving Thomas Dilke from 1625 in Whitwick, Leicestershire. There is one word that has me stumped. You can view the exerpt at: http://www.genealogy.com/users/d/i/l/Stephen-b-Dilks/PHOTO/0001photo.html I think this is some kind of abbreviation I don't understand, so an explanation, as well as a translation would be appreciated! Thanks in advance, Steve Dilks ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== To UNSUBSCRIBE from list mode -- Send the one word UNSUBSCRIBE to OLD-ENGLISH-L-request@rootsweb.com

Hello Marg I have 3 or 4 wills here bequeathing money for the poor to be paid out in bread. regards Chris Bartlett > -----Original Message----- > From: Marg Morse [mailto:margmorse@smartchat.net.au] > Sent: Thursday, 11 March 2004 11:29 a.m. > To: OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: [OEL] Bread? > > > Good Morning All > From a will date 1735 Worcester > The word looks like BREAD--and if it is, was this a common > practise in those times? > > "I likewise give and bequeath unto the poor of the parish of All > Saints in the said city the sum of £20 to be placed out on good > security and that the interest thereof be yearly laid out and > given in six penny bread on that day on which I was baptised > the said bread to be disposed of at the direction of Mr > Alderman Lowbridge during his natural life and after his decease > by the church warden of the said parish " > Cheers > Marg > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > To UNSUBSCRIBE from list mode -- > Send the one word UNSUBSCRIBE to > OLD-ENGLISH-L-request@rootsweb.com > > >

> There was a splendid film, called ? the Wrong Box' with Peter Sellers > when he was still funny. The tontine had reached a point where there > were only two or three old men alive and their families were working > their socks of to eliminate all but their man, and to pretend he was > alive when he was recently deceased. so they would inherit the money > from the 'last named' > Eve McLaughlin > My goodness, Eve! There can't be many of us left who are old enough to have seen 'The Wrong Box'. Are you sure Peter Sellers was in it? I remember Ralph Richardson, and a young Michael Caine, but not Sellers. It was funny, and clever. Gordon

Good Morning All From a will date 1735 Worcester The word looks like BREAD--and if it is, was this a common practise in those times? "I likewise give and bequeath unto the poor of the parish of All Saints in the said city the sum of £20 to be placed out on good security and that the interest thereof be yearly laid out and given in six penny bread on that day on which I was baptised the said bread to be disposed of at the direction of Mr Alderman Lowbridge during his natural life and after his decease by the church warden of the said parish " Cheers Marg

Yes, very common. Bread was the main part of many diets in those days and a convenient way of distributing relief. Cheers Guy Marg Morse wrote: > Good Morning All > From a will date 1735 Worcester > The word looks like BREAD--and if it is, was this a common practise in those times? > > "I likewise give and bequeath unto the poor of the parish of All Saints in the said city the sum of £20 to be placed out on good security and that the interest thereof be yearly laid out and given in six penny bread on that day on which I was baptised the said bread to be disposed of at the direction of Mr Alderman Lowbridge during his natural life and after his decease by the church warden of the said parish " > Cheers > Marg > -- Wakefield, England http://freespace.virgin.net/guy.etchells The site that gives you facts not promises! http://www.archivecdbooks.org Where you find the answer http://www.framland.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/ Worldwide Cemetery Links, Monumental Inscriptions, War Graves, etc.

Hi All, I have a deed involving Thomas Dilke from 1625 in Whitwick, Leicestershire. There is one word that has me stumped. You can view the exerpt at: http://www.genealogy.com/users/d/i/l/Stephen-b-Dilks/PHOTO/0001photo.html I think this is some kind of abbreviation I don't understand, so an explanation, as well as a translation would be appreciated! Thanks in advance, Steve Dilks

In message <01C40666.D794CAA0.emagar@hotkey.net.au>, Elizabeth Agar <emagar@hotkey.net.au> writes >The tontine share in question was taken out in the testator's son's name. >A bit like buying the son a lottery ticket - worth something or a lot! >This was not unheard of - my great x 4 grandfather did the same for his >son - his will of 1807 contains: > >"I give unto my Son Joseph Eade all that my share of one hundred >pounds in the Wanstead Tontine on his own life to & for his own use & >benefit " That makes a lot of sense and fits the strict definition well. You can imagine, though, what would have been the reaction if father took out a share in Tom's name and left it by will to Dick or Harry. -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

In message <015b01c405ef$8ad56520$e2d57ad5@ndfn8>, History Search <history.search@btopenworld.com> writes >The original poster mentioned a tontine being left in a will, if I remember >correctly. That hadn't impinged - yes, it is odd, but maybe this was a special arrangement for this particular (non-strict) tontine. Rather like the lease of three lives, which should have expired when the third died, but by normal convention could be extended by paying a small fee to a further life (or even lives) > >I cannot see how that is compatible with the definition below which tallies >with what I had always understood a tontine to be the definition is correct, and, as you say, should make it as a bequest impossible. >> "A speculative arrangement for raising money, whereby the persons >> contributing to the sum raised receive in return an annuity divisible >among >> them during their lives, the whole of the annuity being receivable >> ultimately by the last survivor for the remaining term of their life" -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society