Kind Regards June & Roy http://www.btinternet.com/~roy.cox/index.htm -----Original Message----- From: Roy [mailto:roy.cox@btinternet.com] Sent: Monday, March 15, 2004 4:17 PM To: 'Gordon Barlow' Subject: RE: [OEL] Scottish tacks Good Afternoon - TACK: The Scottish dictionary list 2 different definitions of this word, both of which are expanded on at length, the 2nd is I think the one in question here? 1. Tack or Nail 2. A lease or tenure. Esp. the leasehold tenure of a farm, mill, mining or fishing rights It also refers to a related word of TAK which has many variations seemingly to depend on which part of Scotland one is from or maybe which Clan? It also relates: - "Tax or Toll collecting; The period of Tenure; The farm or piece of land held on a lease; A customary payment levied by a feudal superior; An agreement; A bargain; A specified period of time; A lease; A spell (of weather); It then relates A TAKKAR: A person who grants a Tack; And includes the word TACKSMAN: A person who holds a Tack, a tenant or lessee. This is accompanied by a note: "There is evidence from the late 15th century to the early 16th century" But does not describe this evidence. The whole covers over a single page of related variations which look to be Clan and dialect related. Kind Regards June & Roy http://www.btinternet.com/~roy.cox/index.htm -----Original Message----- From: Gordon Barlow [mailto:barlow@candw.ky] Sent: Monday, March 15, 2004 5:38 AM To: OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [OEL] Scottish tacks According to a book I am reading on Scottish history, the basis of land tenure in the 17th Century for junior branches of "the chiefly houses" in the clan territories of the Highlands, was "usually either a tack, wadset or a feu. A tack was a lease. A wadset was the Scots term for a mortgage. It was often converted into a feu, which meant virtual ownership in exchange for a lump sum annual payment to a feudal superior who retained certain powers of control..." ""... the clan gentry, often known generically as tacksmen..." I found that very interesting, because I had never heard the term "tacksmen" before. It seems reasonable enough to presume that the words "feudal" and "fee" came from "feu", and I also wonder if our word "tax" might conceivably have come from "tacks", in the same general sense of payments for an income-producing area of land. What does the Team think? Also, is there any modern cognate of "wadset"? Gordon ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== OLD-ENGLISH Web Page http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/

Hello ?? Pete ?? , What type of keyboard are you using ? , What is the Letter / word in this " spokeswoman said: “Diot was a Christian name for girls in the " Just after the ' said : is a ' Garbled Mess in my Mailbox , what is before Diot ?? , I wonder am I missing a Font in my System OR what ? , Phil ----- Original Message ----- From: <NorthantsBrowns@aol.com> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, March 15, 2004 9:37 AM Subject: [OEL] Diot COKE christened 1379 (honest!) > Dear List > This was posted to another list by my friend Doreen in Canada. It apparently > appeared in the UK newspaper (more of a comic) The Sun. > I just had to pass it on to the list that deals with unusual names!!! > Pete Brown > > *************************************** > Researchers at the National Archives made the revelation yesterday in their > family history magazine, Ancestors. > > A spokeswoman said: “Diot was a Christian name for girls in the 14th Century, > short for Dionisia. > > “And we have discovered that one girl with the surname Coke was christened > Diot in 1379.” > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > To UNSUBSCRIBE from list mode -- > Send the one word UNSUBSCRIBE to > OLD-ENGLISH-L-request@rootsweb.com >

Dear List This was posted to another list by my friend Doreen in Canada. It apparently appeared in the UK newspaper (more of a comic) The Sun. I just had to pass it on to the list that deals with unusual names!!! Pete Brown *************************************** Researchers at the National Archives made the revelation yesterday in their family history magazine, Ancestors. A spokeswoman said: “Diot was a Christian name for girls in the 14th Century, short for Dionisia. “And we have discovered that one girl with the surname Coke was christened Diot in 1379.”

In message <008101c40a4f$baedfe70$53f0a1cd@preferred>, Gordon Barlow <barlow@candw.ky> writes >According to a book I am reading on Scottish history, the basis of land tenure >in the 17th Century for junior branches of "the chiefly houses" in the clan >territories of the Highlands, was "usually either a tack, wadset or a feu. A >tack was a lease. A wadset was the Scots term for a mortgage. It was often >converted into a feu, which meant virtual ownership in exchange for a lump sum >annual payment to a feudal superior who retained certain powers of control..." >""... the clan gentry, often known generically as tacksmen..." > >I found that very interesting, because I had never heard the term "tacksmen" >before. It seems reasonable enough to presume that the words "feudal" and "fee" >came from "feu", and I also wonder if our word "tax" might conceivably have come >from "tacks", It is tempting, isn't it? 'tak' in Scots = take, and that is exactly what the income tax men do. But the word tack (or intake in Lancashire) for a piece of property usually means it was land cleared and cultivated, taken (in) from the surrounding forest or moor and very often enclosed or fenced against other further encroachments. Tax is directly from taxare, Latin, meaning to value, charge and handle. >? > >Also, is there any modern cognate of "wadset"? > Something you put down as a pledge. The only very remote thing I can thing of is 'wedge' used as Cockney slang for a fist full of notes (or cash) put down as a bet. But somehow, you can't see Arfur Daley seeking for a word from Scots law terms to express his meaning. -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

hello everyone first of all thanks so much to everyone helping me out with george inn, I have mananged to find the george yard inn just off borough high st in my 2002 london atlas and now to have a picture of it, is just amazing. am checking my email from work and do have another query regarding the will but all my stuff is at home, so will have to post again later. just wanted to say thanks to everyone regards karen adelaide

Having looked again at Horwoods map in the clear morning light and after a good night's sleep to recover from continuing Microsoft troubles, George Yard is indeed a narrow lane but at the end furthest from the Borough High Street there is a small courtyard on the north side of the street, with buildings around the other three sides. So the narrow street must have taken its name from the George Inn as that is what it looks like. Checking on the web there is some info and a picture at http://www.pubs.com/georse1.htm And yes, the link is georse not george! And the inn is still there. Perhaps the lane is too small for my 1960s A-Z. It's now in the hands of the National Trust. Cheers, Liz Quoting "norman.lee1" <norman.lee1@virgin.net>: > Dear Karen, Lyn and Liz > > I am not sure but I think the George was an old coaching inn arranged > around > a square courtyard. My father used to repair a cash register there many > years ago now. I'm raking back through my memory now though and I could be > wrong. I think that Dad said there was a gallery along the upper storey > around the yard and have a feeling that this was for potential passengers > to > wait for their coaches. If it's still there, then Google may have some > information on it as it could be unique. If it is this one, then it was > lucky to escape the WW2 bombing which was aimed at the docks. > > Audrey > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Karen Bennett" <calleja@chariot.net.au> > To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2004 5:37 AM > Subject: [OEL] old will again > > > > thanks liz > > > > could I ask for help with another word in the third line > > > > of Surrey and of the Georgeyard ?? > > > > this is repeated in line 25 > > > > the Georgeyard afoursaid > > > > am i right in reading it as the Georgeyard and any ideas what that could > be > > thanks again > > karen > > > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > > OLD-ENGLISH Web Page > > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > > > > > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > THREADED archives for OLD-ENGLISH: > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > >

Hi Karen and Lyn, I built a response to this hours ago but when I hit send my PC broke and my Outbox was corrupted. I've been going round in circles cursing Microsoft's helpful help files ever since!! I am now on my ISP's web-mail facility which is very basic!! My filing will be even more out of control! George Yard was a very small narrow street, or more like a lane/alley, which ran off to the west from the Borough High Street in Southwark a little north of Sr George's church. There is no visible open space although perhaps there was once. It is shown, along with several other George Yards in London, on my Regency London A-Z which is based on Richard Horwood's map of 1799-1817. It has disappeared in my 'thoroughly modern' 1960s A-Z. The Borough High Street runs more or less SSW from the southern end of London Bridge. Newington Causeway on the other hand is not shown by that name on my Regency map but is on the 1960s A-Z. It is a continuation of the Borough High Street from a bit SSW of St George's Church and runs down to the Elephant and Castle. It would have been just a short walk along the main street from No 10 Newington Causeway to George Yard. Now if I hadn't dropped my Chambers's Dictionary onto the scanner when the lid was up, I could have scanned the appropriate page from my Regencey A-Z! :-( Something tells me it's rime I got that new PC I've been promising myself!! Cheers, Liz, who may be absent for a while sorting herself out... Quoting Lyn Boothman <annys@boothman27.fsnet.co.uk>: > Karen, > > He must have lived or had his business premises in the 'yard' of an inn > called the George in Southwark, or in an area called that which had > previously been the yard of the the inn. The yard in this case could be > quite a large area with stabling and outbuildings. As James was a > carrier this was the London end of his business, so he ran wagons or > whatever from Surrey to the George. > > Lyn B >

Dear Karen, Lyn and Liz I am not sure but I think the George was an old coaching inn arranged around a square courtyard. My father used to repair a cash register there many years ago now. I'm raking back through my memory now though and I could be wrong. I think that Dad said there was a gallery along the upper storey around the yard and have a feeling that this was for potential passengers to wait for their coaches. If it's still there, then Google may have some information on it as it could be unique. If it is this one, then it was lucky to escape the WW2 bombing which was aimed at the docks. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Karen Bennett" <calleja@chariot.net.au> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2004 5:37 AM Subject: [OEL] old will again > thanks liz > > could I ask for help with another word in the third line > > of Surrey and of the Georgeyard ?? > > this is repeated in line 25 > > the Georgeyard afoursaid > > am i right in reading it as the Georgeyard and any ideas what that could be > thanks again > karen > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > OLD-ENGLISH Web Page > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > >

According to a book I am reading on Scottish history, the basis of land tenure in the 17th Century for junior branches of "the chiefly houses" in the clan territories of the Highlands, was "usually either a tack, wadset or a feu. A tack was a lease. A wadset was the Scots term for a mortgage. It was often converted into a feu, which meant virtual ownership in exchange for a lump sum annual payment to a feudal superior who retained certain powers of control..." ""... the clan gentry, often known generically as tacksmen..." I found that very interesting, because I had never heard the term "tacksmen" before. It seems reasonable enough to presume that the words "feudal" and "fee" came from "feu", and I also wonder if our word "tax" might conceivably have come from "tacks", in the same general sense of payments for an income-producing area of land. What does the Team think? Also, is there any modern cognate of "wadset"? Gordon

Many many thanks again Elizabeth - I have replied to the List so that anyone else can also see your remarks - you are surely an expert from my point of view though - thanks again Regards Narelle > about the insertions written in the margin, I believe both the entries > contain the same words. The <> are used to bracket the insertions. > > Line 14 therefore reads in full: > > "J.G.D. and his heirs Subject nev[erthe]less to red[emptio]n > > <or [?] for recon- > [veying the] same to the > s[ai]d Thos H. his heirs & ass[igns] or > [otherw]ise as he or they > [?] & direct> > > on pay[men]t to him" > > and Line 23 (the third last) reads: > > "the s[ai]d Jas. Geo. Doyle & his heirs Subject <nev[erthe]less> to red[emptio]n > > <or [..?..] for reconveying > the same to the s[ai]d Thos > H. his heirs & ass[igns] or > otherwise as he or they > [?] & direct>" > > Perhaps someone else can have a go at the missing word visible at the > beginning of the second insertion in the margin. Looks like - - p - - - - - > or it could be an f. A lot of the smudging went away with manipulation > in a graphics package. > > But I'm afraid that's my lot!! > > Cheers, > > Liz in Melbourne > > ______________________________

Owo - that was so very very quick Elizabeth - I have forwarded ( privately) your informative reply onto my 'cuzins on Ann Forbe's Forum so they can sink their teeth into it - many thanks once again - Regards Narelle > Hi Narelle, > > These are my thoughts. The line numbers refer to the original document. > I hope this makes sense - I thought of typing the whole thing but then it > was too hard to show what I have altered. > > Line 3 ends "N.S.Wales Esquire" > Line 4 starts "of the 1st part" > Line 5 ends "River Hawkesbury af' [aforesaid] Farmer of" > Line 14 "J.G.D. and his heirs Subject nev[erthe]less to red[emptio]n on > > Cheers, > > Liz in Melbourne > > > > On Saturday, March 13, 2004 5:37 PM, Narelle [SMTP:narelle@annforbes.org] > wrote: > > It is my understanding that some of you on this List may be able to help > some friends of mine decipher an old document - it is located at: > > http://www.annforbes.org/hux1.html > > > ______________________________

In message <000001c409c6$aa25e000$76d04d51@lynhome>, Lyn Boothman <annys@boothman27.fsnet.co.uk> writes >Eve >It costs to download the will but once you have paid you get the link to >where it is for, I think, 7 days. Obviously Gary has paid and has given >us that link. I don't think the PRO enviaged anyone passing on their private link. Just as well, or it would be stopped. -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

Well done! Minor changes to Line 1, 2 and 17 (a couple of initial capital letters and a missing word) and completion of lines 9 & 10, 14 & 15. 1 Charlotte within twelve months after my decease such payments to be 2 free from legacy duty And I hereby declare that the legacies of one hundred 9 give devise and bequeath all estates vested in me as transfer or mortgage 10 unto my said son Albert subject to the trusts and [?] affecting the same 14 involuntary losses or misfortunes nor the one for the other of them and 15 that they may reimburse each other all expenses incurred in the execution 17 estate In witness whereof I have at the foot hereof set my hand this fourth The missing word in line 10 - bequests? or better, legacies? Cheers, Liz in Melbourne, back out into the garden... On Sunday, March 14, 2004 3:20 PM, Karen Bennett [SMTP:calleja@chariot.net.au] wrote: > hello list > I have been watching with interest help given on garys post re old wills, I have also downloaded a will this is the link to it, hope it gets through and will still work > > http://www.documentsonline.pro.gov.uk/download.asp?T=103047&S=I/04/00099 757V&E=calleja@chariot.net.au > > this being my first attempt at reading old wills would someone please check over my interpretation of last 18 lines on 1st page, cannot quite read lines 14 and 15 > > any help much appreciated > karen > adelaide > > > 1 charlotte within twelve months after my decease such payments to be > 2 free from legacy duty And i hereby declare that the legacies of one hundred > 3 pounds and two hundred pounds given by this my will to my said > 4 daughter shall be respectively independent of any present or future > 5 husband and that her receipt alone shall be a sufficient discharge for the > 6 same And all the rest residue and remainder of my real and > 7 personal estate I give devise and bequeath unto my said wife my said > 8 son Albert and my said daughter to be equally divided between them I > 9 give devise and bequeath all estates > 10 unto my said son Albert subject to the trusts > 11 And I appoint my said wife and my said son Albert Executrix and > 12 Executor of this my will and hereby declare that they shall be > 13 answerable only for such money as they shall actually receive and not for > 14 involuntary losses or misfortunes > 15 that they may reimburse > 16 of this my will such expenses to be paid out of the residue of my personal > 17 estate In whereof I have at the foot hereof set my hand this fourth > 18 day of March one thousand eight hundred and forty eight >

thanks liz could I ask for help with another word in the third line of Surrey and of the Georgeyard ?? this is repeated in line 25 the Georgeyard afoursaid am i right in reading it as the Georgeyard and any ideas what that could be thanks again karen

hello list I have been watching with interest help given on garys post re old wills, I have also downloaded a will this is the link to it, hope it gets through and will still work http://www.documentsonline.pro.gov.uk/download.asp?T=103047&S=I/04/00099757V&E=calleja@chariot.net.au this being my first attempt at reading old wills would someone please check over my interpretation of last 18 lines on 1st page, cannot quite read lines 14 and 15 any help much appreciated karen adelaide 1 charlotte within twelve months after my decease such payments to be 2 free from legacy duty And i hereby declare that the legacies of one hundred 3 pounds and two hundred pounds given by this my will to my said 4 daughter shall be respectively independent of any present or future 5 husband and that her receipt alone shall be a sufficient discharge for the 6 same And all the rest residue and remainder of my real and 7 personal estate I give devise and bequeath unto my said wife my said 8 son Albert and my said daughter to be equally divided between them I 9 give devise and bequeath all estates 10 unto my said son Albert subject to the trusts 11 And I appoint my said wife and my said son Albert Executrix and 12 Executor of this my will and hereby declare that they shall be 13 answerable only for such money as they shall actually receive and not for 14 involuntary losses or misfortunes 15 that they may reimburse 16 of this my will such expenses to be paid out of the residue of my personal 17 estate In whereof I have at the foot hereof set my hand this fourth 18 day of March one thousand eight hundred and forty eight

Karen, He must have lived or had his business premises in the 'yard' of an inn called the George in Southwark, or in an area called that which had previously been the yard of the the inn. The yard in this case could be quite a large area with stabling and outbuildings. As James was a carrier this was the London end of his business, so he ran wagons or whatever from Surrey to the George. Lyn B

Eve It costs to download the will but once you have paid you get the link to where it is for, I think, 7 days. Obviously Gary has paid and has given us that link. Lyn B

That's what I initially thought but to my surprise it worked!! I'm not sure the N.A. realise that but for the current purpose I have downloaded a copy. I will delete as soon as Gary is OK. Liz in Melbourne On Sunday, March 14, 2004 12:00 PM, Eve McLaughlin [SMTP:eve@varneys.demon.co.uk] wrote: > In message <1a4.2121f7f6.2d84db2c@aol.com>, GaryIvoDe@aol.com writes > >http://www.documentsonline.pro.gov.uk/download.asp?T=108234&S=I/04/00105000W&E > >=GaryIvoDe@aol.com > > >can make this out but I thought I'd try. After reaching > >the > >site, just click DOWNLOAD. > > It costs 3 pounds to download wills from this site > > > > -- > Eve McLaughlin > > Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians > Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > To UNSUBSCRIBE from list mode -- > Send the one word UNSUBSCRIBE to > OLD-ENGLISH-L-request@rootsweb.com

Hi Gary, Here are the first few lines. 1 In the name of God amen the Fifthe day of Novembre 2 in the fifteenth yere of the Raigne of our Soveraigne [last 3 words ruled out] of our Soveraigne 3 James by the grace of god kyng of England Frannce and Ireland Defend[e]r [Page3] 4 of the faithe [?] and of Scotland the one and Fiftithe I Mary Radcleife sometime 5 one of the gentlewomen of her late Maiesties <honorable> privie Chamber being at the 6 present thankes be to god [ruled out] Almightie god in good and perfect memorye I do by theise 7 presents thus make and ordayne this my last will and testament in manner and 8 forme following that is to saye: First I recommend my soule into the hands of god 9 my Savyoure and Redemer and my bodie I will to be buryed in the parish churche 10 of that place where I shall fortune to departe this life. And I will that there 11 shalbe bestowed by my Executor hereunder named amongst the poore people of the 12 saied parish where I shall decease the somme of twentie pounds to be distributed 13 amongest them according to the discretion of my saied Executor. And moreover I will 14 that my saied Executor shall cause or procure to be made and set up in or near suche 15 place where I shalbe buried a comelie and convenient Monument in Stone shewing 16 bothe the race and birthe whereof I am descended and allso the Roome[?] and place where 17 I lyved and served under her saied late Maiestie. And furthermore I do by theise 18 presents will and bequeathe unto my brother Sir Edward Radcliffe knighte and his 19 assignes for and during his naturall life one yerelie Annuitie of Fiftie poundes by 20 the yere to be payed by my Executor fourth of suche goodes and chattells as I shall 21 leave at the tyme of my Decease unto hym the saied Sir Edward and his Assignes 22 yerelie at the feast of the Annunciacon of oure blessed Ladie Sainte Marye 23 the virgin yerelie and St Michael the Archanngell by equall and even partions I could go on but perhaps you would like to try again yourself, given this as a guide. See also the sample alphabet at http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/handwriting.html You may well be surprised at how much you can read with a little practice. Of course if you are truly stumped, please ask for more help! Good luck, Cheers, Liz in Melbourne, heading back into the garden... On Sunday, March 14, 2004 8:46 AM, GaryIvoDe@aol.com [SMTP:GaryIvoDe@aol.com] wrote: > http://www.documentsonline.pro.gov.uk/download.asp?T=108234&S=I/04/00105000W&E > =GaryIvoDe@aol.com > > There is a will online at the above URL which is indecipherable to me except > for > six or seven words. The penmanship is beautiful but..... > > I doubt that anyone can make this out but I thought I'd try. After reaching > the > site, just click DOWNLOAD. > > I'll repeat the URL in case Rootsweb deletes it: > > http://www.documentsonline.pro.gov.uk/download.asp? > T=108234&S=I/04/00105000W&E-GaryIvoDe@aol.com > > Gary Radcliffe >

Simple answer For about a week after its purchase the document image is held in a temporary storage area, where it can be downloaded as often as wished, and at a time convenient to its purchaser. Then the system deletes it and the only way to view is to buy again. <g> Somehow I do not think that NA envisaged this sort of shared access, although given the circumstances it seems pretty harmless this time. Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: "Elizabeth Agar" <emagar@hotkey.net.au> Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2004 1:59 AM > That's what I initially thought but to my surprise it worked!! I'm not sure the > N.A. realise that but for the current purpose I have downloaded a copy. I > will delete as soon as Gary is OK. > > Liz in Melbourne > > On Sunday, March 14, 2004 12:00 PM, Eve McLaughlin [SMTP:eve@varneys.demon.co.uk] wrote: > > > > In message <1a4.2121f7f6.2d84db2c@aol.com>, GaryIvoDe@aol.com writes > > > > > > http://www.documentsonline.pro.gov.uk/download.asp?T=108234&S=I/04/00105000W &E=GaryIvoDe@aol.com > > > After reaching thesite, just click DOWNLOAD. > > > > It costs 3 pounds to download wills from this site > > > > Eve McLaughlin