Just a note about translation. According to my Latin dictionary, nepos, nepotis = grandson: descendant: spendrift. In the English to Latin side, nephew is given as either fratris filius or sororia filius, which, in my opinion, is a little bit of a copout. I feel that there should be a wholly dedicated word for the translation of nephew. So, you pays your money and takes your choice folks! Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Family Lindley" <john@lindley-york.freeserve.co.uk> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Cc: <norman.lee1@virgin.net>; <cgp@medievalgenealogy.org.uk>; <mjcl@btinternet.com>; <roy.cox@btinternet.com> Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2004 2:14 PM Subject: Re: [OEL] Indecipherable marginal note in probate book > Thanks to Audrey, Martyn, June & Roy and Chris for help re: the above. > > I take Audrey's point about the possible lack of precision about the term > 'nepotus', and am grateful for the suggestions from you all re: Nicholas or > Arthur, as well as the missing word and general interpretation. > > Just for background, there are a few Middleham (YKS) events concerning and > Arthur Lindley between 1612 and 1619 (so I'm veering towards him), while > Nicholas occurs in the wider family (including the ones who became merchants > and then lawyers in Hull, York and the West Riding). > > Where this Arthur fits in exactly is another mystery (Jeromina was Henry's > second wife and I think there was no issue), but the name re-occurs amongst > Yorkshire Lindleys periodically. > > Best wishes > > John L > Wigginton > NRY >

-----Original Message----- From: mjcl [mailto:mjcl@btinternet.com] [The clogged bit seems to have been resolved - i.e. the heavy wooden block but the ploged remains a bit in the air at the moment! Still any little help is gratefully received.] Passing thought, but Sweet's Anglo Saxon Student Dictionary gives 'Plog' (long o) as a measure of land. Over the centuries might this have been locally adapted to mean being restricted to an (small) area of land? So, 'clogged and ploged' weighted with a wooden block in a small yard - presumably with a sign outside 'beware of ye dogge' :-) Geoffers Charlbury, Oxfordshire

Thanks to Audrey, Martyn, June & Roy and Chris for help re: the above. I take Audrey's point about the possible lack of precision about the term 'nepotus', and am grateful for the suggestions from you all re: Nicholas or Arthur, as well as the missing word and general interpretation. Just for background, there are a few Middleham (YKS) events concerning and Arthur Lindley between 1612 and 1619 (so I'm veering towards him), while Nicholas occurs in the wider family (including the ones who became merchants and then lawyers in Hull, York and the West Riding). Where this Arthur fits in exactly is another mystery (Jeromina was Henry's second wife and I think there was no issue), but the name re-occurs amongst Yorkshire Lindleys periodically. Best wishes John L Wigginton NRY

Good Morning Again - I've had a look around everything I have also made a couple of web searches - everything points to the word meaning "plugged" but I can't say this with ANY certainty! Could the letter 'o' be a version of letter 'u' or whatever? Kind Regards June & Roy http://www.btinternet.com/~roy.cox/index.htm -----Original Message----- From: mjcl [mailto:mjcl@btinternet.com] Sent: Monday, March 15, 2004 8:42 PM To: OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com Subject: RE: [OEL] Clogged and Ploged Thanks very much to Carla, Beth, Roy, Liz and Eve for help with the "Clogged and Ploged" The clogged bit seems to have been resolved - i.e. the heavy wooden block but the ploged remains a bit in the air at the moment! Still any little help is gratefully received. Regards, Martyn ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== OLD-ENGLISH Web Page http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/

Chris, I have had a look again. I agree the "Nichus" was a bit optimistic, and having looked carefuly at it, it looks more like "Arthuro". However there does seem to be a stray mark at the side of the first letter which led me to believe it was originally an N. If that still holds good, then the name would appear to be "Nathuro". However, is this an abbreviation of a known forename? As regards the mystery word I totally agree with your suggestion as this would make sense. It would appear to be "effum" with a mark above signifying the abbreviation and omission of letters. Martyn Chris Phillips <cgp@medievalgenealogy.org.uk> wrote: Martyn Loveys wrote: << Appears to be - mense decembris 1619 undecimo die emanavit comissio Nichus Lindley nepoti &c fre dicti def Ad ami'strand bona iura et Cred dic def iuxta tenorem et [? ----] pred testi per domina[m] Jeromima[m] Lyndley def non plene admi'strate de bene &c Iurat >> I must say you've deciphered a lot more than I could manage. I wonder if the mystery word could be an abbreviated form of "effectum", "effictum", or something similar. I think the relationship to the deceased must be "nepoti ex f[rat]re" - nephew through the brother. The only problem is that I can't read the name as Nicholas, no matter how hard I try. It should be in the dative case, so I think the final letter is clearly an 'o'. The last few letters look more like "guro" than anything else. And is the first letter really 'N'? Looking at it closely, could it be an 'A' followed by a strange sort of flourish? I wonder if this could be a rare Christian name perhaps coined from a surname, in which case it will probably have to be tracked down in other records. I did try searching the PRO catalogue for "L*ndl*y", with the limits 1580-1670. It turned up quite a lot that could be relevant, including an inquisition post mortem described as follows: C 142/317/96 Lindley, Henry, knight: York 8 James I. If this is the right man, it would name his heir (presumably the same nephew, unless Henry had children under age). It would also be in Latin, though. Chris Phillips ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== To contact the list administrator: OLD-ENGLISH-admin@rootsweb.com

Good Morning Chris - Not a Latin scholar but wishing I had paid a little more attention at school! However - my record interpreter which lists Latin forms of English surnames has two for consideration? Each Latin form in the list is preceded by the word 'de' meaning I assume - of? 1. de Landalis = Landal, Landels 2. de Langdon or Landona = Langdon The whole A to Z list is on my web site http://www.btinternet.com/~roy.cox/definitions/latin/surname.htm Kind Regards June & Roy http://www.btinternet.com/~roy.cox/index.htm -----Original Message----- From: Chris Phillips [mailto:cgp@medievalgenealogy.org.uk] Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2004 9:57 AM To: OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [OEL] Indecipherable marginal note in probate book Martyn Loveys wrote: << Appears to be - mense decembris 1619 undecimo die emanavit comissio Nichus Lindley nepoti &c fre dicti def Ad ami'strand bona iura et Cred dic def iuxta tenorem et [? ----] pred testi per domina[m] Jeromima[m] Lyndley def non plene admi'strate de bene &c Iurat >> I must say you've deciphered a lot more than I could manage. I wonder if the mystery word could be an abbreviated form of "effectum", "effictum", or something similar. I think the relationship to the deceased must be "nepoti ex f[rat]re" - nephew through the brother. The only problem is that I can't read the name as Nicholas, no matter how hard I try. It should be in the dative case, so I think the final letter is clearly an 'o'. The last few letters look more like "guro" than anything else. And is the first letter really 'N'? Looking at it closely, could it be an 'A' followed by a strange sort of flourish? I wonder if this could be a rare Christian name perhaps coined from a surname, in which case it will probably have to be tracked down in other records. I did try searching the PRO catalogue for "L*ndl*y", with the limits 1580-1670. It turned up quite a lot that could be relevant, including an inquisition post mortem described as follows: C 142/317/96 Lindley, Henry, knight: York 8 James I. If this is the right man, it would name his heir (presumably the same nephew, unless Henry had children under age). It would also be in Latin, though. Chris Phillips ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== To contact the list administrator: OLD-ENGLISH-admin@rootsweb.com

Martyn Loveys wrote: << Appears to be - mense decembris 1619 undecimo die emanavit comissio Nichus Lindley nepoti &c fre dicti def Ad ami'strand bona iura et Cred dic def iuxta tenorem et [? ----] pred testi per domina[m] Jeromima[m] Lyndley def non plene admi'strate de bene &c Iurat >> I must say you've deciphered a lot more than I could manage. I wonder if the mystery word could be an abbreviated form of "effectum", "effictum", or something similar. I think the relationship to the deceased must be "nepoti ex f[rat]re" - nephew through the brother. The only problem is that I can't read the name as Nicholas, no matter how hard I try. It should be in the dative case, so I think the final letter is clearly an 'o'. The last few letters look more like "guro" than anything else. And is the first letter really 'N'? Looking at it closely, could it be an 'A' followed by a strange sort of flourish? I wonder if this could be a rare Christian name perhaps coined from a surname, in which case it will probably have to be tracked down in other records. I did try searching the PRO catalogue for "L*ndl*y", with the limits 1580-1670. It turned up quite a lot that could be relevant, including an inquisition post mortem described as follows: C 142/317/96 Lindley, Henry, knight: York 8 James I. If this is the right man, it would name his heir (presumably the same nephew, unless Henry had children under age). It would also be in Latin, though. Chris Phillips

I realize this is not Old English, per se, but I have an 1880 census image in which I can't make out a person's middle initial. Part of the reason is that it is somewhat faded. Can anyone point me to a resource that might help interpret the census image for me? David McCarley ICQ: 75885428 AOL: Opv1419 MSN: Opv_m YAHOO: Opv1419

Hello, I think it may have something to do with the fact that the original message was sent using Unicode formatting rather than the more usual Windows formatting. I don't really know what that means, except that some characters appear strangely when written in Unicode and "read" in Windows. Here is the quote in the more usual formatting: Researchers at the National Archives made the revelation yesterday in their family history magazine, Ancestors. A spokeswoman said: “Diot was a Christian name for girls in the 14th Century, short for Dionisia. “And we have discovered that one girl with the surname Coke was christened Diot in 1379.” As you will see, the "gobbledy-gook" turns out to be speech-marks ("inverted commas"). I hope this helps. David Lamb (Paignton, Devon, UK) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Phil Stevens" <joe2phil@nwlink.com> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, March 15, 2004 9:11 PM Subject: Re: [OEL] Diot COKE christened 1379 (honest!) > Hello ?? Pete ?? , What type of keyboard are you using ? , What is the > Letter / word in this " spokeswoman said: “Diot was a Christian name for > girls in the " Just after the ' said : is a ' Garbled Mess in my Mailbox , > what is before Diot ?? , I wonder am I missing a Font in my System OR what ? > , Phil > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <NorthantsBrowns@aol.com> > To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, March 15, 2004 9:37 AM > Subject: [OEL] Diot COKE christened 1379 (honest!) > > > > Dear List > > This was posted to another list by my friend Doreen in Canada. It > apparently > > appeared in the UK newspaper (more of a comic) The Sun. > > I just had to pass it on to the list that deals with unusual names!!! > > Pete Brown > > > > *************************************** > > Researchers at the National Archives made the revelation yesterday in > their > > family history magazine, Ancestors. > > > > A spokeswoman said: “Diot was a Christian name for girls in the 14th > Century, > > short for Dionisia. > > > > “And we have discovered that one girl with the surname Coke was > christened > > Diot in 1379.â€� > > > > > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > > To UNSUBSCRIBE from list mode -- > > Send the one word UNSUBSCRIBE to > > OLD-ENGLISH-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > ______________________________

Dear All I've had a short glance at what Martyn has made of this marginal text. I think it is as follows: 11th December 1619 the administration of the goods of the deceased was granted to Nicholas Lindley, grandson of the brother of the deceased. It also says something like these were clearly not previously administered well for the now deceased Jeromima Lyndley. This is just the gist of what I believe it means. I have no idea of what the missing word says. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "mjcl" <mjcl@btinternet.com> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2004 1:38 PM Subject: Re: [OEL] Indecipherable marginal note in probate book > John, > > Appears to be - > > mense decembris 1619 > undecimo die emanavit > comissio Nichus Lindley > nepoti &c fre dicti def > Ad ami'strand bona > iura et Cred dic def > iuxta tenorem et [? ----] > pred testi per domina[m] > Jeromima[m] Lyndley def > non plene admi'strate de > bene &c Iurat > > > Hope that this is of some assistance > > Regards > > Martyn Loveys > > Family Lindley <john@lindley-york.freeserve.co.uk> wrote: > > Hello > > The PCC probate of Henry Lyndley's in 1609 will has an indecipherable > marginal note (in Latin - apologies). > > Henry died in 1609 and probate was granted to Jeronima / Jeronyma his wife > who in turn died in 1611. Both were buried at Middleham in Yorkshire. The > note seems to relate to the administration of goods and mentions another > Lindley (line three of the note). I am trying to determine the 'other > Lindley' and the precise purpose of the note. > > I have set up a temporary website at: > > http://mysite.freeserve.com/genealogy_problems > > The picture on the second page (click on "Marginal Note") is slightly larger > than that on the front page. Immediately below the note, another > (unrelated) will starts. > > Any help appreciated. > > John Lindley > Wigginton > NRY > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > To UNSUBSCRIBE from list mode -- > Send the one word UNSUBSCRIBE to > OLD-ENGLISH-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > OLD-ENGLISH Web Page > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > >

In message <20040316133801.70785.qmail@web86001.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>, mjcl <mjcl@btinternet.com> writes >John, > >Appears to be - > >mense decembris 1619 >undecimo die emanavit >comissio Nichus Lindley >nepoti &c fre dicti def >Ad ami'strand bona >iura et Cred dic def >iuxta tenorem et [? ----] >pred testi per domina[m] >Jeromima[m] Lyndley def >non plene admi'strate de >bene &c Iurat > Fairly standard probate clause on 12 December 1619, There appeared Nicholas Lindley, (nephew ?by the brother ) of the said deceased; to whom administration of sworn goods of deceased was committed after the tenor (and intention) of the said will which by the lady /madam Jeronima Lyndley, deceased had not been fully disposed of So the first executor, Jeronima Lyndley, deceased, either fell down on the job or died before it was completed, and her next of kin took over -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

In message <005e01c40b3c$d678c9c0$2dd0fc3e@oemcomputer>, "norman.lee1" <norman.lee1@virgin.net> writes >Sorry Eve but that's surely 'wodge' not wedge. not as scripted - same word, of course -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

John, Appears to be - mense decembris 1619 undecimo die emanavit comissio Nichus Lindley nepoti &c fre dicti def Ad ami'strand bona iura et Cred dic def iuxta tenorem et [? ----] pred testi per domina[m] Jeromima[m] Lyndley def non plene admi'strate de bene &c Iurat Hope that this is of some assistance Regards Martyn Loveys Family Lindley <john@lindley-york.freeserve.co.uk> wrote: Hello The PCC probate of Henry Lyndley's in 1609 will has an indecipherable marginal note (in Latin - apologies). Henry died in 1609 and probate was granted to Jeronima / Jeronyma his wife who in turn died in 1611. Both were buried at Middleham in Yorkshire. The note seems to relate to the administration of goods and mentions another Lindley (line three of the note). I am trying to determine the 'other Lindley' and the precise purpose of the note. I have set up a temporary website at: http://mysite.freeserve.com/genealogy_problems The picture on the second page (click on "Marginal Note") is slightly larger than that on the front page. Immediately below the note, another (unrelated) will starts. Any help appreciated. John Lindley Wigginton NRY ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== To UNSUBSCRIBE from list mode -- Send the one word UNSUBSCRIBE to OLD-ENGLISH-L-request@rootsweb.com

Hello The PCC probate of Henry Lyndley's in 1609 will has an indecipherable marginal note (in Latin - apologies). Henry died in 1609 and probate was granted to Jeronima / Jeronyma his wife who in turn died in 1611. Both were buried at Middleham in Yorkshire. The note seems to relate to the administration of goods and mentions another Lindley (line three of the note). I am trying to determine the 'other Lindley' and the precise purpose of the note. I have set up a temporary website at: http://mysite.freeserve.com/genealogy_problems The picture on the second page (click on "Marginal Note") is slightly larger than that on the front page. Immediately below the note, another (unrelated) will starts. Any help appreciated. John Lindley Wigginton NRY

Off topic I know but Peter Sellers played Doctor Pratt. The cast included a huge array of English comic genius: to name a few Peter Cook, Dudley Moore, Leonard Rossiter and Tony Hancock and many more. For a full cast list visit: http://uk.imdb.com/title/tt0061204/fullcredits Steve

Sorry Eve but that's surely 'wodge' not wedge. At least that's the word I was brought up with. You get a wodge of cake too. It's all the same for a lump of something. The contents of the wallet often gets shortened to 'wad' pronounced wod. Regarding tacks and intakes. I think this is again a case of similar sounding words with different meanings. Intakes, often shortened in documents to tacks or taks, refer to land taken in from the waste which happened at various times but mostly in the 18th century. The tudor enclosures are the ones most noted in inventories though. As an intake was generally land leased out to tenents but could be passed on in wills, they figured as chattel land, not freehold. This was not only the case in Lancashire but certainly occurred in Cheshire and Derbyshire. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eve McLaughlin" <eve@varneys.demon.co.uk> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, March 15, 2004 12:17 PM Subject: Re: [OEL] Scottish tacks > In message <008101c40a4f$baedfe70$53f0a1cd@preferred>, Gordon Barlow > <barlow@candw.ky> writes > >According to a book I am reading on Scottish history, the basis of land tenure > >in the 17th Century for junior branches of "the chiefly houses" in the clan > >territories of the Highlands, was "usually either a tack, wadset or a feu. A > >tack was a lease. A wadset was the Scots term for a mortgage. It was often > >converted into a feu, which meant virtual ownership in exchange for a lump sum > >annual payment to a feudal superior who retained certain powers of control..." > >""... the clan gentry, often known generically as tacksmen..." > > > >I found that very interesting, because I had never heard the term "tacksmen" > >before. It seems reasonable enough to presume that the words "feudal" and "fee" > >came from "feu", and I also wonder if our word "tax" might conceivably have come > >from "tacks", > It is tempting, isn't it? > 'tak' in Scots = take, and that is exactly what the income tax men do. > But the word tack (or intake in Lancashire) for a piece of property > usually means it was land cleared and cultivated, taken (in) from the > surrounding forest or moor and very often enclosed or fenced against > other further encroachments. Tax is directly from taxare, Latin, > meaning to value, charge and handle. > >? > > > >Also, is there any modern cognate of "wadset"? > > > Something you put down as a pledge. The only very remote thing I can > thing of is 'wedge' used as Cockney slang for a fist full of notes (or > cash) put down as a bet. But somehow, you can't see Arfur Daley seeking > for a word from Scots law terms to express his meaning. > > -- > Eve McLaughlin > > Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians > Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > OLD-ENGLISH Web Page > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ >

There's another picture at http://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/scripts/nthandbook.dll?ACTION=PROPERTY&P ROPERTYID=103 Which is the National Trust website. The National Trust might be interested in your ancestor's will, the business he was running from there etc, and equally might have other records which mention him as being in business ... Always worth a try. Lyn B

Thanks very much to Carla, Beth, Roy, Liz and Eve for help with the "Clogged and Ploged" The clogged bit seems to have been resolved - i.e. the heavy wooden block but the ploged remains a bit in the air at the moment! Still any little help is gratefully received. Regards, Martyn

Here we are again - WADSET: Used chiefly in law, - pledge (land or other heritable property) in security, mortgage - Evidence of this from the 4th to 18th century. Kind Regards June & Roy http://www.btinternet.com/~roy.cox/index.htm -----Original Message----- From: Gordon Barlow [mailto:barlow@candw.ky] Sent: Monday, March 15, 2004 5:38 AM To: OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [OEL] Scottish tacks According to a book I am reading on Scottish history, the basis of land tenure in the 17th Century for junior branches of "the chiefly houses" in the clan territories of the Highlands, was "usually either a tack, wadset or a feu. A tack was a lease. A wadset was the Scots term for a mortgage. It was often converted into a feu, which meant virtual ownership in exchange for a lump sum annual payment to a feudal superior who retained certain powers of control..." ""... the clan gentry, often known generically as tacksmen..." I found that very interesting, because I had never heard the term "tacksmen" before. It seems reasonable enough to presume that the words "feudal" and "fee" came from "feu", and I also wonder if our word "tax" might conceivably have come from "tacks", in the same general sense of payments for an income-producing area of land. What does the Team think? Also, is there any modern cognate of "wadset"? Gordon ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== OLD-ENGLISH Web Page http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/

> >Also, is there any modern cognate of "wadset"? > > > Something you put down as a pledge. The only very remote thing I can > thing of is 'wedge' used as Cockney slang for a fist full of notes (or > cash) put down as a bet. But somehow, you can't see Arfur Daley seeking > for a word from Scots law terms to express his meaning. > Eve McLaughlin > Thanks, Eve. No I can't! But I guess the word (and its variant "wodge") could conceivably have survived in dialect from the same source as "wad-set". We do speak of a wad of money. All most interesting. Gordon