Dear Roy Hilda Boswell's book says that this man was going somewhere else, not Strawberry Fair. I've looked it up in my next door neighbour's Opie and I can't find it there either. Hilda Boswell has gone walk about and I'm still looking for her. She may have been lost in a house move. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roy" <roy.cox@btinternet.com> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, March 19, 2004 11:17 AM Subject: RE: [OEL] nursery rhymes > Good Morning - > > How about this from me 'olde Somerset/Dorset family lore? > > As I were goin' a Strawberry Fair [Fare?] > I met a man, 'oo warn't there > I met'n there agin today, > I do so wish ee'd goa way! > > Kind Regards > > June & Roy > http://www.btinternet.com/~roy.cox/index.htm > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Roberts [mailto:mikeroberts@mweb.co.za] > Sent: Friday, March 19, 2004 6:41 AM > To: OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [OEL] nursery rhymes > > Hi, > > You may be wrong in assuming that Curly locks is a girl. Accordiong to an > M.G.M. documentary the original Curly locks of this rhyme was Charles 11, > although no documentary evidence has been brought forward to support that. > > If you really want to impress your Grandson I suggest you get a copy of "The > Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes" by Iona and Peter Opie cost about > £25.00. It includes over 500 rhymes, songs and riddles. > > Best Wishes, > > Mike > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "norman.lee1" <norman.lee1@virgin.net> > To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 7:45 PM > Subject: [OEL] nursery rhymes > > > Hello List > > I must be becoming known as the 'nursery rhyme woman' by now. (It's all my > grandson's fault!) > > My question and discussion point is the following rhyme: > > 'Curly locks, curly locks wilt thou be mine? > Thou shalt not wash dishes nor yet feed the swine > But sit upon cushions and sew a fine seam > And feed upon strawberries, sugar and cream.' > > At what date do list members think this rhyme was written or performed? I > think the main dating point would be the import of sugar plus the use of it > amongst the minor gentry. Only the more wealthy people could afford > cushions. Around my way, only the rich people owned pigs too. This girl is > clearly being promised a house with servants. I think it may be late 17th > century or sometime in the 18th. So far, I have found no-one in the 16th or > 17th centuries who had sugar in their probate inventories but, of course, > processed foodstuffs, apart from those that would keep a long time, were > generally not shown. > > So, anyone any knowledge on this one? > > Audrey > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > THREADED archives for OLD-ENGLISH: > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > THREADED archives for OLD-ENGLISH: > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > OLD-ENGLISH Web Page > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > >

Hello Michael I've actually been trying to trace a copy of this book in the library, with no success as yet. I'll have another go at it. I borrowed the Opie Oxford Nursery Rhyme collection from my next door neighbour, mistakenly thinking that was the book you mention. However, I think the Hilda Boswell book of nursery rhymes is much better. The illustrations are lovely and it has a wide range of them. It is now, unfortunately, out of print. Listening to tapes and CDs over the last ten years (other grandchildren) I've been intrigued to hear further verses to Humpty Dumpty and several others, clearly written later I think. The last verse of Humpty Dumpty on the tape my elder granddaughter had says Humpty Dumpty numbered the pieces to help the King's Men. As I believe Humpty Dumpty was a canon involved in a civil war battle at Colchester, I have my doubts on that one. I can, in my mind's eye though, see the King's men gathered around a massive potbellied canon that fell from the town walls, broken into several pieces, anxiously trying to fix it and haul it back again to continue to help with the defence of the town. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Roberts" <mikeroberts@mweb.co.za> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, March 19, 2004 6:41 AM Subject: Re: [OEL] nursery rhymes > Hi, > > You may be wrong in assuming that Curly locks is a girl. Accordiong to an > M.G.M. documentary the original Curly locks of this rhyme was Charles 11, > although no documentary evidence has been brought forward to support that. > > If you really want to impress your Grandson I suggest you get a copy of > "The Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes" by Iona and Peter Opie cost about > £25.00. It includes over 500 rhymes, songs and riddles. > > Best Wishes, > > Mike > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "norman.lee1" <norman.lee1@virgin.net> > To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 7:45 PM > Subject: [OEL] nursery rhymes > > > Hello List > > I must be becoming known as the 'nursery rhyme woman' by now. (It's all my > grandson's fault!) > > My question and discussion point is the following rhyme: > > 'Curly locks, curly locks wilt thou be mine? > Thou shalt not wash dishes nor yet feed the swine > But sit upon cushions and sew a fine seam > And feed upon strawberries, sugar and cream.' > > At what date do list members think this rhyme was written or performed? I > think the main dating point would be the import of sugar plus the use of it > amongst the minor gentry. Only the more wealthy people could afford > cushions. Around my way, only the rich people owned pigs too. This girl is > clearly being promised a house with servants. I think it may be late 17th > century or sometime in the 18th. So far, I have found no-one in the 16th or > 17th centuries who had sugar in their probate inventories but, of course, > processed foodstuffs, apart from those that would keep a long time, were > generally not shown. > > So, anyone any knowledge on this one? > > Audrey > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > THREADED archives for OLD-ENGLISH: > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > THREADED archives for OLD-ENGLISH: > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > >

Dear David Please accept my apologies for my reply to you in part of my previous message to the list. Of course there are dishes in the rhyme! I have a feeling that they were around before sugar was in general use, albeit as a luxury. I have certainly transcribed dishes in 17th century inventories. But dishes are mentioned as Curly Locks isn't going to wash them, is she? Sorry, very much. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Pott" <davpott@hotmail.com> To: "norman.lee1" <norman.lee1@virgin.net>; <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 8:43 PM Subject: Re: [OEL] nursery rhymes > Audrey, > > Couldn't the reference to dishes also help date it? > > David > > The Beaver Inn, Ashford, Kent. > > : > > > > 'Curly locks, curly locks wilt thou be mine? > > Thou shalt not wash dishes nor yet feed the swine > > But sit upon cushions and sew a fine seam > > And feed upon strawberries, sugar and cream.' >

Good Morning - How about this from me 'olde Somerset/Dorset family lore? As I were goin' a Strawberry Fair [Fare?] I met a man, 'oo warn't there I met'n there agin today, I do so wish ee'd goa way! Kind Regards June & Roy http://www.btinternet.com/~roy.cox/index.htm -----Original Message----- From: Michael Roberts [mailto:mikeroberts@mweb.co.za] Sent: Friday, March 19, 2004 6:41 AM To: OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [OEL] nursery rhymes Hi, You may be wrong in assuming that Curly locks is a girl. Accordiong to an M.G.M. documentary the original Curly locks of this rhyme was Charles 11, although no documentary evidence has been brought forward to support that. If you really want to impress your Grandson I suggest you get a copy of "The Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes" by Iona and Peter Opie cost about £25.00. It includes over 500 rhymes, songs and riddles. Best Wishes, Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "norman.lee1" <norman.lee1@virgin.net> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 7:45 PM Subject: [OEL] nursery rhymes Hello List I must be becoming known as the 'nursery rhyme woman' by now. (It's all my grandson's fault!) My question and discussion point is the following rhyme: 'Curly locks, curly locks wilt thou be mine? Thou shalt not wash dishes nor yet feed the swine But sit upon cushions and sew a fine seam And feed upon strawberries, sugar and cream.' At what date do list members think this rhyme was written or performed? I think the main dating point would be the import of sugar plus the use of it amongst the minor gentry. Only the more wealthy people could afford cushions. Around my way, only the rich people owned pigs too. This girl is clearly being promised a house with servants. I think it may be late 17th century or sometime in the 18th. So far, I have found no-one in the 16th or 17th centuries who had sugar in their probate inventories but, of course, processed foodstuffs, apart from those that would keep a long time, were generally not shown. So, anyone any knowledge on this one? Audrey ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== THREADED archives for OLD-ENGLISH: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== THREADED archives for OLD-ENGLISH: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH

Hello all: Could anyone expound on the meanings of "yeoman" ? A yeoman seems to have different meanings from a sailor to an estate holder, It would be great to understand more of the history of the word and the localities in England in which the meanings would be different in a particular time. Some of ancestors -- the EMERYs, FOGGs and MEADERs seem to have been yeomen in the 1500s and 1600s -- they were from Kent and Essex and emigrated to New England in the first half of the seventeenth century. Thanks, Donna of Santa Cruz, CA. tenantsrights@sbcglobal.net.

Hi, You may be wrong in assuming that Curly locks is a girl. Accordiong to an M.G.M. documentary the original Curly locks of this rhyme was Charles 11, although no documentary evidence has been brought forward to support that. If you really want to impress your Grandson I suggest you get a copy of "The Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes" by Iona and Peter Opie cost about £25.00. It includes over 500 rhymes, songs and riddles. Best Wishes, Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "norman.lee1" <norman.lee1@virgin.net> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 7:45 PM Subject: [OEL] nursery rhymes Hello List I must be becoming known as the 'nursery rhyme woman' by now. (It's all my grandson's fault!) My question and discussion point is the following rhyme: 'Curly locks, curly locks wilt thou be mine? Thou shalt not wash dishes nor yet feed the swine But sit upon cushions and sew a fine seam And feed upon strawberries, sugar and cream.' At what date do list members think this rhyme was written or performed? I think the main dating point would be the import of sugar plus the use of it amongst the minor gentry. Only the more wealthy people could afford cushions. Around my way, only the rich people owned pigs too. This girl is clearly being promised a house with servants. I think it may be late 17th century or sometime in the 18th. So far, I have found no-one in the 16th or 17th centuries who had sugar in their probate inventories but, of course, processed foodstuffs, apart from those that would keep a long time, were generally not shown. So, anyone any knowledge on this one? Audrey ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== THREADED archives for OLD-ENGLISH: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH

In message <005101c40c31$0f430dc0$d6ee8451@pjb07>, Geoff Lowe <gpclowe@btinternet.com> writes >-----Original Message----- >From: mjcl [mailto:mjcl@btinternet.com] >[The clogged bit seems to have been resolved - i.e. the heavy wooden >block but the ploged remains a bit in the air at the moment! Still any >little help is gratefully received.] > >Passing thought, but Sweet's Anglo Saxon Student Dictionary gives >'Plog' (long o) as a measure of land. That is a 'plough' of land. And a ploughland is a fair sized piece (varying according to area) And I doubt they would park a tethered dog in the way of the ploughing. I incline to someone's idea of a savage dog with a hunk of wood like a 'bit' in its jaws, to stop it biting. -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

'Evening All - From HAYDN's Dictionary of dates 1891:- SUGAR: Supposedly known to ancient Jews - Found in the East Indies by Nearchus, Admiral of Alexander - 523 BC - Prescribed as a medicine by Galen, 2nd century - An oriental nation in alliance with Pompey used the juice of the cane as a common beverage - Brought into Europe from Asia A.D. 625 - In large quantities in 1150 - Cultivation attempted in Italy; not succeeding, the Portuguese and Spaniards carried it to America about 1510 - Hereafter is a list of various imports and taxes raised until 1889 - Lastly Raw sugar was imported into the UK - 1853 7,284,290 cwts ******************* Cream has always been around of course - Yum! Yum! The Strawberry was introduced into the UK from two sources:- From Flanders in 1530, known as The Flanders Strawberry - From Levant in 1724, known as The Oriental Strawberry - ******************** Look as if Cheddar has been doing quite well for some years;- ) ? As an aside - another book I have list the term: SUGAR-LIP - Stated as being Hafiz Sugar-Lip, the great Persian lyrist c.1389 - the letter 'a' has a 'tin-hat' over which I can't reproduce. Kind Regards June & Roy http://www.btinternet.com/~roy.cox/index.htm -----Original Message----- From: norman.lee1 [mailto:norman.lee1@virgin.net] Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 7:46 PM To: OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [OEL] nursery rhymes Hello List I must be becoming known as the 'nursery rhyme woman' by now. (It's all my grandson's fault!) My question and discussion point is the following rhyme: 'Curly locks, curly locks wilt thou be mine? Thou shalt not wash dishes nor yet feed the swine But sit upon cushions and sew a fine seam And feed upon strawberries, sugar and cream.' At what date do list members think this rhyme was written or performed? I think the main dating point would be the import of sugar plus the use of it amongst the minor gentry. Only the more wealthy people could afford cushions. Around my way, only the rich people owned pigs too. This girl is clearly being promised a house with servants. I think it may be late 17th century or sometime in the 18th. So far, I have found no-one in the 16th or 17th centuries who had sugar in their probate inventories but, of course, processed foodstuffs, apart from those that would keep a long time, were generally not shown. So, anyone any knowledge on this one? Audrey ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== THREADED archives for OLD-ENGLISH: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH

Audrey, Couldn't the reference to dishes also help date it? David The Beaver Inn, Ashford, Kent. : > > 'Curly locks, curly locks wilt thou be mine? > Thou shalt not wash dishes nor yet feed the swine > But sit upon cushions and sew a fine seam > And feed upon strawberries, sugar and cream.'

Hello List I must be becoming known as the 'nursery rhyme woman' by now. (It's all my grandson's fault!) My question and discussion point is the following rhyme: 'Curly locks, curly locks wilt thou be mine? Thou shalt not wash dishes nor yet feed the swine But sit upon cushions and sew a fine seam And feed upon strawberries, sugar and cream.' At what date do list members think this rhyme was written or performed? I think the main dating point would be the import of sugar plus the use of it amongst the minor gentry. Only the more wealthy people could afford cushions. Around my way, only the rich people owned pigs too. This girl is clearly being promised a house with servants. I think it may be late 17th century or sometime in the 18th. So far, I have found no-one in the 16th or 17th centuries who had sugar in their probate inventories but, of course, processed foodstuffs, apart from those that would keep a long time, were generally not shown. So, anyone any knowledge on this one? Audrey

Just a quick thank you to those who helped in connection with the above, and the continuing whittling away at the problem. Chris Phillips notes the references in the PRO to Sir Henry - in fact he appears all over the place (Yorkshire, Kent, London, Herefordshire, South Wales, Durham and Northumberland) - often identifiable by the presence of Gully Merrick (various spellings) until this chap got the chop along with the Earl of Essex, and afterwards by the presence of servants such as John Starkey - an interesting survivor, but more vulnerable once James I came to power. John Lindley

Aaahh ha , Now I know what I gotta do , Change my font used to read to one that has the ' quote marks , ( " ) ' , i`ll fixit later ! Thanks for the reply , Phil ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Lamb" <davidlamb@members.shines.net> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2004 11:48 PM Subject: Re: [OEL] Diot COKE christened 1379 (honest!) > Hello, > > I think it may have something to do with the fact that the original message > was sent using Unicode ... snip > > Researchers at the National Archives made the revelation yesterday in their > family history magazine, Ancestors. > > A spokeswoman said: “Diot was a Christian name for girls in the 14th > Century,

As a child in Nurthumberland ploged was what we did in the river- more than paddling, less than swimming- ploging. Jean in glorious Tasmania

Hello, We'd need to know which country's census you mean. The year 1880 (unless it's a typing mistake) would indicate that it is not Great Britain. David Lamb (Paignton, Devon, UK) ----- Original Message ----- From: "David McCarley" <mccarled@bellsouth.net> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2004 2:58 PM Subject: [OEL] Help Interpreting Census > I realize this is not Old English, per se, but I have an 1880 census image > in which I can't make out a person's middle initial. Part of the reason is > that it is somewhat faded. Can anyone point me to a resource that might > help interpret the census image for me? > > David McCarley > ICQ: 75885428 > AOL: Opv1419 > MSN: Opv_m > YAHOO: Opv1419 > > ______________________________

I'm not professing to be a German scholar but messing around with a German/English/German dictionary at: http://branchenportal-deutschland.aus-stade.de came up with the following: ploged=gesteckt=steckte gesteckt=ploged=mated=put steckte=put=sticked=stuck=ploged Don't know if it helps or hinders ! Steve

Better to be ploged than bloged? At 10:41 PM +0000 3/17/04, Steve Cadd wrote: >I'm not professing to be a German scholar but messing around with a >German/English/German dictionary at: > >http://branchenportal-deutschland.aus-stade.de > >came up with the following: > >ploged=gesteckt=steckte >gesteckt=ploged=mated=put >steckte=put=sticked=stuck=ploged > >Don't know if it helps or hinders ! > >Steve -- Ruth Barton mrgjb@sover.net Dummerston, VT

Think you're right. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Phillips" <cgp@medievalgenealogy.org.uk> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2004 4:06 PM Subject: Re: [OEL] Indecipherable marginal note in probate book > Audrey wrote: > > Just a note about translation. According to my Latin dictionary, nepos, > > nepotis = grandson: descendant: spendrift. In the English to Latin side, > > nephew is given as either fratris filius or sororia filius, which, in my > > opinion, is a little bit of a copout. I feel that there should be a wholly > > dedicated word for the translation of nephew. So, you pays your money and > > takes your choice folks! > > I agree that "nepos" is usually frustratingly ambiguous, but in this case, > as it's "nepos ex fratre", I don't think it can mean anything else but a > brother's son. > > Chris Phillips > > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > To UNSUBSCRIBE from list mode -- > Send the one word UNSUBSCRIBE to > OLD-ENGLISH-L-request@rootsweb.com > >

David, I assume that you have a digital image. If it is - do you have an image editing programme? If not try downloading one such as Paintshop Pro - JASC offer a time limited download. With the image loaded into your programme magnify and centre the faded portion and then alter the contrast and brightness settings to bring out the differences in the area you are interested in. If this doesn't do it then I have found that turning the image to a negative often shows up extra detail. Happy hunting Roger -----Original Message----- From: David McCarley [mailto:mccarled@bellsouth.net] Sent: 17 March 2004 14:58 To: OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [OEL] Help Interpreting Census I realize this is not Old English, per se, but I have an 1880 census image in which I can't make out a person's middle initial. Part of the reason is that it is somewhat faded. Can anyone point me to a resource that might help interpret the census image for me? David McCarley ICQ: 75885428 AOL: Opv1419 MSN: Opv_m YAHOO: Opv1419 ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== To contact the list administrator: OLD-ENGLISH-admin@rootsweb.com

A Latin memorial (dated 1838) in Madron church indicated that William Tremenheere was the 'NEPOS' of Walter Borlase. A bit of research found that William was both the grandson and great-nephew of Walter because his mother and father were first cousins making them daughter and nephew of Walter (I think I got that right !). I suppose therefore the vague relationship indicated by the word Nepos saved a few pence from the mason's costs. Incidently, the memorial was designed and ordered by the person commemorated (William) and hung in the church, the date of death being added only when it eventually became known ! William obviously had a certain reputation as he included the words 'Non vecors', presumably as a message to the gossipy parishioners. Mike.

Audrey wrote: > Just a note about translation. According to my Latin dictionary, nepos, > nepotis = grandson: descendant: spendrift. In the English to Latin side, > nephew is given as either fratris filius or sororia filius, which, in my > opinion, is a little bit of a copout. I feel that there should be a wholly > dedicated word for the translation of nephew. So, you pays your money and > takes your choice folks! I agree that "nepos" is usually frustratingly ambiguous, but in this case, as it's "nepos ex fratre", I don't think it can mean anything else but a brother's son. Chris Phillips