In message <003b01c41bae$87c1c8e0$17cdfc3e@oemcomputer>, "norman.lee1" <norman.lee1@virgin.net> writes >You are here talking about the guild system where several boys would often >live with the master who was in charge of their apprenticeship and this is a >very different thing to the pauper apprentices scheme. Not outside Lancashire, it isn't -the textile trades were largely outside the normal systems of apprenticeship and the lads were cheap labour rather than proper trade apprentices. 'Houses' are not normal elsewhere. And the 'guild system' is a mediaeval concept. Pauper apprentices were governed by exactly the same rules as ordinary apprentices, living in with the master, taught the skills and subject to intervention by the magistrates if things went extraordinarily wrong. The only major difference was that a boy whose father paid a large premium would get a bedroom and first go at the interesting jobs and the pauper lad would sleep under the trade counter. Both would have to work through all the processes - just the better off boy would get to them sooner, and also be tolerably sure that when he was fully trained, Daddy might stump up the money to set him up as a master. -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

You are here talking about the guild system where several boys would often live with the master who was in charge of their apprenticeship and this is a very different thing to the pauper apprentices scheme. These apprentices would travel up the guild system becoming masters themselves eventually. Styal was quite a small apprentice house compared with Mellor for instance and only a few miles away but both in rural settings. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eve McLaughlin" <eve@varneys.demon.co.uk> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 12:12 AM Subject: Re: [OEL] low pay, 1812 > In message <000001c41b55$26e79da0$5ae04d51@lynhome>, Lyn Boothman > <annys@boothman27.fsnet.co.uk> writes > >Audrey > >I'm not so sure about pauper apprentices and 'apprentice houses'. I've > >never heard of an apprentice house, is it an urban thing > > It is just a Styal mill etc thing, for a special use of papuer children. > Greg of Styal housed his lads decently, fed, clothed, saw to their moral > welfare and even a biot of education. Some of the others shovelled the > boys into a shed with straw for bedding and turfed them out when the > recession came. Normally, there were no ' > houses' for apprentices since they didn't come in bulk > > The parish > >apprenticeships I have seen involve the parish paying the master to feed > >and support the apprentice, albeit at a very low rate. > > One requirement was that he had to supply regular clothing - and you > know how boys grow between 14 and 21 - and at the end of the > apprenticeship 'double apparel' meaning a work suit and a Sunday one. > > -- > Eve McLaughlin > > Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians > Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > SEARCHABLE archives for OLD-ENGLISH: > http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=OLD-ENGLISH > >

Of course not, but there is a marked difference between the two and the systems governing them as I was trying to point out. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eve McLaughlin" <eve@varneys.demon.co.uk> To: "norman.lee1" <norman.lee1@virgin.net> Cc: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 10:37 PM Subject: Re: spam: Re: [OEL] low pay, 1812 > In message <007601c41a9b$44244fe0$8fccfc3e@oemcomputer>, "norman.lee1" > <norman.lee1@virgin.net> writes > >Is someone here mixing up pauper apprentices (from the workhouse) with lads > >apprenticed by relatives of one sort or another where the masters were paid > >to teach them the the skill of the trade they were aiming to join? In the > >case of the latter, the boys weren't paid at all, were they? In the former, > >they received their keep in an apprentice house. > That is a very specialised sort of apprentice (pauper children from > London called 'apprentices' but really cheap gangs of labourers to a > group of Lancs etc mills, e.g. the good one at Styal and the horror ones > elsewhere, late C18.) It was not what usually happened because it could > only work when so called 'apprentices' are grouped en masse and working > in a factory. Normally, no master could take more than 2 apprentices, > and you don't establish a 'house' on a small scale. > > -- > Eve McLaughlin > > Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians > Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society >

Dear Lyn My home is rural, albeit now on the edge of a conurbation but back in the late 1700s and early 1800s it was in the heart of the countryside. We had a large apprentice house and apprentices were brought from workhouses in the Isle of Skye and the East End of London. Our mill owner was reckoned to be a kind one who believed in welfare but still only a very limited form by the standards of today. There were many other apprentice houses around Derbyshire and there is a fairly well known book based on the diary of one who escaped and came to join our apprentices. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lyn Boothman" <annys@boothman27.fsnet.co.uk> To: "'norman.lee1'" <norman.lee1@virgin.net>; <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 10:29 PM Subject: Re: [OEL] low pay, 1812 > Audrey > I'm not so sure about pauper apprentices and 'apprentice houses'. I've > never heard of an apprentice house, is it an urban thing ...? The parish > apprenticeships I have seen involve the parish paying the master to feed > and support the apprentice, albeit at a very low rate. > > Lyn B > > > >

Hi There's a place called LLanbath, don't know about the parish. I thought the second word there was Dovey. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lyn Boothman" <annys@boothman27.fsnet.co.uk> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 9:37 PM Subject: RE: [OEL] Will of John Cadde of Herefordshire > Dear all, mainly agree with what has been suggested already. > > Llanbathorne ?voney - this seems very unlikely but I can't make dovey > out of it although that would seem more likely > Wevardes > Kellem > Parrhamor > Hary > Lingen. > > But where is the parish of Llanbathorne whatever ?? I have tried maps, > online and off, and genuki, and can't find a parish of that name in > Wales or Herefordshire. > > There's a couple of Llanbarn Fawrs, and Llanbadarn-y-garreg in > Hertforshire and (just in case it was a v not a b) Llanvetherine ... > > Is it very obvious and I'm just very ignorant of parishes in Wales? > > I think 'remayneth in the hands of' is usually a formula for a debt owed > but not always. > > Lyn B > > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > OLD-ENGLISH Web Page > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > >

In message <000001c41b55$26e79da0$5ae04d51@lynhome>, Lyn Boothman <annys@boothman27.fsnet.co.uk> writes >Audrey >I'm not so sure about pauper apprentices and 'apprentice houses'. I've >never heard of an apprentice house, is it an urban thing It is just a Styal mill etc thing, for a special use of papuer children. Greg of Styal housed his lads decently, fed, clothed, saw to their moral welfare and even a biot of education. Some of the others shovelled the boys into a shed with straw for bedding and turfed them out when the recession came. Normally, there were no ' houses' for apprentices since they didn't come in bulk > The parish >apprenticeships I have seen involve the parish paying the master to feed >and support the apprentice, albeit at a very low rate. One requirement was that he had to supply regular clothing - and you know how boys grow between 14 and 21 - and at the end of the apprenticeship 'double apparel' meaning a work suit and a Sunday one. -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

In message <003701c41ae3$67169c90$5cea89d9@Steve>, Steve Cadd <stevecadd@tesco.net> writes >Dear List, > >Would you be kind enough to assist me with a few words in the will of John Cadde >of Little Hereford. > >http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/unsolved37.html > before looking > >2. In a number of places the term " w[hi]ch remayneth in the handes of. a 'term' is the unexpired part of a lease. So if Dad leased property for 30 year ten years ago, the heir or legatee gets 20 years more in the lease. If it was 29 years ago, then the heir is not doing quite as well. If someone else holds a short lease, then eventually, the property will come back to the family >.." is >used and in one place it is qualified by "... by bond...". it was usual to secure land transactions by a legal document - and this may refer to the payment of x pounds for the lease, or y shillings a year as a sort of rent etc > >"Item I give and bequeathe unto Ellinor Balden of Orleton widowe tenn yearlinge >sheepe at the price of three shillinge six pence a peece w[hi]ch remayneth in >the hands of Richard Cooke of the parrishe of middleton". > >What is the significance of giving a price to the bequest? making it clear that she gets a certain grade of sheep. Others may bhe higher or lower quality, worth more or less, -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

In message <007601c41a9b$44244fe0$8fccfc3e@oemcomputer>, "norman.lee1" <norman.lee1@virgin.net> writes >Is someone here mixing up pauper apprentices (from the workhouse) with lads >apprenticed by relatives of one sort or another where the masters were paid >to teach them the the skill of the trade they were aiming to join? In the >case of the latter, the boys weren't paid at all, were they? In the former, >they received their keep in an apprentice house. That is a very specialised sort of apprentice (pauper children from London called 'apprentices' but really cheap gangs of labourers to a group of Lancs etc mills, e.g. the good one at Styal and the horror ones elsewhere, late C18.) It was not what usually happened because it could only work when so called 'apprentices' are grouped en masse and working in a factory. Normally, no master could take more than 2 apprentices, and you don't establish a 'house' on a small scale. -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

Audrey I've just re-read your email and realised that you were talking about when there were workhouses - I was thinking of earlier when the overseers were apprenticing children of local paupers who were still living in their own houses. Lyn

Audrey I'm not so sure about pauper apprentices and 'apprentice houses'. I've never heard of an apprentice house, is it an urban thing ...? The parish apprenticeships I have seen involve the parish paying the master to feed and support the apprentice, albeit at a very low rate. Lyn B

I have received an email from Judith in reply to my request as to uploading old english transcript for interpretation. Thanks Judith will reply according to my email sent to you direct. Regards Robin in West Oz

Dear all, mainly agree with what has been suggested already. Llanbathorne ?voney - this seems very unlikely but I can't make dovey out of it although that would seem more likely Wevardes Kellem Parrhamor Hary Lingen. But where is the parish of Llanbathorne whatever ?? I have tried maps, online and off, and genuki, and can't find a parish of that name in Wales or Herefordshire. There's a couple of Llanbarn Fawrs, and Llanbadarn-y-garreg in Hertforshire and (just in case it was a v not a b) Llanvetherine ... Is it very obvious and I'm just very ignorant of parishes in Wales? I think 'remayneth in the hands of' is usually a formula for a debt owed but not always. Lyn B

Good Afternoon All - I agree with Eve and others that the name is COCKE - the main clue I think is the 2nd 'c'? Also, I probably have this family referenced in my research, certainly the other names in the doc I do have, connected with the name Cox/Cock[e] - Oh! Yes! - FOR SALE Very olde pitchfork - well used - fairly clean! Kind Regards June & Roy http://www.btinternet.com/~roy.cox/index.htm -----Original Message----- From: Eve McLaughlin [mailto:eve@varneys.demon.co.uk] Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2004 4:57 PM To: OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [OEL] Transcription help please In message <000801c41a3f$63930da0$27164f51@lynhome>, Lyn Boothman <annys@boothman27.fsnet.co.uk> writes >Dear all > >What we need is a larger sample of the handwriting. Could the whole >will, or at least a much bigger chunk, be put up. It's always difficult >to interpret things if there are no other examples of how that >individual's hand. This is pretty clear writing (compared with some wriiten in manure with a pitchford) It is Cocke -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== Going away for a while? Don't forget to UNSUBSCRIBE! OLD-ENGLISH-L-request@rootsweb.com

Provided there are Lower hands employed of course? Wartime was a good example when not too many farm workers were around even though they were exempted from active service. But I do know what you are saying and everyone has to start somewhere? Kind Regards June & Roy http://www.btinternet.com/~roy.cox/index.htm -----Original Message----- From: Ruth Barton [mailto:mrgjb@sover.net] Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2004 5:30 PM To: Roy; OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com Subject: RE: [OEL] Re: Cowkeepers The herdsmen that I know DO NOT do the mucking out. That's for the lower down farm hands to do. Ruth At 7:11 AM +0100 4/3/04, Roy wrote: >Mucking out, as they so politely put it today! > >Kind Regards > >June & Roy >http://www.btinternet.com/~roy.cox/index.htm -- Ruth Barton mrgjb@sover.net Dummerston, VT

Changed my mind, sorry, on line 10. I think it's Richard Parrhamore. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Cadd" <stevecadd@tesco.net> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 8:55 AM Subject: [OEL] Will of John Cadde of Herefordshire > Dear List, > > Would you be kind enough to assist me with a few words in the will of John Cadde of Little Hereford. > > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/unsolved37.html > > They are mostly placenames and names of people. > > However, there are one or two questions arising from the documents. > > 1. A phrase is used: "lones and slayes": the common sense answer is that it is a debt of some kind but what does "slayes" mean? > > 2. In a number of places the term " w[hi]ch remayneth in the handes of..." is used and in one place it is qualified by "... by bond...". Can anyone explain these terms? > Is it just a way of detailing debts or goods owing? > > Finally. > > 3. One bequest is priced up. > > "Item I give and bequeathe unto Ellinor Balden of Orleton widowe tenn yearlinge sheepe at the price of three shillinge six pence a peece w[hi]ch remayneth in the hands of Richard Cooke of the parrishe of middleton". > > What is the significance of giving a price to the bequest? > It is the only one of quite a few similar bequests. > > Thankyou > > Steve Cadd, > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > To contact the list administrator: > OLD-ENGLISH-admin@rootsweb.com > >

Line 2 - Llanbathoe[w?]ne Dovey Line 5 - Wevardes Closse Line 8 - remayneth in the handes of Kellem Line 9 - Richard Parchammor Line 13 - Thomas Hary Line 15 - Lawnde Richard Lingen [or Linger?] Slayes could be another way of writing layes which are taxes. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Cadd" <stevecadd@tesco.net> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 8:55 AM Subject: [OEL] Will of John Cadde of Herefordshire > Dear List, > > Would you be kind enough to assist me with a few words in the will of John Cadde of Little Hereford. > > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/unsolved37.html > > They are mostly placenames and names of people. > > However, there are one or two questions arising from the documents. > > 1. A phrase is used: "lones and slayes": the common sense answer is that it is a debt of some kind but what does "slayes" mean? > > 2. In a number of places the term " w[hi]ch remayneth in the handes of..." is used and in one place it is qualified by "... by bond...". Can anyone explain these terms? > Is it just a way of detailing debts or goods owing? > > Finally. > > 3. One bequest is priced up. > > "Item I give and bequeathe unto Ellinor Balden of Orleton widowe tenn yearlinge sheepe at the price of three shillinge six pence a peece w[hi]ch remayneth in the hands of Richard Cooke of the parrishe of middleton". > > What is the significance of giving a price to the bequest? > It is the only one of quite a few similar bequests. > > Thankyou > > Steve Cadd, > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > To contact the list administrator: > OLD-ENGLISH-admin@rootsweb.com > >

Dear List, Would you be kind enough to assist me with a few words in the will of John Cadde of Little Hereford. http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/unsolved37.html They are mostly placenames and names of people. However, there are one or two questions arising from the documents. 1. A phrase is used: "lones and slayes": the common sense answer is that it is a debt of some kind but what does "slayes" mean? 2. In a number of places the term " w[hi]ch remayneth in the handes of..." is used and in one place it is qualified by "... by bond...". Can anyone explain these terms? Is it just a way of detailing debts or goods owing? Finally. 3. One bequest is priced up. "Item I give and bequeathe unto Ellinor Balden of Orleton widowe tenn yearlinge sheepe at the price of three shillinge six pence a peece w[hi]ch remayneth in the hands of Richard Cooke of the parrishe of middleton". What is the significance of giving a price to the bequest? It is the only one of quite a few similar bequests. Thankyou Steve Cadd,

I'm in the Cocke camp. There's no r consistent with the other r's in the extract. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "ath" <higham@clara.net> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2004 3:09 PM Subject: [OEL] Transcription help please > Hi all ~ > > On my behalf, Judith has kindly uploaded an excerpt from a 1660 deposition > to........ > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/unsolved36.html > > I'd be grateful for help on the surname that appears (twice) in line 3. > Many thanks > Anne H. in Epping, England > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > OLD-ENGLISH Web Page > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > >

Is someone here mixing up pauper apprentices (from the workhouse) with lads apprenticed by relatives of one sort or another where the masters were paid to teach them the the skill of the trade they were aiming to join? In the case of the latter, the boys weren't paid at all, were they? In the former, they received their keep in an apprentice house. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roy" <roy.cox@btinternet.com> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2004 7:10 AM Subject: RE: spam: Re: [OEL] low pay, 1812 > Absolutely! > > Apprentices getting paid, WOW! 18th century they had to pay the master to > teach them, or at least their parents did if they were known!! > Kind Regards > > June & Roy > http://www.btinternet.com/~roy.cox/index.htm > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Eve McLaughlin [mailto:eve@varneys.demon.co.uk] > Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2004 12:17 AM > To: OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: spam: Re: [OEL] low pay, 1812 > > In message <6b.25ee860d.2d9ec9b1@aol.com>, Grahampollett@aol.com writes > >Things had not improved much by 1889 when my grandfather, aged 15, was > >apprenticed for four years as a seaman. He was paid (quote) the sum of > >26 pounds in manner following; that is to say Two pounds for the first > >year, four for the second, eight for the third and twelve for the > >fourth and last. > > Cor, there's spoiling him. Earlier apprentices got nothing but their bed and > board (and tuition) unless the master felt generous, when he might tip them > a few pennies at Christmas. What could a lad spend such enormous amounts of > money on? Riotous living, booze and naughty ladies? > (Don't answer that) > > -- > Eve McLaughlin > > Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks > Genealogical Society > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > OLD-ENGLISH Web Page > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > To UNSUBSCRIBE from list mode -- > Send the one word UNSUBSCRIBE to > OLD-ENGLISH-L-request@rootsweb.com > >

Many, many thanks to those who responded to my plea for help.... all SIXTEEN of you! I don't want to clog the list with individual replies so please accept this as a coverall *thankyou*..... I'm really grateful for the time and trouble that you've taken. Now that I have a handle on this surname, I can make a start on searching for an appropriate marriage. Thanks listers. regards Anne H. _____________________________________________ > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/unsolved36.html > > I'd be grateful for help on the surname that appears (twice) in line 3.