Apologies to all. I've had a look at my trusty gazeteer and cannot find Llanbath there at all. I've looked all the way up the River Dovey and although there are around three towns with beginning with Ll there is nothing that comes close. Sorry to have misled anyone. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "norman.lee1" <norman.lee1@virgin.net> To: "Lyn Boothman" <annys@boothman27.fsnet.co.uk>; <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 9:00 AM Subject: Re: [OEL] Will of John Cadde of Herefordshire > Hi > > There's a place called LLanbath, don't know about the parish. I thought the > second word there was Dovey. > > Audrey > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lyn Boothman" <annys@boothman27.fsnet.co.uk> > To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 9:37 PM > Subject: RE: [OEL] Will of John Cadde of Herefordshire > > > > Dear all, mainly agree with what has been suggested already. > > > > Llanbathorne ?voney - this seems very unlikely but I can't make dovey > > out of it although that would seem more likely > > Wevardes > > Kellem > > Parrhamor > > Hary > > Lingen. > > > > But where is the parish of Llanbathorne whatever ?? I have tried maps, > > online and off, and genuki, and can't find a parish of that name in > > Wales or Herefordshire. > > > > There's a couple of Llanbarn Fawrs, and Llanbadarn-y-garreg in > > Hertforshire and (just in case it was a v not a b) Llanvetherine ... > > > > Is it very obvious and I'm just very ignorant of parishes in Wales? > > > > I think 'remayneth in the hands of' is usually a formula for a debt owed > > but not always. > > > > Lyn B > > > > > > > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > > OLD-ENGLISH Web Page > > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > > > > >

Hello, I apologise for that. However, I should point out that I did say "sort of", as well as putting the phrase "Bishop's committee" in quotation marks. I wonder if the Cyclopedia entry I quoted wrong in saying, "England the chapter of a cathedral church consists of persons ..... whereof the dean is chief, all subordinate to the bishop, to whom they are as assistants in matters relating to the church" ? Sorry again for any confusion. David Lamb (Paignton, Devon, UK) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Richards" <cmr1ch6rd7@blueyonder.co.uk> To: <davidlamb@members.shines.net>; <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2004 8:28 AM Subject: Re: [OEL] Re: church government > The Cathedral Chapter is not the Bishop's Committee. It is the management > committee of the Cathedral chaired by the Dean or Provost. The Bishop has > his throne in the cathedral but the building is under the control of the > Dean. All a bit complicated like much of the organization of the Anglican > Church in England. > Christopher Richards

Gordon writes: I have never encountered the surname Winemer, it was an origina Wigmaer, and the only sort of equivalent i can think of is Wigmore. WIGMORE - Belonging to Wigmore, (Heref.; Salop), A.-Sax. WIG(G)AN-MOR meaning Wigga's Moor. Abbas et Conventus de Wiggemore.-Charter Rolls (Heref.), A.D. 1264-5 Prior Abbacie de Wigmore.- Inq.ad q. Damn. (Heref.), A.D. 1332 For the A.-Sax, personal name WIFMAER meaning War-Renowned from the Old English WIG, war, battle + MAER, famous. MARLEY - (English) Dweller at the Lake-Lea or Boundary-Lea. Gary

In message <00c201c41d8f$0aa6aa00$c3f1a1cd@preferred>, Gordon Barlow <barlow@candw.ky> writes >> According to the Oxford Dictionary of English Place Names, "Winmarleigh, >> Lancashire, Wynemerislega 1212, 'woodland clearing of a man called >> Winemaer' OE pers. name + leah >> Jackie Watts. >> >Just as a matter of interest, what might be the modern version of >"Winemaer", the OE personal name? I realise it may have appeared in writing >only once in history, but still... I'm always looking to "convert" old >names into new. I have never encountered the surname Winemer, it was an origina Wigmaer, and the only sort of equivalent i can think of is Wigmore. Lives as the name of a concert Hall, bit not as a personal name (AFAIK) > but could >Widmer be a lineal descendant more ex Wittemar? -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

>entry, and it sort of relates: > >'Married ladies receive their precedence from their husbands and not >from their father ... The only exception to this is when the daughter of >a peer marries a knight or lower. She will then retain her rank as the >daughter of a peer'. > >So if the other wifes of knights or baronets (whichever yours were) were >daughters of peers, then their titles might have come from then. I obviously have not seen the original query .. > since this makes no sense to me at the moment >But Dame is not a title as such The modern 'Dame' is a personal title, granted to a woman as recognition of her personal achievements in politics, social work, industry, the arts. It conveys no rank on her husband. >It is more or less the equivalent of a knighthood, though obtained with greater difficulty, since they tend to be, for men, two a penny. In the more distant past, the elderly wife or widow of a knight or even baronet, tended to be called 'my Dame', or Dame Mary' unofficially , but correctly was Lady jones. Be wary that around Eton, 'my dame' means the woman in charge of a boarding house for pupils. >could just be that your Sir Wm is being more familiar about his wife >rather than using her full title. Here agin. maybe I shall get the query later (after the answer) -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

In message <13.2a6e12ff.2da5ca98@aol.com>, GaryIvoDe@aol.com writes >I've lost the msg. re the place names book. Could the gentleman who posted >it, check for what happened to Winmarleigh in Lancashire? Likely to be the personal name Wigmaer (his) lee > cf Wymering. The book you want is probably the Origin of English place names: P H Reaney -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

Thanks for all your trouble, Christopher. In the document(s) to which I refer, the words are Dean and Chapter but open chapter appears only once so far. It could well be that either the sense has been misread or that the practice is well lost in the mists of time. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Richards" <cmr1ch6rd7@blueyonder.co.uk> To: "norman.lee1" <norman.lee1@virgin.net>; <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2004 11:14 AM Subject: Re: [OEL] Re: church government > Yes you are right about the Bishop needing the permission of the Dean & > Chapter to come into the cathedral. I am sure there are historical > instances of the Dean & Chapter keeing the Bishop out! > I called in Cross' Dictionary of the Christian Church. There is an > extensive entry under Chapter but it doesn't mention "Open Chapter". > My memory is that Lichfield was never a monastic institution - it was always > run by a Dean & Canons. I did find a reference to Greater and lesser > Chapters. The lesser Chapter being the Dean and residentiary canons, the > greater including honorary canons and maybe others. > Christopher Richards > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "norman.lee1" <norman.lee1@virgin.net> > To: "Christopher Richards" <cmr1ch6rd7@blueyonder.co.uk>; > <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2004 9:23 AM > Subject: Re: [OEL] Re: church government > > > > Hello Christopher > > > > Do I have it wrong when I think I remember being told that the bishop only > > comes into the cathedral by invitation of the Dean and Chapter? This, I > > guess, would virtually never be refused but could be if the situation > > demanded it. > > > > When it comes to the 'open chapter', I would love to know to what this > > refers. There are all sorts of possibilities. The date was, by the way, > > 1344, and so the monastic system would have been in full force. The > > cathedral was Lichfield. Brother Cadfael was not so very far away in > > Shrewsbury, was he? > > > > Audrey > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Christopher Richards" <cmr1ch6rd7@blueyonder.co.uk> > > To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2004 8:28 AM > > Subject: Re: [OEL] Re: church government > > > > > > > The Cathedral Chapter is not the Bishop's Committee. It is the > management > > > committee of the Cathedral chaired by the Dean or Provost. The Bishop > has > > > his throne in the cathedral but the building is under the control of the > > > Dean. All a bit complicated like much of the organization of the > Anglican > > > Church in England. > > > Christopher Richards > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "David Lamb" <davidlamb@members.shines.net> > > > To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> > > > Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2004 7:46 AM > > > Subject: [OEL] Re: church government > > > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > > > As Audrey says, the dean and chapter of a cathedral form a sort of > > > "Bishop's > > > > Committee". The "Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological and > Ecclesiastical > > > > Literature" by Rev. John McClintock and James Strong (published 1895) > > > says: > > > > "In England the chapter of a cathedral church consists of persons > > > > ecclesiastical, canons and prebendaries, whereof the dean is chief, > all > > > > subordinate to the bishop, to whom they are as assistants in matters > > > > relating to the church, for the better ordering and disposing the > things > > > > thereof, and for confirmation of such leases of the temporalities and > > > > officers relating to the bishopric as the bishop from time to time > shall > > > > happen to make" > > > > > > > > I couldn't find a reference to "open chapter", but I seem to remember > > > > reading it in one of the "Brother Cadfael" mediaeval whodunit books. > > > > Certainly in a monastery, the chapter was a "business meeting" of the > > > monks > > > > and canons. Possibly a full meeting, with all monks and canons > > attending, > > > > would be an "open chapter", as opposed to a meeting which only the > "top > > > > brass" attended ("closed chapter"?) but I am only guessing. > > > > > > > > David Lamb (Paignton, Devon, UK) > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "norman.lee1" <norman.lee1@virgin.net> > > > > To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2004 8:33 AM > > > > Subject: church government > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Folks > > > > > > > > > > Does anyone know the difference between a chapter, as in dean and > > > chapter > > > > (government of a cathedral) and an open chapter. I have a possibility > in > > > > mind that it may be that the open chapter would be an open meeting of > > the > > > > chapter that would be available to the laity to attend. Anyone any > ideas > > > or > > > > knowledge? > > > > > > > > > > Audrey > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > > > > Going away for a while? > > > > Don't forget to UNSUBSCRIBE! > > > > OLD-ENGLISH-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > > > THREADED archives for OLD-ENGLISH: > > > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Thank you, Eve. Place names can he just as interesting as surnames. Perhaps I should invest in the book. But oh, how the language has changed. Gary

Yes you are right about the Bishop needing the permission of the Dean & Chapter to come into the cathedral. I am sure there are historical instances of the Dean & Chapter keeing the Bishop out! I called in Cross' Dictionary of the Christian Church. There is an extensive entry under Chapter but it doesn't mention "Open Chapter". My memory is that Lichfield was never a monastic institution - it was always run by a Dean & Canons. I did find a reference to Greater and lesser Chapters. The lesser Chapter being the Dean and residentiary canons, the greater including honorary canons and maybe others. Christopher Richards ----- Original Message ----- From: "norman.lee1" <norman.lee1@virgin.net> To: "Christopher Richards" <cmr1ch6rd7@blueyonder.co.uk>; <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2004 9:23 AM Subject: Re: [OEL] Re: church government > Hello Christopher > > Do I have it wrong when I think I remember being told that the bishop only > comes into the cathedral by invitation of the Dean and Chapter? This, I > guess, would virtually never be refused but could be if the situation > demanded it. > > When it comes to the 'open chapter', I would love to know to what this > refers. There are all sorts of possibilities. The date was, by the way, > 1344, and so the monastic system would have been in full force. The > cathedral was Lichfield. Brother Cadfael was not so very far away in > Shrewsbury, was he? > > Audrey > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Christopher Richards" <cmr1ch6rd7@blueyonder.co.uk> > To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2004 8:28 AM > Subject: Re: [OEL] Re: church government > > > > The Cathedral Chapter is not the Bishop's Committee. It is the management > > committee of the Cathedral chaired by the Dean or Provost. The Bishop has > > his throne in the cathedral but the building is under the control of the > > Dean. All a bit complicated like much of the organization of the Anglican > > Church in England. > > Christopher Richards > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "David Lamb" <davidlamb@members.shines.net> > > To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2004 7:46 AM > > Subject: [OEL] Re: church government > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > As Audrey says, the dean and chapter of a cathedral form a sort of > > "Bishop's > > > Committee". The "Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological and Ecclesiastical > > > Literature" by Rev. John McClintock and James Strong (published 1895) > > says: > > > "In England the chapter of a cathedral church consists of persons > > > ecclesiastical, canons and prebendaries, whereof the dean is chief, all > > > subordinate to the bishop, to whom they are as assistants in matters > > > relating to the church, for the better ordering and disposing the things > > > thereof, and for confirmation of such leases of the temporalities and > > > officers relating to the bishopric as the bishop from time to time shall > > > happen to make" > > > > > > I couldn't find a reference to "open chapter", but I seem to remember > > > reading it in one of the "Brother Cadfael" mediaeval whodunit books. > > > Certainly in a monastery, the chapter was a "business meeting" of the > > monks > > > and canons. Possibly a full meeting, with all monks and canons > attending, > > > would be an "open chapter", as opposed to a meeting which only the "top > > > brass" attended ("closed chapter"?) but I am only guessing. > > > > > > David Lamb (Paignton, Devon, UK) > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "norman.lee1" <norman.lee1@virgin.net> > > > To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2004 8:33 AM > > > Subject: church government > > > > > > > > > > Dear Folks > > > > > > > > Does anyone know the difference between a chapter, as in dean and > > chapter > > > (government of a cathedral) and an open chapter. I have a possibility in > > > mind that it may be that the open chapter would be an open meeting of > the > > > chapter that would be available to the laity to attend. Anyone any ideas > > or > > > knowledge? > > > > > > > > Audrey > > > > > > > > ______________________________ > > > > > > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > > > Going away for a while? > > > Don't forget to UNSUBSCRIBE! > > > OLD-ENGLISH-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > > THREADED archives for OLD-ENGLISH: > > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > > > > > > >

> According to the Oxford Dictionary of English Place Names, "Winmarleigh, > Lancashire, Wynemerislega 1212, 'woodland clearing of a man called > Winemaer' OE pers. name + leah > Jackie Watts. > Just as a matter of interest, what might be the modern version of "Winemaer", the OE personal name? I realise it may have appeared in writing only once in history, but still... I'm always looking to "convert" old names into new. I have never encountered the surname Winemer, but could Widmer be a lineal descendant? Gordon Barlow

Just out of Louth- prewtty liyttle village jean in tasmania

As you can see, there is a very fine dividing line between the pauper and paid-for apprentice, as per your description. However, you are confining all your references to large numbers of pauper apprentices to Lancashire. You should also include Yorkshire (woollen mills), Derbyshire and Cheshire. Styal, which you quoted, is in Cheshire, not Lancashire. So you can see that a fair bit of the country was covered by this scheme which, as you say, was cheap labour and an easy way of disposing of poor children from workhouses and orphanages to the advantage of both parties. Individual pauper apprentices were again a form of cheap labour and the lowest of the low in the pecking order. I find it very interesting that children were imported from as far away from each other from the Isle of Skye and from the East End of London into a house to live and work together. Language must have been difficult for a start, especially since the overlookers would have been local people, from Derbyshire. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eve McLaughlin" <eve@varneys.demon.co.uk> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 1:27 PM Subject: Re: [OEL] low pay, 1812 > In message <003b01c41bae$87c1c8e0$17cdfc3e@oemcomputer>, "norman.lee1" > <norman.lee1@virgin.net> writes > >You are here talking about the guild system where several boys would often > >live with the master who was in charge of their apprenticeship and this is a > >very different thing to the pauper apprentices scheme. > > Not outside Lancashire, it isn't -the textile trades were largely > outside the normal systems of apprenticeship and the lads were cheap > labour rather than proper trade apprentices. 'Houses' are not normal > elsewhere. And the 'guild system' is a mediaeval concept. > Pauper apprentices were governed by exactly the same rules as ordinary > apprentices, living in with the master, taught the skills and subject to > intervention by the magistrates if things went extraordinarily wrong. > The only major difference was that a boy whose father paid a large > premium would get a bedroom and first go at the interesting jobs and > the pauper lad would sleep under the trade counter. Both would have to > work through all the processes - just the better off boy would get to > them sooner, and also be tolerably sure that when he was fully trained, > Daddy might stump up the money to set him up as a master. > > -- > Eve McLaughlin > > Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians > Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > Going away for a while? > Don't forget to UNSUBSCRIBE! > OLD-ENGLISH-L-request@rootsweb.com > >

Hello Christopher Do I have it wrong when I think I remember being told that the bishop only comes into the cathedral by invitation of the Dean and Chapter? This, I guess, would virtually never be refused but could be if the situation demanded it. When it comes to the 'open chapter', I would love to know to what this refers. There are all sorts of possibilities. The date was, by the way, 1344, and so the monastic system would have been in full force. The cathedral was Lichfield. Brother Cadfael was not so very far away in Shrewsbury, was he? Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Richards" <cmr1ch6rd7@blueyonder.co.uk> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2004 8:28 AM Subject: Re: [OEL] Re: church government > The Cathedral Chapter is not the Bishop's Committee. It is the management > committee of the Cathedral chaired by the Dean or Provost. The Bishop has > his throne in the cathedral but the building is under the control of the > Dean. All a bit complicated like much of the organization of the Anglican > Church in England. > Christopher Richards > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Lamb" <davidlamb@members.shines.net> > To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2004 7:46 AM > Subject: [OEL] Re: church government > > > > Hello, > > > > As Audrey says, the dean and chapter of a cathedral form a sort of > "Bishop's > > Committee". The "Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological and Ecclesiastical > > Literature" by Rev. John McClintock and James Strong (published 1895) > says: > > "In England the chapter of a cathedral church consists of persons > > ecclesiastical, canons and prebendaries, whereof the dean is chief, all > > subordinate to the bishop, to whom they are as assistants in matters > > relating to the church, for the better ordering and disposing the things > > thereof, and for confirmation of such leases of the temporalities and > > officers relating to the bishopric as the bishop from time to time shall > > happen to make" > > > > I couldn't find a reference to "open chapter", but I seem to remember > > reading it in one of the "Brother Cadfael" mediaeval whodunit books. > > Certainly in a monastery, the chapter was a "business meeting" of the > monks > > and canons. Possibly a full meeting, with all monks and canons attending, > > would be an "open chapter", as opposed to a meeting which only the "top > > brass" attended ("closed chapter"?) but I am only guessing. > > > > David Lamb (Paignton, Devon, UK) > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "norman.lee1" <norman.lee1@virgin.net> > > To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2004 8:33 AM > > Subject: church government > > > > > > > Dear Folks > > > > > > Does anyone know the difference between a chapter, as in dean and > chapter > > (government of a cathedral) and an open chapter. I have a possibility in > > mind that it may be that the open chapter would be an open meeting of the > > chapter that would be available to the laity to attend. Anyone any ideas > or > > knowledge? > > > > > > Audrey > > > > > > ______________________________ > > > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > > Going away for a while? > > Don't forget to UNSUBSCRIBE! > > OLD-ENGLISH-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > THREADED archives for OLD-ENGLISH: > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > >

Thanks to everyone who responed to my request for titled women. Lady & Dames Much appreciated Blessings at Easter Mary

Hello listers. In the early 1800s ( and maybe still ?) in Australia, a hotelbroker leased out hotels to suitable persons who could obtain licences. He also sold the hotels, and both activities were on behalf of owners, himself as an agent. Regards Ada Australia >-----Original Message----- >From: Sandra Lovegrove [mailto:sandra@lovegrove.org.uk] >Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2004 10:59 AM >To: OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: [OEL] Hotel Broker > >This is not very old "Old English". Does anyone know what kind of work was >carried out by a "hotel broker" (early 20th century)? > >SANDRA LOVEGROVE > >Researching LOVEGROVEs in all places and at all times. >Please do visit the LOVEGROVE Information Centre on >http://www.lovegrove.org.uk > > > > >==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== >THREADED archives for OLD-ENGLISH: >http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH

The Cathedral Chapter is not the Bishop's Committee. It is the management committee of the Cathedral chaired by the Dean or Provost. The Bishop has his throne in the cathedral but the building is under the control of the Dean. All a bit complicated like much of the organization of the Anglican Church in England. Christopher Richards ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Lamb" <davidlamb@members.shines.net> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2004 7:46 AM Subject: [OEL] Re: church government > Hello, > > As Audrey says, the dean and chapter of a cathedral form a sort of "Bishop's > Committee". The "Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological and Ecclesiastical > Literature" by Rev. John McClintock and James Strong (published 1895) says: > "In England the chapter of a cathedral church consists of persons > ecclesiastical, canons and prebendaries, whereof the dean is chief, all > subordinate to the bishop, to whom they are as assistants in matters > relating to the church, for the better ordering and disposing the things > thereof, and for confirmation of such leases of the temporalities and > officers relating to the bishopric as the bishop from time to time shall > happen to make" > > I couldn't find a reference to "open chapter", but I seem to remember > reading it in one of the "Brother Cadfael" mediaeval whodunit books. > Certainly in a monastery, the chapter was a "business meeting" of the monks > and canons. Possibly a full meeting, with all monks and canons attending, > would be an "open chapter", as opposed to a meeting which only the "top > brass" attended ("closed chapter"?) but I am only guessing. > > David Lamb (Paignton, Devon, UK) > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "norman.lee1" <norman.lee1@virgin.net> > To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2004 8:33 AM > Subject: church government > > > > Dear Folks > > > > Does anyone know the difference between a chapter, as in dean and chapter > (government of a cathedral) and an open chapter. I have a possibility in > mind that it may be that the open chapter would be an open meeting of the > chapter that would be available to the laity to attend. Anyone any ideas or > knowledge? > > > > Audrey > > > > ______________________________ > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > Going away for a while? > Don't forget to UNSUBSCRIBE! > OLD-ENGLISH-L-request@rootsweb.com > >

Hello, As Audrey says, the dean and chapter of a cathedral form a sort of "Bishop's Committee". The "Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological and Ecclesiastical Literature" by Rev. John McClintock and James Strong (published 1895) says: "In England the chapter of a cathedral church consists of persons ecclesiastical, canons and prebendaries, whereof the dean is chief, all subordinate to the bishop, to whom they are as assistants in matters relating to the church, for the better ordering and disposing the things thereof, and for confirmation of such leases of the temporalities and officers relating to the bishopric as the bishop from time to time shall happen to make" I couldn't find a reference to "open chapter", but I seem to remember reading it in one of the "Brother Cadfael" mediaeval whodunit books. Certainly in a monastery, the chapter was a "business meeting" of the monks and canons. Possibly a full meeting, with all monks and canons attending, would be an "open chapter", as opposed to a meeting which only the "top brass" attended ("closed chapter"?) but I am only guessing. David Lamb (Paignton, Devon, UK) ----- Original Message ----- From: "norman.lee1" <norman.lee1@virgin.net> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2004 8:33 AM Subject: church government > Dear Folks > > Does anyone know the difference between a chapter, as in dean and chapter (government of a cathedral) and an open chapter. I have a possibility in mind that it may be that the open chapter would be an open meeting of the chapter that would be available to the laity to attend. Anyone any ideas or knowledge? > > Audrey > > ______________________________

Hello, I found the following in the "Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological and Ecclesiastical Literature" by Rev. John McClintock and James Strong (published 1895): Sancte-Bell, Sanctus-Bell, Saints’-Bell, Massbell (old English forms, Sacring-bell, Saunce-bell), a small bell used in the Roman Catholic Church to call attention to the more solemn parts of the service of the Mass, as at the conclusion of the ordinary, when the words “Sanctus, Sanctus, Sanctus, Deus Sabaoth” are pronounced by the priest, and on the elevation of the host and chalice after consecration. It is now usually, if not always, a small handbell carried by an attendant, and was generally of this kind in England previous to the Reformation, made sometimes of silver; but in some instances a larger bell was used, and was suspended on the outside of the church in a small turret, made to receive it, over the archway leading from the nave into the chancel, and rung by a rope from within. Many of these turrets still exist, as at Isham, Rothwell, and Desborough, Northamptonshire; Boston, Lincolnshire; Bloxham, Brize-norton, Swalcliffe, and Coombe, Oxfordshire, etc.; a few still retain the bell, as at Long Compton, Warwickshire. Occasionally, also, a number of “little bells were hung in the middle of the church, which the pulling of one wheel made all to ring, which was done at the elevation of the hoste.” I hope this helps with "sakering". Sorry, I have no idea about the place names. David Lamb (Paignton, Devon, UK) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fay McKenzie-Edmonds" <flmedmonds1934@ozemail.com.au> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2004 1:51 AM Subject: 1535 strange words > Hi List > From a PCC will of 1535, William BOUNDE of Oundle, Northamptonshire, opinions please. > The will is totally legible. > All places mentioned in the will (except one in Warwickshire) are in Northamptonshire so presume this strange one is also > "Item I bequeath to "Grymbulble" Church where I was christened five pounds sterling" > My total guess is Guilsborough. > "And also the said four children to have 13s 4d divided amongst them, and to the maintenance of the light before the said five wounds in the said church, and to repair and find the said 2 Clerks and 3 children surplices to sing the said Salve and also give yearly to the Sexton for knolling of the bell at 6 of the clock mass "sakering" noon and the last Salve and lighting of the lights afore the said Five Wounds to have 2s 8d, and the said two Clerks and four children shall enter and to sing the said Salve at the Feast of Saint Michael the Archangel next ensuing" > Sacrament? > > Thanks Fay > > ______________________________

Hi Gary, According to the Oxford Dictionary of English Place Names, "Winmarleigh, Lancashire, Wynemerislega 1212, 'woodland clearing of a man called Winemaer' OE pers. name + leah Jackie Watts. > I've lost the msg. re the place names book. Could the gentleman who posted > it, check for what happened to Winmarleigh in Lancashire? > > WIN has meant both 'friend' and 'war' over the centuries. MAR escapes me > and everyone knows the meaning of LEIGH so figuring the meaning of this > name is difficult, at least for me. Any help is welcome. > > Gary > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > OLD-ENGLISH Web Page > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ >

Thank you, Jackie. You've been a great help. Gary According to the Oxford Dictionary of English Place Names, "Winmarleigh, Lancashire, Wynemerislega 1212, 'woodland clearing of a man called Winemaer' OE pers. name + leah Jackie Watts.