SEABRIGHT/SEBRIGHT is Anglo-Saxon meaning victory, bright. ================================================ Kings of Essex, Wessex and East Anglia all bore this name in the 600's and 700's.

Hello All I have a will for a John Meykin laborer (sic) 1636. He seems to leave quite a lot of money and assets for the time and I wondered if the term laborer was the same as we consider labourer today. Thanks Chris Bartlett

Quoting Gordon Barlow <barlow@candw.ky>: > > constable - 1. "The chief officer of the household, court, > administration, or > > military forces of a ruler." > > > > No mention of horses, stables etc. except that constable originally comes > from > > the Latin "comes stabuli" count or officer of the stable, but the meaning > had > > changed to the one given above before the word was adopted into English > from > > the French. > > Liz > > "Officer of the stable" sounds a pretty menial job at first hearing, but I > suppose it would have been the cultural equivalent of Minister of Transport > for a regional ruler. Is that likely? > > Gordon Barlow > Hi Gordon, That may have been the case originally for a constable, but not with regard to a staller. A staller was originally an officer of the Norwegian court, in the 10th century. The staller to Edward the confessor, according to the OED, was more like a field-marshall, of chief administrator, the King's right-hand man. A very high appointment, hardly menial and not an "officer of the stable"! Liz

Good Morning Ian et All - In Dorset PRs the Christian Elizabeth/Elisabeth is abbreviated to several variations: Ibe-Ibbot-Eb-Ebbot Etc., Regarding SEBOTT - Sebastion and SeabrightSebright seem to be worth considering? SEBASTION is used both as a Christian name and a surname, of Roman origin and used in the UK since at least the 16th century. SEABRIGHT/SEBRIGHT is Anglo-Saxon meaning victory, bright. The above is from three books on English names I have. Your transcriber's thinking on Sybil/Sybyl seems not unreasonable and my book gives the variation also of one SYBBY Cocke c.1515. Kind Regards June & Roy http://www.btinternet.com/~roy.cox/index.htm -----Original Message----- From: Ian Buckley [mailto:Ianbuckley@uko2.co.uk] Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2004 5:00 PM To: OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [OEL] Sybil/ Sebott I've come across the name 'Sebott' in a transcription made in the mid-15th century of a 14th century document. The transcriber clearly thought that it was a form of the personal name Sybil - possibly a local/ dialect form (N-W England), or a kind of family nickname. Has anyone come across anything similar, or can anyone shed any light on the name Sebott? Additionally, I wonder if anyone has any information on the popularity of the name Sybil in the Middle Ages. The first woman of that name in the family I have been researching would have been born circa 1280. Grateful for any help/ suggestions, Ian Buckley ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== Going away for a while? Don't forget to UNSUBSCRIBE! OLD-ENGLISH-L-request@rootsweb.com

>> > Liz >> >> "Officer of the stable" sounds a pretty menial job at first hearing, but I >> suppose it would have been the cultural equivalent of Minister of Transport >> for a regional ruler. Is that likely? >> >> Gordon Barlow >> >Hi Gordon, > >That may have been the case originally for a constable, but not with regard to a >staller. A staller was originally an officer of the Norwegian court, in the >10th century. > >The staller to Edward the confessor, according to the OED, was more like a >field-marshall, of chief administrator, the King's right-hand man. Not really in the job description - the development of the office is as indicated, and Gordon's suggestion of Minister of Transport sounds about right. Asgar had personal qualities which took him higher than the position of influence which another in his position might have attained. Robert, Earl of Leicester, was Master of the Horse to Queen Elizabeth - which in no way limited his influence over the lady. -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

In message <CLEOIFGLEIJMHKEDEPDJEEBPDJAA.woodcom@ihug.co.nz>, Chris Bartlett <woodcom@ihug.co.nz> writes > > >Hello All > >I have a will for a John Meykin laborer (sic) 1636. He seems to >leave quite a lot of money and assets quite likely. If he was neither a farmer nor a master craftsman, he may have had enough garden land (and the statutory four acres with every cottage|) to live on, but was generally a labourer for others, in the weeks when he did work outside, and had a few interesting sidelines, like mole catching, hedgelaying, egg selling, fishing, poaching... combined with a saving habit, then he could build up a little capital. He may also have recently received a legacy from his father or family, too. -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

In message <002301c42e03$06f47480$aa8ff8d4@Buckley>, Ian Buckley <Ianbuckley@uko2.co.uk> writes >I've come across the name 'Sebott' in a transcription made in the mid-15th >century of a 14th century document. The transcriber clearly thought that it was >a form of the personal name Sybil - possibly a local/ dialect form (N-W >England), or a kind of family nickname. Has anyone come across anything >similar, >or can anyone shed any light on the name Sebott? It is a habit in meadiaeval and even C16/17 manuscripts to put a cross mark through the double LL at the end of a word (and leave it off a double TT). This is purely to annoy and confuse. Sibyll was fairly uncommon but did occur regularly (like Parnell, Mariota, Dionisia (Dennis), Amiota, Audiarne/Odiarne, Jehane, Hawise, (all French/Norman origin) Wyborough, Collibery, Darnigold, (Saxon root) etc) -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

Hi Leigh, The OED has: staller - "The title of a high officer in the reign of Edward the Confessor, equivalent to constable 1." constable - 1. "The chief officer of the household, court, administration, or military forces of a ruler." No mention of horses, stables etc. except that constable originally comes from the Latin "comes stabuli" count or officer of the stable, but the meaning had changed to the one given above before the word was adopted into English from the French. Cheers, Liz in Melbourne Quoting YeagerLA@aol.com: > Ansgar is described as having been 'staller' to Edward the Confessor. I have > read various definitions of staller ranging from standard bearer through the > frankish 'count of the stable' leading to 'constable' and also 'keeper of > the royal stud' > Is it Ansgar's connection with the Lambourn Valley that has led some to > believe he was in control of the King's horses - is staller being translated too > literally here? Or was the job more military and local law enforcement do you > think? > Any help would be appreciated on this. > Kind regards > Leigh Driver > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > Going away for a while? > Don't forget to UNSUBSCRIBE! > OLD-ENGLISH-L-request@rootsweb.com > >

In message <146.2829088e.2dc255cd@aol.com>, YeagerLA@aol.com writes >Ansgar is described as having been 'staller' to Edward the Confessor. I have >read various definitions of staller ranging from standard bearer through the >frankish 'count of the stable' leading to 'constable' and also 'keeper of >the royal stud' >Is it Ansgar's connection with the Lambourn Valley that has led some to >believe he was in control of the King's horses sounds reasonable (and most appropriate for the area so concerned with horse racing) Kings constantly moved about the country -either hunting or on visits to their subjects and provincial justice centres- in those days, and the mode of transport was on horseback, so keeping up and looking after a large supply of horses was am important job in peacetime. Think - if the King had a sudden fancy to ride from A to B, and the only horses available in the royal stable were either tired from the last journey or battered old hacks which gave up after the first dozen miles. One of the functions of the King was as the fount of justice, and as it was difficult for the people to get to the King, the King came round regularly to the people. If there was any hint of insurrection, he would obviously be round that bit sooner, with axemen at the ready. So the staller, starting as a basic controller of horses, developed into the man who would organise punitive expeditions to show the royal strength around the country. -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

Apologies if this suggestion has been made before - I am a comparative newcomer to the list. Re the 1618 Will of John Cadde of Herefordshire in the 'unsolved' section: Could the missing parish name ('Edwarde ap Shone ap David of the p[ar]ishe of ________ ____ ') be Llanfihangel Crucorney, just over the border from Herefordshire in Monmouthshire? the parish name certainly starts 'Llan'. Ian Buckley

I've come across the name 'Sebott' in a transcription made in the mid-15th century of a 14th century document. The transcriber clearly thought that it was a form of the personal name Sybil - possibly a local/ dialect form (N-W England), or a kind of family nickname. Has anyone come across anything similar, or can anyone shed any light on the name Sebott? Additionally, I wonder if anyone has any information on the popularity of the name Sybil in the Middle Ages. The first woman of that name in the family I have been researching would have been born circa 1280. Grateful for any help/ suggestions, Ian Buckley

> constable - 1. "The chief officer of the household, court, administration, or > military forces of a ruler." > > No mention of horses, stables etc. except that constable originally comes from > the Latin "comes stabuli" count or officer of the stable, but the meaning had > changed to the one given above before the word was adopted into English from > the French. > Liz "Officer of the stable" sounds a pretty menial job at first hearing, but I suppose it would have been the cultural equivalent of Minister of Transport for a regional ruler. Is that likely? Gordon Barlow

Ansgar is described as having been 'staller' to Edward the Confessor. I have read various definitions of staller ranging from standard bearer through the frankish 'count of the stable' leading to 'constable' and also 'keeper of the royal stud' Is it Ansgar's connection with the Lambourn Valley that has led some to believe he was in control of the King's horses - is staller being translated too literally here? Or was the job more military and local law enforcement do you think? Any help would be appreciated on this. Kind regards Leigh Driver

In message <20040426211046.62092.qmail@web41507.mail.yahoo.com>, Laurie Kender <lkender@yahoo.com> writes >I apologize in advance if this isn't the correct forum >for this question, but I thought I'd give it a try. >I'm trying to understand why my great-grandfather >(1839-1898) used 'esquire' after his name. I >understand the medieval sense of the word, but not >quite sure how it was used in the 19th century. A lot depends on the date. At the beginning of the C19, the honorific was mostly used correctly, to mean a person with a coat of arms -so of a minor gentry family, untitled. I have a list dated 1861, of what must all have been fairly substantial men, all acting equally as stewards in connection with a political celebration, and they are carefully described as Sir AB, CD Esquire or Mr EF., making their position in society quite clear. However, by the end of the century, some people had taken it upon themselves to use it wrongly, just to denote a man with money. It would be quite feasible for someone emigrating to adopt the designation, because the people he met were unlikely to know his true position in society. -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

Fellow genealogists, Have you ever used the Internet to learn about genealogy methods and resources? Taken a genealogy course online? Read some 'how to' articles? Then I would like to hear from you. I am an Australian Ph.D. student who is currently writing a book chapter for an academic Virtual Learning Environment publication - my chapter is about using the Internet for genealogical education. I would therefore love to hear from you, fellow genealogists, about any Internet-based content you've used for genealogy education. This includes online courses (free or fee), how-to's, articles/columns, newsgroups, BBS, chat, mailing lists, forums, or even personal web pages that publish learning material - anything online that helps you in learning the craft of genealogy. Your comments on the following is of utmost interest: What are your favourite learning outlets on the Internet? How often do you use them? Can or did you find what you needed online? What are your learning successes? What could be better? What do you look for in genealogical learning on the Internet? If you would like to participate, your comments are extremely welcome. Please send your comments to me directly at research@veale.com.au before Saturday 1st May 2004. I thank you in advance for your participation in this academic research. Kylie Veale P.S. Names and email addresses will be protected and are therefore not included in the publication. Copies of the paper will be made available to interested participants on request, after the book has been published. ----------------------------------------------- Kylie J. Veale | Brisbane, Australia GradDipInvEnv, MInetStds(Design) Provisional PhD candidate http://www.veale.com.au/kylie icq: 27938257 msn: kyliej@hotmail.com yahoo: kylie_veale

Pretty sure it was just a courtesy title by this time, much the same as Mr. which is an abbreviation of Master. Master was formerly minor gentry. Nowadays everyone is a Mr. and Esquire can be used on the end of a name instead and was slightly more formal. It was this way into the 20th century. Joseph Bloggs, Esquire Mr. Joseph Bloggs or J. Bloggs, Esquire Mr. J. Bloggs It's a very long time since esquire meant the assistant to a knight - a few hundred years. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Laurie Kender" <lkender@yahoo.com> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, April 26, 2004 10:10 PM Subject: [OEL] Re: OLD-ENGLISH-D Digest V04 #58 > I apologize in advance if this isn't the correct forum > for this question, but I thought I'd give it a try. > I'm trying to understand why my great-grandfather > (1839-1898) used 'esquire' after his name. I > understand the medieval sense of the word, but not > quite sure how it was used in the 19th century. > > Would this have been some type of hereditary 'title', > implying some level of gentry, or some profession of a > higher order? Or is it likely he started using it > after he came to the US, thinking it would impress the > ignorant yanks<grin>? I don't believe he ever had > land, or came from 'money'; in fact, family stories > claim he was adopted by a minister when his parents > died... > > Any thoughts or insights would be much appreciated... > > Thanks in advance - > > Laurie Kender > in blustery-sunny-but-not-too-cold Indiana > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25¢ > http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > OLD-ENGLISH Web Page > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > >

Good Afternoon All - Just found this amongst my pile! I think it was said that English was in use instead of Latin before the Act of 1730? One of the Somerset newspapers papers (don't know the writer, have the date or which paper I'm afraid, just the cutting) - in its letters column: QUOTE: But I would mention some facts which prove that in England before the Reformation, the need was felt by a certain number of orthodox people, of introducing English into the liturgy in order to make it what it was to the early Christians, i.e. an act of common worship performed in joy and understanding. I borrow my information from The Old Service Books of the English Church, by Wordsworth and Little Hales, pages 50 to 54. The authors of this book mention an early vernacular service found in the Breviary of the Salisbury Cathedral Library, dating about 1470, and which as it seems originally belonged to the church of Arlingham, in Gloucestershire. END QUOTE: The cutting goes on to display samples to support this and further quotes from British Museum sources, if anyone would like the full extract I will be more than pleased to send it. Kind Regards June & Roy (SANHS Member No 1066) http://www.btinternet.com/~roy.cox/index.htm

I apologize in advance if this isn't the correct forum for this question, but I thought I'd give it a try. I'm trying to understand why my great-grandfather (1839-1898) used 'esquire' after his name. I understand the medieval sense of the word, but not quite sure how it was used in the 19th century. Would this have been some type of hereditary 'title', implying some level of gentry, or some profession of a higher order? Or is it likely he started using it after he came to the US, thinking it would impress the ignorant yanks<grin>? I don't believe he ever had land, or came from 'money'; in fact, family stories claim he was adopted by a minister when his parents died... Any thoughts or insights would be much appreciated... Thanks in advance - Laurie Kender in blustery-sunny-but-not-too-cold Indiana __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25� http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash

How about Cheshire Whauton? There's a Wharton in Cheshire. Cheers, Liz Quoting Lee <mlhaley@nor.com.au>: > Hi List, > > Thanks so much to all who have responded with their interpretation of Elizabeth Clark's > birthplace. The replies have been varied. > > So far we have: > > Cheshire, Sharston > Cheshire, Weaverham > Cheshire, Stretton > Cheshire, Wavertree or Waverton > Derbyshire, Belper > Church Stretton > Chilton or Cliddon > Brecon > Chedle > > > Lee > In Australia > mlhaley@nor.com.au > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > OLD-ENGLISH Web Page > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > >

Hi List, Thanks so much to all who have responded with their interpretation of Elizabeth Clark's birthplace. The replies have been varied. So far we have: Cheshire, Sharston Cheshire, Weaverham Cheshire, Stretton Cheshire, Wavertree or Waverton Derbyshire, Belper Church Stretton Chilton or Cliddon Brecon Chedle Lee In Australia mlhaley@nor.com.au