In message <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAhE8CT1AVkES4n n1C4wtrT8KAAAAQAAAALYFPoVDVfEung+4S6vROcAEAAAAA@btinternet.com>, Roy <roy.cox@btinternet.com> writes >Good Afternoon Sandra - > >I'll put this to the list as it may be of interest to some of our >researchers? > >Never come across this one, except that when my daughter was born in Berlin, >her birth was registered with the British Consulate and the BAOR HQ issued >the appropriate birth certificate, which was then recorded at the GRO. There >had to be a special certificate signed by the consulate before a certificate >was issued. Records of events to English and welsh subjects abroad which came within the notice of the consul (and one at the Embassy chapel had to) should be reported back to England and appear in the Consular Returns fiches which come at the end of a complete set of GRO indexes (including the 'Miscellaneous' sections. Try your nearest major county reference Library (or the FRC, or Kew, etc) > -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

> >Audrey (who no longer keeps a horse as children are all grown up and have >flown the nest). And it's jolly difficult to keep a horse in a nest - they will kick holes or eat the straw. -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

I desire that all those who are holding any of my land on trust for me are to give it back to my executors when properly asked to do so. It's just a pious utterance, as the "feoffees" would in any event have to give up land which they occupying in accordance with the terms of the particular "use" (old-style trust) in question. SANDRA LOVEGROVE Researching LOVEGROVEs in all places and at all times. Please do visit the LOVEGROVE Information Centre on http://www.lovegrove.org.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Annette Mclean" <dandamclean@xtra.co.nz> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: 12 May 2004 22:35 Subject: Will > Could some one please tell me what this means. > > From a 1525 Suffolk will ..I will that all my enfoeffees that are foeffed to my use in all such lands both freehold and copy which as I have that they and every ? of them to deliver estate to my executors according to my will at all timeswhensoever they shall be conveniently required. > > Thanks in advance > Annette > NZ > > ______________________________

Sandra, I also have a marriage in the Paris Embassy Chapel in 1829 - in this case they had a Faculty Office Marriage Licence issued three weeks before the marriage. I can't remember where I got this information from unfortunately. Nuala ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sandra Lovegrove" <sandra@lovegrove.org.uk> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2004 11:35 AM Subject: [OEL] Not very old, nor English > Probably off-message for this list (sorry) but does anyone know how to obtain > access to the records of British Embassy chapels? (Just found a reference to a > marriage at the Paris embassy chapel in 1842.)

Wow! A whole new meaning to "Horse-Power" - so I'm off to warn Tom Pearce - Kind Regards June & Roy (SANHS Member No 1066) http://www.btinternet.com/~roy.cox/index.htm -----Original Message----- From: norman.lee1 [mailto:norman.lee1@virgin.net] Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2004 1:30 PM To: OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [OEL] Re: Horsemeat We love our horses and that's why. Now a days, they're more like domestic pets rather than work animals. They always were rather special, until the 19th century that is. Before this they were kept mainly for riding and were the 17/18th century equivalent of the Ferari or Porsche, always valued most highly on probate inventories. During this time, animals used for draft began to change from the ox to the horse and you see that change in the inventories. There began to be far more horses; so that, when you get to the late 18th and early 19th centuries, horses for draft are more and more common and are used for draft in many places. Many of these draft animals were badly treated and there were charities set up to get legislation to prevent cruelty to these creatures and to provide inspection and retirement homes for them - hence, to this day, you get sancturies for retired pit ponies and donkey santuries. I can't remember anyone ever eating a donkey or mule but they, too, must have been and maybe still are, badly treated in some places. Now that the motor vehicle has fully taken the place of the horse for virtually all purposes, the only role left, apart from the ceremonial and police use, is closer to that of the domestic pet - children, show jumping etc., hunting of various sorts (controversial at the moment). To see a horse pulling a cart of any sort in the street is a curiosity to be marvelled at. There are still driving contests though - the Duke of Edinburgh was/is an expert and I have a feeling it may be an Olympic sport. However, on the mainland of Europe, traditions are different and they seem to prize horseflesh. When my children were little and had a pony, there was a lot of horse-rustling for selling to continent. I have a feeling that there still is some of this going on but the horse world has attempted to combate this in various ways. We had a little pony who was very broad with a large barrelled chest and we worried about him because he looked fat, even if at the end of March, he was starving or had a dose of worms. At the end of March, many horses, ponies are thin if they are kept outside and not stable-kept and often suffer with worms. This is the time when the worming medicine comes out. After that, the better weather and the new grass allows their food to take full affect and go into producing a bit of flesh/fat on their bones. So - beware the meat man! There must be money to be made from horseflesh - the dead sort! Apologies to all who know all about the above, already. Another interesting difference in the use of words to describe food crops is that of calling grain 'corn'. This does not always mean wheat and it depends in which part of the country you are which grain corn refers to. I have even heard it used in relation to horse nuts (a processed food for horses). Audrey (who no longer keeps a horse as children are all grown up and have flown the nest). ----- Original Message ----- From: "Elizabeth Atherton" <elizabeth.atherton@tesco.net> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 11:33 AM Subject: [OEL] Re: Horsemeat > In more modern times, it is interesting to see how the selling of > actual horseflesh to humans is disguised in England. A Belgian friend > took me to a > small Belgian restaurant in London & when I got up to go to the Ladies > he said, "Look at the inscription on that picture" And sure enough, > where you > expected to see "King of the Belgians" it said "This establishment is > licensed for the sale of horsemeat " > .. Elizabeth Atherton > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > OLD-ENGLISH Web Page > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== OLD-ENGLISH Web Page http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/

Good Afternoon Sandra - I'll put this to the list as it may be of interest to some of our researchers? Never come across this one, except that when my daughter was born in Berlin, her birth was registered with the British Consulate and the BAOR HQ issued the appropriate birth certificate, which was then recorded at the GRO. There had to be a special certificate signed by the consulate before a certificate was issued. A search on British Embassy Chapels returns nothing. I might suggest a visit to your local registrar as they should have some information? Kind Regards June & Roy (SANHS Member No 1066) http://www.btinternet.com/~roy.cox/index.htm -----Original Message----- From: Sandra Lovegrove [mailto:sandra@lovegrove.org.uk] Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2004 11:36 AM To: OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [OEL] Not very old, nor English Probably off-message for this list (sorry) but does anyone know how to obtain access to the records of British Embassy chapels? (Just found a reference to a marriage at the Paris embassy chapel in 1842.) SANDRA LOVEGROVE Researching LOVEGROVEs in all places and at all times. Please do visit the LOVEGROVE Information Centre on http://www.lovegrove.org.uk ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== OLD-ENGLISH Web Page http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/

I would try Kew PRO. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sandra Lovegrove" <sandra@lovegrove.org.uk> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2004 11:35 AM Subject: [OEL] Not very old, nor English > Probably off-message for this list (sorry) but does anyone know how to obtain > access to the records of British Embassy chapels? (Just found a reference to a > marriage at the Paris embassy chapel in 1842.) > > SANDRA LOVEGROVE > > Researching LOVEGROVEs in all places and at all times. > Please do visit the LOVEGROVE Information Centre on http://www.lovegrove.org.uk > > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > OLD-ENGLISH Web Page > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > >

We love our horses and that's why. Now a days, they're more like domestic pets rather than work animals. They always were rather special, until the 19th century that is. Before this they were kept mainly for riding and were the 17/18th century equivalent of the Ferari or Porsche, always valued most highly on probate inventories. During this time, animals used for draft began to change from the ox to the horse and you see that change in the inventories. There began to be far more horses; so that, when you get to the late 18th and early 19th centuries, horses for draft are more and more common and are used for draft in many places. Many of these draft animals were badly treated and there were charities set up to get legislation to prevent cruelty to these creatures and to provide inspection and retirement homes for them - hence, to this day, you get sancturies for retired pit ponies and donkey santuries. I can't remember anyone ever eating a donkey or mule but they, too, must have been and maybe still are, badly treated in some places. Now that the motor vehicle has fully taken the place of the horse for virtually all purposes, the only role left, apart from the ceremonial and police use, is closer to that of the domestic pet - children, show jumping etc., hunting of various sorts (controversial at the moment). To see a horse pulling a cart of any sort in the street is a curiosity to be marvelled at. There are still driving contests though - the Duke of Edinburgh was/is an expert and I have a feeling it may be an Olympic sport. However, on the mainland of Europe, traditions are different and they seem to prize horseflesh. When my children were little and had a pony, there was a lot of horse-rustling for selling to continent. I have a feeling that there still is some of this going on but the horse world has attempted to combate this in various ways. We had a little pony who was very broad with a large barrelled chest and we worried about him because he looked fat, even if at the end of March, he was starving or had a dose of worms. At the end of March, many horses, ponies are thin if they are kept outside and not stable-kept and often suffer with worms. This is the time when the worming medicine comes out. After that, the better weather and the new grass allows their food to take full affect and go into producing a bit of flesh/fat on their bones. So - beware the meat man! There must be money to be made from horseflesh - the dead sort! Apologies to all who know all about the above, already. Another interesting difference in the use of words to describe food crops is that of calling grain 'corn'. This does not always mean wheat and it depends in which part of the country you are which grain corn refers to. I have even heard it used in relation to horse nuts (a processed food for horses). Audrey (who no longer keeps a horse as children are all grown up and have flown the nest). ----- Original Message ----- From: "Elizabeth Atherton" <elizabeth.atherton@tesco.net> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 11:33 AM Subject: [OEL] Re: Horsemeat > In more modern times, it is interesting to see how the selling of actual > horseflesh to humans is disguised in England. A Belgian friend took me to a > small Belgian restaurant in London & when I got up to go to the Ladies he > said, "Look at the inscription on that picture" And sure enough, where you > expected to see "King of the Belgians" it said "This establishment is > licensed for the sale of horsemeat " > .. Elizabeth Atherton > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > OLD-ENGLISH Web Page > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > >

In message <002e01c4386e$2a00a5a0$0300a8c0@jamd>, Richard Akhurst <richard.akhurst@btinternet.com> writes >(Apologies if this has appeared twice.) > >I'm trying to find out about the tobacco trade into England (especially >London) in c1625. I am deciphering Court of the Exchequer documents about >a Ralphe Akehurst who was accused of n There are some useful extracts collected together in 'Economic Documents of the Seventeenth Century' which would fill in the background for you. > >My next step is to get a working knowledge of the tobacco trade in order to >put the >documents into context, see the book, though if you have a problem getting it from the Library, I will dig around (not this minute, since it would take a while.) -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

Dear Judith Is it possible that you have slightly misread Tobacco Rowle? Could this be Tobacco Rowe with an upwards stroke at the end of the w which is set to confuse almost anyone? If this is so, then Tobacco Rowe with be part of Tower Street, i.e. a row of shops, trading establishments or other business premises, or even a row of houses for the workers. Row is a word often just meaning a terrace of houses or other buildings in a longer street and often shows how a rural street has developed into a built up zone for either housing or business. I would try to have a look at two possible web sites (access through a search engine) that for W.H. Wills and the Imperial Tobacco Company (now tied up to British American Tobacco aka BAT). They are ancient founded companies and may well be able to provide you with information and perhaps archives addresses. The history of the George Inn at Southwark has been discussed on this list before now and I have a feeling it still survives. It is an old coaching inn and figured a great deal in trading of all sorts. It was a centre of trade - not cloak and dagger at all. Must go now. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Akhurst" <richard.akhurst@btinternet.com> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 11:12 PM Subject: [OEL] Background on tobacco trade England c1625 - help please > (Apologies if this has appeared twice.) > > I'm trying to find out about the tobacco trade into England (especially > London) in c1625. I am deciphering Court of the Exchequer documents about > a Ralphe Akehurst who was accused of non-payment of duty on a > hundred weight of tobacco in 1625. > > Ralphe had a tobacco business at the Tobacco Rowle in Tower Street and was > moving "burdens" in > "private ways". His people were going to the signe of the George in > Southwarke and the "dwelling" called Tobacco Rowle. All very cloak and > dagger.<g> > > So far I have street maps showing the George and Tower Street c1555, 1597 > and 1736 as well as some undated engravings of the George. > > My next step is to get a working knowledge of the tobacco trade in order to > put the > documents into context, and my initial questions are :- > > was tobacco only coming into England from America ? > how did the trade operate ? > what was the duty payable on tobacco ? > what was the cost of tobacco per pound after the duty had been paid ? > what was the usual size of cargo shipped ? > what is tobacco rowle ? > are there custom records available for c1625, and where could I find them ? > I have contacted the Customs & Excise Museum and am awaiting a reply. > > If anyone could give me any help, guidance or suggestions of where to look > etc, it would be much appreciated. > > I apologise if this is off-topic > > Regards and many thanks in advance > > Judith Akhurst > > > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > Going away for a while? > Don't forget to UNSUBSCRIBE! > OLD-ENGLISH-L-request@rootsweb.com > >

Probably off-message for this list (sorry) but does anyone know how to obtain access to the records of British Embassy chapels? (Just found a reference to a marriage at the Paris embassy chapel in 1842.) SANDRA LOVEGROVE Researching LOVEGROVEs in all places and at all times. Please do visit the LOVEGROVE Information Centre on http://www.lovegrove.org.uk

Could some one please tell me what this means. From a 1525 Suffolk will ..I will that all my enfoeffees that are foeffed to my use in all such lands both freehold and copy which as I have that they and every ? of them to deliver estate to my executors according to my will at all timeswhensoever they shall be conveniently required. Thanks in advance Annette NZ

(Apologies if this has appeared twice.) I'm trying to find out about the tobacco trade into England (especially London) in c1625. I am deciphering Court of the Exchequer documents about a Ralphe Akehurst who was accused of non-payment of duty on a hundred weight of tobacco in 1625. Ralphe had a tobacco business at the Tobacco Rowle in Tower Street and was moving "burdens" in "private ways". His people were going to the signe of the George in Southwarke and the "dwelling" called Tobacco Rowle. All very cloak and dagger.<g> So far I have street maps showing the George and Tower Street c1555, 1597 and 1736 as well as some undated engravings of the George. My next step is to get a working knowledge of the tobacco trade in order to put the documents into context, and my initial questions are :- was tobacco only coming into England from America ? how did the trade operate ? what was the duty payable on tobacco ? what was the cost of tobacco per pound after the duty had been paid ? what was the usual size of cargo shipped ? what is tobacco rowle ? are there custom records available for c1625, and where could I find them ? I have contacted the Customs & Excise Museum and am awaiting a reply. If anyone could give me any help, guidance or suggestions of where to look etc, it would be much appreciated. I apologise if this is off-topic Regards and many thanks in advance Judith Akhurst

In the 1611 version of the Bible 'meat' is used extensively where we would now say 'food'. For instance, what is called a 'meat-offering' is further described as being of meal (i.e. grain). Bob -----Original Message----- From: norman.lee1 <norman.lee1@virgin.net> To: OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Date: Wednesday, 12 May 2004 18:36 Subject: Re: [OEL] Horsemeat >Brings a whole new meaning the word 'meat', doesn't it. > >Audrey > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Roy" <roy.cox@btinternet.com> >To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> >Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 10:45 PM >Subject: RE: [OEL] Horsemeat > > >> And a very good evening to all - >> >> Thought horses were vegetarians:- ))) >> >> Kind Regards >> >> June & Roy (SANHS Member No 1066) >> http://www.btinternet.com/~roy.cox/index.htm >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Lyn Boothman [mailto:annys@boothman27.fsnet.co.uk] >> Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 10:28 PM >> To: OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com >> Subject: RE: [OEL] Horsemeat >> >> Beth >> It might have been horse meat as such, but it is probably more likely to >be >> "meat for the horse" i.e. food for the horse which he had riden to Arundel >> to get to the visitation. >> Lyn B >> >> >> >> >> ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== >> To UNSUBSCRIBE from list mode -- >> Send the one word UNSUBSCRIBE to >> OLD-ENGLISH-L-request@rootsweb.com >> >> >> ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== >> OLD-ENGLISH Web Page >> http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ >> > > >==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== >OLD-ENGLISH Web Page >http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > >

Good Afternoon - I don't think that either of these options were Alfred's palace as his Royal Palace was always at Winchester, around which was a network of burhs with strongpoints on the main river routes, so that no part of Wessex was more than 20 miles from the refuge of one of these settlements. This URL will explain more: http://www.royal.gov.uk/output/Page25.asp Kind Regards June & Roy (SANHS Member No 1066) http://www.btinternet.com/~roy.cox/index.htm -----Original Message----- From: YeagerLA@aol.com [mailto:YeagerLA@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 2:57 PM To: OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [OEL] Alfred the Great's Palace Hi I was wondering if someone could clear this up for me. Was Alfred the Great's palace at Westdean in the Cuckmere Valley, East Sussex, or at West Dean near Chichester, West Sussex? Kind regards Leigh Driver ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== To UNSUBSCRIBE from list mode -- Send the one word UNSUBSCRIBE to OLD-ENGLISH-L-request@rootsweb.com

In more modern times, it is interesting to see how the selling of actual horseflesh to humans is disguised in England. A Belgian friend took me to a small Belgian restaurant in London & when I got up to go to the Ladies he said, "Look at the inscription on that picture" And sure enough, where you expected to see "King of the Belgians" it said "This establishment is licensed for the sale of horsemeat " .. Elizabeth Atherton

In a message dated 12/05/2004 15:24:47 GMT Standard Time, roy.cox@btinternet.com writes: Good Afternoon - I don't think that either of these options were Alfred's palace as his Royal Palace was always at Winchester, around which was a network of burhs with strongpoints on the main river routes, so that no part of Wessex was more than 20 miles from the refuge of one of these settlements. This URL will explain more: http://www.royal.gov.uk/output/Page25.asp Kind Regards June & Roy (SANHS Member No 1066) _http://www.btinternet.com/~roy.cox/index.htm_ (http://www.btinternet.com/~roy.cox/index.htm) Hi Thanks for that I have taken a look at the site you suggest and it was very informative. It was this site that got me wondering. _http://www.villagenet.co.uk/sevensisters/villages/westdean.php_ (http://www.villagenet.co.uk/sevensisters/villages/westdean.php) The site calls the place West Dean but the village in the Cuckmore Valley is Westdean according to my map with West Dean being near Chichester. Hence my confusion. It had something to do with where he stayed when visiting the fleet apparently. All the best Kind regards Leigh

Hi I was wondering if someone could clear this up for me. Was Alfred the Great's palace at Westdean in the Cuckmere Valley, East Sussex, or at West Dean near Chichester, West Sussex? Kind regards Leigh Driver

Thank you, Lyn and Polly. I never thought of that. I found in the dictionary that the word 'meat' in days past simply meant food of any kind not animal flesh specifically. So I suppose we would say 'horsefeed' and mean the same thing. Beth

Brings a whole new meaning the word 'meat', doesn't it. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roy" <roy.cox@btinternet.com> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 10:45 PM Subject: RE: [OEL] Horsemeat > And a very good evening to all - > > Thought horses were vegetarians:- ))) > > Kind Regards > > June & Roy (SANHS Member No 1066) > http://www.btinternet.com/~roy.cox/index.htm > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Lyn Boothman [mailto:annys@boothman27.fsnet.co.uk] > Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 10:28 PM > To: OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: RE: [OEL] Horsemeat > > Beth > It might have been horse meat as such, but it is probably more likely to be > "meat for the horse" i.e. food for the horse which he had riden to Arundel > to get to the visitation. > Lyn B > > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > To UNSUBSCRIBE from list mode -- > Send the one word UNSUBSCRIBE to > OLD-ENGLISH-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > OLD-ENGLISH Web Page > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ >