In message <002f01c43f0b$946120c0$2dcdfc3e@oemcomputer>, "norman.lee1" <norman.lee1@virgin.net> writes >I take it that you're referring to ancient leasehold rather than the present >day. This is OEL! >Am I right in thinking that a lease of three lives and one of 90 years the 90 is a fixed term, through however mnany heirs. The 3 lives could be, say, Dad aged 30 and two sons (or 2 unrelated children) aged 5 and 6 - he might live another 50 years and they might live 70 or die when they were in their teens. Usually one life could be substituted for an extra fee. But if it was one fam,ily and they all took fever within a few years, and died within days of each other, before buying a substitution, the 3 life lease could be up in a handful of years., That was the gamble. > a > Am I >also right in thinking that a lease of lives may be more or less than three? Usually when it is quoted as a lease determinable upon 2 lives, it means the first two have gone and the options left are the last life and the substitute, Double substitution was possible, but the cost of doing it twice was much higher. I know of one man (A Catholic landlord desperate for ready cash) who actually gave one lease of 4 lives ab initio. -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

I have just realised that what I thought was a Bonlfying tubbe might be a boulfyring tubbe. regards Chris Bartlett > > > Hello All > > Here is another will with some words I am sure I have > transcribed correctly > > If these two are correct what is a ledging barrell and > a bonlfying tubbe? > > Also phile hrifore and fuorke. Is this file knife and fork? > > The rest is on the following web page > http://www.angelfire.com/bc3/woodcom/page20.html > > thanks > Chris Bartlett > > > > > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > OLD-ENGLISH Web Page > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > > >

Hello All Here is another will with some words I am sure I have transcribed correctly If these two are correct what is a ledging barrell and a bonlfying tubbe? Also phile hrifore and fuorke. Is this file knife and fork? The rest is on the following web page http://www.angelfire.com/bc3/woodcom/page20.html thanks Chris Bartlett

Line 3 - my pyde heyfore one fuorke Line 7 - Digwed her husband xiid apeece Line 8 - one flocke bed my owld kyver Line ? - bushel of barly The Resydue of all my goodes & movables Next line - being first payde & the [can't really tell without seeing the rest of the line] Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Bartlett" <woodcom@ihug.co.nz> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, May 21, 2004 11:59 AM Subject: [OEL] Will of Agnis Bartlett of Aston Oxon 1609 > > Hello All > > Here is another will with some words I am sure I have > transcribed correctly > > If these two are correct what is a ledging barrell and > a bonlfying tubbe? > > Also phile hrifore and fuorke. Is this file knife and fork? > > The rest is on the following web page > http://www.angelfire.com/bc3/woodcom/page20.html > > thanks > Chris Bartlett > > > > > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > OLD-ENGLISH Web Page > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ >

I take it that you're referring to ancient leasehold rather than the present day. If that were the case today, it could make a difference to the tax situation of a 999 year type lease. Am I right in thinking that a lease of three lives and one of 90 years are similar in some respects as a life was reckoned to last for 30 years? Am I also right in thinking that a lease of lives may be more or less than three? Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eve McLaughlin" <eve@varneys.demon.co.uk> To: "norman.lee1" <norman.lee1@virgin.net> Cc: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2004 6:32 PM Subject: Re: [OEL] Re: Will > In message <005801c43df7$82175480$a0d0fc3e@oemcomputer>, "norman.lee1" > <norman.lee1@virgin.net> writes > >Just intruding on this one. > > > >"Freehold and copy" means freehold and copyhold land. Copyhold is a type of > >leasehold land, usually a long lease > Not really > copyhold is normally a perpetual tenancy in a manor, which can be passed > from father to son or sold too. Leasehold is ownership for a finite > number of years (often 9, 19, 99 etc, with the rare 250 or very rare > 999) The record of a lease will possibly be in estate papers but not in > a manorial court roll. > Copyhold counts as real estate while leasehold, as a wasting asset, > counts as personal estate. > There is a type of leasehold known as a 'lease of lives', for an > unfixed term - as long as 3 named persons are alive. It can usually be > extended by one life, on payment of extra money. Apart possibly from > the first one, the 'lives' are not the owners, just healthy looking > young persons chosen for their staying power. > > > -- > Eve McLaughlin > > Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians > Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

Audrey, by coincidence I was just looking for that book - I can't remember whether I bought it or had it from the library - to answer a question about mourning for someone on another list. I have just found the answer I wanted in another very interesting book, David Cressy's 'Birth Marriage and Death, ritual, religion and the life-cycle in tudor and stuart England' - OUP 1997, ISBN0-19-820168-0. Lyn B

Hello All I have uploaded parts of John Arthers will to my website and highlighted either whole or part words that are missing. In the second part of the will he "apoynts to be _yne _ersters me John Brey esquior" I cant find what the letters in front of these words are and think it is "Mr" John Brey not "me" as I have accidentally put on my website. The missing words in the first part I cant make out at all. They are at the following web page. http://www.angelfire.com/bc3/woodcom/page21.html Any help would be appreciated Thanks Chris Bartlett

Some time ago I recommended a book to someone on the list but couldn't find it to give the correct details. I've now found the book but can't remember who I wrote to about it. So here are the details. I think it's a very interesting book. It's based on a thesis for a degree gained by the author. It is Death, Burial and the Individual in Early Modern England by Clare Gittings. First published in 1984 by Croom Helm. Repringed in 1988 by Routledge, a divisiion of Routledge, Chapman and Hall, 11 New Fetter Lane, London EC4P 4EE. Audrey

In message <005801c43df7$82175480$a0d0fc3e@oemcomputer>, "norman.lee1" <norman.lee1@virgin.net> writes >Just intruding on this one. > >"Freehold and copy" means freehold and copyhold land. Copyhold is a type of >leasehold land, usually a long lease Not really copyhold is normally a perpetual tenancy in a manor, which can be passed from father to son or sold too. Leasehold is ownership for a finite number of years (often 9, 19, 99 etc, with the rare 250 or very rare 999) The record of a lease will possibly be in estate papers but not in a manorial court roll. Copyhold counts as real estate while leasehold, as a wasting asset, counts as personal estate. There is a type of leasehold known as a 'lease of lives', for an unfixed term - as long as 3 named persons are alive. It can usually be extended by one life, on payment of extra money. Apart possibly from the first one, the 'lives' are not the owners, just healthy looking young persons chosen for their staying power. -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

>I have uploaded parts of John Arthers will to my website and >highlighted either whole or part words that are missing. In >the second part of the will he "apoynts to be _yne _ersters Myne Overseers (and that could be written Ov'seers) meaning the persons who kept an eye on the executor of a will, to see that the rpovisions were carried out according to the testator's wishes. > >me John Brey esquior" I cant find what the letters in front >of these words are and think it is "Mr" John Brey not "me" M and a superscxript sort of squiggle - Master, Mr -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

Chris > I have uploaded parts of John Arthers will to my website and > highlighted either whole or part words that are missing. In > the second part of the will he "apoynts to be _yne _ersters > me John Brey esquior" I cant find what the letters in front > of these words are and think it is "Mr" John Brey not "me" > as I have accidentally put on my website. > > The missing words in the first part I cant make out at all. > They are at the following web page. > > http://www.angelfire.com/bc3/woodcom/page21.html ... duringe her lyfe yf my sonne Richard doe quietly inioye [enjoy] the howses ... ... within the howse and wthout ... ... I appoynt to be myne overseers mr John Brey ... Paul Cutmore

Hi Chris, First extract:- Line 5 The word is yt, i.e. that Line 6 should read - "inioye the howses and landes thereto belonging, Item I give" Line 8 - "stuffe w[i]thin the howse and w[i]thout duringe her widow estate 2nd extract:- Line 4 - "women I appoynt to be myne overseers Mr John Brey esquire" Line 5 - "and Israell Curtis" etc Line 7 - "John Bray Rob[er]te Johns minister, Israell Curtis./" Hope this helps, Regards, Martyn Chris Bartlett <woodcom@ihug.co.nz> wrote: Hello All I have uploaded parts of John Arthers will to my website and highlighted either whole or part words that are missing. In the second part of the will he "apoynts to be _yne _ersters me John Brey esquior" I cant find what the letters in front of these words are and think it is "Mr" John Brey not "me" as I have accidentally put on my website. The missing words in the first part I cant make out at all. They are at the following web page. http://www.angelfire.com/bc3/woodcom/page21.html Any help would be appreciated Thanks Chris Bartlett ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== Going away for a while? Don't forget to UNSUBSCRIBE! OLD-ENGLISH-L-request@rootsweb.com

Hi Sandra In this text what does the term copy mean in "both freehold and copy"? Another question: If a child is the "bafe" child, does that means she is illegitimate? If so is it usual then to take the father's surname? I am talking of the early 1700's. Annette From: "Sandra Lovegrove" <sandra@lovegrove.org.uk> Subject: [OEL] Re: Will > I desire that all those who are holding any of my land on trust for me are to > give it back to my executors when properly asked to do so. > > It's just a pious utterance, as the "feoffees" would in any event have to give > up land which they occupying in accordance with the terms of the particular > "use" (old-style trust) in question. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Annette Mclean" <dandamclean@xtra.co.nz> > Subject: Will > > Could some one please tell me what this means. > > > > From a 1525 Suffolk will ..I will that all my enfoeffees that are foeffed to > my use in all such lands both freehold and copy which as I have that they and > every ? of them to deliver estate to my executors according to my will at all > timeswhensoever they shall be conveniently required. > > > > Thanks in advance > > Annette >

Just intruding on this one. "Freehold and copy" means freehold and copyhold land. Copyhold is a type of leasehold land, usually a long lease written into the manor roll and hence the 'copy' part of the word. "Bafe" is probably "base" with the long s and does usually refer to illegitimacy. There is no rule as to the surname that has to be used. It can be the mother's name or the father's, often depending upon whose family has the most influence. Sometimes you get an alias put in, e.g. John Smith alias Jones, using both surnames. In this case, I often think the mother is hedging her bets but that's just my idea. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Annette Mclean" <dandamclean@xtra.co.nz> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 10:28 PM Subject: Re: [OEL] Re: Will > Hi Sandra > In this text what does the term copy mean in "both freehold and copy"? > > Another question: If a child is the "bafe" child, does that means she is > illegitimate? If so is it usual then to take the father's surname? I am > talking of the early 1700's. > > Annette > > From: "Sandra Lovegrove" <sandra@lovegrove.org.uk> > Subject: [OEL] Re: Will > > > > I desire that all those who are holding any of my land on trust for me are > to > > give it back to my executors when properly asked to do so. > > > > It's just a pious utterance, as the "feoffees" would in any event have to > give > > up land which they occupying in accordance with the terms of the > particular > > "use" (old-style trust) in question. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Annette Mclean" <dandamclean@xtra.co.nz> > > Subject: Will > > > > Could some one please tell me what this means. > > > > > > From a 1525 Suffolk will ..I will that all my enfoeffees that are > foeffed to > > my use in all such lands both freehold and copy which as I have that they > and > > every ? of them to deliver estate to my executors according to my will at > all > > timeswhensoever they shall be conveniently required. > > > > > > Thanks in advance > > > Annette > > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > THREADED archives for OLD-ENGLISH: > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > >

Paul Thank you. I have already confused the "d" and "e" a couple of times and you are right. regards Chris Bartlett > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul Prescott [mailto:paul.prescott@toranean.freeserve.co.uk] > Sent: Wednesday, 19 May 2004 10:44 p.m. > To: Chris Bartlett; OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [OEL] "Myesomer" from 1616 will > > > Chris: > > Could the "e" not be a "d"? They look very similar in script of that > period. Then it would read "mydsomer" which makes perfect sense. > > Best wishes > > Paul Prescott > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chris Bartlett" <woodcom@ihug.co.nz> > To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 11:27 AM > Subject: [OEL] "Myesomer" from 1616 will > > > > Hello all > > > > I am not sure if I have this quite right. Was there a > > time in the year called Myesomer > > > > Her earlier refers to Somer and Wynter so I assume it > > could be "my summer" > > > > Here is the context. > > > > Item my (will) is my sonne William shall beare with his > > brother Richd Arther for the payment of __ from myesomer > > next until mychaelmas next > > > > regards > > Chris Bartlett > > > > > > > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > > To contact the list administrator: > > OLD-ENGLISH-admin@rootsweb.com > > > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.687 / Virus Database: 448 - Release Date: 16-05-2004 > > >

Hello all I am not sure if I have this quite right. Was there a time in the year called Myesomer Her earlier refers to Somer and Wynter so I assume it could be "my summer" Here is the context. Item my (will) is my sonne William shall beare with his brother Richd Arther for the payment of __ from myesomer next until mychaelmas next regards Chris Bartlett

>Here is the context. > >Item my (will) is my sonne William shall beare with his >brother Richd Arther for the payment of __ from myesomer >next until mychaelmas next Midsummer - a d curved back over itself looks like an e (whereas an e looks like an o) The payment is for a quarter year. -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

Good afternoon - What a pleasant thought to pass on to your family " From My Summer next...." But 'Tis Mid-Summer of course as Paul says ... Kind Regards June & Roy (SANHS Member No 1066) http://www.btinternet.com/~roy.cox/index.htm -----Original Message----- From: Chris Bartlett [mailto:woodcom@ihug.co.nz] Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 11:55 AM To: OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com Subject: RE: [OEL] "Myesomer" from 1616 will Paul Thank you. I have already confused the "d" and "e" a couple of times and you are right. regards Chris Bartlett > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul Prescott [mailto:paul.prescott@toranean.freeserve.co.uk] > Sent: Wednesday, 19 May 2004 10:44 p.m. > To: Chris Bartlett; OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [OEL] "Myesomer" from 1616 will > > > Chris: > > Could the "e" not be a "d"? They look very similar in script of that > period. Then it would read "mydsomer" which makes perfect sense. > > Best wishes > > Paul Prescott > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chris Bartlett" <woodcom@ihug.co.nz> > To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 11:27 AM > Subject: [OEL] "Myesomer" from 1616 will > > > > Hello all > > > > I am not sure if I have this quite right. Was there a time in the > > year called Myesomer > > > > Her earlier refers to Somer and Wynter so I assume it could be "my > > summer" > > > > Here is the context. > > > > Item my (will) is my sonne William shall beare with his brother > > Richd Arther for the payment of __ from myesomer next until > > mychaelmas next > > > > regards > > Chris Bartlett > > > > > > > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > > To contact the list administrator: > > OLD-ENGLISH-admin@rootsweb.com > > > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.687 / Virus Database: 448 - Release Date: 16-05-2004 > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== OLD-ENGLISH Web Page http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/

Chris: Could the "e" not be a "d"? They look very similar in script of that period. Then it would read "mydsomer" which makes perfect sense. Best wishes Paul Prescott ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Bartlett" <woodcom@ihug.co.nz> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 11:27 AM Subject: [OEL] "Myesomer" from 1616 will > Hello all > > I am not sure if I have this quite right. Was there a > time in the year called Myesomer > > Her earlier refers to Somer and Wynter so I assume it > could be "my summer" > > Here is the context. > > Item my (will) is my sonne William shall beare with his > brother Richd Arther for the payment of __ from myesomer > next until mychaelmas next > > regards > Chris Bartlett > > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > To contact the list administrator: > OLD-ENGLISH-admin@rootsweb.com > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.687 / Virus Database: 448 - Release Date: 16-05-2004

Hi, The George Inn certainly does still exist. It is in Southwark near London Bridge Station. It belongs to the National Trust. You should also check out Tobacco Dock which is in London's Docklands on the North side of the River (off The Highway.). Function follows name or vice versa! It was converted into a "speciality shopping centre in the 1980s but failed at that. I don't know what it is used for now. Regards Dick "Adversity is the first path to the truth" (Lord Byron)