>My sense of humour suggest "Boulfyring tubbe" is a tub for boiling >bullfrogs, good protein? LOL A pretty thought (*or unpretty one). But sounds like a (boultyring) boltering tub, for sifting the lumpy bits out of flour. -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

Good Evening All I have a problem with a Latin motto which appears in the light of a church that I am writing up the history of. I wonder if some kind soul can help please? "STATERAM NE TRANSGREDIARIS" I think the problem lies with the first word which may not be spelt correctly? Included in the same light are the arms of a Stourton family but there is nothing to suggest that the Arms relate to the motto. Kind Regards and thanking you advance June & Roy (SANHS Member No 1066) http://www.btinternet.com/~roy.cox/index.htm

My sense of humour suggest "Boulfyring tubbe" is a tub for boiling bullfrogs, good protein? LOL Now don't be cross. Robin in West Oz > ______________________________

It appears to say: "Council (to those who) Question (the) Pass Over". Sincerely, James E. Hargraves In a message dated 5/25/2004 1:58:39 PM Pacific Standard Time, roy.cox@btinternet.com writes: Good Evening All I have a problem with a Latin motto which appears in the light of a church that I am writing up the history of. I wonder if some kind soul can help please? "STATERAM NE TRANSGREDIARIS" I think the problem lies with the first word which may not be spelt correctly? Included in the same light are the arms of a Stourton family but there is nothing to suggest that the Arms relate to the motto. Kind Regards and thanking you advance June & Roy (SANHS Member No 1066) http://www.btinternet.com/~roy.cox/index.htm ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== Going away for a while? Don't forget to UNSUBSCRIBE! OLD-ENGLISH-L-request@rootsweb.com

Regarding LEDGING BARREL In many of the northern dialects a laggin was a part of the structure of a cask or barrel, on occasion it would refer to a stave and another time to a hoop. This derivation seems somewhat doubtful considering the will in question was written in Oxfordshire. The most southerly use of the term appears to come from Shropshire when it was pronounced ledgen. For further information refer to The English Dialect Dictionary. Regards, Miles Costello

Hello List, "ledging barrel" I wonder if this could be a horizontally cut half barrel used for leaching lye from ashes to make soap? ledging / leaching ? The fact that this is bequeathed to a married daughter might be relevant. A leaching barrel could be hollowed out from a stout trunk or be made from planks as was the standard barrel, and could be placed on a ledge or shelf to allow the lye to drain to one end, where it could be released for soap making. Just a thought. regards, Ada Ackerly, Melbourne, Australia formerly Ackerly DocuSearch

In message <GCEKLAOCOBMJPEMJEJLOGEMEFNAA.julia.hunt@ntlworld.com>, Julia Hunt <julia.hunt@ntlworld.com> writes >I have the following in the will of Elline Thorne of Aldbourne, Wilts., and >proved in Marlborough in 1607: > > > Item I give to my daughter Jane my best kevir a kevir, kiver, civer etc is a slope sided oblong wooden trough for proving dough (or in some cases for skimming milk (a milk civer) which must have been proved firsdt to make the joints tight.) -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

> "....by Digwed her husband twelve pence ....." (not two pence) > What a lovely name for a husband! My guess is that the modern development of the name is David - following a g-y shift in some local dialect. Any other offers? Gordon Barlow

Some of the lines have not been fully reproduced so it is not possible to check the context. Here are my offerings for most of the queries: "....my pheetherbede [not completely certain about this one, especially since "fether" rendered with an F in the previous line] one smocke (not "fuorke") "....by Digwed her husband twelve pence ....." (not two pence) "my oulde kyver" "boulthing tubbe" "to Mary Howse" "the Resydue of all my goods and movables" (i.e. chattels)....."my debts and legacies first payde and the costs....." SANDRA LOVEGROVE Researching LOVEGROVEs in all places and at all times. Please do visit the LOVEGROVE Information Centre on http://www.lovegrove.org.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Bartlett" <woodcom@ihug.co.nz> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: 21 May 2004 11:59 Subject: Will of Agnis Bartlett of Aston Oxon 1609 > Hello All > > Here is another will with some words I am sure I have > transcribed correctly > > If these two are correct what is a ledging barrell and > a bonlfying tubbe? > > Also phile hrifore and fuorke. Is this file knife and fork? > > The rest is on the following web page > http://www.angelfire.com/bc3/woodcom/page20.html > > thanks > Chris Bartlett > > > > > >

I have the following in the will of Elline Thorne of Aldbourne, Wilts., and proved in Marlborough in 1607: Item I give to my daughter Jane my best kevir and a lidging barrill Item I give to my daughter Agnis Thorne a kevir and a lidging barrill I have not found out its meaning yet. However, I have found the following in "A Glossary of Household, Farming and Trade Terms from Probate Inventories [mainly in Derbyshire]" by Rosemary Milward: Letch (lech) = vessel for holding ashes for making lye for washing. It would seem reasonable that 'lidging' was from the same root as 'ledging' and 'letch' and was also to do with the making of lye. What do others think? Julia Hunt -----Original Message----- From: mjcl [mailto:mjcl@btinternet.com] Sent: 23 May 2004 12:41 To: OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [OEL] Will of Agnis Bartlett of Aston Oxon 1609 Bolting is the separating of bran from flour. I have no idea what ledging is in the context of a ledging barrell. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.690 / Virus Database: 451 - Release Date: 22/05/2004

> copyhold is normally a perpetual tenancy in a manor, which can be passed > from father to son or sold too. Leasehold is ownership for a finite > number of years (often 9, 19, 99 etc, with the rare 250 or very rare > 999) > Eve McLaughlin > It may amuse Listers to know that the 999-years concept is not dead yet. When we bought an apartment here in this British Caribbean colony in 1978, there was no condominiums law or strata law. There was a 999-years' Head Lease from the owners of the freehold land to a company that owned the 12 apartments built on it, and a 999-years' Sub-Lease from the company to us. Ground rent of one dollar Jamaican per year; the J$ was then worth five local cents, so I gave the landowner a buck to keep him quiet for the next 20 years. There was a long list of things in the leases telling the lessees what we could and couldn't do during the last few years before the leases expired. I hope somebody remembers... Later, when a strata law was introduced, the landowners wanted us twelve sub-lessees to convert to strata. But he didn't offer us any decent incentive, so we refused. To the best of my knowledge the units are still subject to the leases. Only 976 years to go! Gordon Barlow

Hello Chris, I have done a transcription of each section and it goes as follows: A 1. my neece one fether boulster & one sheete Item I give to Agnis 2. Howse my daughter one payreof shetes my pyde heyfore one smocke 3. and one table Cloth, Item I give to the 4 children of Agnis Howse B 1. one bushell of wheate apeece Item I give to Alice Digweed 2. one payre of sheetes one coverlet one ledging barrell and to 3. all her children w[hi]ch she hath by Digweed her husband xijd apeece 4. Item I give to John Thomas one flocke bed my owld kyver 5. an ij bushell of barly Item I gibe to Willia[m] Thomas one shepe C 1. the sonne of Henry Bartlet one shepe one payre of sheetes 2. and one bushell of wheate Item I give to Mary Howse one 3. table cloth. Item I give to the other 6 children of Henry D 1. Item I givwe to Ellen Bartlet also my boultyng tubbe. Item I 2. give to Edward Young my brothrt ij bushell of wheate & ij 3. bushell of barly The Resydue of all my goodes & movables 4. unbequethed my debtes and legaces being first payde & the costes & Bolting is the separating of bran from flour. I have no idea what ledging is in the context of a ledging barrell. Hope that this is of use, Best wishes, Martyn Chris Bartlett <woodcom@ihug.co.nz> wrote: Hello All Here is another will with some words I am sure I have transcribed correctly If these two are correct what is a ledging barrell and a bonlfying tubbe? Also phile hrifore and fuorke. Is this file knife and fork? The rest is on the following web page http://www.angelfire.com/bc3/woodcom/page20.html thanks Chris Bartlett ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== OLD-ENGLISH Web Page http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/

Thanks very much Ginny. You've set my mind at rest now. We even had a skewbald pony for a while and yet still I couldn't remember the word. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Virginia Sandstedt" <sandstedt1@earthlink.net> To: "norman.lee1" <norman.lee1@virgin.net>; <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2004 8:16 PM Subject: Re: [OEL] Will of Agnis Bartlett of Aston Oxon 1609 > Hi > > This is a site for piebald (black and white) and skewbald (brown and white) > horses, but I'm sure that cattle would have the same color names in this > context. http://www.theipsa.com/definition.htm > > Ginny > > > > At 22-05-04 10:50 AM, norman.lee1 wrote: > >Dear Chris > > > >A pied heifer is a black and white cow. I'm just trying to remember now the > >word for a brown and white animal. I do know that there are different words > >but think that black and white is pied. > > > >Audrey > > >

Oph! So obvious isn't it? Pronunciation - as she is spelt! Kind Regards June & Roy (SANHS Member No 1066) http://www.btinternet.com/~roy.cox/index.htm -----Original Message----- From: Eve McLaughlin [mailto:eve@varneys.demon.co.uk] Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2004 7:02 PM To: OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [OEL] Will of Agnis Bartlett of Aston Oxon 1609 > >Why can I always see the answers when someone points them out. >one of my spellings was "pyde heyfore and fuorke" > >The question now is what is or are a "Pyde heyfore"? a heifer cow with a blotchy black and white skin -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== Going away for a while? Don't forget to UNSUBSCRIBE! OLD-ENGLISH-L-request@rootsweb.com

> >Why can I always see the answers when someone points them out. >one of my spellings was "pyde heyfore and fuorke" > >The question now is what is or are a "Pyde heyfore"? a heifer cow with a blotchy black and white skin -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

Dear Chris A pied heifer is a black and white cow. I'm just trying to remember now the word for a brown and white animal. I do know that there are different words but think that black and white is pied. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Bartlett" <woodcom@ihug.co.nz> To: "norman.lee1" <norman.lee1@virgin.net>; <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, May 21, 2004 11:29 PM Subject: RE: [OEL] Will of Agnis Bartlett of Aston Oxon 1609 > Hello Audrey > > Thank you for your help > > Why can I always see the answers when someone points them out. > one of my spellings was "pyde heyfore and fuorke" > > The question now is what is or are a "Pyde heyfore"? > > regards > Chris Bartlett > > Subject: Re: [OEL] Will of Agnis Bartlett of Aston Oxon 1609 > > > > > > Line 3 - my pyde heyfore one fuorke > > > > Line 7 - Digwed her husband xiid apeece > > > > Line 8 - one flocke bed my owld kyver > > > > Line ? - bushel of barly The Resydue of all my goodes & movables > > > > Next line - being first payde & the [can't really tell without seeing the > > rest of the line] > > > > Audrey > > > > > > Hello All > > > > > > Here is another will with some words I am sure I have > > > transcribed correctly > > > > > > If these two are correct what is a ledging barrell and > > > a bonlfying tubbe? > > > > > > Also phile hrifore and fuorke. Is this file knife and fork? > > > > > > The rest is on the following web page > > > http://www.angelfire.com/bc3/woodcom/page20.html > > > > > > thanks > > > Chris Bartlett > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > > > OLD-ENGLISH Web Page > > > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > > > > > > > > > > >

<<Am I right in thinking that a lease of three lives and one of 90 years are similar in some respects as a life was reckoned to last for 30 years? >> The reference to 90 years relates to the land law reforms of 1925 when a "lease for lives" was converted into a lease for 90 years. <<Am I also right in thinking that a lease of lives may be more or less than three?>> Yes and no. Depends at what date. The "tenancy pur autre vie" was a device used to create an uninheritable freehold, and rules developed over the centuries. Multiple lives were a safeguard against the effect of premature death; renewal could be effected by adding extra lives. You are getting into an extremely technical area of law here, overlapping the "rule against perpetuities", which notoriously sends law students to the very brink of insanity. Trust me: you really don't want to go there. However, if you are deeply into masochism you could borrow one of the weightier legal history textbooks from a reference library; find a secluded place; remove objects which could be damaged when thrown; cover an ice-pack with a towel; wind towel round head (for protection when banged); breathe calmly and deeply, then........ SANDRA LOVEGROVE Researching LOVEGROVEs in all places and at all times. Please do visit the LOVEGROVE Information Centre on http://www.lovegrove.org.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "norman.lee1" <norman.lee1@virgin.net> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: 21 May 2004 09:13 Subject: Re: [OEL] Re: Will > I take it that you're referring to ancient leasehold rather than the present > day. If that were the case today, it could make a difference to the tax > situation of a 999 year type lease. > > Am I right in thinking that a lease of three lives and one of 90 years are > similar in some respects as a life was reckoned to last for 30 years? Am I > also right in thinking that a lease of lives may be more or less than three? > > Audrey

Hi This is a site for piebald (black and white) and skewbald (brown and white) horses, but I'm sure that cattle would have the same color names in this context. http://www.theipsa.com/definition.htm Ginny At 22-05-04 10:50 AM, norman.lee1 wrote: >Dear Chris > >A pied heifer is a black and white cow. I'm just trying to remember now the >word for a brown and white animal. I do know that there are different words >but think that black and white is pied. > >Audrey

Hello Audrey Thank you for your help Why can I always see the answers when someone points them out. one of my spellings was "pyde heyfore and fuorke" The question now is what is or are a "Pyde heyfore"? regards Chris Bartlett Subject: Re: [OEL] Will of Agnis Bartlett of Aston Oxon 1609 > > > Line 3 - my pyde heyfore one fuorke > > Line 7 - Digwed her husband xiid apeece > > Line 8 - one flocke bed my owld kyver > > Line ? - bushel of barly The Resydue of all my goodes & movables > > Next line - being first payde & the [can't really tell without seeing the > rest of the line] > > Audrey > > > > Hello All > > > > Here is another will with some words I am sure I have > > transcribed correctly > > > > If these two are correct what is a ledging barrell and > > a bonlfying tubbe? > > > > Also phile hrifore and fuorke. Is this file knife and fork? > > > > The rest is on the following web page > > http://www.angelfire.com/bc3/woodcom/page20.html > > > > thanks > > Chris Bartlett > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > > OLD-ENGLISH Web Page > > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > > > > >

Could a "pyde heyfore" be "pied heifer" a spotted cow ? -----Original Message----- From: Chris Bartlett [mailto:woodcom@ihug.co.nz] Sent: 21 May 2004 23:30 To: OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com Subject: RE: [OEL] Will of Agnis Bartlett of Aston Oxon 1609 Hello Audrey Thank you for your help Why can I always see the answers when someone points them out. one of my spellings was "pyde heyfore and fuorke" The question now is what is or are a "Pyde heyfore"? regards Chris Bartlett Subject: Re: [OEL] Will of Agnis Bartlett of Aston Oxon 1609 > > > Line 3 - my pyde heyfore one fuorke > > Line 7 - Digwed her husband xiid apeece > > Line 8 - one flocke bed my owld kyver > > Line ? - bushel of barly The Resydue of all my goodes & movables > > Next line - being first payde & the [can't really tell without seeing the > rest of the line] > > Audrey > > > > Hello All > > > > Here is another will with some words I am sure I have > > transcribed correctly > > > > If these two are correct what is a ledging barrell and > > a bonlfying tubbe? > > > > Also phile hrifore and fuorke. Is this file knife and fork? > > > > The rest is on the following web page > > http://www.angelfire.com/bc3/woodcom/page20.html > > > > thanks > > Chris Bartlett > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > > OLD-ENGLISH Web Page > > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== OLD-ENGLISH Web Page http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/