Hello all I have obtained an inventory compiled in 1607 which contains some items about which I hope someone will be able to to provide some information Item 1 four iron candlesticks, five seggni chairs, one cheese toaster, one iron shoe and dozen of iron stands Item 2 One bacon rack, one dresser with drawers, two tables, two tin coffe pots and wax candle box In Item 1. What is a seggni chair? In Item 2. Was "coffee" a common beverage in 1607 or could the transcription be incorrect? Regards Byron Bundaberg, Australia

A suggestion re your 'seggni' chairs, that the word might be an adjectival form of 'sedge' (usually 'sedgen'), which has been a common material through the centuries for chair seats. Ian

Byron: Coffee was rare as Liz says. But coffers (ie chests) were very common items in inventories, particularly when listed alongside other furniture. Best wishes Paul Prescott ----- Original Message ----- From: <emagar@hotkey.net.au> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 8:14 AM Subject: Re: [OEL] Words in inventory > Hi Byron, > > I can't offer a suggestion yet re the seggni chair, but can offer a little > re the coffe pots. > > According to the OED, 1607 is very early for the word coffe (as in coffee) > to be in the English language. The OED gives various citations under three > headings: > > 1. Foreign forms [such as kahve and kauhi] - earliest citation 1598, with > Turkish connections > 2. Coffa caffe, capha - earliest citation 1603 > 3. Cauphe, cophie, cophee, coffe, coffee, etc. - earliest citation 1601. > > The first citation for coffee pot is 1705. So coffee can't have been all > that common in 1607. Did the owner have Turkish or "East Indian" connections? > The availability and popularity of coffee grew rapidly after the Restoration, > courtesy of the East India Company. But it would originally have been for > the well-to-do classes. > > I hope that helps. > > Cheers, > > Liz in Melbourne > > Quoting Byron Pershouse <byro@tpg.com.au>: > > > Hello all > > I have obtained an inventory compiled in 1607 which contains some items > > about which I hope someone will be able to to provide some information > > > > Item 1 four iron candlesticks, five seggni chairs, one cheese toaster, > > one iron shoe and dozen of iron stands > > > > Item 2 One bacon rack, one dresser with drawers, two tables, two tin > > coffe pots and wax candle box > > > > In Item 1. What is a seggni chair? > > In Item 2. Was "coffee" a common beverage in 1607 or could the > > transcription be incorrect? > > > > > > Regards > > Byron > > Bundaberg, Australia > > > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > > OLD-ENGLISH Web Page > > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > > > > > > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > OLD-ENGLISH Web Page > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.693 / Virus Database: 454 - Release Date: 01-06-2004

Dear Byron I would think there is a case here for putting the inventory on the Old English site for us all to have a look at. You could have a word with Judith (list owner) about it. It will save any guessing although I expect there are some out there who will have very good ideas about these words. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Byron Pershouse" <byro@tpg.com.au> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 7:03 AM Subject: [OEL] Words in inventory > Hello all > I have obtained an inventory compiled in 1607 which contains some items > about which I hope someone will be able to to provide some information > > Item 1 four iron candlesticks, five seggni chairs, one cheese toaster, > one iron shoe and dozen of iron stands > > Item 2 One bacon rack, one dresser with drawers, two tables, two tin > coffe pots and wax candle box > > In Item 1. What is a seggni chair? > In Item 2. Was "coffee" a common beverage in 1607 or could the > transcription be incorrect? > > > Regards > Byron > Bundaberg, Australia > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > OLD-ENGLISH Web Page > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > >

I still dont understand the "Rank in Army" bit. Why should that be recorded in an ordinary ship's passenger list? Could RIA be a regimental abbreviation? SANDRA LOVEGROVE Researching LOVEGROVEs in all places and at all times. Please do visit the LOVEGROVE Information Centre on http://www.lovegrove.org.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "norman.lee1" <norman.lee1@virgin.net> To: "Sandra Lovegrove" <sandra@lovegrove.org.uk>; <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: 31 May 2004 07:06 Subject: Re: [OEL] military matters > Another thought. > Leading Quarter Master Joseph Blogs RIA [Rank in Army] - the Rank in Army > bit being because there's a similar rank in the navy and, being on board > ship, his status could have been confused on the passenger list? > > Audrey > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Sandra Lovegrove" <sandra@lovegrove.org.uk> > To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2004 7:05 PM > Subject: Re: [OEL] military matters > > > > > In the Army Lists, RIA stands for Rank in Army (as opposed to Rank in > > > Regiment). > > > > Thanks, but what does that mean? I'm still in the dark! > > > > SANDRA LOVEGROVE > > > > Researching LOVEGROVEs in all places and at all times. > > Please do visit the LOVEGROVE Information Centre on > http://www.lovegrove.org.uk > > > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > > OLD-ENGLISH Web Page > > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > > > > > >

On LQM The letter before the QM does not normally refer to rank but rather (as Eve suggested) indicates army sub-division level for which the person is Quarter Master, e.g. Regimental, Squadron, Company. Could this one be a badly written C for Company. I cannot, at present, think of a relevant 'L' sub-division having a QM. Further thought leads me to doubt the 'Rank in Army" interpretation of RIA in this case. That a person is, for instance, designated RQM shows only the office or position held and does not indicate the rank of the holder. (Although the holder's rank would normally be within a fairly restricted range.) If there had been letters after the 'M' then rank could have been indicated. E.g. CQMSM - Company Quarter Master Sergeant Major. Bob

LQM I think Roy is probably right in Lieutentant & Quarter Master although in WW1 this was abbreviated as QM & Lieut. http://www.documentsonline.pro.gov.uk/help/Abbreviations-rank.asp#QQ Charles -----Original Message----- From: R. J. Kane [mailto:rjkane@paradise.net.nz] Sent: 31 May 2004 10:31 To: OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [OEL] military matters On LQM The letter before the QM does not normally refer to rank but rather (as Eve suggested) indicates army sub-division level for which the person is Quarter Master, e.g. Regimental, Squadron, Company. Could this one be a badly written C for Company. I cannot, at present, think of a relevant 'L' sub-division having a QM. Further thought leads me to doubt the 'Rank in Army" interpretation of RIA in this case. That a person is, for instance, designated RQM shows only the office or position held and does not indicate the rank of the holder. (Although the holder's rank would normally be within a fairly restricted range.) If there had been letters after the 'M' then rank could have been indicated. E.g. CQMSM - Company Quarter Master Sergeant Major. Bob ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== OLD-ENGLISH Web Page http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/

I would have thought that R.I.A. would have stood for Royal Indian Artillery given that this was a ship going to London from Bombay Charles -----Original Message----- From: Roy [mailto:roy.cox@btinternet.com] Sent: 30 May 2004 17:17 To: OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com Subject: RE: [OEL] military matters Good Evening Sandra - LQM is probable Lieutenant Quarter Master whilst RIA could be Royal Irish Academy? Minimum ages in those days I don't think were a consideration, powder monkeys were usually young boys and in the army they were usually drummers or runners. I may well be wrong and there may well have been a minimum age, some were taken on board as mascots whilst many were orphans and runaways who expanded their ages a bit anyway! Kind Regards June & Roy (SANHS Member No 1066) http://www.btinternet.com/~roy.cox/index.htm -----Original Message----- From: Sandra Lovegrove [mailto:sandra@lovegrove.org.uk] Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2004 2:19 AM To: OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [OEL] military matters This is not very old English, but it is a puzzle, so : does anyone have a clue as to what military rank/occupation might have been signified in 1900 by the abbreviation L.Q.M. (in a ship's passenger list Bombay-London)? Also, any idea what RIA might stand for (after the surname)? Also (a little older) does anyone know if soldiers had to be a minimum age for recruitment in 1841?(Marine private aged 15 found in Chatham Barracks) SANDRA LOVEGROVE Researching LOVEGROVEs in all places and at all times. Please do visit the LOVEGROVE Information Centre on http://www.lovegrove.org.uk ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== THREADED archives for OLD-ENGLISH: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== SEARCHABLE archives for OLD-ENGLISH: http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=OLD-ENGLISH

Another thought. Leading Quarter Master Joseph Blogs RIA [Rank in Army] - the Rank in Army bit being because there's a similar rank in the navy and, being on board ship, his status could have been confused on the passenger list? Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sandra Lovegrove" <sandra@lovegrove.org.uk> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2004 7:05 PM Subject: Re: [OEL] military matters > > In the Army Lists, RIA stands for Rank in Army (as opposed to Rank in > > Regiment). > > Thanks, but what does that mean? I'm still in the dark! > > SANDRA LOVEGROVE > > Researching LOVEGROVEs in all places and at all times. > Please do visit the LOVEGROVE Information Centre on http://www.lovegrove.org.uk > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > OLD-ENGLISH Web Page > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > >

In message <0f4401c4463b$f3e36f80$a0cbae51@lovegrove>, Sandra Lovegrove <sandra@lovegrove.org.uk> writes >This is not very old English, but it is a puzzle, so : does anyone have a clue >as to what military rank/occupation might have been signified in 1900 by the >abbreviation L.Q.M. (in a ship's passenger list Bombay-London)? Something Quarter Master, but can't be lance, Could see R for regimaental, or A for Assistant, or B for Battalion perhaps >Also (a little older) does anyone know if soldiers had to be a minimum age for >recruitment in 1841?(Marine private aged 15 found in Chatham Barracks) boy recruitment was common enough - especially for sons of existing soldiers etc. Drummer boys at 10-11, for instance. Wasn't there a tragedy 20-30 years ago, when boy soldiers from a marine barracks in Kent were murdered by terrorists? -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

In a message dated 5/30/2004 2:42:21 PM Pacific Standard Time, eve@varneys.demon.co.uk writes: This is not very old English, but it is a puzzle, so : does anyone have a clue >as to what military rank/occupation might have been signified in 1900 by the >abbreviation L.Q.M. (in a ship's passenger list Bombay-London)? Something Quarter Master, but can't be lance, Could see R for regimaental, or A for Assistant, or B for Battalion perhaps Possibly Leftenant/Lieutenant. James E. Hargraves

> In the Army Lists, RIA stands for Rank in Army (as opposed to Rank in > Regiment). Thanks, but what does that mean? I'm still in the dark! SANDRA LOVEGROVE Researching LOVEGROVEs in all places and at all times. Please do visit the LOVEGROVE Information Centre on http://www.lovegrove.org.uk

In the Army Lists, RIA stands for Rank in Army (as opposed to Rank in Regiment). Wendy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sandra Lovegrove" <sandra@lovegrove.org.uk> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2004 2:19 AM Subject: [OEL] military matters > This is not very old English, but it is a puzzle, so : does anyone have a clue > as to what military rank/occupation might have been signified in 1900 by the > abbreviation L.Q.M. (in a ship's passenger list Bombay-London)? Also, any idea > what RIA might stand for (after the surname)? > > Also (a little older) does anyone know if soldiers had to be a minimum age for > recruitment in 1841?(Marine private aged 15 found in Chatham Barracks) > > SANDRA LOVEGROVE > > Researching LOVEGROVEs in all places and at all times. > Please do visit the LOVEGROVE Information Centre on http://www.lovegrove.org.uk > > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > THREADED archives for OLD-ENGLISH: > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH >

Good Evening Sandra - LQM is probable Lieutenant Quarter Master whilst RIA could be Royal Irish Academy? Minimum ages in those days I don't think were a consideration, powder monkeys were usually young boys and in the army they were usually drummers or runners. I may well be wrong and there may well have been a minimum age, some were taken on board as mascots whilst many were orphans and runaways who expanded their ages a bit anyway! Kind Regards June & Roy (SANHS Member No 1066) http://www.btinternet.com/~roy.cox/index.htm -----Original Message----- From: Sandra Lovegrove [mailto:sandra@lovegrove.org.uk] Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2004 2:19 AM To: OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [OEL] military matters This is not very old English, but it is a puzzle, so : does anyone have a clue as to what military rank/occupation might have been signified in 1900 by the abbreviation L.Q.M. (in a ship's passenger list Bombay-London)? Also, any idea what RIA might stand for (after the surname)? Also (a little older) does anyone know if soldiers had to be a minimum age for recruitment in 1841?(Marine private aged 15 found in Chatham Barracks) SANDRA LOVEGROVE Researching LOVEGROVEs in all places and at all times. Please do visit the LOVEGROVE Information Centre on http://www.lovegrove.org.uk ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== THREADED archives for OLD-ENGLISH: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH

> I have forgotten quite what period we are talking about but Mr was the mark > of a gentleman. In the sixteenth and early seventeenth centuries you tend to > see it only being used with reference to landed gentry (at least in the > rural areas, not so sure about towns) but the post restoration period you > get an increase in attorneys and surveyors and superior traders and the like > using it as well. > Lyn B > I am old enough to remember when the names in English (only!) cricket teams were recorded as "Mr [initials + surname]" for each gentlemen and [initials + surname] for each "player". Newspaper reports omitted the initials. "Smith shared an entertaining partnership of 54 with Mr Jones..." Gordon Barlow

This is not very old English, but it is a puzzle, so : does anyone have a clue as to what military rank/occupation might have been signified in 1900 by the abbreviation L.Q.M. (in a ship's passenger list Bombay-London)? Also, any idea what RIA might stand for (after the surname)? Also (a little older) does anyone know if soldiers had to be a minimum age for recruitment in 1841?(Marine private aged 15 found in Chatham Barracks) SANDRA LOVEGROVE Researching LOVEGROVEs in all places and at all times. Please do visit the LOVEGROVE Information Centre on http://www.lovegrove.org.uk

Julia, one possibility was use in a still room, making lotions and potions, Lyn B

Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French & Medieval Latin; Middle French alambic & Medieval Latin alembicum, from Arabic al-anbIq, from al the + anbIq still, from Late Greek ambik-, ambix alembic, from Greek, cap of a still Date: 14th century 1 : an apparatus used in distillation 2 : something that refines or transmutes as if by distillation <philosophy " &" filtered through the alembic of Plato's mind —B. T. Shropshire> [alembic illustration]

Ray > but I don't know if they were involved in the running of it. The family > were fustian weavers and manufacturers and Miriam also bequeathed her > callendar house. To calender something is to run it between two rollers in order to give the material a smooth surface. I've only ever come across it before in papermaking, but a quick search of Google reveals it was used in clothmaking as well. Chris

Good Afternoon Julia - An Alembic/Alembick is an olde distilling apparatus, comes from Arabic and Greek sources. A Callendar may be a variation of "Calandria" which is sealed vessel through which tubes pass. Hope this helps Kind Regards June & Roy (SANHS Member No 1066) http://www.btinternet.com/~roy.cox/index.htm -----Original Message----- From: Julia Hunt [mailto:julia.hunt@ntlworld.com] Sent: Saturday, May 29, 2004 2:49 PM To: OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [OEL] Alembick In the 1747 PCC will of Miriam WITTS, widow, of Aldbourne, Wilts., she made the following bequest: "Item I do give and bequeath unto my said daughter Joan Smith my alembick and my Riding Hood" In my Concise Oxford Dictionary I have found the following entry for "alembic" 1. hist., an apparatus formerly used in distilling 2. a means of refining of extracting The WITTS family lived next door to the George Inn on the Green in Aldbourne but I don't know if they were involved in the running of it. The family were fustian weavers and manufacturers and Miriam also bequeathed her callendar house. Would anyone have any idea what kind of apparatus an alembic was and how it was used? Was it used for distilling drink or for something used in the callendaring process? Julia Hunt --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.690 / Virus Database: 451 - Release Date: 22/05/2004 ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== THREADED archives for OLD-ENGLISH: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH