At 23:08 16-06-04 +1200, you wrote: >Hello all > >I am transcribing a long 1609 will of Alice Startup <snip> >I am also curious about the quality of what was called "canvas" >at the time Quite a number of items are described as being >canvas including canvas sheets and a couple of canvas towels. >The only canvas I know is a very heavy material used for outdoor >awnings and tents. Was the material talked about the will a much >finer fabric. > >regards >Chris Bartlett > >Hello Chris, The following notes from history notes in a magazine produced by a big chemical company (I think it was "Bayer Farben Review", but not positive) Unbleached canvas was used predominantly for sheeting, made by spinning and weaving the very finest flax or hemp. The owner could slowly bleach the material by hanging the sheets on the line on frosty nights and I can remember my mother buying unbleached calico sheets in the 1930s, and it taking about three years of the usual washing on changing the bed weekly to produce white sheets. Though cheaper to buy, they were also much stronger (and warmer) than the chemically bleached item and lasted years longer. Now, history: Until about 1775 (when chlorine became a bleach) lawn bleaching was the only known method for bleaching cotton and linen (flax & hemp). Hundreds of acres of land were always covered with fabrics and yarns in this tedious and time-wasting process. When chemical bleaching released large areas of land for agriculture, everybody agreed that this was one of the great benefits which the world reaped from chemistry. Those who coloured this material (the dyers) were delighted because (as one of them said in 1773) "The fabrics bleached on different lawns eventually assume a widely different appearance, even if they are equally fine. No two batches look alike, not even in colour." In early spring the material was laid out in the open for bleaching and remained there until it was sent back in autumn for further processing - sometimes not until the following year if the weather had been bad. A lot of fabrics were sent to Holland for bleaching, which explains the origin of the English word "hollands" for high grade linen. Hope that's of OEL interest. regards, Ada Ackerly, Melbourne, Australia formerly Ackerly DocuSearch

Hi Chris I expect someone else has replied to you by now but here's what I think. holilayes and variations of it may be hollandaise. I'm not absolutely sure about this without looking it up but I think it's fine linen. On the other hand, what Paul and Liz say sounds another good possibility. Agree with Paul that the word is a version of kerchief, i.e. a little triangular piece of cloth knotted around the throat. I think partlets were the cotton tabs, also worn around the neck but resting on the upper chest - see portraits of the time. My description in words does not convey what I have in mind's eye. Canvas was, I believe, a coarse unbleached cloth of hemp or flax at that date but I shall, no doubt, have to be corrected on this. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Bartlett" <woodcom@ihug.co.nz> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2004 12:08 PM Subject: [OEL] recurring words in 1609 will > > Hello all > > I am transcribing a long 1609 will of Alice Startup alias > Bartlett who leaves a long list of clothes to various > people and have two recurring words that seem to describe > the garment. The writing though quite small is relatively > good and most words are quite easy to read > > The first seems to apply mostly to Partletts where several > are described as a "holilayes" or "holilazes" or "holidayes" > partlett. > > The other item also seems to be an item of clothing and is > spelt a couple of ways but seems to be "carcheife" or "carc_eise" > > In one line this is put into context as > "one paire of bought cloth stockings two holilayes carcheifes > & one holilayes partlett and my new blanket" > > I am also curious about the quality of what was called "canvas" > at the time Quite a number of items are described as being > canvas including canvas sheets and a couple of canvas towels. > The only canvas I know is a very heavy material used for outdoor > awnings and tents. Was the material talked about the will a much > finer fabric. > > regards > Chris Bartlett > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > OLD-ENGLISH Web Page > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > >

Hi Chris, A partlet was a an article of apparel worn about the neck and upper part of the chest, chiefly by women: orig. a neckerchief of linen or the like; a collar or ruff; also, a kind of habit-shirt. [OED] Canvas was also used for clothing - strong or coarse unbleached cloth made of hemp or flax. Perhaps not quite so coarse as sailcloth, more like coarse linen? I agree with Paul and Lyn on holidays and kerchief. Cheers, Liz Quoting Chris Bartlett <woodcom@ihug.co.nz>: > > Hello all > > I am transcribing a long 1609 will of Alice Startup alias > Bartlett who leaves a long list of clothes to various > people and have two recurring words that seem to describe > the garment. The writing though quite small is relatively > good and most words are quite easy to read > > The first seems to apply mostly to Partletts where several > are described as a "holilayes" or "holilazes" or "holidayes" > partlett. > > The other item also seems to be an item of clothing and is > spelt a couple of ways but seems to be "carcheife" or "carc_eise" > > In one line this is put into context as > "one paire of bought cloth stockings two holilayes carcheifes > & one holilayes partlett and my new blanket" > > I am also curious about the quality of what was called "canvas" > at the time Quite a number of items are described as being > canvas including canvas sheets and a couple of canvas towels. > The only canvas I know is a very heavy material used for outdoor > awnings and tents. Was the material talked about the will a much > finer fabric. > > regards > Chris Bartlett

Sorry, this is all I could find: We know there was a Saxon settlement at Hamsey in AD925 and it is recorded in the Domesday Book of 1086. A manorial hall was built in 1321 to the east of Hamsey Church. Lords of the manor have included the families of de Cheyney, de Say, de Clinton, Willoughby, Dudley, Lewknor, Alford, Wenham, Partington and Monk Bretton. Lords of the manor of Coombe, (Offham), include the families of de Say, Radmelde, Comber, Pelland, Scrase, River, Bridger and Shiffner. Not a clue to the meaning of the name but one can imagine a local saying such as "God's grace" being abbreviated to "'s Grace." So we almost agree this time, eh Gordon? Gary Radcliffe

Hello all I am transcribing a long 1609 will of Alice Startup alias Bartlett who leaves a long list of clothes to various people and have two recurring words that seem to describe the garment. The writing though quite small is relatively good and most words are quite easy to read The first seems to apply mostly to Partletts where several are described as a "holilayes" or "holilazes" or "holidayes" partlett. The other item also seems to be an item of clothing and is spelt a couple of ways but seems to be "carcheife" or "carc_eise" In one line this is put into context as "one paire of bought cloth stockings two holilayes carcheifes & one holilayes partlett and my new blanket" I am also curious about the quality of what was called "canvas" at the time Quite a number of items are described as being canvas including canvas sheets and a couple of canvas towels. The only canvas I know is a very heavy material used for outdoor awnings and tents. Was the material talked about the will a much finer fabric. regards Chris Bartlett

Paul, just what I was going to say, kerchief and holiday, Lyn B

Gary and I have disagreed on the "meanings" of surnames before - BUT I think the beginning S- is simply a dialectal idiosyncrasy, and the most common modern version of the name is GRACE. Gordon Barlow > SCRASE - According to my only source that mentions the name, the origin > meaning > is totally unknown. It was used as a surname as far back as the 13th > century. > > Gary Radcliffe - (with a little help from an expert) >

Chris: it's only possible to guess without seeing the text, but could "carcheife" be a kerchief, ie handkerchief? And could "holidayes" items be ones for holy days, ie Sunday best? Best wishes Paul Prescott ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Bartlett" <woodcom@ihug.co.nz> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2004 12:08 PM Subject: [OEL] recurring words in 1609 will > > Hello all > > I am transcribing a long 1609 will of Alice Startup alias > Bartlett who leaves a long list of clothes to various > people and have two recurring words that seem to describe > the garment. The writing though quite small is relatively > good and most words are quite easy to read > > The first seems to apply mostly to Partletts where several > are described as a "holilayes" or "holilazes" or "holidayes" > partlett. > > The other item also seems to be an item of clothing and is > spelt a couple of ways but seems to be "carcheife" or "carc_eise" > > In one line this is put into context as > "one paire of bought cloth stockings two holilayes carcheifes > & one holilayes partlett and my new blanket" > > I am also curious about the quality of what was called "canvas" > at the time Quite a number of items are described as being > canvas including canvas sheets and a couple of canvas towels. > The only canvas I know is a very heavy material used for outdoor > awnings and tents. Was the material talked about the will a much > finer fabric. > > regards > Chris Bartlett > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > OLD-ENGLISH Web Page > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.693 / Virus Database: 454 - Release Date: 31-05-2004

In message <6.1.1.1.0.20040613194134.01b18b30@pop.bloor.phub.net.cable.r ogers.com>, Vivien Martin <vivien@nitram.ca> writes >Hi all >I need some help please with Latin translation for a passage taken from >"Retours of Services for Heirs". My only Latin I remember from singing in >church and 10th grade Latin which I failed. I need all the help you can give. > >"Magister, Ludovicus Grant de Dalvey, heres masculus Domini Jacobi Grant de >Dalvey, militis baroniti, fratris germani - interris de Dalvey >comprehendentibus Maines de Dalvay et maneriei locum ejusdum; villas et >terras de Knockandorne, Kairnglass, Sheniwell, 2 Altevinas, Aird, Ailen, >Shennach, Achieniaeranach, Achamone; villa et terris de Milnetone de >Dalvey, com monendino de Dalvey et terris monendinariis; salmonum aliisque, >piscationibus stipra aquam de Spey ad easdem terras spectantibus infra >baronium de Strathspey et regulitatem de Spynie > >My attempt as follows: >.Master Ludovic Grant -[or Ludovic Grant, Master of Dalvey,] heir male of Sir James Grant of Dalvey, Knight and baronet, his full brother (=both parents same) [heir] in the lands of Dalvey including the >Maines of Dalvey and the place [big house] of the same manor, the towns and lands of >Knockandorne, Kairnglass, Sheniwell, Aird, Ailen, Shennach, >Achieniaeranach, Achamone; the house and land of Milnetown of Dalvey, with >eels [?if really molendino, mill] of Dalvey and the [mill] land......, salmon.and other fisheries [stipra probably supra=above] the water >of Spey to the same lands that can be seen below the barony of Strathspey and the lordship of Spynie. -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

SCRASE - According to my only source that mentions the name, the origin meaning is totally unknown. It was used as a surname as far back as the 13th century. Gary Radcliffe - (with a little help from an expert)

Hi all I need some help please with Latin translation for a passage taken from "Retours of Services for Heirs". My only Latin I remember from singing in church and 10th grade Latin which I failed. I need all the help you can give. "Magister, Ludovicus Grant de Dalvey, heres masculus Domini Jacobi Grant de Dalvey, militis baroniti, fratris germani - interris de Dalvey comprehendentibus Maines de Dalvay et maneriei locum ejusdum; villas et terras de Knockandorne, Kairnglass, Sheniwell, 2 Altevinas, Aird, Ailen, Shennach, Achieniaeranach, Achamone; villa et terris de Milnetone de Dalvey, com monendino de Dalvey et terris monendinariis; salmonum aliisque, piscationibus stipra aquam de Spey ad easdem terras spectantibus infra baronium de Strathspey et regulitatem de Spynie My attempt as follows: ...... Ludovic Grant of Dalvey, male heir of Lord Jacob (John) Grant of Dalvey, Knight Baronet, brother....., - ....... of Dalvey including the Maines of Dalvey and the local maner......, house and lands of Knockandorne, Kairnglass, Sheniwell, .........., Aird, Ailen, Shennach, Achieniaeranach, Achamone; the house and land of Milnetown of Dalvey, with eels of Dalvey and the land ......, salmon.........., fish..........waters of the Spey to ..........land ............... between the Baron of Strathspey and the............. of Spynie. Help! Please! Cheers Vivien

In message <008801c44f9d$28791460$5acdfc3e@oemcomputer>, "norman.lee1" <norman.lee1@virgin.net> writes >Think it's probably Joyday, a sort of non-conformist christian name of the >17th century. Loveday i have met, but not Joyday. -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

In message <40C93A4B.4E2819CC@sun.com>, Jenny Joyce <Jenny.Joyce@Sun.COM> writes >Hi everyone, > >We are looking at a will dated 1592. In it one of the people mention is >either Iedy, Jedy or Jody. The person who wrote it forms his I's the >same way he forms his J's. > >If it is Iedy, could this be a pet name for Edith? Well, Edy and Edye are regular and Judy for Judith is possible is the vowel is in doubt. Jody is a modern invention. Is it definitely a female though? If nopt, then Toby must be a starter, because in some handwritings, the b can look like a d in others. -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

Jenny It's not that the writer forms his Is the same way as his Js - at the time they were basically the same letter so you wouldn't think of writing them differently. The same thing is true for u and v. This makes it virtually impossible to know how some names were pronounced, Jue and Ive for example look exactly the same when written in secretary hand. I've only ever seen Eedy written thus or Edy, but anything's possible. Jody seems more likely but it's only a guess. Lyn

Hi everyone, We are looking at a will dated 1592. In it one of the people mention is either Iedy, Jedy or Jody. The person who wrote it forms his I's the same way he forms his J's. If it is Iedy, could this be a pet name for Edith? Do either of the other names appear at that date? Regards Jenny

Thanks to everyone who replied with help on this Jenny Paul Prescott wrote: > > James / Jenny: > > The letters that look like "Xp" are not our letters "X" and "p" but the > Greek letters chi and rho. These are the first two letters of the word > "Christ" in Greek, so "Xp" is often found in early manuscripts as an > abbreviation for Christ, usually as part of a longer word - eg Christian, > Christiana, Christopher, etc which would be written Xpian, Xpiana, Xpopher, > etc. > > Best wishes > > Paul Prescott > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <JEH7698@aol.com> > To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 2:43 AM > Subject: Re: [OEL] Help with name > > > > > In a message dated 6/9/2004 6:21:19 PM Pacific Standard Time, > > Jenny.Joyce@sun.com writes: > > > > Hi everyone, > > > > I'm trying to transcribe a will and am stuck with a name. It is a > > daughter, and it appears to be "xpan". I have a scan of the section of > > the will if needed (if so, where do I send it to? > > > > Regards > > Jenny > > > > > > > > Hi Jenny, > > > > "X" usually stands for Christ, as in Christopher, so it might be > Christian, > > which was used for both male and female years ago in England as well as in > > Colonial America. > > > > Sincerely, > > James E. Hargraves > > > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > > SEARCHABLE archives for OLD-ENGLISH: > > http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=OLD-ENGLISH > > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.693 / Virus Database: 454 - Release Date: 01-06-2004 > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > OLD-ENGLISH Web Page > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/

Think it's probably Joyday, a sort of non-conformist christian name of the 17th century. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jenny Joyce" <Jenny.Joyce@Sun.COM> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 5:51 AM Subject: [OEL] Iedy, Jedy or Jody > Hi everyone, > > We are looking at a will dated 1592. In it one of the people mention is > either Iedy, Jedy or Jody. The person who wrote it forms his I's the > same way he forms his J's. > > If it is Iedy, could this be a pet name for Edith? Do either of the > other names appear at that date? > > Regards > Jenny > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > OLD-ENGLISH Web Page > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > >

Hello Sandra About Christian. I have a lady who was known both as Christian and Christiana so clearly not everyone called her Christian. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sandra Lovegrove" <sandra@lovegrove.org.uk> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 10:21 AM Subject: [OEL] Re: Help with name > Very likely to be "Christian", which we have picked up as a female name > (in southwest Berkshire) from the 16th century early to as late as 1816. > > SANDRA LOVEGROVE > > Researching LOVEGROVEs in all places and at all times. > Please do visit the LOVEGROVE Information Centre on > http://www.lovegrove.org.uk > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jenny Joyce" <Jenny.Joyce@Sun.COM> > To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: 10 June 2004 02:21 > Subject: Help with name > > > > Hi everyone, > > > > I'm trying to transcribe a will and am stuck with a name. It is a > > daughter, and it appears to be "xpan". I have a scan of the section > of > > the will if needed (if so, where do I send it to? > > > > Regards > > Jenny > > > > ______________________________ > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > THREADED archives for OLD-ENGLISH: > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > >

In a message dated 6/10/2004 9:51:11 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Jenny.Joyce@sun.com writes: > We are looking at a will dated 1592. In it one of the people mention is > either Iedy, Jedy or Jody. The person who wrote it forms his I's the > same way he forms his J's. I've seen the spelling Jeddy interchangable with Judy Will

Hello Jenny It is probably xpian which I think is equivalent to christian. regards Chris Bartlett > -----Original Message----- > From: Jenny.Joyce@Sun.COM [mailto:Jenny.Joyce@Sun.COM] > Sent: Thursday, 10 June 2004 1:21 p.m. > To: OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: [OEL] Help with name > > > Hi everyone, > > I'm trying to transcribe a will and am stuck with a name. It is a > daughter, and it appears to be "xpan". I have a scan of the section of > the will if needed (if so, where do I send it to? > > Regards > Jenny > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > OLD-ENGLISH Web Page > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > > >