You've probably tried Sarandon? Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Robb" <kwrobb@ispnz.co.nz> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 7:09 AM Subject: [OEL] Alternative names > Hi from wintry New Zealand, > I do please need some help with a surname in one of the descendants marriages in 1822 in Woodhurst, Huntingdonshire. > The Grooms name is on the microfiche as Sarranton, there is no one of that name on the Hunts 1841 census, and trying the IGI no surname same as that same in England. > Have tried to think of alternative phonetic spellings but have run out of ideas, can anyone suggest alternatives please. > Jan Robb....N.Z. > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > OLD-ENGLISH Web Page > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > >
Good Morning - SARRANTON: PH Reaney's Dictionary of British Surnames does not list this variation but it does list several variations of SARGENT and then several of SARGEANTSON which includes a close match of SARJANTSON (There are others) Try it with an Irish accent? Earliest origin is 1379 Yorkshire Poll Tax Returns with WILLIAM SERGANTSON which implies "Son of Sergant" Kind Regards June & Roy (SANHS Member No 1066) http://www.btinternet.com/~roy.cox/index.htm -----Original Message----- From: Ken Robb [mailto:kwrobb@ispnz.co.nz] Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 7:10 AM To: OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [OEL] Alternative names Hi from wintry New Zealand, I do please need some help with a surname in one of the descendants marriages in 1822 in Woodhurst, Huntingdonshire. The Grooms name is on the microfiche as Sarranton, there is no one of that name on the Hunts 1841 census, and trying the IGI no surname same as that same in England. Have tried to think of alternative phonetic spellings but have run out of ideas, can anyone suggest alternatives please. Jan Robb....N.Z. ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== OLD-ENGLISH Web Page http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/
In a message dated 28/06/04 07:00:18 GMT Daylight Time, kwrobb@ispnz.co.nz writes: I do please need some help with a surname in one of the descendants marriages in 1822 in Woodhurst, Huntingdonshire. The Grooms name is on the microfiche as Sarranton, there is no one of that name on the Hunts 1841 census, and trying the IGI no surname same as that same in England. Have tried to think of alternative phonetic spellings but have run out of ideas, can anyone suggest alternatives please. Jan Robb....N.Z. Jan There is a surname YARRANTON, for which I have a large database. These were a Worcestershire family primarily, though they spread widely from the 16C (including Virginia in 1608 with Captain Smith of Pocahontas fame!). I am also in contact with several people researching this name. If you think this could be your name I may be able to help. Pete Brown Groby, Leicestershire
Would love to have seen it but, alas, I'm in the states. Perhaps it will pop up on cable here too. - Denne meldingen er sjekket for virus av Norton Anti-virus - This message was checked for virus by Norton Anti-virus ----- Original Message ----- From: "norman.lee1" <norman.lee1@virgin.net> To: "1carla" <cbodette@wi.rr.com>; <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, June 26, 2004 2:08 PM Subject: Re: [OEL] Days in Roman characters > There's a very good programme on the alphabet on Radio 4 (BBC). I've only > caught one of them but found it very informative and interesting. > > Regarding different forms of i, there were different forms of various > letters in the secretary hand depending upon where the letter was in the > word, either at the beginning, the end or in the middle or whether it > incorporated an abbreviation. Some of this was carried over from medieval > Latin but Anglicised and the letter J was a late addition to the English > alphabet, with I being used where today we would use J. Lower case letters > also came later than upper case, although it this development occurred > before the middle ages. > > Audrey > > > Audrey > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "1carla" <cbodette@wi.rr.com> > To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Friday, June 25, 2004 1:33 AM > Subject: Re: [OEL] Days in Roman characters > > > > maybe > > > > IULIUS CAESAR > > > > > > - Denne meldingen er sjekket for virus av Norton Anti-virus > > - This message was checked for virus by Norton Anti-virus > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Polly Rubery" <polly@rowberry.org> > > To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 11:50 AM > > Subject: Re: [OEL] Days in Roman characters > > > > > > > Hi Alejandro > > > > > > >>in Roman characters, such as "... the xviij October", or > > > "the xxvijth day of January". I assume that the use of the "j" is just a > > > convention<< > > > > > > Yes it was a convention to write the last i in a figure as a j to > prevent > > > someone adding in another one or two - that could have made a lot of > > > difference when it was money, so rather like the line we use to fill in > > any > > > blank space on our cheques today. > > > > > > And of course in the roman alphabet they were just different ways of > > writing > > > the same letter, so that an inscription to Julius Ceaser would be > written > > > IULIUS CEASER! > > > HTH > > > Polly > > > > > > Polly Rubery > > > List owner: MIDMARCH-L@rootsweb.com > > > A genealogy and local history list covering the Counties of Brecon, > > > Hereford, Monmouth, Shropshire, Stafford and Worcester > > > ENG-HEREFORD-L@rootsweb.com > > > ROWBERRY-L@rootsweb.com > > > Acting List owner: Bristol_and_Somerset-L@rootsweb.com > > > ROWBERRY/RUBERY ONS - GOONS #278 > > > rowberry@one-name.org > > > http://www.rowberry.org > > > Webmaster for the Herefordshire Family History Society > > > http://www.rootsweb.com/~ukhfhs/index.html > > > > > > Kind regards > > > > > > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > > > To UNSUBSCRIBE from list mode -- > > > Send the one word UNSUBSCRIBE to > > > OLD-ENGLISH-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > > OLD-ENGLISH Web Page > > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > > > > > >
There's a very good programme on the alphabet on Radio 4 (BBC). I've only caught one of them but found it very informative and interesting. Regarding different forms of i, there were different forms of various letters in the secretary hand depending upon where the letter was in the word, either at the beginning, the end or in the middle or whether it incorporated an abbreviation. Some of this was carried over from medieval Latin but Anglicised and the letter J was a late addition to the English alphabet, with I being used where today we would use J. Lower case letters also came later than upper case, although it this development occurred before the middle ages. Audrey Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "1carla" <cbodette@wi.rr.com> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, June 25, 2004 1:33 AM Subject: Re: [OEL] Days in Roman characters > maybe > > IULIUS CAESAR > > > - Denne meldingen er sjekket for virus av Norton Anti-virus > - This message was checked for virus by Norton Anti-virus > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Polly Rubery" <polly@rowberry.org> > To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 11:50 AM > Subject: Re: [OEL] Days in Roman characters > > > > Hi Alejandro > > > > >>in Roman characters, such as "... the xviij October", or > > "the xxvijth day of January". I assume that the use of the "j" is just a > > convention<< > > > > Yes it was a convention to write the last i in a figure as a j to prevent > > someone adding in another one or two - that could have made a lot of > > difference when it was money, so rather like the line we use to fill in > any > > blank space on our cheques today. > > > > And of course in the roman alphabet they were just different ways of > writing > > the same letter, so that an inscription to Julius Ceaser would be written > > IULIUS CEASER! > > HTH > > Polly > > > > Polly Rubery > > List owner: MIDMARCH-L@rootsweb.com > > A genealogy and local history list covering the Counties of Brecon, > > Hereford, Monmouth, Shropshire, Stafford and Worcester > > ENG-HEREFORD-L@rootsweb.com > > ROWBERRY-L@rootsweb.com > > Acting List owner: Bristol_and_Somerset-L@rootsweb.com > > ROWBERRY/RUBERY ONS - GOONS #278 > > rowberry@one-name.org > > http://www.rowberry.org > > Webmaster for the Herefordshire Family History Society > > http://www.rootsweb.com/~ukhfhs/index.html > > > > Kind regards > > > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > > To UNSUBSCRIBE from list mode -- > > Send the one word UNSUBSCRIBE to > > OLD-ENGLISH-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > OLD-ENGLISH Web Page > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > >
Is my face red! Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Donald Tomkinson" <don.tomkinson@lineone.net> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 4:32 PM Subject: Re: [OEL] pillow Boa_s / bers and whome made > In Cheshire - "I'm goin' wom." > > Don Tomkinson > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "norman.lee1" <norman.lee1@virgin.net> > To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, June 21, 2004 5:59 PM > Subject: Re: [OEL] pillow Boa_s / bers and whome made > > > > These are pillow bears which can be spelled in so many different > ways in > > documents that I've no idea of the correct way of spelling it. Yes, > they are > > pillow cases, as you suspected. As for home being spelled as whome, > this is > > dialect and the h is generally silent, e.g. I'm going whome, > pronounced I'm > > going wome. I sorry that I can't quite remember which dialect it is > but I > > feel sure that someone will tell us. > > > > Audrey > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Chris Bartlett" <woodcom@ihug.co.nz> > > To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Monday, June 21, 2004 11:30 AM > > Subject: [OEL] pillow Boa_s / bers and whome made > > > > > > > Hello all > > > > > > I can not find what the word following pillow is in the two > following > > > phrases. A capital B is used in the first word which looks like > "Boa_s" > > > and the second one seems to be "bers" Is this a cover or pillow > case? > > > > > > "lockerom apron one hat home made canvas apron one towell > > > one pillow and pillow Boa_s(or "e") and my olde bolster one payre > > > of bought cloth stockings two holidayes carcheifes & one > holidayes" > > > > > > > > > "Christyning sheete and two of my best pillow bers and two of my > > > best carchefes & two table napkins & one payre of canvas sheets > > > and one canvas towell and one smocke one lokerom apron and one" > > > > > > I am also curious as in all cases "home made" is spelt "whome > made" > > > Did home once have a silent "w" in front of it? > > > > > > regards > > > Chris Bartlett > > > > > > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > > > OLD-ENGLISH Web Page > > > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________ > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > THREADED archives for OLD-ENGLISH: > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > >
maybe IULIUS CAESAR - Denne meldingen er sjekket for virus av Norton Anti-virus - This message was checked for virus by Norton Anti-virus ----- Original Message ----- From: "Polly Rubery" <polly@rowberry.org> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 11:50 AM Subject: Re: [OEL] Days in Roman characters > Hi Alejandro > > >>in Roman characters, such as "... the xviij October", or > "the xxvijth day of January". I assume that the use of the "j" is just a > convention<< > > Yes it was a convention to write the last i in a figure as a j to prevent > someone adding in another one or two - that could have made a lot of > difference when it was money, so rather like the line we use to fill in any > blank space on our cheques today. > > And of course in the roman alphabet they were just different ways of writing > the same letter, so that an inscription to Julius Ceaser would be written > IULIUS CEASER! > HTH > Polly > > Polly Rubery > List owner: MIDMARCH-L@rootsweb.com > A genealogy and local history list covering the Counties of Brecon, > Hereford, Monmouth, Shropshire, Stafford and Worcester > ENG-HEREFORD-L@rootsweb.com > ROWBERRY-L@rootsweb.com > Acting List owner: Bristol_and_Somerset-L@rootsweb.com > ROWBERRY/RUBERY ONS - GOONS #278 > rowberry@one-name.org > http://www.rowberry.org > Webmaster for the Herefordshire Family History Society > http://www.rootsweb.com/~ukhfhs/index.html > > Kind regards > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > To UNSUBSCRIBE from list mode -- > Send the one word UNSUBSCRIBE to > OLD-ENGLISH-L-request@rootsweb.com > >
Hi Alejandro >>in Roman characters, such as "... the xviij October", or "the xxvijth day of January". I assume that the use of the "j" is just a convention<< Yes it was a convention to write the last i in a figure as a j to prevent someone adding in another one or two - that could have made a lot of difference when it was money, so rather like the line we use to fill in any blank space on our cheques today. And of course in the roman alphabet they were just different ways of writing the same letter, so that an inscription to Julius Ceaser would be written IULIUS CEASER! HTH Polly Polly Rubery List owner: MIDMARCH-L@rootsweb.com A genealogy and local history list covering the Counties of Brecon, Hereford, Monmouth, Shropshire, Stafford and Worcester ENG-HEREFORD-L@rootsweb.com ROWBERRY-L@rootsweb.com Acting List owner: Bristol_and_Somerset-L@rootsweb.com ROWBERRY/RUBERY ONS - GOONS #278 rowberry@one-name.org http://www.rowberry.org Webmaster for the Herefordshire Family History Society http://www.rootsweb.com/~ukhfhs/index.html Kind regards
Alejandro: It was normal at this time to write the last in a series of "i"s as a "j". So you're right:, the dates are 18th and 27th respectively. Best wishes Paul Prescott ----- Original Message ----- From: <AMilb36287@aol.com> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 5:07 PM Subject: [OEL] Days in Roman characters > In a transcription of an English parish register some of the entries (around > 1580) give the days in Roman characters, such as "... the xviij October", or > "the xxvijth day of January". I assume that the use of the "j" is just a > convention and the day is actually the 18th and the 27th respectively, but I would > like to confirm this. > > Thanks, > Alejandro Milberg > Boston, MA > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > OLD-ENGLISH Web Page > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.707 / Virus Database: 463 - Release Date: 15-06-2004
Alejandro, Yes you are right, Regards Martyn AMilb36287@aol.com wrote: In a transcription of an English parish register some of the entries (around 1580) give the days in Roman characters, such as "... the xviij October", or "the xxvijth day of January". I assume that the use of the "j" is just a convention and the day is actually the 18th and the 27th respectively, but I would like to confirm this. Thanks, Alejandro Milberg Boston, MA ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== OLD-ENGLISH Web Page http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/
In Cheshire - "I'm goin' wom." Don Tomkinson ----- Original Message ----- From: "norman.lee1" <norman.lee1@virgin.net> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, June 21, 2004 5:59 PM Subject: Re: [OEL] pillow Boa_s / bers and whome made > These are pillow bears which can be spelled in so many different ways in > documents that I've no idea of the correct way of spelling it. Yes, they are > pillow cases, as you suspected. As for home being spelled as whome, this is > dialect and the h is generally silent, e.g. I'm going whome, pronounced I'm > going wome. I sorry that I can't quite remember which dialect it is but I > feel sure that someone will tell us. > > Audrey > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chris Bartlett" <woodcom@ihug.co.nz> > To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, June 21, 2004 11:30 AM > Subject: [OEL] pillow Boa_s / bers and whome made > > > > Hello all > > > > I can not find what the word following pillow is in the two following > > phrases. A capital B is used in the first word which looks like "Boa_s" > > and the second one seems to be "bers" Is this a cover or pillow case? > > > > "lockerom apron one hat home made canvas apron one towell > > one pillow and pillow Boa_s(or "e") and my olde bolster one payre > > of bought cloth stockings two holidayes carcheifes & one holidayes" > > > > > > "Christyning sheete and two of my best pillow bers and two of my > > best carchefes & two table napkins & one payre of canvas sheets > > and one canvas towell and one smocke one lokerom apron and one" > > > > I am also curious as in all cases "home made" is spelt "whome made" > > Did home once have a silent "w" in front of it? > > > > regards > > Chris Bartlett > > > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > > OLD-ENGLISH Web Page > > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > > > > > > ______________________________
In Shakespeare's play Twelfth Night, Viola declares: "We men may say more, swear more, but indeed Our shows are more than will; for still we prove Much in our vows but little in our love." (see Act 2, Scene 4; readily available at http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/People/rgs/12night-table.html). It seems to me that the phrase "Our shows are more than will" may have suffered from a transcription error. Twelfth Night has been transmitted only in the First Folio (no quarto versions of this play exist). In transcribing a manuscript to print for the First Folio, "n'ore" (indicating "no more" or "not more") might easily be mistaken for "more". The former provides a much more coherent sense of the phrase within its circumstances - from the specific speech, through its context in the play, to Shakespeare's over-all themes and historical situation. For a discussion of the broader context of will, love, and persons in Twelfth Night, see Section IV.C of "Sense in Communication," available at www.galbithink.org Has anyone found in an early modern English manuscript the phrase "n'ore" as a contraction for "no more"? Thanks for any help. Douglas Galbi
In a transcription of an English parish register some of the entries (around 1580) give the days in Roman characters, such as "... the xviij October", or "the xxvijth day of January". I assume that the use of the "j" is just a convention and the day is actually the 18th and the 27th respectively, but I would like to confirm this. Thanks, Alejandro Milberg Boston, MA
Hi Gordon, The OED has the following to say about the suffix -t as in meant: -t, suffix 1, formative of the pa. pple. in some weak verbs, for earlier -d and -ed (see -ed1), due usually to the devocalization of d after a breath consonant, as in nipped, nipd, nipt. In some verbs the use of t for -ed goes back to OTeut., esp. in app. contracted or irregular verbs, as bought, brought, might, thought, wrought (Goth. bauht, brâht, maht, Þâht, waurht); in others it appears in WGer., as sought ( Goth. sôkid, OS. and OE. sôht); in others only in OE. as laught (læht), taught tæht, taht). But in the majority of cases the t is of later appearance, arising from the reduction of -ed to -d, -d in Middle or Mod. Engl., with consequent devocalization of d, not only after breath consonants, as in dropt, nipt, crept, slept, swept, left, lost, tost, past, but, in certain cases, after liquids and nasals, as in felt, spelt, spilt, dreamt, burnt, meant, pent; also in contracted formations, such as built, bent, lent, sent, spent, girt, cast. But in many words where the pronunciation has t, the current spelling is -ed, e.g. blessed, dropped, hushed, passed for blest, dropt, husht, past. So there you are - meaned and mean'd (obsolete) and meant (current) but not mean't! Cheers, Liz in Melbourne Quoting Gordon Barlow <barlow@candw.ky>: > On another List was a message that used the word " mean't " - "meant" with an apostrophe before > the "t". It occurs to me that there may have been a stage in the history of written English when > words such as "meant", "dreamt", "learnt" etc might have been written with apostrophes, since the > -t was a corruption of -ed. Has anybody encountered the phenomenon in old Wills? (For all I > know, the classical plays and poems are full of examples, but I am willing to look ignorant, just > this once!) > > Gordon Barlow > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > SEARCHABLE archives for OLD-ENGLISH: > http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=OLD-ENGLISH > >
Gordon I don't know about old wills (which is what you asked) but in many of our old letters they often have an apostrophe before the 'd' at the end of the word, and it seems pointless to me, as if you put in an apostrophe, you may as well have put in an 'e' - things like dress'd, imagin'd So I don't know if this is a regular thing, or just an idiosincrasy on the part of the letter writer. Eunice in Queensland
Gordon I don't know about old wills (which is what you asked) but in many of our old letters they often have an apostrophe before the 'd' at the end of the word, and it seems pointless to me, as if you put in an apostrophe, you may as well have put in an 'e' - things like dress'd, imagin'd So I don't know if this is a regular thing, or just an idiosincrasy on the part of the letter writer. Eunice in Queensland
> Gordon > I don't know about old wills (which is what you asked) but in many of our > old letters they often have an apostrophe before the 'd' at the end of the > word, and it seems pointless to me, as if you put in an apostrophe, you may > as well have put in an 'e' - things like dress'd, imagin'd > So I don't know if this is a regular thing, or just an idiosincrasy on the > part of the letter writer. > Eunice in Queensland > I meant to enquire about the practice of putting an apostrophe before a -t-, not before a -d-. I've always assumed that the relatively common practice of writing -'d instead of -ed reflected the writer's preference to pronounce the word as a single syllable (e.g. learnd) rather than a double syllable (learn-ed). There may be no way of proving that, though learned (two syllables, there!) opinions may exist to support the view. But I hadn't encountered any 't forms before. Here is a response from my posting to another List. "See Richard Crashaw's Hymn of the Nativity, from Metaphysical Lyrics & Poems of the 17th C., at http://www.bartleby.com/105/101.html. There you'll find not only 'mean't' and 'dream't', but also 'kis't', 'show'd', 'shew'd', and 'look't'. This suggests a) that the '-t' ending of the past participle was then used in words that we now spell '-ed', and also b) that the apostrophe was used for the '-d' endings as well. " Gordon
Eunice: >in many of our >old letters they often have an apostrophe before the 'd' at the end of the >word, and it seems pointless to me, as if you put in an apostrophe, you may >as well have put in an 'e' - things like >dress'd, imagin'd The 'e' used to be pronounced usually, so when the writer wanted it not to be, usually in poetry, to make it scan, he would substitute an '. Presumably, when the 'e' was no longer usually pronounced the habit of the ' continued. Regards, John Moore
But Roy makes such good jokes, don't you think? Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eve McLaughlin" <eve@varneys.demon.co.uk> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, June 21, 2004 11:58 PM Subject: Re: FW: [OEL] pillow Boa_s / bers and whome made > > >Thought I had heard this somewhere - > > > >BOA: > > > >A pillow which is made especially for placing around one's neck I think? > > no - a pillow bere was a pillow case, generally listed with the linen. > > My > >Gran and my Mother had one. > such luxuries were unknown to our ancestors. > > > >Chambers defines it as: " A long, serpent-like coil of fur or feathers worn > >around the neck by women as well as the description applied to a snake." > That is a feather BOA, not a pillow bere at all. It was a fashion > item, to decorate a plain neckline or bodice > > -- > Eve McLaughlin > > Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians > Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > SEARCHABLE archives for OLD-ENGLISH: > http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=OLD-ENGLISH > >
>Thought I had heard this somewhere - > >BOA: > >A pillow which is made especially for placing around one's neck I think? no - a pillow bere was a pillow case, generally listed with the linen. > My >Gran and my Mother had one. such luxuries were unknown to our ancestors. > >Chambers defines it as: " A long, serpent-like coil of fur or feathers worn >around the neck by women as well as the description applied to a snake." That is a feather BOA, not a pillow bere at all. It was a fashion item, to decorate a plain neckline or bodice -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society