Thank you, Eve, for a comprehensive explanation. This seems to be a subject for study rather than casual reading...but then I just awoke from a nap. I'm printing this for future reference. Much appreciated, Gary

I would like to find an example on the Web of Deeds of Indenture for English men and women in the American Colonies, and I wonder if some Lister might be able to help me. Google has plenty of indexes for the appropriate words, but I've not been able to find any actual wording. The first indentured servants went over in the early 1600s, I think, and the last in the early 1700s at which time African slaves were preferred. Thanks very much for any help. Gordon Barlow

You could certainly have more than one title - in fact most Earls etc did so. The "lesser" title would go to eldest son. This is still the case. But titles in England only come down the male line. Their were some peeresses "in their own right". But I'm not sure these title could be inherited. Scotland was different - but I'm not sure of the details. Christopher Richards ----- Original Message ----- From: <GaryIvoDe@aol.com> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 5:43 AM Subject: [OEL] Titles > In the 1700's, was it possible to be an earl of Smith by birth > and an earl of Jones by marriage at the same time? > > Could one bear the title of earl and baron at the same time? > > Gary > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > To UNSUBSCRIBE from list mode -- > Send the one word UNSUBSCRIBE to > OLD-ENGLISH-L-request@rootsweb.com > > >

In the 1700's, was it possible to be an earl of Smith by birth and an earl of Jones by marriage at the same time? Could one bear the title of earl and baron at the same time? Gary

>> Tm >> Edwardi Thornes >> SirCrite(?) and, in another hand: >> >> Ex(?)(?) >> Math. Patten Not. >> Pub. >> >> There's an image at: >> >> http://hometown.aol.com/amilb36287/myhomepage/photo.html > >I read it as: > >T'm Testamentum -will of >Edvardi Thornes >Sic Orile'[?] If there is a line over, meaning omission, it probably means sic originale - 'it was (written) thus in the original will' (meaning a spelling mistake or strabge expression) >Ex'r per me extracted by me >Math. Patten Not. >Pub. > >The line over the second word of the third line indicates some sort of >abbreviation. > >I must admit that the third line had me foxed, but my usual fallback of a >Google search for a similar formula (using search phrases "per me" and "not >pub") threw up this: >Rece[ ]i Testamentum originale in usum executorio per me William Cole not. >pub. >http://www.btinternet.com/~gumbleton/compendium/wills/will2.html > >So I suppose the third line stands for "Sic originale". > >Chris Phillips > > > >==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== >THREADED archives for OLD-ENGLISH: >http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

Eve wrote: >>T'm >>Testamentum -will of >>Edvardi Thornes >>Sic Orile'[?] > If there is a line over, meaning omission, it probably means sic originale - 'it was (written) thus in the original will' (meaning a spelling mistake or strabge expression) Eve, you're absolutely right. If I had looked at the first part of the page before this will starts, I would have noticed that there are several "Sic Orile" in the will before it; for each of those, a word is underlined - obviously (now!), a strange word. In this case, the word in question is "diocese", which in the will appears as "...and the Dias. (lines both on top and under) of St. Asaph...". This was on the right side of the image I posted, which I had cut off to reduce its size... :( I'm still puzzled by the notary public's entry (the three last lines, in a different hand) "Exr. per me Matt. Patten Not. Pub.". I can't believe a misspelling of the word "diocese" would need notarizing... Thank you very much Eve, and to all who posted their comments! Great list. Alejandro Milberg Boston, MA

In message <004601c463a2$9e044bf0$d1e58690@ELIZABETH>, Ron and Liz Waring <edwaring@bigpond.com> writes >I have come across the following words in all the Indentures I have been trying >to transcribe lately and I wonder can anyone help please. >Indentura paid indorsat suit his verbis segnen under. Sealed signed and >delivered by the.. (They didn't come up as bold). Indentura, indenture, originally a document written twice on a sheet of paper or parchment, which was then cut through with a wavy (indented ) line. The boy's parents kept one, the master the other, and if a question arose, they were supposed to match the indentations. (Didn't allow for anyone using the half as a template for a new sheet and faking the wording)/. 'paid??' misread Indorsat - written on the back suit = fuit, (it) was his verbis,= in these words segnen could be signum,= signature/mark or possibly sig(ill)um, seal. Probably signum. > >The words in bold -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

I have come across the following words in all the Indentures I have been trying to transcribe lately and I wonder can anyone help please. Indentura paid indorsat suit his verbis segnen under. Sealed signed and delivered by the.. The words in bold are those which I cannot determine. Any suggestions please. Liz Waring

Alejandro Milberg wrote: > The will of Edward Thornes, proved at the PCC on 12 Feb 1732/3, has a note on > the margin which I can't really make out. > > It seems to say: > > Tm > Edwardi Thornes > SirCrite(?) and, in another hand: > > Ex(?)(?) > Math. Patten Not. > Pub. > > There's an image at: > > http://hometown.aol.com/amilb36287/myhomepage/photo.html I read it as: T'm Edvardi Thornes Sic Orile'[?] Ex'r per me Math. Patten Not. Pub. The line over the second word of the third line indicates some sort of abbreviation. I must admit that the third line had me foxed, but my usual fallback of a Google search for a similar formula (using search phrases "per me" and "not pub") threw up this: Rece[ ]i Testamentum originale in usum executorio per me William Cole not. pub. http://www.btinternet.com/~gumbleton/compendium/wills/will2.html So I suppose the third line stands for "Sic originale". Chris Phillips

In message <f.2d73fa76.2e1b3119@aol.com>, AMilb36287@aol.com writes >The will of Edward Thornes, proved at the PCC on 12 Feb 1732/3, has a note on >the margin which I can't really make out. > >It seems to say: > >Tm Testament >Edwardi Thornes of Edward Thorne >SirCrite(?) ?? maybe extracted or written out (scripsit) and, in another hand: > >Ex(?)(?) by (me?) >Math. Patten Not. Matthew Patten, notary >Pub. Public -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

The will of Edward Thornes, proved at the PCC on 12 Feb 1732/3, has a note on the margin which I can't really make out. It seems to say: Tm Edwardi Thornes SirCrite(?) and, in another hand: Ex(?)(?) Math. Patten Not. Pub. There's an image at: http://hometown.aol.com/amilb36287/myhomepage/photo.html Any help would be most appreciated. Alejandro Milberg Boston, MA

In message <90OpLGAozu5AFw2t@varneys.demon.co.uk>, Eve McLaughlin <eve@varneys.demon.co.uk> writes >In message <002401c460b9$5ab600f0$abe58690@ELIZABETH>, Ron and Liz >Waring <edwaring@bigpond.com> writes >>Hi All, >> can anyone tell me if there is a site where I can find the symbols used in 16 >>and 17th century England, especially in the inventory in wills. >They tended to use li (=librae) after the figure for pounds and s and d >for shillings and pence ( solidii and denarii) >You also get ob. after the pennies, meaning obolus, a halfpenny oh, and superscript xx for a score. So iijxxli is 3 X 20 = sixty pounds > > In the C16, marks were used in speech, but generally written as 13s 4d >ot xiiis iiijd (or ivd) -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

In message <002401c460b9$5ab600f0$abe58690@ELIZABETH>, Ron and Liz Waring <edwaring@bigpond.com> writes >Hi All, > can anyone tell me if there is a site where I can find the symbols used in 16 >and 17th century England, especially in the inventory in wills. They tended to use li (=librae) after the figure for pounds and s and d for shillings and pence ( solidii and denarii) You also get ob. after the pennies, meaning obolus, a halfpenny In the C16, marks were used in speech, but generally written as 13s 4d ot xiiis iiijd (or ivd) -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

Hi All, can anyone tell me if there is a site where I can find the symbols used in 16 and 17th century England, especially in the inventory in wills. I would be most appreciative. Liz Waring

Hi all, Here I am again, I have a death cert with the informants name transcribed and emailed to me before I got the cert, as Sutson, once more there is no one of that surname in Hunts 1841 census, just before the death. I think it is possibly Sutton but would like confirmation of that so I can trace that persons relationship. Judith suggested that I offer to send a scanned copy of the writing to anyone who would help with the confirmation of the name. Apologies I seem to be stuck on names at the moment. If you can help, please let me know, my emails are checked with anti virus. Jan Robb....N.Z. Frustratingly Hunting in Hunts.

Dear Audrey, Chris, Pete, Eve and Gary, Thanks so much for your replies to my query, I have taken a look at all the suggestions and come up with the strongest possibility being Sarrington, why did I not think of that? I found a burial of a little George 4 mths in Huntingdon Parish, Hunts. He is quite possibly the son of the George I am searching for. It isn't that common a name. Now all I need to confirm that is the 1841 census for Huntingdon, which I have asked for on the Lookup exchange. Thanks a lot for your help, Jan Robb.

Hi from wintry New Zealand, I do please need some help with a surname in one of the descendants marriages in 1822 in Woodhurst, Huntingdonshire. The Grooms name is on the microfiche as Sarranton, there is no one of that name on the Hunts 1841 census, and trying the IGI no surname same as that same in England. Have tried to think of alternative phonetic spellings but have run out of ideas, can anyone suggest alternatives please. Jan Robb....N.Z.

SARRANTINO (It.) One who came from Sorrento, in the province of Napoli in Italy. ---Source: New Dictionary of American Family Names by Elsdon C. Smith. Gary

In message <002101c45cd6$7d4d6f40$31677cca@oemcomputer>, Ken Robb <kwrobb@ispnz.co.nz> writes >Hi from wintry New Zealand, > I do please need some help with a surname >in one of the descendants marriages in 1822 in Woodhurst, Huntingdonshire. >The Grooms name is on the microfiche as Sarranton, there is no one of that name >on the Hunts 1841 census, and trying the IGI no surname same as that same in >England. Of course, he need not stay in Hunts - but if there is really no instance of the name, then consider a misread of S for L, very common or S for C, moderatly common.. or a Yarranton, name found. -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

In message <2b.5aa61151.2e0c563f@aol.com>, AMilb36287@aol.com writes >In a transcription of an English parish register some of the entries (around >1580) give the days in Roman characters, such as "... the xviij October", or >"the xxvijth day of January". I assume that the use of the "j" is just a >convention and the day is actually the 18th and the 27th respectively, but I >would >like to confirm this. yes - the letters i and j were reckoned to be synonymous, but it was regarded as tidier to end a group with j rather than a weaker i. also look out for iiij as 4, instead of iv -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society