The lozenges confuse me, here a lozenge is a sore throat med you suck on so it slowly disolves. Ruth At 12:12 PM +0100 7/16/04, Roy Louis D Cox wrote: >A very good morning or afternoon as the case may be, to all - > >I like women to bear arms - it shows whether she is used to washing up or >not! > >Apologies for the pun - but I really had to you know, because the English >language is such a strange beast at times. Imagine a foreigner reading >Chris' very succinct description of the current subject which I am sure that >we all understand quite clearly. > >Our students were very puzzled that women should have to put their arms in >the center of her husband's -! > >Kind Regards > >June & Roy (SANHS Member No 1066) >http://www.btinternet.com/~roy.cox/index.htm -- Ruth Barton mrgjb@sover.net Dummerston, VT

Hi List Haven't come across any Men O'War but crow quills are still sold - albeit in metal form from art suppliers. Crow quills can be cut to a much finer point and were used by artists rather than writers. regards Keith Feeney -----Original Message----- From: E & R Shanahan [mailto:ears@gil.com.au] Sent: 16 July 2004 00:44 To: OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [OEL] quill pens query Here is a good question for the list members... We have just bought a letter of 1806, written from Carnock Manse in Scotland to a brother in Edinburgh, and it includes this intriguing sentence quote We have had pretty good weather and the harvest is just about beginning. We are traversing the hills every day seeking Crow quills but can find no Men O' War, but plenty of small. unquote Does anyone know of this kind of designation for quills - was there a general standard for sizing them? We had not realised that crow quills would have been used, as most mentions we have seen are to goose quills, but suppose that any good large feather would provide a source for a pen. any information appreciated Eunice and Ron in Queensland ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== Going away for a while? Don't forget to UNSUBSCRIBE! OLD-ENGLISH-L-request@rootsweb.com --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.705 / Virus Database: 461 - Release Date: 12/06/2004

A very good morning or afternoon as the case may be, to all - I like women to bear arms - it shows whether she is used to washing up or not! Apologies for the pun - but I really had to you know, because the English language is such a strange beast at times. Imagine a foreigner reading Chris' very succinct description of the current subject which I am sure that we all understand quite clearly. Our students were very puzzled that women should have to put their arms in the center of her husband's -! Kind Regards June & Roy (SANHS Member No 1066) http://www.btinternet.com/~roy.cox/index.htm -----Original Message----- From: Chris Phillips [mailto:cgp@medievalgenealogy.org.uk] Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 10:20 PM To: OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [OEL] question Doctors Commons Eve McLaughlin wrote: > no such thing as a generalised 'family crest'. A crest is the device > above the helmet attached to a shield containing a coat of arms. > There are coats of arms issued to a particular person, by the College > of Arms, which descend to the eldest son of that person. I'm afraid this erroneous view is so deeply ingrained in family history circles that I despair of it ever being uprooted. Of course it's true that coats of arms don't belong to surnames, but particular families. But for the rest, to quote the website of the College of Arms: "The descent of arms in England and Wales is determined by the laws of arms, which normally allow transmission only through the male line. The arms of a man pass equally to all his legitimate children, irrespective of their order of birth. ... Arms are only transmitted through a female line when there is a failure of male heirs. A woman with no surviving brothers, or whose deceased brothers have no surviving issue, is an heraldic heiress. ... A woman may bear arms by inheritance from her father or by grant to herself. ... When unmarried, she displays her arms on a lozenge (a diamond shape) or an oval. ... When married, a woman may unite her arms with those of her husband in what are called marital arms; their arms are impaled, meaning placed side by side in the same shield, with those of the man on the dexter and those of his wife on the sinister. ... If the woman is an heraldic heiress, her arms are shown on an inescutcheon of pretence (a small shield) in the centre of her husband's arms. When widowed, a woman continues to use her marital arms, but placed on a lozenge or oval." http://www.college-of-arms.gov.uk/About/12.htm Chris Phillips ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== OLD-ENGLISH Web Page http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/

Here is a good question for the list members... We have just bought a letter of 1806, written from Carnock Manse in Scotland to a brother in Edinburgh, and it includes this intriguing sentence quote We have had pretty good weather and the harvest is just about beginning. We are traversing the hills every day seeking Crow quills but can find no Men O' War, but plenty of small. unquote Does anyone know of this kind of designation for quills - was there a general standard for sizing them? We had not realised that crow quills would have been used, as most mentions we have seen are to goose quills, but suppose that any good large feather would provide a source for a pen. any information appreciated Eunice and Ron in Queensland

Eve McLaughlin wrote: > no such thing as a generalised 'family crest'. A crest is the device > above the helmet attached to a shield containing a coat of arms. There > are coats of arms issued to a particular person, by the College of > Arms, which descend to the eldest son of that person. I'm afraid this erroneous view is so deeply ingrained in family history circles that I despair of it ever being uprooted. Of course it's true that coats of arms don't belong to surnames, but particular families. But for the rest, to quote the website of the College of Arms: "The descent of arms in England and Wales is determined by the laws of arms, which normally allow transmission only through the male line. The arms of a man pass equally to all his legitimate children, irrespective of their order of birth. ... Arms are only transmitted through a female line when there is a failure of male heirs. A woman with no surviving brothers, or whose deceased brothers have no surviving issue, is an heraldic heiress. ... A woman may bear arms by inheritance from her father or by grant to herself. ... When unmarried, she displays her arms on a lozenge (a diamond shape) or an oval. ... When married, a woman may unite her arms with those of her husband in what are called marital arms; their arms are impaled, meaning placed side by side in the same shield, with those of the man on the dexter and those of his wife on the sinister. ... If the woman is an heraldic heiress, her arms are shown on an inescutcheon of pretence (a small shield) in the centre of her husband's arms. When widowed, a woman continues to use her marital arms, but placed on a lozenge or oval." http://www.college-of-arms.gov.uk/About/12.htm Chris Phillips

Anything pertaining to heraldry, in this case crest/armorials, would be handled by the College of Arms. Therefore I don't quite understand how a member of Doctors Commons would be involved. John ---------------------------------------- My Inbox is protected by SPAMfighter 1433 spam mails have been blocked so far. Download free www.spamfighter.com today!

To Eve McLaughlin and John Waite ~ Thanks for your assistance with my enquiry re the Crossbow/Crossbolt Frank Harvey ~ Australia ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eve McLaughlin" probably crossBOW (the new technology version of the longbow). The first upright i[]=of the w is long, followed by a slightly bent doubled section, which could be read as lt

> she has given me an answer to a query I >had about two words in an old letter and they are Doctors Commons > This was in the context of someone working on changing >their family crest no such thing as a generalised 'family crest'. A crest is the device above the helmet attached to a shield containing a coat of arms. There are coats of arms issued to a particular person, by the College of Arms, which descend to the eldest son of that person. These are not just varied at will, only under specific circumstances and for younger sons of the armigerous family who have achieved something (including usually a title) in their own right. Arms are not just pretty decorations to be altered to match the curains, which is what this sounds like. >and it suggested this person go to Doctors Commons. This must be information based on lack of knowledge. Doctors Common was the location for lawyers concerned with, among other things, probate, issue of some marriage licences church courts and complex litigation on specialised subjects. It was not concerned with the issue or policing of the use of coats of arms, ever. -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

Hi LIz, The OED has the following for Doctor's Commons: "The common table and dining-hall of the Association or College of Doctors of Civil Law in London; hence, the buildings occupied and used by these as an incorporated Society and now the name of the site of these, to the south of St. Paul’s Cathedral. "The Society was formed in 1509, by civilians entitled to plead in the Court of Arches. In 1768 they were incorporated under the name of ‘the College of Doctors of Laws [of Oxford and Cambridge] exercent in the Ecclesiastical and Admiralty Courts’. In the buildings of Doctors’ Commons were held five courts, viz. the Court of Arches, Prerogative Court of Canterbury, Court of Faculties or Dispensations, Consistory Court, and High Court of Admiralty; the business included all matters of ecclesiastical law, prosecutions for heresy, divorce suits, licences for marriage, testamentary affairs, Admiralty and Prize cases, etc. The Society was dissolved in 1858 and the buildings were taken down in 1867. Literary references to Doctors’ Commons in later times usually refer to the registration or probate of wills, to marriage licences, or to proceedings for divorce." Cheers. Liz in Melbourne Quoting Ron and Liz Waring <edwaring@bigpond.com>: > I have been emailing Judith and she has given me an answer to a query I had about two words in an > old letter and they are Doctors Commons and she suggested I write and ask those of you who are > knowledgeable, just what is "Doctors Commons" ? This was in the context of someone working on > changing their family crest and it suggested this person go to Doctors Commons. Any help > gratefully accepted. > Regards Liz Waring > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > To contact the list administrator: > OLD-ENGLISH-admin@rootsweb.com > >

Re Ron and Liz's question I know a fair bit about Doctor's Commons, os if anyone is interested I could post to the list, otherwise I have e-mailed them separately. Or if anyone else knows and they post it to the list that will be fine. best wishes Eunice in Queensland At 07:31 13/07/04 +1000, Ron and Liz Waring wrote: >I have been emailing Judith and she has given me an answer to a query I had about two words in an old letter and they are Doctors Commons and she suggested I write and ask those of you who are knowledgeable, just what is "Doctors Commons" ? This was in the context of someone working on changing their family crest and it suggested this person go to Doctors Commons. Any help gratefully accepted. >Regards Liz Waring > > >==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== >To contact the list administrator: >OLD-ENGLISH-admin@rootsweb.com > >

I have been emailing Judith and she has given me an answer to a query I had about two words in an old letter and they are Doctors Commons and she suggested I write and ask those of you who are knowledgeable, just what is "Doctors Commons" ? This was in the context of someone working on changing their family crest and it suggested this person go to Doctors Commons. Any help gratefully accepted. Regards Liz Waring

> I have posted to my Web page > (http://webpages.charter.net/bob2626) a Bitmap > image of the 1572 will of Thomas Thornton and need > help with the last four lines. I am particularly > interested in the William Page mentioned at the > beginning of the last line. Is his relationship to > Thomas given? A complete transcription of the last > four lines would be very helpful to me. of my daughters one siluer spone The residue of my goods unbequeathed towards the paieng of my debts and legacies I giue unto Hierome my sonne whome I do appointe and make my sole executor of this my last will and testament as my trust is in hym Theis being witnesses William Page Richard Webbe with others Chris Phillips

I have posted to my Web page (http://webpages.charter.net/bob2626) a Bitmap image of the 1572 will of Thomas Thornton and need help with the last four lines. I am particularly interested in the William Page mentioned at the beginning of the last line. Is his relationship to Thomas given? A complete transcription of the last four lines would be very helpful to me. Thanks in advance, R. Thornton bob2626@charter.net

In message <013001c4671b$af655c50$0d6b54d2@computer>, Frank Harvey <spiritword@ozemail.com.au> writes >Hello Listers ~ >This is my first request ~ >As part of my desire to find out the background to my (HARVEY)) family history I >have recently enjoyed trawling through film of the original entries in the >Messing (Essex, UK) Parish Records from 1654 to 1812 . . . . . I found a most >interesting entry about the military involvement of the village of Messing in >the 1648 siege of the Cavalier Garrison at Colchester between 6th June and 54th >September 1648. I need some assistance in deciphering a couple of things: >[1] The document lists the Arms held by the Gentry and the Auxiliary footmen of >Messing. I can read the word 'Musket' but I can't work out what is meant by the >word: 'c---bolt.' This was a weapon of some kind. probably crossBOW (the new technology version of the longbow). The first upright i[]=of the w is long, followed by a slightly bent doubled section, which could be read a lt -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

Hello Listers ~ This is my first request ~ As part of my desire to find out the background to my (HARVEY)) family history I have recently enjoyed trawling through film of the original entries in the Messing (Essex, UK) Parish Records from 1654 to 1812 . . . . . I found a most interesting entry about the military involvement of the village of Messing in the 1648 siege of the Cavalier Garrison at Colchester between 6th June and 54th September 1648. I need some assistance in deciphering a couple of things: [1] The document lists the Arms held by the Gentry and the Auxiliary footmen of Messing. I can read the word 'Musket' but I can't work out what is meant by the word: 'c---bolt.' This was a weapon of some kind. Can someone tell me what this is? It has been suggested to me that it reads: 'Crosscolt' or Cross Bolt' ~ but the writing looks too short for such a word. [2] There is also mention of the provision of "2 troop horses" and "1/2 a troop horses". Question: How many men comprised a Troop in those days. When I was a Boy Scout it used to be eight or sixteen! Look forward to your assistance, Frank Harvey ~ Australia.

In message <004c01c4663c$7ea303e0$5e64443d@margmorse>, Marg Morse <esrom57@smartchat.net.au> writes >Explanation for the title kinsman please. >Would the person so called need to be a relation?. yes, normally by blood, though possibly a distant cousin. It MIGHT be stretched to the spouse of a cousin, but usually only if a bequest is to a child of a kinsman (who would be blood related) -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

Explanation for the title kinsman please. Would the person so called need to be a relation?. From a will dated early 1700's. Many thanks Marg

In message <158.39379321.2e1e0b90@aol.com>, AMilb36287@aol.com writes >Eve wrote: > >>>T'm >>>Testamentum -will of >>>Edvardi Thornes >>>Sic Orile'[?] > >> If there is a line over, meaning omission, it probably means sic originale >- 'it was (written) thus in the original will' (meaning a spelling mistake or >strabge expression) > > >Eve, you're absolutely right. If I had looked at the first part of the page >before this will starts, I would have noticed that there are several "Sic >Orile" in the will before it; for each of those, a word is underlined - >obviously >(now!), a strange word. > >In this case, the word in question is "diocese", which in the will appears as >"...and the Dias. (lines both on top and under) of St. Asaph...". This was >on the right side of the image I posted, which I had cut off to reduce its >size... :( > >I'm still puzzled by the notary public's entry (the three last lines, in a >different hand) "Exr. per me Matt. Patten Not. Pub.". I can't believe a >misspelling of the word "diocese" would need notarizing... If it is diAs not Dio. (the usual form) or DiOs, then that is a (minor) error, and the lawyer is pointing out it was not him wot dun it. The 'extracted' means that he was making a copy for some legal purpose - possibly taking it from the records of one court to prove or use in another. -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

In message <160.31aa1815.2e1e2ad9@aol.com>, GaryIvoDe@aol.com writes >In the 1700's, was it possible to be an earl of Smith by birth >and an earl of Jones by marriage at the same time? First, the title of Earl 90% of the time is attached not to a surname but to a location. You do get exceptions, like Earl Spencer, Earl Russell and so on, usually if there are other titles in other branches of that family. . If it is 'Earl of' then a place name will follow. Titles cannot just be assumed on marriage, but often, if an Earl (or other peer), say the Earl of Neasden, marries the sole heiress of the Earl of Mucke, and she has no uncles or male cousins waiting in the wings to inherit the title, then the monarch might make a new creation of the Earldom for the husband and their heirs. So one man could be fourth Earl of Neasden and Ist Earl of Mucke (new creation) In the ordinary way, most English titles were heritable in the male line, so if the eldest brother has daughters, the title will pass to the second brother (or his eldest son). If the line would otherwise run out, or the Earl was allowed to make special arrangements when he was ennobled, then a daughter might be able to pass on the title. Earl Mountbatten had two daughters only, so he arranged that his elder daughter should actually succeed him as Countess Mountbatten - but then, he was closely linked to the royal family. Nelson arranged to have his title passed to his brother, then, failing his heirs, to the sons of his sisters in turn, and they took the surname Nelson when they inherited (in fact, they kept running out of heirs male and the title passed down to a kinsman who was a police sergeant at the time) > >Could one bear the title of earl and baron at the same time? Yes - usually the peer would go through the stage of being a baron first, for a few generations, then be made up to Earl, if he greased the right palms. By convention, the eldest son of a peer takes the minor title of his father, as a matter of courtesy > >Gary > > >==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== >To UNSUBSCRIBE from list mode -- >Send the one word UNSUBSCRIBE to >OLD-ENGLISH-L-request@rootsweb.com > -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

Good Evening - This site (New York Public Library [Digital]) has an enormous number of references to American documents of all subjects from all states, but it is only that I'm afraid, just the reference and not the document itself. http://www.nypl.org/digital/ Thought I would put it up though just in case it could prove useful Kind Regards June & Roy (SANHS Member No 1066) http://www.btinternet.com/~roy.cox/index.htm -----Original Message----- From: Gordon Barlow [mailto:barlow@candw.ky] Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 8:01 PM To: OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [OEL] American indentures I would like to find an example on the Web of Deeds of Indenture for English men and women in the American Colonies, and I wonder if some Lister might be able to help me. Google has plenty of indexes for the appropriate words, but I've not been able to find any actual wording. The first indentured servants went over in the early 1600s, I think, and the last in the early 1700s at which time African slaves were preferred. Thanks very much for any help. Gordon Barlow ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== THREADED archives for OLD-ENGLISH: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH