I've only just been able to pick this message up. Can I make a suggestion and ask a question at the same time? Isn't a cross bolt just another word for the arrow sent in a cross bow? A bolt is another word for an arrow, isn't it, or sometimes a dart? Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank Harvey" <spiritword@ozemail.com.au> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 10:48 AM Subject: [OEL] WEAPONS AND TROOPS > To Eve McLaughlin and John Waite ~ > Thanks for your assistance with my enquiry re the Crossbow/Crossbolt > Frank Harvey ~ Australia > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Eve McLaughlin" probably crossBOW (the new technology version of the > longbow). The first upright i[]=of the w is long, followed by a slightly > bent doubled section, which could be read as lt > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > OLD-ENGLISH Web Page > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > >

In a message dated 24/07/04 23:52:57 GMT Daylight Time, norman.lee1@virgin.net writes: I've only just been able to pick this message up. Can I make a suggestion and ask a question at the same time? Isn't a cross bolt just another word for the arrow sent in a cross bow? A bolt is another word for an arrow, isn't it, or sometimes a dart? Audrey At the height of their power in the Medieval period, crossbow bolts were always referred to as quarrels. See Randall Storey, ‘The Tower of London and the garderobae armorum’, Royal Armouries Yearbook, 3, 1998. Online at _http://www.deremilitari.org/RESOURCES/ARTICLES/storey.htm_ (http://www.deremilitari.org/RESOURCES/ARTICLES/storey.htm) Pete Brown

Hi all, I have never posted to this list but do enjoy reading it. However, due to my total lack of Latin, except when it refers to BDMs, I hoped someone might be able to translate the following. It is from Nash: Collections for the History of Worcestershire: 1781-1782. This is the passage: The Lords of Acton Beauchamp have always been Patrons of the Rectory there are no arms nor monuments of note. In the first column: Johannes Fyncher de Shelve ratione advocations Will Berkeley de Cotheridge, Nathaniel Brooke, cl. facte, et ei affignate. In the second column: Georgius Ffyncher, cl. 29 Maii, 1600 R.33.f.19.a If anyone could explain the first sentence (the one in English) it would be helpful also. I know that Nathaniel BROOKE and George FINCHER were Rectors of Acton Beauchamp. I also know that most of you will be reading this thinking "is this woman thick?" The answer being, "somewhat", but this is my first venture into Nash and I freak out when Parish Registers are in Latin, although I usually manage. However, I am trying to branch out into other sources where I might find valuable information. Any help at all will be greatly appreciated. Regards, Rhonda Thompson, Sydney, Australia

> "How many miles to Babylon? > ... may it perhaps be a reference to the > duration of the Babylonian Captivity caused by Nebuchadnezzar holding the > Jews captive in Babylon till released after 70 years in 536 BC.? Thanks very much John Barton for his thoughts on the nursery rhyme. I hope I will be forgiven for digressing for a moment to tell the following. "Babylon" is a West Indian criminals' term of abuse for The Authorities in general and the Police in particular. It is relevant to mention that the level of education in my Caribbean island is pretty pathetic. A friend of mine whose son is a policeman, had his house burgled by teenage schoolboys. Finding a photo of a uniformed policeman, they trashed the young man's bedroom and wrote on the walls in two places "Babylon". Well, at least they meant to. They got the first part right, but apparently believed that the second half referred to a land, so the word written on the walls - such a gross insult - was "Babyland". Sort of spoiled the effect. Gordon Barlow

That's most interesting, Pete. Opie doesn't mention Beverleyham (presumably a real place near Beverley in the East Riding of Yorkshire). She does say: Newell, 1883 quotes: 'Marlow, marlow, marlow bright, How many miles to Babylon?', words perhaps related to the Tudor game Barley-Break. In Kipling's "Rewards and Fairies", Puck explains to Dan that Sir Huon of Bordeaux succeeded King Oberon, but was lost on the road to Babylon.: "Have you ever heard, 'How many miles to Babylon?' 'Of course', says Dan, flushing. ' Well, Sir Huon was young when that song was new' ". Stevenson quotes the rhyme, and it was once the words for a singing game, described by Gomme. Babylon signified wealth; Joshua vii 21: " I saw among the spoils a goodly Babylonish garment" is echoed by Pliny viii 74. Incidentally, we owe to the game 'barley-break', the expression 'the last couple in hell'. Three couples were arranged in a row, the centre position known as hell, from which they had to break away before getting caught by the others. Very few nursery rhymes can be traced bach more than about two centuries, so it is encouraging that an allusion to the 'Great Schism' of the church in 1377 is possible. John ----- Original Message ----- From: <NorthantsBrowns@aol.com> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 10:53 PM Subject: Re: [OEL] Babylon > > John > > Thanks for some very interesting comments on this well-known rhyme. > You may be interested to hear that I have recently seen reference to this in > an excellent book called Medieval Children by Nicholas Orme (Yale University > Press 2001). > > page 141 > "The best medieval record of a children's rhyme is that of 'How many miles > to Beverleyham?', or to 'to Babylon' as it became in later times, a rhyme that > was used in a game. This is another fragment of childhood culture recorded > in a Latin sermon, one written at the end of the 13C. The preacher was > referring to people who wish to be good Christians at one moment and fall away at > another..." > > Evidently the source was not actually Babylon, as everyone thinks. > Incidentally, this is an excellent, highly-readable and authoritative book > that I thoroughly recomment to all List members! > > regards > Pete Brown > Groby, Leicestershire >

wick comes from OE 'wic' which inturn came from Latin 'vicus'. The latest thinking on 'wic' is much the same as Cameron thought in 'English Place Names ' Revised edition 1996, that it meant a specialist farm or settlement. As far as I can see neither Cameron or Gelling give any examples of a Celtic ' place of'. David Pott KFHS 8776 The Beaver Inn, Ashford, Kent. The Elmsted site http://members.lycos.co.uk/elmsted/index.html ----- Original Message ----- > The commonest English equivalent is -wick, and there are plenty of -ck > endings too. I think the -y endings might be a little further removed > from -ck, in dialectal variance. > > > 'Ac' seems to have been a Celtic suffix denoting 'place of' (rather like > AS 'tun'). The placename's first element is almost always a personal name.

Dear List I like the one about the water connection and that would need a lot of checking up, probably on location. I wouldn't mind at all being nominated to carry it out. A fortnight isn't really long enough though. One of the difficulties with this is that most settlements tend to be placed where water is available if at all possible and so places in the region that have water but no "ac" at the end of their names may give the lie to that one. Again, research on the spot would be a very good idea! "People of" sounds good too but that would certainly require investigation on each individual place and could be a life's work. According to Gary, the style would apparently have nothing to do with the Romans and Latin and I am glad to rule that one out. Ac in Latin means and, so that didn't make any proper sense. Thank you everyone for taking the trouble over what was, for me, a puzzle every time I passed a road sign with one of these names. Interests go with you on holiday but, thankfully, don't need to be declared at customs' checks nor weighed with the baggage for boarding flights. Audrey

Then there's a children's hymn:- How many miles to Bethlehem? Not very far. Shall we find the stable room Lit by a star? and so on. I suspect this is 19th century and I am quoting it off the top of my head but it must surely be derivitive. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: <NorthantsBrowns@aol.com> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 11:53 AM Subject: Re: [OEL] Babylon > > John > > Thanks for some very interesting comments on this well-known rhyme. > You may be interested to hear that I have recently seen reference to this in > an excellent book called Medieval Children by Nicholas Orme (Yale University > Press 2001). > > page 141 > "The best medieval record of a children's rhyme is that of 'How many miles > to Beverleyham?', or to 'to Babylon' as it became in later times, a rhyme that > was used in a game. This is another fragment of childhood culture recorded > in a Latin sermon, one written at the end of the 13C. The preacher was > referring to people who wish to be good Christians at one moment and fall away at > another..." > > Evidently the source was not actually Babylon, as everyone thinks. > Incidentally, this is an excellent, highly-readable and authoritative book > that I thoroughly recomment to all List members! > > regards > Pete Brown > Groby, Leicestershire > > > In a message dated 22/07/04 00:34:49 GMT Daylight Time, > bartonlander@free.net.nz writes: > > I gather a change of topic is in order. Here's a try: > In "The Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes" by the Opies, "Can I get there > by candle-light?" was according to the Opies a common Tudor > expression:- > "How many miles to Babylon? > Three score and ten. > Can I get there by candle-light? > Yes and back again..." > > > > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > OLD-ENGLISH Web Page > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > >

David, you are of course right in associating "wick" with the Latin word. Nevertheless, one can entertain the possibility that every -wick name in England was once a -ck place-name indicator, in the time before the Latin renaming of such places. It is at least reasonable to propose that the Latin word was a variant of another Indo-European word carrying the same meaning. (And if not a variant of a such a word, what was the origin of the Latin?) Also, what word or suffix did the British or Irish Celts use as a place-indicator? Gordon Barlow > wick comes from OE 'wic' which inturn came from Latin 'vicus'. The latest > thinking on 'wic' is much the same as Cameron thought in 'English Place > Names ' Revised edition 1996, that it meant a specialist farm or settlement. > As far as I can see neither Cameron or Gelling give any examples of a Celtic > ' place of'. > > David Pott >

I gather a change of topic is in order. Here's a try: In "The Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes" by the Opies, "Can I get there by candle-light?" was according to the Opies a common Tudor expression:- "How many miles to Babylon? Three score and ten. Can I get there by candle-light? Yes and back again..." The 'three score and ten' being usually thought of as years to paradise - the commonly alloted span of man. But may it perhaps be a reference to the duration of the Babylonian Captivity caused by Nebuchadnezzar holding the Jews captive in Babylon till released after 70 years in 536 BC.? Or the term "Babylonian Captivity" applied jocularly to the Avignon Papacy of 1309 to 1377 (actually therefore only 69 years), during which the Popes were 'captive' in France. They danced 'back again' to Rome from the Papal Palace by the bridge of Avignon, which was newly paved in 1377, toutes en rouge. Brewer (Dict. of Fact and Fable) gives: "Babylonish Garment - babylonica vestis, a garment woven with divers colour)". The bridge is too narrow for dancing 'tous en rond'. This second 'Babylonian Captivity' ended largely due to the death of Simon Langham on 22nd July 1376 whilst Cardinal of Avignon. As Archbishop of Canterbury, he had in 1368 driven the secular clergy from their college of Canterbury Hall, Oxford, and filled their places with monks - headed by Wyclif. Then incurring the displeasure of Edward III the same year by accepting from Pope Urban V the appointment of Cardinal of Avignon without having obtained Royal permission. In retaliation, Edward took the extraordinary step of pronouncing the see of Canterbury void, and seizing the revenues; i.e. he declined to pay him for ridding the town of 'protestant rats'. When Robert Browning wrote his famous poem on the Pied Piper, he consulted the first printed account - Verstegan's "A Restitution of Decayed Intelligence...", 1605. Aware perhaps, that it was published by a recusant Catholic, but quite unaware that it had been carefully falsified. Verstegan together with other innovations, had, cheekily, completely altered the date of the event from 26 June 1284 (as on record at Hamelin) to that of the death of his hero, 22 July 1376. Surely impossible to assign to a journalistic error. Which date Browning blithely immortalised, resulting in the commemoration of Simon's death being now accepted by most of the world as 'Pied Piper Day'. The 13 cardinals who left Avignon, never to return there again, became 130 children; the renowned musicians of the Papal Chapel at Avignon who returned home, became the flautist; and Simon's varicoloured garb (robes of Archbishop and Cardinal 'combined') became 'pied'. Presumably they left at night, with candle-lanterns, back again to Rome. Curious how events too hot to talk about got whispered into childrens' ears! There may even be a connection with "Copped Hat" FitzAlan, as the 3rd Earl of Arundel is generally known, who lived from 1306 to 24 Jan 1375/6. His 3rd gt grandfather being Hamelin Plantagenet, born 1130, son of the first Latin King of Jerusalem, and natural brother to Henry II. He married Isabel de Warrenne in April 1164. Not that a cardinal's scarlet hat is 'copped', but an archbishop's mitre certainly is. John Barton

Forgot the list again - Sorry! -----Original Message----- From: Roy Louis D Cox [mailto:roy.cox@btinternet.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 10:39 PM To: 'Ian Buckley' Subject: RE: [OEL] Ac A very good evening - Very sound sense and much more likely than my thoughts! Just goes to show the vagaries of language but one question remains! Why is this ending not noted in my c.1900 French Dictionary, perhaps the grammar section was not considered to exceed that far? Kind Regards June & Roy (SANHS Member No 1066) http://www.btinternet.com/~roy.cox/index.htm -----Original Message----- From: Ian Buckley [mailto:Ianbuckley@uko2.co.uk] Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 7:39 PM To: OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [OEL] Ac To clarify the 'ac' question: 'Ac' seems to have been a Celtic suffix denoting 'place of' (rather like AS 'tun'). The placename's first element is almost always a personal name. In other regions of France it survives as "-at" in Auvergne, "-ach" or" -ig" in Alsace, "-é" in Poitou and Brittany, "-ey" in Champagne, and "-y" in the area south of Paris. I would guess that Welsh placenames ending '-og' are similar. IB ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== OLD-ENGLISH Web Page http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/

John Thanks for some very interesting comments on this well-known rhyme. You may be interested to hear that I have recently seen reference to this in an excellent book called Medieval Children by Nicholas Orme (Yale University Press 2001). page 141 "The best medieval record of a children's rhyme is that of 'How many miles to Beverleyham?', or to 'to Babylon' as it became in later times, a rhyme that was used in a game. This is another fragment of childhood culture recorded in a Latin sermon, one written at the end of the 13C. The preacher was referring to people who wish to be good Christians at one moment and fall away at another..." Evidently the source was not actually Babylon, as everyone thinks. Incidentally, this is an excellent, highly-readable and authoritative book that I thoroughly recomment to all List members! regards Pete Brown Groby, Leicestershire In a message dated 22/07/04 00:34:49 GMT Daylight Time, bartonlander@free.net.nz writes: I gather a change of topic is in order. Here's a try: In "The Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes" by the Opies, "Can I get there by candle-light?" was according to the Opies a common Tudor expression:- "How many miles to Babylon? Three score and ten. Can I get there by candle-light? Yes and back again..."

Belay that. I just figured it out. Gary

PRS - Antecessor Noster Full Title:Antecessor Noster: The Parentage of Countess Lucy Made Plain Author(s):K S B Keats-Rohan (Keats-Rohan, (Dr) Katharine S B, BA, MA, PhD) Series Number:2 Publication Date:May 1995 Source Type:Article Periodical:Prosopon (PRS) Language:English (Engl) Chester, Lincoln, Malet, Taillebois ================================================= "Countess Lucy Made Plain" ??? She was Lucia Malet who married Ivo de Taillebois. Can someone explain this unusual description/title? Gary

Gordon writes: 'Ac' seems to have been a Celtic suffix denoting 'place of' (rather like AS 'tun'). The placename's first element is almost always a personal name. ====================================================== There was a Celtic leader in Gaul at the time of Julius Caesar whose name ended in -ac to which the Romans added "us." Can't remember it but it's found in a Gerhard Herm book called "The Celts."

The commonest English equivalent is -wick, and there are plenty of -ck endings too. I think the -y endings might be a little further removed from -ck, in dialectal variance. Gordon Barlow > To clarify the 'ac' question: > > 'Ac' seems to have been a Celtic suffix denoting 'place of' (rather like AS 'tun'). The placename's first element is almost always a personal name. > > In other regions of France it survives as "-at" in Auvergne, "-ach" or" -ig" in Alsace, "-é" in Poitou and Brittany, "-ey" in Champagne, and "-y" in the area south of Paris. > > I would guess that Welsh placenames ending '-og' are similar. > > IB >

> Eve McLaughlin wrote: > > Personally,. I am getting extremely bored with this nitpicking, based > > on errors in the College of Arms' explanations. And I suspect so are > > others who have to pay for downloading what is not relevant to the > > original query and not exactly interesting to the vast majority of > > readers. Forget it, as I shall > With all respect to Eve: I cannot be alone in finding digressions of this sort often fascinating, and I would hate for them to be ruled out of order - or even discouraged. OE-List is much, much more interesting than the vast majority of similar Lists, and its nature is to be cherished, I think. I once belonged to a "History of English" List that became moribund purely because it discouraged all digressions. The infinitesimal marginal cost of downloading each extra posting is a price worth paying if it avoids such a fate. Eve: please relent! Gordon Barlow

To clarify the 'ac' question: 'Ac' seems to have been a Celtic suffix denoting 'place of' (rather like AS 'tun'). The placename's first element is almost always a personal name. In other regions of France it survives as "-at" in Auvergne, "-ach" or" -ig" in Alsace, "-é" in Poitou and Brittany, "-ey" in Champagne, and "-y" in the area south of Paris. I would guess that Welsh placenames ending '-og' are similar. IB

From Dr Ian Buckley I posed the question concerning the 'ac' element to a contact in France, and this is what she sent - ac - names ending with - from "akos" celtic language becoming "acum" under latin rule annd given to names of places between II d and IV th centuries = "at" in auvergne "ach" or" ig" in alsace "é" in poitou and brittany "ey" in champagne "y" south of paris always associated to a name of person for the gauls From: Contact Pays du Grand Bergeracois

-----Original Message----- From: Roy Louis D Cox [mailto:roy.cox@btinternet.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 12:00 PM To: 'norman.lee1' Subject: RE: [OEL] not old English exactly Good Morning - Flattery will get you everywhere! As it happens we have our French students at present and I posed the question to them and their French Teacher. As far as they know the two letters -ac placed at the end of a French name is meaningless! Unlike the word or letters -'ville' which means 'town' of course and in use in others countries. Interestingly though as Audry points out, this does seem to apply to that area between Perigord Blanc and Perigord Noir which looks to be mostly greenland. Two further pieces of evidence exist but not necessarily in France: Saxon and Middle English both list - ac as a word in its own right, both meaning the same - 'but' - The Saxon definition however, goes a bit further than the conjunction and gives it also as its interrogative particle - Why- Wherefore- Whether. It also gives an ancient definition of it meaning OAK - sourced from several Saxon charters, wills and other documents of European origin and finally states - "Ship of Oak" - There is no mention in any of my other English or French dictionaries. What if the greenland area between Blanc and Noire once supplied Oak for ship building? Bergerac is on La Dordogne river which joins La Garonne north of Bordeaux where wooden ships were without doubt once built? To confound that theory however, there are several other places going west to the coastline that also have this ending of -ac, although they might also have supplied Oak? That is of course the Oak tree was grown in France? Kind Regards June & Roy (SANHS Member No 1066) http://www.btinternet.com/~roy.cox/index.htm -----Original Message----- From: norman.lee1 [mailto:norman.lee1@virgin.net] Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 8:52 PM To: OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [OEL] not old English exactly Knowing how knowledgeable you all are, perhaps you can help me with a query raised by my visit to France. In mitigation for it not being English, I have to say that it was the Aquitaine part that Eleanor brought to the English crown. The question is this: does anyone know why so many towns in the Perigord region of France have 'ac' at the end of their names, e.g. Bergerac; Issyjac; and many others? There are even quite small places like Cahujac and many of the place names end in 'ac'. I am hopeless at surfing the Net and, despite trying, have found nothing to tell me the answer to this. If you can just point me in the right direction to find the answer, I'd be very pleased indeed. It's like an itch in an unreachable part of the body at the moment. Audrey ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== OLD-ENGLISH Web Page http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/