In message <93EC899E92A38749B4B93AC4319D25B605B3E3FE@saffron.cfs.le.ac.u k>, "Tompkins, M.L." <mllt1@leicester.ac.uk> writes >>>>One thought on the Dinton etc names, would it not seem strange to >>>find Old >English name elements of C5th to C7th still in use in a >>>Danish area in the >late C9th. > ><<It was not a Danish area per se, but an area beyond the borders of the >Danelaw, though not too far for its influence to be felt. A bunch of Danes had >intruded, fought a messy battle, and settled by right of >conquest. Which is why it was the Danes' place (personal names unknown >because we don't speak to that lot) >Another hamlet a few miles across country is called Eythrop - again a >Danish tag, covering a settlement of aliens beyond the usual boundaries >of the Danelaw. It is what happens at the interface of two opposing >peoples.>> > > >I don't think either of those names indicates Danish settlement, Eve. Certainly >not Dinton, which is a wholly Anglo-Saxon place-name meaning the tun of Dunna's >people I must disagree on both points, Matt. Dinton is so often Danington, whicth the long tradition of the Danish battle both there and at Bledlow (with some AS Chronicle back up, which I haven't the leisure to check now, but have seen). The interesting story of the plant mutation because of the presence of so much blood in the earth at one spot is backed up by the presence of these plants, to which a regular pilgrimage used to be made, in simpler times, and the story undoubtedly passed down in this way. And Thorp is definitely the Danish element for hamlet. >1. the Scandinavian word thorp entered the English language after the Danish >and Norwegian invasions, and new settlement names were formed using it at much >later dates (even after the Norman Conquest) by populations that were no longer >either Anglo-Saxon or Danish/Norwegian, or even Anglo-Danish, but simply >English. Since Eythrope is first recorded in 1167, #first recorded' must mean a prior existence - it isn't, oh, i am going to have to write down some sort of name for this place, what new name can I dream up? but a simple use of the existing name. >Eythrope meets both criteria - it is not only outside the areas of dense >Scandinavian place-names but is even outside the Danelaw itself (just), and the >earliest recorded spellings are in -throp. From 1255 occasional -thorp >spellings appear, but -throp spellings still form the majority, right up to the >present day. 'Just' is the point - Bucks was very much subject to casual raids, and inevitably, some raiders settled. -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

In message <12694399.1092211072823.JavaMail.www@wwinf3001>, John Edwin Lindley <member@lindley-york.freeserve.co.uk> writes >Hi > >Apologies - Latin, not OE but any help appreciated if possible. I'm a bit >puzzled by the following, where the visitation seem to have uncovered a >state of neglect. My small Latin dictionary doesn't seem to include >medieval and Church Latin, and I'm a bit stuck on variations in meanings >such as: Seqyestering is taking away the cure of souls from a clergyman - mostly this would be because of gross misconduct, as the appointment, once made, was usually only terminable by death or voluntary resignation. When the removal is sudden, an official called a sequestrator is appointed until such time as the clergyman is tried and restored or finally dismissed and a new man found. But this is 1559, a year after Mary's Catholic clergy were being replaced by good Protestants. Here the clergyman (curate covered any clergyman with a 'cure' or care of the parish) had gone, for whatever reason, voluntarily or not, and the parish is vacant, possibly because the patron refused to appoint someone else whose doctrines he did not like. The care of the working of the parish, and the collection of fees and tithes(fructus et decimas) was committed to these three men, probably the churchwardens of most important men of the parish, who would collect and be accountable for them when a new clergyman was appointed/ > >'Super detectione exhibita per Iconomos et parochianos de Maltbye quod >ecclesia vacata et destituta sit curato, omnes fructus et decimas eiusdem >sequestranda fore decreverunt, sequestracionem quoque eorundem fructuum >Joanni Persleye et Willelmo Lynley ac Joanni Sheppard, dicte ecclesie >Iconomis, commiserunt &c.' >Source: The Royal Visitation of 1559 (Surtees Society Vol.187 [1972]) > >Any help appreciated. > >John Lindley >Wigginton >NRY > -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

In message <a04310138bd3f17710cd0@[216.114.165.26]>, Ruth Barton <mrgjb@sover.net> writes >What would yelling "cumbyer" do? And what does it mean please? = I say, you sheep you, go forward and make a slight turn towards the right into that gap - that's a good girl then' - at least, that is what it appears the shepherd is saying to them. -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

>>>One thought on the Dinton etc names, would it not seem strange to >>>find Old English name elements of C5th to C7th still in use in a >>>Danish area in the late C9th. <<It was not a Danish area per se, but an area beyond the borders of the Danelaw, though not too far for its influence to be felt. A bunch of Danes had intruded, fought a messy battle, and settled by right of conquest. Which is why it was the Danes' place (personal names unknown because we don't speak to that lot) Another hamlet a few miles across country is called Eythrop - again a Danish tag, covering a settlement of aliens beyond the usual boundaries of the Danelaw. It is what happens at the interface of two opposing peoples.>> I don't think either of those names indicates Danish settlement, Eve. Certainly not Dinton, which is a wholly Anglo-Saxon place-name meaning the tun of Dunna's people (see both Place-names of Bucks and Ekwall). And while the second element of Eythrope just might be the Scandinavian -thorp, there are two other non-Danish explanations which are more likely. 1. the Scandinavian word thorp entered the English language after the Danish and Norwegian invasions, and new settlement names were formed using it at much later dates (even after the Norman Conquest) by populations that were no longer either Anglo-Saxon or Danish/Norwegian, or even Anglo-Danish, but simply English. Since Eythrope is first recorded in 1167, and its first element seems to be an Anglo-Saxon word, it may well come into this category. 2. there was also an Anglo-Saxon word throp/thorp, with exactly the same meaning as the Old Norse thorp, which was in use before the Danish and Norwegian invasions and was used to make place-names in areas far outside the Danelaw. It is of course difficult to say with certainty whether any given -thorpe place-name originated from the Scandinavian or the Anglo-Saxon word (or even the Middle English one mentioned above), but there are generally reckoned to be two pointers to an Anglo-Saxon origin: (1) location outside the parts of the Danelaw which contain many place-names of Old Norse origin, and (2) many early spellings in -throp rather than -thorp. Eythrope meets both criteria - it is not only outside the areas of dense Scandinavian place-names but is even outside the Danelaw itself (just), and the earliest recorded spellings are in -throp. From 1255 occasional -thorp spellings appear, but -throp spellings still form the majority, right up to the present day. Eythrope and the other -throp place-names in Bucks are discussed in the Place-name Society's 'English Place-name Elements' (Pt ii, p 216) and in Gillian Fellows-Jensen's 'Scandinavian Settlement Names in the East Midlands' (Copenhagen, 1978) at p 83. Both came to the conclusions I have reported above. Matt Tompkins Blaston, Leics

Aah- I've suddenly become nostalgic about samphire- it doesn;t grow here in Tasmania. Jean ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gordon Barlow" <barlow@candw.ky> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2004 7:52 AM Subject: [OEL] "Half the King's Subjects" > I hope Judith will not object to my posting a summary of British life in > 1637, from a book I have just read. As an Australian, my and my wife's > British ancestors lived in widely scattered parts of Britain, and I am > shamefully ignorant of the way things were in those parts. Other Listers > may be too, ignorant of the general circumstances of their ancestors' lives. > There are other fascinating extracts I could give, but will not do so > without Judith's permission. > > Gordon Barlow > > "At least half the King's subjects derived their living directly or > indirectly from the sea... The mussel beds of the Cumbrian and Scottish > shores yielded pale irregular pearls... the oysters of Colchester and > Whitstable... Selsey cockles... sprats and eels of the Thames estuary... > eels from northern Ireland and lampreys from the Severn estuary... pilchards > from Plymouth and Penzance. > > "Berwick had long been famous for salmon and shellfish but had recently > fallen on hard times. The fisher-folk, tempted by the possibility of a > record haul, had broken the Sabbath and gone out in their boats. Since that > time the salmon had deserted Berwick, whose present distress was held up as > a warning to all who despised the commandments. > > "... fisher folk came from as far north as the coast of Durham and as far > west as Lyme to sell their herring on the Yarmouth quays... the Scots were > discovering the Greenland whale fisheries, but the English Muscovy Company > disputed the fishing rights... Fishing rights in Scotland's own waters were > savagely contested, for lowland intruders were opposed by the people of the > Highland coasts and the Hebrides, and the aggressive Hollanders fell upon > both alike. > > "Where the coasts were low-lying, hundreds of salt pans... refineries at > Newcastle, Colchester and Chester. Where the coast was rocky, seaweed was > carted inland to enrich the soil. On cliffs and sandhills men gathered > samphire and looked for ambergris among the sea-drift, to sell to the > kitchens of the rich... fresh-water eels from Abingdon, Severn greyling and > Arundel mullet... > > "Minehead and Barnstaple exchanged wares and travellers with Tenby [Wales] > and the ports of southern Ireland... Fifty sail from these ports put into > the Severn estuary for the Bristol fair in July... A fleet of 300 ships > carried Newcastle coal to London. Dumbarton and Whitehaven sent colliers to > Dublin... Ayr and Irvine traded with France; Leith, Dundee, Aberdeen & > Stonehaven with Norway, Denmark and the Low Countries...Cross-Channel > traffic from Dartmouth and Exeter brought in flax and hemp from Normandy and > Brittany and exported it again as sail-cloth and buckram. > > "From Bristol, Plymouth and Southampton ships sailed for the American > colonies, with supplies of malt and meal, shirts and shoes, cloth and > hardware. From there they turned north to Newfoundland for fish which they > sold in Cadiz, and came home with Spanish wines. Between northern Ireland > and the Western Isles native coracles plied a traffic in crude liquor and > fugitive criminals. > > "London was first and foremost a seaport. Merchantmen from Antwerp and > Amsterdam, Calais and Bordeaux, Lisbon, Leghorn and Cadiz, Bergen, Hamburg > and Archangel, Constantinople, the East and West Indies, rode at anchor in > the Pool... Fresh water had been brought within reach by the New River > Company which had diverted the river Lea to Islington; but rosemary and > jasmine were in constant demand to disguise the putrid smells of streets and > houses. London children suffered badly from rickets, and the various > epidemic diseases vaguely defined as plague caused ten thousand deaths in > the bad year 1636." > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > OLD-ENGLISH Web Page > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ >

Hi Apologies - Latin, not OE but any help appreciated if possible. I'm a bit puzzled by the following, where the visitation seem to have uncovered a state of neglect. My small Latin dictionary doesn't seem to include medieval and Church Latin, and I'm a bit stuck on variations in meanings such as: sequestranda / sequestracionem - the 'ancient' meaning seems to relate to 'intermediary' but there are later meanings of 'confiscation' and to do with 'trusteeship' - consequently I'm not sure whether the named persons are to be entrusted with the fruits and tithes or are having something taken from them ... 'Super detectione exhibita per Iconomos et parochianos de Maltbye quod ecclesia vacata et destituta sit curato, omnes fructus et decimas eiusdem sequestranda fore decreverunt, sequestracionem quoque eorundem fructuum Joanni Persleye et Willelmo Lynley ac Joanni Sheppard, dicte ecclesie Iconomis, commiserunt &c.' Source: The Royal Visitation of 1559 (Surtees Society Vol.187 [1972]) Any help appreciated. John Lindley Wigginton NRY -- Whatever you Wanadoo: http://www.wanadoo.co.uk/time/ This email has been checked for most known viruses - find out more at: http://www.wanadoo.co.uk/help/id/7098.htm

<<Super detectione exhibita per Iconomos et parochianos de Maltbye quod ecclesia vacata et destituta sit curato, omnes fructus et decimas eiusdem sequestranda fore decreverunt, sequestracionem quoque eorundem fructuum Joanni Persleye et Willelmo Lynley ac Joanni Sheppard, dicte ecclesie Iconomis, commiserunt &c.>> Until the new Dictionary of Medieval Latin from British Sources is complete (at the moment they're up to the fascicule for M, I think) the best (almost the only) dictionary for medieval and early modern Latin is RE Latham's Revised Medieval Latin Word List. Looking in Latham it seems that at this period 'sequestro' meant 'to sequestrate' (ie confiscate), but in relation to ecclesiastical revenues could mean little more than 'to collect'. Consequently, deploying my meagre stock of O-Level Latin (and wishing the Renaissance hadn't taught early modern Englishmen to write proper classical Latin once again - the Latin in the medieval manorial records I study is much easier), I think your paragraph means: 'On the information provided by the churchwardens and parishioners of Maltby that the church having been vacated and left destitute by the curate all the fruits and tithes to be collected of it have diminished, they committed the collection of the said fruits also to JP, WL and JS the said church's churchwardens' But I have to admit that I've never really come to terms with the subjunctive mood, which I think is used in some of the verbs here, so I hope someone else can do a better job. Matt Tompkins Blaston, Leics

The swedish is äng, pronounced eng. Kevin Brewer

Eve, yes exactly, I have no problem finding help with latin used everyday at local level, and I have Eileen Gooder and the Revised Latin Word list and other aids, but none of them do exactly what I described and I don't know if it exists anywhere. Lyn B

In message <000001c47f22$5aeaf620$124b4d51@lynhome>, Lyn Boothman <annys@boothman27.fsnet.co.uk> writes >John or any others, as John said the web is full of Latin word lists and >phrases and sayings, but has anyone found a website which particularly >features those bits of official latin that local and family historians are >most likely to come across - outside the realm of manorial courts and >inventories. > >I am dealing with a load of 17th century correspondence and some official >documents, often with the odd bits of Latin in them, which could now be >translated several ways but probably had one very definite meaning at the >time. > >An example, does 'p lre de primat Sigillo' at the end of a letter / document >from the king or the signet office mean: > >By letter with the privy seal or >By letter under the privy seal or >By letter from the office of the privy seal any of those - means the same thing. >I can find hundreds of phrases and sayings sites, but has some nice expert >put together a list of these sort of phrases?? Long ago - I wrote Simple Latin for Family Historians, which covers everything that you would meet in a parish register (names, occupations, relationships, words for BMD, number, date, will probate. And Manorial Records, which includes Latin regularly used in those. Denis Stuart includes more mediaeval words in his Manorial Records, with document extracts. The Borthwick Institute, York, do folders of documents with key transcriptions for different periods > >Lyn B > > > > > > > >==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== >SEARCHABLE archives for OLD-ENGLISH: >http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=OLD-ENGLISH > -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

Ja samme. 1. eng -a, in Dano-Norwegian means meadow, pasture. and 2. eng, limited, narrow - Denne meldingen er sjekket for virus av Norton Anti-virus - This message was checked for virus by Norton Anti-virus ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tompkins, M.L." <mllt1@leicester.ac.uk> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2004 6:01 AM Subject: RE: [OEL] Ings and -ings > >>>I came across the word "ing" the other day, claimed to be the word >>> for a meadow in East Anglia > > <<It is normally reckoned to be a word either for household or group, or small settlement, where said household chose to live. So Haddenham - > Hadd/a/s ing's piece of real estate in a larger settlement. Bocking - > Bocc/a/'s settlement; Dinton aka Donington or Danington - the Danish > chap's settlement. I have not come across it as just a single field - > only in relation to a person and his lot.>> > > > I'm afraid that's a different kind of ing, Eve, not itself a word but only ever found added as a suffix to a proper name or noun to form Anglo-Saxon placenames of the sort you describe (and also personal names). > > This ing is a word in its own right, one which entered the language in northern England after the Danish and Norwegian invasions (for all I know they still use it up there - I'm a southerner, me). Leigh Yeager has given some examples of its use as a word. In northern English it changed from eng to ing in the 14th century (compare the way we pronounce England as Ingland). > > The Danish ing doesn't get mentioned much in books on place-names, as for some reason it was hardly ever used in the formation of major place-names, but it is relatively common in the names of fields and farms and small places like that, and for that reason is probably mentioned in Field's book on Field Names (I don't have a copy to hand, so I can't be categorical, though I do know that it definitely is discussed in the English Place-name Society's dictionary of English Place-name Elements). > > On the south bank of the Humber estuary the 1:50,000 map shows some low-lying meadows called Winteringham Ings, which neatly illustrates the two kinds of ings. > > Gordon asked if the word is still in use in Scandinavia - the answer is Ja, you will find in 'eng' meaning meadow in any Danish directory (I'm not sure about Norwegian, though). > > Matt > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > THREADED archives for OLD-ENGLISH: > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > >

In message <BAY14-DAV14mVFOh1vd000009c0@hotmail.com>, David Pott <davpott@hotmail.com> writes > > > > >> >> It is normally reckoned to be a word either for household or group, or >> small settlement, where said household chose to live. So Haddenham - >> Hadd/a/s ing's piece of real estate in a larger settlement. Bocking - >> Bocc/a/'s settlement; Dinton aka Donington or Danington - the Danish >> chap's settlement.> > >Not quite, the Old English ingas suffix element translates to "followers of" >or "dependants of". So Haddenham probably translates to "homestead of the >followers or dependants of Hadda". Bocking probably translates to "followers >or dependants of Bocca" and would originally have refered to the people not >to any fixed place or settlement. This is a bit of a quibble. Groups led by a particular person (chief equivalent) settled down to live together - otherwise the 'followers' would no longer have been part of Hadda's or Bocca's group. And once they had settled, and remained, the place took their name. Otherwise - had they moved on, somewhere else would have become known as Bocking. >One thought on the Dinton etc names, would it not seem strange to find Old >English name elements of C5th to C7th still in use in a Danish area in the >late C9th. It was not a Danish area per se, but an area beyond the borders of the Danelaw, though not too far for its influence to be felt. A bunch of Danes had intruded, fought a messy battle, and settled by right of conquest. Which is why it was the Danes' place (personal names unknown because we don't speak to that lot) Another hamlet a few miles across country is called Eythrop - again a Danish tag, covering a settlement of aliens beyond the usual boundaries of the Danelaw. It is what happens at the interface of two opposing peoples. -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

In message <00b301c47eca$74b79b60$9cd1fc3e@oemcomputer>, "norman.lee1" <norman.lee1@virgin.net> writes >Can anyone remember when Arab horses first came into the country? I have a >feeling it was sometime in the 18th century. All thoroughbreds trace their >breeding back to the first one, I think, although I may be confusing this >with something else.? exactly - the Byerley Arab was responsible for a lot,. So cavalry of Rupert's time were after heavy draught horses, fully up to the job. > >Horses of any sort around here seem to have been on the rare side in the >17th century. Those for riding only were very few. Well not really - It was normal for the gentry to ride around across country on horseback, and farmers did the same. When coaches came in, there were sneers that only pregnant ladies and old folk should be using them, not 'normal' men or even young women/ > >Someone mentioned pigs? I found that these were also for the wealthy. The >richest man between 1650-1700 in three townships had two. TRhat must have been a very odd community. Pigs were general around cottages, and on farms - the numbers are conditioned by the time of year, since in winter oink oink becomes bacon. But every manor had its pigs, and the right to pannage to feed them. -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

John or any others, as John said the web is full of Latin word lists and phrases and sayings, but has anyone found a website which particularly features those bits of official latin that local and family historians are most likely to come across - outside the realm of manorial courts and inventories. I am dealing with a load of 17th century correspondence and some official documents, often with the odd bits of Latin in them, which could now be translated several ways but probably had one very definite meaning at the time. An example, does 'p lre de primat Sigillo' at the end of a letter / document from the king or the signet office mean: By letter with the privy seal or By letter under the privy seal or By letter from the office of the privy seal To be a letter with the privy seal or what ??? I can find hundreds of phrases and sayings sites, but has some nice expert put together a list of these sort of phrases?? Lyn B

Hi all, I have certainly seen ing used in Yorkshire. Also the OED cites several references there and one in Sussex. It seems that an ing was often swampy but maybe not as wet as a fen. A carr was also a bit damp, being "wet boggy ground" or "a meadow recovered from a bog" - perhaps somewhere between an ing and a fen, the latter being "low land covered wholly or partially with shallow water, or subject to frequent inundations; a tract of such land, a marsh". Carr and fen are also Old Norse. John Field, in "English Field Names" has: Ing Close, Clayworth Nt, New Hutton We; Ing Field, pre-enclosure great field in Skirpenbeck ERY; Ingmire, Hurworth Du; Ings Holm, Everton Nt; Ings Meadow, Adlingfleet WRY: 'pasture land' [ON eng]. There follows the entry in the OED for ing. Cheers, Liz in Melbourne ing. local. Forms: enge, ynge, yng, ing(e. [a. ON. eng f., enge, engi neut. (Da. eng, Sw. äng), meadow, meadow-land. (Not recorded in OE.)] A common name in the north of England, and in some other parts, for a meadow; esp. one by the side of a river and more or less swampy or subject to inundation. 1483 Cath. Angl. 115/1 "Enge, vbi a medew." 1494 in Ripon Ch. Acts (Surtees) 261 "Elsay ynges." 1583 Ibid. 381 "A lease of Swilinge yng; the lease of Bushop yng." 1626 Quarter Sessions Rec. III. (North Riding Rec. Soc.) 14 "A common waie for leading corne and haie for the inhabitants of Great Broughton from their inges and feildes to the said towne, and for their cariages to the mill." 1663 MS. Indenture, Barlby, Yks., "2 half acres of meadow in the broad ing in Angram." 1793 Act 33 Geo. III, c. xci. title, "An act for dividing..the commons and waste grounds and ings, or meadow grounds, within the township of Knottingley, in the west riding of the county of York." 1828 Craven Dial., "Ing, a marshy meadow." 1848 C. Brontë J. Eyre ix, "Mists as chill as death..rolled down ‘ing’ and holm till they blended with the frozen fog of the beck." 1851 Jrnl. R. Agric. Soc. XII. ii. 314 "Others [Fens] termed ‘ings’, belonging to various towns, yet remain (at particular seasons) in a wet condition." 1875 Parish Sussex Gloss., "Ing, a common, pasture, or meadow." c1890 Newspr., "This morning there is fully 5 ft. of ‘fresh’ in the Derwent, and the river is still rising. In the ings and marshes of the East Riding the river is over the banks." b. attrib., as ing ground, ing land. 1641 Best Farm. Bks. (Surtees) 32 "In a moist yeare hard-lande-grasse proveth better then carres, or ing-growndes." 1794 Act Inclosing S. Kelsey 2 "Carr Lands, Ing Lands..and Furze Leas, within the said Manor." snip

The Godolphin Arabian, one of the first, and probably the most important, of the arabian stallions in this country died in 1753 and is buried at Wandlebury just outside Cambridge. I put godolphin+arabian into google and the first site on this list gives a comprehensive summary of his life and descendants, you can find it at http://www.tbheritage.com/Portraits/GodolphinArabian.html I have seen early 17th century lists/accounts with reference to riding horses, but whether that means they were physically different from coach horses or just that they were horses commonly used for riding, is another matter. Lyn B

Thanks to you, and to your friend, Matt: a fine answer. It has been kind of Judith not to pull the plug on this discussion which - off-topic as it may have been, largely - is very much in line with the Rootsweb ethos! Probably most (all?) of us on this List had ancestors affected by this war of marauding armies living by foraging (read: robbing). Let me close with a final extract from Wedgwood's book: "The very poor were not those who suffered most [during the long war]. Those who suffered most were the yeomen and small tradesmen - the weavers of the West Riding with all their mechanism of sale and distribution dislocated, the cattle-drovers of North Wales and the Herefordshire marches, the sheep-farmers of the Wiltshire Downs, the hardworking yeomen up and down the country whose horses had been confiscated, whose cattle and sheep had been driven off." Gordon > <<I am just reading about the latter years of the Civil War (1645+), when both parties regularly replaced horses killed in combat, by scouring the neighbourhoods they marched through. How that practice must have added to the workloads of the farmers! Did they go back to oxen, for the duration? Well, they must have done, unless they pulled the ploughs themselves.>> > > > >An interesting question, Gordon. It's a bit later than my period, so I thought I'd put it to Prof Pete Edwards at Roehampton University, who knows a bit about these things, having recently published books on The Horse Trade in Tudor and Stuart England and on equiping the Civil War armies (Dealing in Death: The Arms Trade and the British Civil Wars, 1638-52). > > He said that he hadn't ever explored the question directly, but that from a priori reasoning one would think it quite possible that as horses were being taken away by the army the farmers had to resort to oxen. At Oxford the Royalist Council of War decided to get rid of their draught oxen in March 1644, reckoning they were not as useful as horses in the draught - a decision which would have meant fewer horses but more oxen available to local farmers. > > The problem is that it wouldn't necessarily have been that easy to change over to oxen suddenly. Horses and oxen were used for different purposes, ate different foods, were trained differently, made use of at the end of their working lives in different ways (ie were integrated into local economies in terms of crops grown, the process of training and selling on &c). At the very least mixed farming areas would have to lay down more land to grass and buy oxen in, perhaps from distant sources, a dangerous business (and if there weren't enough available it would have taken a while to breed them - though they could be used for draught at a younger age than horses). > > All in all he thinks that farmers probably did convert back to oxen in some places but that it depended on local circumstances, traditions and availability. > > Matt > > ______________________________

I was wondering how many cows the ordinary citizen would have at that time. It would seem to me that a family would have A cow for milk and a sheep or two for meat and wool and that would be about it. I would imagine somebody would have a bull, probably the Lord of the area, and charge for his services. Did they have pigs as well and goats? If they had pigs how were they kept? I don't know much about early times in England. Thanks, Ruth At 6:06 PM +0100 8/7/04, David Pott wrote: >Hello Audrey > >> However, I would like to know if there is evidence of the meadows being >> enclosed in some way to stop cattle from getting on to the part of land >that >> was growing winter fodder > >There were very few if any herds of cattle, nor with the exception of sheep, >any livestock farming as such until after the enclosures. What few animals >that were kept would have been grazed on their owners land or upon the >common. That isn't to say the odd one didn't find its way to somewhere it >shouldn't be. > >David Pott -- Ruth Barton mrgjb@sover.net Dummerston, VT

What would yelling "cumbyer" do? And what does it mean please? Ruth In the case of sheep, having a word in the ear of the bell-wether may work or yelling cumbyer! They can't reverse, of course, which means the route out will have to be in a wide circle. -- Ruth Barton mrgjb@sover.net Dummerston, VT

> > It is normally reckoned to be a word either for household or group, or > small settlement, where said household chose to live. So Haddenham - > Hadd/a/s ing's piece of real estate in a larger settlement. Bocking - > Bocc/a/'s settlement; Dinton aka Donington or Danington - the Danish > chap's settlement.> Not quite, the Old English ingas suffix element translates to "followers of" or "dependants of". So Haddenham probably translates to "homestead of the followers or dependants of Hadda". Bocking probably translates to "followers or dependants of Bocca" and would originally have refered to the people not to any fixed place or settlement. One thought on the Dinton etc names, would it not seem strange to find Old English name elements of C5th to C7th still in use in a Danish area in the late C9th. David Pott