Regarding the Durham entry, can someone tell me what it means? A priest has been arrested and questioned. Who is Tailbois? Is there any way to tell the outcome of these proceedings? It is interesting that people named Tailbois also went by the name of Sicklemore both in England and Virginia. Gary

Feb. 5.Lease to Francis, Earl of Cumberland, of lands, co. Cumberland, parcel of the Duchy of Lancaster. [Ind. Wt. Bk., p. 42.] Feb. 5.65. Examination of Tho. East, waterman, on the sayings of — Procter. [See 3 Jan.] Feb. 5. Durham.66. Dean James to Salisbury. Arrest and examinations of John Sicklemore, alias Ward, a priest; curious specimens of his equivocation. Salisbury's Exposure of Equivocations is greedily read. Wm. Tailbois, Percy's man, indicted for murder of Roger Smith. Incloses, 66. I. Note of the examination of Rob. Hawkesworth relative to Sicklemore, and his equivocations. Feb. 5. Durham. Feb. 6. Edinburgh.67. Earl of Mar to Salisbury. Regrets his illness. Hopes the Scotch Parliament will be over by St. George's day. Recommends Sir Henry Carmichael. Thinks Sir Edward More shoots at him (Mar), in a bill which he has brought into Parliament for satisfaction of all leases granted in her late Majesty's time. Begs that the affair may be settled by Common Law. From: British History Online Source: James I: Volume 18: January-February, 1606. Calendar of State Papers Domestic: James I, 1603-1610, Mary Anne Everett Green (Editor) (1857). URL: _http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=15003_ (http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=15003) Date: 13/09/2004 © Copyright 2003 University of London & History of Parliament Trust

Hello All Another list member directed me to Scottish Documents on-line which has a mass of information and answered many of my questions. It includes handwriting, unusual words, money, Jaj dates etc. and should be brought to everyone's attention. Here is the help website. http://www.scottishdocuments.com/content/research_writinghelp.asp?nomenu= regards Chris Bartlett

Hello Eve and list Thanks for the help. No it's not a mistake. It was all in writing but after working a bit further through it I am not sure whether this is what he owes or what is owed to him and I initially misunderstood the summary as follows. After I was directed to the Scottish Documents site which has a currency converter I found that Scots money varied quite a bit in value depending on the date and the £26150-1-10 Scots is only worth £2179-3-5 sterling after 1707 when the currency was withdrawn. I feel a bit more comfortable with this figure but I still need to understand if the debts were owed to the deceased. "Summa Inventory Is three thousand six hundred thirteen pound eighteen shilling Scots money" " summa of the saids debts is twenty two thousand fyve hundred thirtie six pound three shilling ten pennies Scots money summa inventory and debts is twenty six thousand one hundred fyfty pound one shilling ten pennies Scots money" As the inventory was a positive amount and was added to the debts it looks as though the debts are owed to him but the following might help. The inventory is followed by the following statement and then lists bonds granted by quite a number of people. " Debts resting to the defunct......" Then followed the bonds of which the following is a typical example " .......Item one thousand merks Scots of principle containd in a bond granted by James Kirkman of Kirktounhill to the said defunct datted the fyfth day of December jajvij and twenty nine years which bond contains two hundreth merks of penalty jnde six hundred sixty six pounds thirteen shilling four pennies Scots Item @ rent of the said principle summ from Martinmas Jajvij and thirty eight to the defuncts death one hundered ten pound Eight shilling....." 1 merk = 13s and 4d regards Chris Bartlett > >> > >> The other odd thing about this person is this document shows > >> he has assets of £26000 Scots and debts of £22000 Scots > a pound Scots was worth less than a pound sterling - about 15s, I > think.It is still a great deal of money - could it be 26-00-00, or 00-0 > meaning 26 pounds no shillings, no pence. > > > -- > Eve McLaughlin > > Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians > Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

In message <002401c49712$01b10380$18ccfc3e@oemcomputer>, "norman.lee1" <norman.lee1@virgin.net> writes >A quick reply Chris > >The first thing that strikes me is that there is the odd Latin word or >phrase put in here and there and I am puzzled by some of the words you have >written. Could you help? > >The first is Jajvii which, I assume, is part of the date but as you follow >it with the words forty two years, I'm uncertain. Something that has just >occured to me - is it that the deceased was forty two years old? The only >problem with this is the last mention of these words which couldn't possibly >apply to anyone's age. Can you make this any clearer? > >I don't have a problem with the word german as I think this is germain and >just means belonging to or appertaining to. > >As you don't give a list of his inventory, i.e. his personal estate, not >including his real estate, although there may be an estimation of it's value >somewhere within these documents, I can't say that I would find a problem >with his having a large amount of debts or outgoings. His spending habits, >his business transactions etc may have demanded that, at certain times, he >would have more debts than you may expect. On the other hand, you may >possibly find somewhere that there is a list of his debtors, people that owe >him money. I should think a certain amount would depend upon his financial >setup. Depending upon his circumstances at the time of death, he may not >have had a large net amount of money or estate. There are many imponderables >here. Yet another possibility is that he may have already transferred some >of his assets to his children, possibly in order to avoid tax. This is not a >new thing. > >Hope you can answer some of these questions. > >Audrey > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Chris Bartlett" <woodcom@ihug.co.nz> >To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> >Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 1:22 AM >Subject: [OEL] Dative and inventory of Robert Scott 1742 of Benholm > > >> Hello All >> >> I have downloaded what I thought was supposed to be a will but >> is more an inventory of Bonds and debts. I had hoped it would >> be mine and nicely name all the children but not being a will >> it was too much to ask. >> >> Below is a transcript of the first part of the document and I >> would like some help to understand it. Is it saying that David >> Scott and Katherine Scott (married Phillip Fullerton in 1725)are >> his brother and sister. The word "german" is used quite a bit in >> the document >> >> The testament dative and inventory >> of the goods gear and debts of umq(acc)ll umquhil, one time, the late >> Robert Scott of Benholm within the >> parochine thereof and Shirrifedome of >> blank space) at the time of his decease >> which was apon the twenty seventh day >> of February Jajvij the v11 is 7 but jaj is a puzzle. I *think* what is intended is 1 thousand and possibly if you study it again, you may be able to read M, with a sprawling upright, a central curl or overlapped pair of shorter descnders, then an upright - if so, Mvii forty two, 1742. > and fourty two >> years faithfully made and given up by >> Mr David Scott treasurer to the bank >> of Scotland and Katherine Scott Relict >> of the deceast Phillip Fullerton of >> Thorntoun Brother and sister german meaning that they share both parents with him, not half siblings >> to the said defunct deceased >And executors >> dative qua nearest of Kine Decerned who are the next of kin decided to be his >> to him after due citation by publick >> edict after advertising for same > __ By Decreett of the Commissar >> of St Andrews datted the twenty eight >> day of Aprile Jajvij and fourty two >> years >> >> It is very well written and easy to read using modern spelling >> for most items and a script that is also modern by Old English >> standards but some capitals are a problem. The year has a C with >> a slash after it but I don't know how to print it. >> >> The other odd thing about this person is this document shows >> he has assets of £26000 Scots and debts of £22000 Scots a pound Scots was worth less than a pound sterling - about 15s, I think.It is still a great deal of money - could it be 26-00-00, or 00-0 meaning 26 pounds no shillings, no pence. -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

Chris, the word german after a relationship has a particular meaning. Brother or sister german = having both parents the same Cousin german = having both grandparents the same on one side Basically it means 'of the same parents' - to distinguish from step relations etc Lyn B

Hello All I have downloaded what I thought was supposed to be a will but is more an inventory of Bonds and debts. I had hoped it would be mine and nicely name all the children but not being a will it was too much to ask. Below is a transcript of the first part of the document and I would like some help to understand it. Is it saying that David Scott and Katherine Scott (married Phillip Fullerton in 1725)are his brother and sister. The word "german" is used quite a bit in the document The testament dative and inventory of the goods gear and debts of umq(acc)ll Robert Scott of Benholm within the parochine thereof and Shirrifedome of blank space) at the time of his decease which was apon the twenty seventh day of February Jajvij and fourty two years faithfully made and given up by Mr David Scott treasurer to the bank of Scotland and Katherine Scott Relict of the deceast Phillip Fullerton of Thorntoun Brother and sister german to the said defunct And executors dative qua nearest of Kine Decerned to him after due citation by publick edict __ By Decreett of the Commissar of St Andrews datted the twenty eight day of Aprile Jajvij and fourty two years It is very well written and easy to read using modern spelling for most items and a script that is also modern by Old English standards but some capitals are a problem. The year has a C with a slash after it but I don't know how to print it. The other odd thing about this person is this document shows he has assets of £26000 Scots and debts of £22000 Scots yet he was recorded as a smith when his daughter was baptised in 1697 (I have records to back up this relationship including her being mentioned in this document) regards Chris Bartlett regards Chris Bartlett

A quick reply Chris The first thing that strikes me is that there is the odd Latin word or phrase put in here and there and I am puzzled by some of the words you have written. Could you help? The first is Jajvii which, I assume, is part of the date but as you follow it with the words forty two years, I'm uncertain. Something that has just occured to me - is it that the deceased was forty two years old? The only problem with this is the last mention of these words which couldn't possibly apply to anyone's age. Can you make this any clearer? I don't have a problem with the word german as I think this is germain and just means belonging to or appertaining to. As you don't give a list of his inventory, i.e. his personal estate, not including his real estate, although there may be an estimation of it's value somewhere within these documents, I can't say that I would find a problem with his having a large amount of debts or outgoings. His spending habits, his business transactions etc may have demanded that, at certain times, he would have more debts than you may expect. On the other hand, you may possibly find somewhere that there is a list of his debtors, people that owe him money. I should think a certain amount would depend upon his financial setup. Depending upon his circumstances at the time of death, he may not have had a large net amount of money or estate. There are many imponderables here. Yet another possibility is that he may have already transferred some of his assets to his children, possibly in order to avoid tax. This is not a new thing. Hope you can answer some of these questions. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Bartlett" <woodcom@ihug.co.nz> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 1:22 AM Subject: [OEL] Dative and inventory of Robert Scott 1742 of Benholm > Hello All > > I have downloaded what I thought was supposed to be a will but > is more an inventory of Bonds and debts. I had hoped it would > be mine and nicely name all the children but not being a will > it was too much to ask. > > Below is a transcript of the first part of the document and I > would like some help to understand it. Is it saying that David > Scott and Katherine Scott (married Phillip Fullerton in 1725)are > his brother and sister. The word "german" is used quite a bit in > the document > > The testament dative and inventory > of the goods gear and debts of umq(acc)ll > Robert Scott of Benholm within the > parochine thereof and Shirrifedome of > blank space) at the time of his decease > which was apon the twenty seventh day > of February Jajvij and fourty two > years faithfully made and given up by > Mr David Scott treasurer to the bank > of Scotland and Katherine Scott Relict > of the deceast Phillip Fullerton of > Thorntoun Brother and sister german > to the said defunct And executors > dative qua nearest of Kine Decerned > to him after due citation by publick > edict __ By Decreett of the Commissar > of St Andrews datted the twenty eight > day of Aprile Jajvij and fourty two > years > > It is very well written and easy to read using modern spelling > for most items and a script that is also modern by Old English > standards but some capitals are a problem. The year has a C with > a slash after it but I don't know how to print it. > > The other odd thing about this person is this document shows > he has assets of £26000 Scots and debts of £22000 Scots yet > he was recorded as a smith when his daughter was baptised in > 1697 (I have records to back up this relationship including > her being mentioned in this document) > > regards > Chris Bartlett > > regards Chris Bartlett > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > THREADED archives for OLD-ENGLISH: > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > >

In message <1d3.2a325c23.2e6a89c2@aol.com>, GaryIvoDe@aol.com writes >What is meant by the Rising of Edgar the Aethling? Is it a title? Rebellion - though it was very small and inept and could scarcely be dignified with the decsription. Edgar Aetheling (Prince) was the Saxon heir to England, and had a feeble shot at displacing William the Conqueror - no chance. > -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

Which reminds me - strike a blow for correct English. If asked to sign a document, draw an elaborate gravestone with cross and steps. When finished, say casually, 'actually, I can write, if you'd wanted'. It's still legal. I knew a man who insisted his legal signature was a straight line; his bank manager argued a bit, but allowed it. John Barton ----- Original Message ----- From: <carolec@pronetisp.net> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2004 8:48 AM Subject: [OEL] Flying v > I have a signature from a 1684 church record that has what looks like a > flying v (a small v with wings extending from the top) between the given > and surnames. > > Do you think the man could not write and this was his mark? > > Thanks. > > Carole > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > THREADED archives for OLD-ENGLISH: > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > >

In message <4.2.0.58.20040903164619.009b9380@pop.pronetisp.net>, carolec@pronetisp.net writes >I have a signature from a 1684 church record that has what looks like a >flying v (a small v with wings extending from the top) between the given >and surnames. > >Do you think the man could not write and this was his mark? very likely - and was his name William, or his surname beginning with W ? This sounds like a stylised W, if I undserstand the description -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

What is meant by the Rising of Edgar the Aethling? Is it a title? Doesn't seem to be an uprising but it dates to 1069. Gary

I have a signature from a 1684 church record that has what looks like a flying v (a small v with wings extending from the top) between the given and surnames. Do you think the man could not write and this was his mark? Thanks. Carole

I was part of the procession - leading it! Kind Regards Roy & June Cox www.btinternet.com/~roy.cox/index.htm -----Original Message----- From: Ruth Barton [mailto:mrgjb@sover.net] Sent: 31 August 2004 06:49 To: OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [OEL] coronation on tellie Hi John, Nice to "meet" you. My son is also John BARTON. I watched the next coronation on the tellie. At least I think it was the next one, 1952, or was it 1953? Ruth At 10:20 AM +1200 8/31/04, John Barton wrote: Not that I'm getting long in the tooth (though I do recall >watching the coronation on tellie, in 1937). >John Barton -- Ruth Barton mrgjb@sover.net Dummerston, VT ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== THREADED archives for OLD-ENGLISH: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH

Sandra Lovegrove wrote: > I seem to recall that in my youth all these measures were tabulated > neatly on the shiny back covers of "Silvine" exercise books, along > with Apothecaries' measures (pennyweights, drachms, etc.) and some > strange mumbo-jumbo called "metric measure". My little tables book was priced 2d. It went from 1X1=1 to the various wine and ale measures in different counties, and the size of a barrel (not to be confused with a cask, which could be any size). I was intrigued by a note :"N.B. butchers don't accept farthings", wondering why, and what they would do if I insisted on enforcing my farthing collection as legal tender up to 5s. There were dire punishments if a baker sold a quartern loaf below a pound and a quarter; you could have an electric telegraph installed if the wife spent too long on the 'phone (dialling every letter with two wooden handles dampened enthusiasm); tricycles below 3cwt needed no road licence. My mother was warned as a child, working in her uncle's pub, not to confuse guineas and sovs, crowns and double-florins, and gilded Jubilee sixpences as half-sovs. Not that I'm getting long in the tooth (though I do recall watching the coronation on tellie, in 1937). John Barton

Chirurgeon is just an archaic word for surgeon - from old French 'cirurgeon'. Degrees such as BChir or Bch - Bachelor of Surgery and MCh or Mchir - Master of Surgery and MChD - Master of Dental Surgery were still around not that long ago. I believe that degrees from some universities still have this appellation. Peter Amsden, Argyll, Scotland Researching Amsden World Wide Outline History: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~amsden Amsden Forum: http://www.genforum.com/amsden Books I have written: http://www.btinternet.com/~amsden AllExperts: http://www.allexperts.com/displayExpert.asp?Expert=38044 Never dump originals - they may be all that is left after the computer age.

In message <002e01c48edf$8cda8980$0200a8c0@bob>, John Barton <bartonlander@free.net.nz> writes >Sandra Lovegrove wrote: > >> I seem to recall that in my youth all these measures were tabulated >> neatly on the shiny back covers of "Silvine" exercise books, along >> with Apothecaries' measures (pennyweights, drachms, etc.) and some >> strange mumbo-jumbo called "metric measure". >My little tables book was priced 2d. It went from 1X1=1 to the various wine >and ale measures in different counties, and the size of a barrel (not to be >confused with a cask, which could be any size). I was intrigued by a note >:"N.B. butchers don't accept farthings", wondering why, and what they would >do if I insisted on enforcing my farthing collection as legal tender up to >5s. legally, they had to - it was the smallest legal tender coin. And in the days when nonconformists HAD to marry in Church, there is a newspaper piece showing that the local ironmonger did so, but paid the fee in farthings, and for good measure, scattered them on the church floor, so the clerk and clergyman had to scrabble round for them. -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

Hi John, Nice to "meet" you. My son is also John BARTON. I watched the next coronation on the tellie. At least I think it was the next one, 1952, or was it 1953? Ruth At 10:20 AM +1200 8/31/04, John Barton wrote: Not that I'm getting long in the tooth (though I do recall >watching the coronation on tellie, in 1937). >John Barton -- Ruth Barton mrgjb@sover.net Dummerston, VT

I'd like help again with Latin in a Probate of 1723, which as near as I can get is: Mariam Tompkinson poce Wolstanton in Com Staff solutem Winùm[?] Wood poce Leek in C[b?]ondrices[?]Yeom[/} Mary was the sister of the deceased, Matthew Tompkinson. Don Tomkinson

In message <000001c48e39$296791f0$6501a8c0@D30XZM21>, Art & Hanna <artandhanna@shaw.ca> writes > >In a very long but interesting Will, that I just received from the PRO and >have transcribed, I found an abbreviated word in one sentence. I can't >figure out what it stands for and I am quite sure I transcribed it >correctly. Here is the sentence: ". Mungo Langcake, in his Last Will, dated >9 March, 1770, after "several particular legacies", left everything to his >"tender and affectionate mother and hoped and was inclined to think that the >interest on the sum left would be sufficient to maintain her agreeable to >her wishes if so beg'd". is it actually beq'd, bequeathed. ? In other words, he thinks it will work if he does it that way. It is odd to find an abbreviation in the body of a will, though, unless he wrote it himself, in which case, it was up to him. The risk here is that particular legacies have to be paid first, so if there is a delay between making the will and dying allows time for his financial circumstances to change, the balance may be wrong and Mum may be left short. In those circumstances, he might have said 'if so be it.', but in 1770 beyt for be it doesn't seem right/ -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society