Just a bit of fun.... Regarding << Tailbois / Sicklemore >> could there be any connection with a sycamore being a very, very tall tree ... SANDRA LOVEGROVE Researching LOVEGROVEs in all places and at all times. Please do visit the LOVEGROVE Information Centre on http://www.lovegrove.org.uk

Thanks for the various responses to my "Tallow chandler" enquiry. It seems this was more or less what I had imagined, viz. a general sort of dealer. However [ big "however"? ] when described thus on his 1845 marriage certificate, both this young chap and his bride were living in Regent Street, central London which presumably then as now was very upmarket. I suppose there may have been small shops in the backstreets. SANDRA LOVEGROVE Researching LOVEGROVEs in all places and at all times. Please do visit the LOVEGROVE Information Centre on http://www.lovegrove.org.uk

Here we call that a "General Store." Ruth At 1:07 AM +0100 9/16/04, Eve McLaughlin wrote: >In message <00e701c49a2f$46f331a0$efcfae51@lovegrove>, Sandra Lovegrove ><lovegrove@one-name.org> writes >>A young man marrying in 1845 was described as a "tallow chandler". >>Presumably at that date such a business would not just deal in tallow. >>Any ideas about what else? >any sort of household supplies, kindling, matches, colza oil, rat >poison, tarred paper - including even food in small quanitites. Mainly >oddments like small cheap pots and pans and buckets -think ironmonger at >the cheap end of the market > >-- >Eve McLaughlin -- Ruth Barton mrgjb@sover.net Dummerston, VT

In message <00e701c49a2f$46f331a0$efcfae51@lovegrove>, Sandra Lovegrove <lovegrove@one-name.org> writes >A young man marrying in 1845 was described as a "tallow chandler". >Presumably at that date such a business would not just deal in tallow. >Any ideas about what else? any sort of household supplies, kindling, matches, colza oil, rat poison, tarred paper - including even food in small quanitites. Mainly oddments like small cheap pots and pans and buckets -think ironmonger at the cheap end of the market -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

Ruth Barton wrote: >Nothing like the wives of today. I wonder what the husband's vows were? Ruth > > > Hi Ruth This is what was sent to me: {Groom} ‘Ich, take the to my weddid wyf, to haven and to holden, for fayrer, for fouler, for bettur, for wors, for richer, for porer, in seknesse and in helthe, fro, thys tyme forward, til dethe us departe, if holichurche will it orden: and therto I pliht the my treuthe.’ With this ring I the wedde, and this gold and selver I the yeve, and with my bodi I the worschepe, and with all my worldy catel I the honour.’ {Bride} ‘Iche, take the to my weddid husband, to haven and to holden, for fayrer, for fouler, for bettur, for wors, for richer, for porer, in seknesse and in helthe, to be bondlich and buxom in bed and at burde, tyl dethe us departe.’ Annette

The tallow chandler on my tree spent most of his time selling tallow to boot makers who used it to soften and waterproof leather. Adrian norman.lee1 wrote: >It probably doesn't mean that he specialised in candles either and was >probably a general grocer and provisions provider, e.g. a ships chandler. > > > >

Probably seemingly innocent and pleasant towards his wife but, in practice, if she didn't fulfil hers she would be denegrated and have to pay for her ommissions whereas he would get away with almost anything he liked. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ruth Barton" <mrgjb@sover.net> To: "norman.lee1" <norman.lee1@virgin.net>; <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2004 4:11 PM Subject: Re: [OEL] 14th century wedding vowels > Nothing like the wives of today. I wonder what the husband's vows were? Ruth > > > > > At 9:02 AM +0100 9/14/04, norman.lee1 wrote: > >Had another thought about 'burde'. I think it would mean board which was the > >word for table. So this would mean that she promised to behave herself well > >in bed, be obedient to her husband's wishes and desires and also to be > >obedient when serving at the table and doing other housewifely things. > > > >Audrey > -- > Ruth Barton > mrgjb@sover.net > Dummerston, VT >

Does anyone know what sperkulers are? Since the Bergen Co. Dutch descendants were still speaking Dutch in the early 1800's I wonder if it is a Dutch word. Ree

After reading the whole thing it appears that he was pledging himself body,soul and all his worldly goods and chattels. How easy was it for either party to get out of a marriage in 14th century if they weren't royalty? Ruth At 10:14 PM +0100 9/14/04, norman.lee1 wrote: >Probably seemingly innocent and pleasant towards his wife but, in practice, >if she didn't fulfil hers she would be denegrated and have to pay for her >ommissions whereas he would get away with almost anything he liked. > >Audrey -- Ruth Barton mrgjb@sover.net Dummerston, VT

Annette, Thanks, that's not that much different than the vows when I married for the man but I certainly did not vow to be "bondlich and buxom." Ruth At 9:42 AM +1200 9/15/04, Annette Mclean wrote: >Ruth Barton wrote: > >>Nothing like the wives of today. I wonder what the husband's vows were? >>Ruth >> >> >> >Hi Ruth >This is what was sent to me: >{Groom} >'Ich, take the to my weddid wyf, to haven and to holden, for fayrer, for >fouler, for bettur, for wors, for richer, for porer, in seknesse and in >helthe, fro, thys tyme forward, til dethe us departe, if holichurche >will it orden: and therto I pliht the my treuthe.' > >With this ring I the wedde, and this gold and selver I the yeve, and >with my bodi I the worschepe, and with all my worldy catel I the honour.' > >{Bride} >'Iche, take the to my weddid husband, to haven and to holden, for >fayrer, for fouler, for bettur, for wors, for richer, for porer, in >seknesse and in helthe, to be bondlich and buxom in bed and at burde, >tyl dethe us departe.' > >Annette -- Ruth Barton mrgjb@sover.net Dummerston, VT

Hi Sandra, A tallow chandler is a maker and seller of candles. A sewer was "an attendant at a meal who superintended the arrangement of the table, the seating of the guests, and the tasting and serving of the dishes. Down to the 15th c. it was the designation of an officer of the Royal Household; it survived somewhat later as the title of a ceremonial office at coronations." [OED] Latin - assedere, OF asseoir, = to cause to sit, to seat. Cheers, Liz in Melbourne Quoting Sandra Lovegrove <lovegrove@one-name.org>: > A young man marrying in 1845 was described as a "tallow chandler". > Presumably at that date such a business would not just deal in tallow. > Any ideas about what else? > > N.B: He later became a servant at Eton College and was several times > described as a "sewer man". Apparently this did not mean a staff > plumber, but a kind of head waiter responsible for service at table. > > SANDRA LOVEGROVE > > Researching LOVEGROVEs in all places and at all times. > Please do visit the LOVEGROVE Information Centre on > http://www.lovegrove.org.uk > > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > To contact the list administrator: > OLD-ENGLISH-admin@rootsweb.com > >

It probably doesn't mean that he specialised in candles either and was probably a general grocer and provisions provider, e.g. a ships chandler. (I have to say that he sounds a bit like an odd job man and would be very, very useful in this day and age.) Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sandra Lovegrove" <lovegrove@one-name.org> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2004 8:46 AM Subject: [OEL] tallow chandler > A young man marrying in 1845 was described as a "tallow chandler". > Presumably at that date such a business would not just deal in tallow. > Any ideas about what else? > > N.B: He later became a servant at Eton College and was several times > described as a "sewer man". Apparently this did not mean a staff > plumber, but a kind of head waiter responsible for service at table. > > SANDRA LOVEGROVE > > Researching LOVEGROVEs in all places and at all times. > Please do visit the LOVEGROVE Information Centre on > http://www.lovegrove.org.uk > > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > To contact the list administrator: > OLD-ENGLISH-admin@rootsweb.com > >

Had another thought about 'burde'. I think it would mean board which was the word for table. So this would mean that she promised to behave herself well in bed, be obedient to her husband's wishes and desires and also to be obedient when serving at the table and doing other housewifely things. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Annette Mclean" <dandamclean@xtra.co.nz> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 5:30 AM Subject: [OEL] 14th century wedding vowels > Hi folks, a friend sent me a copy of some 14th century wedding vowels as > he knew my son was getting married soon. > This is the brides vowels. I understand most of it but wonder what these > words meant then: > bondlich, buxom, and burde > > ‘Iche, take the to my weddid husband, to haven and to holden, for > fayrer, for fouler, for better, for wors, for richer, for porer, in > seknesse and in helthe, to be bondlich and buxom in bed and at burde, > tyl dethe us departe.’ > > Thanks in advance > > Annette > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > OLD-ENGLISH Web Page > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > >

A young man marrying in 1845 was described as a "tallow chandler". Presumably at that date such a business would not just deal in tallow. Any ideas about what else? N.B: He later became a servant at Eton College and was several times described as a "sewer man". Apparently this did not mean a staff plumber, but a kind of head waiter responsible for service at table. SANDRA LOVEGROVE Researching LOVEGROVEs in all places and at all times. Please do visit the LOVEGROVE Information Centre on http://www.lovegrove.org.uk

Nothing like the wives of today. I wonder what the husband's vows were? Ruth At 9:02 AM +0100 9/14/04, norman.lee1 wrote: >Had another thought about 'burde'. I think it would mean board which was the >word for table. So this would mean that she promised to behave herself well >in bed, be obedient to her husband's wishes and desires and also to be >obedient when serving at the table and doing other housewifely things. > >Audrey -- Ruth Barton mrgjb@sover.net Dummerston, VT

Buxom is plump and comely but the others I wouldn't know about. Occasionally the German dictionary can help with some of these early English words as some have German roots - iche, that you quote at the beginning is ich meaning I. Bondlich sounds like it could mean obedient. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Annette Mclean" <dandamclean@xtra.co.nz> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 5:30 AM Subject: [OEL] 14th century wedding vowels > Hi folks, a friend sent me a copy of some 14th century wedding vowels as > he knew my son was getting married soon. > This is the brides vowels. I understand most of it but wonder what these > words meant then: > bondlich, buxom, and burde > > ‘Iche, take the to my weddid husband, to haven and to holden, for > fayrer, for fouler, for better, for wors, for richer, for porer, in > seknesse and in helthe, to be bondlich and buxom in bed and at burde, > tyl dethe us departe.’ > > Thanks in advance > > Annette > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > OLD-ENGLISH Web Page > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > >

Hi Gary I'm afraid I don't get most of this. It looks like a selection of Quarter Sessions minutes but jumps from year to year with no apparent aim in view. The sources quoted at the end are James I State Papers but the dates quoted in the entries are from Charles II after the Restoration, around 60 years afterwards. Her late majesty was presumably Queen Elizabeth I and this would make good sense if it were 1606 but leaves me wondering about 1666. It all makes it very difficult to imagine what they are talking about, for me that is. Perhaps there are more knowledgeable people around on the list who can explain it to me. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: <GaryIvoDe@aol.com> To: <OLD-ENGLISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 4:47 AM Subject: [OEL] re Previous Entry > Regarding the Durham entry, can someone tell me what it means? > A priest has been arrested and questioned. Who is Tailbois? Is > there any way to tell the outcome of these proceedings? It is > interesting that people named Tailbois also went by the name > of Sicklemore both in England and Virginia. > > Gary > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > OLD-ENGLISH Web Page > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > >

In message <1ef.2a8d07e4.2e76726b@aol.com>, GaryIvoDe@aol.com writes >Regarding the Durham entry, can someone tell me what it means? >A priest has been arrested and questioned. Who is Tailbois? the servant (man) of (Lord) Percy- Tailbois means Woodcutter, yet it was an old Norman gentry name, in the past. The attack is on the Catholics - a priest, Sicklemore, is arreated and charged with telling lies, which could just mean preaching Catholic doctrine. Percy (family name of the Duke of Northumberland) was a Catholic nobleman, so any charge against him or his servant/s would be a useful stick to beat him with. > Is >there any way to tell the outcome of these proceedings? Follow through in same book? -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

>Hi folks, a friend sent me a copy of some 14th century wedding vowels as >he knew my son was getting married soon. >This is the brides vowels. I understand most of it but wonder what these >words meant then: >bondlich, servile, like a slave > buxom, lusty, energetic >and burde board, table > >‘Iche, take the to my weddid husband, to haven and to holden, for >fayrer, for fouler, for better, for wors, for richer, for porer, in >seknesse and in helthe, to be bondlich and buxom in bed and at burde, >tyl dethe us departe.’ > -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

Hi folks, a friend sent me a copy of some 14th century wedding vowels as he knew my son was getting married soon. This is the brides vowels. I understand most of it but wonder what these words meant then: bondlich, buxom, and burde ‘Iche, take the to my weddid husband, to haven and to holden, for fayrer, for fouler, for better, for wors, for richer, for porer, in seknesse and in helthe, to be bondlich and buxom in bed and at burde, tyl dethe us departe.’ Thanks in advance Annette