Hello, Thanks for your suggestions. What puzzled me is why Phineas should have chosen not to baptise his first two sons, even though he paid for their apprenticeship. I was wondering if there might be a reason for this -- other than lack of money or nonconformism, which seem not to be in play here. David: re. missing baptisms, bear in mind that we only have the index to the registers. There has been very little -- perhaps suspiciously little -- research access to the record archive, so it is not clear how accurate the index is. There are certainly numerous examples of misspellings. Also, birth registration only became compulslory after 1875. Prior to that it was the responsibility of registrars to gather together the records. Michael -----Original Message----- From: Mr Chillistone [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: 01 August 2006 00:39 To: Michael Scott; [email protected] Subject: Re: [OEL] missing baptisms Michael, I can't help with the missing baptisms, but has anyone got any thoughts on why the births of 5 children to a couple back down my family tree appear in the parish register, but are completely absent from the national births, marriages and deaths records? Kind regards, David Chillistone ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Scott" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 5:49 PM Subject: [OEL] missing baptisms > Hello, > > I've found a puzzling case of a late c18 Whitechapel family who did not > baptise their first two children. I have quite a lot of background > information about them and can find no obvious explanation. I wonder if > anyone has further ideas? > > Phineas Johnson and Mary Taylor married 1772 and lived on White Lyon Street > in Whitechapel (the South end of today's Leman Street). The baptisms of nine > of their children are registered at St Mary Whitechapel between 1777 and > 1792. However, there are (at least) two more: > > (1) Henry George Johnson, apprenticed a Painter Stainer and baptised in his > 40s at St Mary Lambeth (giving his date of birth 1773) > (2) James Taylor Johnson, apprenticed a Stationer in 1790. Presumably born > 1776 or earlier. > > Two explanations occurred to me, but neither seems probable: > > I wondered if Phineas might be a nonconformist -- certainly a popular option > in Whitechapel at this time. But I've found no evidence for this. He was > baptised himself, as were all his brothers and sisters, at St Mary > Whitechapel and he married at St John Wapping. > > Also, Phineas appears to have been financially ok for most of his life, if > not particularly wealthy. He was apprenticed a Painter Stainer, became free > of the City and worked as an oilman or colourman. He paid taxes on the > property in White Lyon St until his death in 1804; he also inherited > property in Hendon which he sold in the 1780s. None of the parish records > identify him as poor. > > thanks, > > Michael > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.4/399 - Release Date: 25/07/2006 > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > OLD-ENGLISH Web Page > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/404 - Release Date: 31/07/06 > > -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/403 - Release Date: 28/07/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/403 - Release Date: 28/07/2006

Just saying a big thanks for all your informative replies. Adrian Verry

Now I must reveal my considerable ignorance of things English. What is the difference between a Cathedral and a church? I thought a cathedral was just a big church but it appears that there is more to it. Thanks, Ruth At 11:22 PM +0100 7/30/06, Eve McLaughlin wrote: >In many cases, people went into or worked in the county town and married >there - and the 'parish' church just happened to be a Cathedral. In some >places (Manchester, Sheffield, Birmingham etc) the cathedral church was >renowned for doing quickie marriages, no questions asked. > The basic fee would be the same - if you wanted bells, choir, etc, you >paid more, (as you did in any parish church), but these were not >compulsory. > > >-- >Eve McLaughlin -- Ruth Barton [email protected] Dummerston, VT

John - the WHOLE of Manchester is being turned into a cafe bar! And some of the them have little tables and chairs on the pavement IN DEANSGATE so you cant walk down the pavement! Liz - who lives in Manchester > >Oh don't get me started about Castlefields, quite possibly one of the most >important industrial heritage sites in the world and it's been turned into >a cafe bar! > >John

>Dear Linda > >Manchester was the commercial center serving "King Cotton" and many of the > >mills in townships around had warehouses in Manchester as well as mills in > And don't forget that we were world class engineers as well. Whitworth, Beyer, Garret, Mather & Platt, all names that rang around the world. John ___________________________________________________________ Tiscali Broadband from 14.99 with free setup! http://www.tiscali.co.uk/products/broadband/

there are the Castle Field's excavations and so on, and so on. > >Audrey Oh don't get me started about Castlefields, quite possibly one of the most important industrial heritage sites in the world and it's been turned into a cafe bar! John ___________________________________________________________ Tiscali Broadband from 14.99 with free setup! http://www.tiscali.co.uk/products/broadband/

Hi, l am new to this list so hello to everyone. I have a will dated 1626 which relates to a Thomas Salisbury from Great Barton in Suffolk and although l have managed to make out some sections there are large gaps and wondered if anyone on the list could possibly translate it for me? l will gladly send a copy to anyone interested. Kind Regards Sarah

Sorry for the confusion, John. I sometimes think that's my role in life. Thank you too Eve and others for putting me right.. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 12:11 AM Subject: Re: [OEL] MARIAGE FEES CATHEDRALS > No, but before it was raised to cathedral status it was the mother parish > church, to be precise the collegiate and parish church. > It tends to confuse people because although it did not become a cathedral > until 1837 the good old LDS describe it as cathedral for it's whole > existance. > But the constant factor is it's being the Parish Church, it didn't loose > this status when it became Cathedral, it is to this date the parish > church. > Well, that message has confused me, I wonder if any body can explain it to > me :-) > > >>Manchester was not always a cathedral, it was a collegiate church. I'm not >> >>sure exactly when it became a cathedral but have a feeling it was sometime >> >>during the 19th century. As such, it probably couldn't have exacted the > >>extra tax from other churches round about. >> >>Audrey >> > > ___________________________________________________________ > > Tiscali Broadband from 14.99 with free setup! > http://www.tiscali.co.uk/products/broadband/ > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > SEARCHABLE archives for OLD-ENGLISH: > http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=OLD-ENGLISH > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/403 - Release Date: 28/07/2006 > >

Hi Liz Sinclair's Oyster Bar was moved twice. It hadn't been near Marks & Spencer long before the bomb did its worst. It's a miracle that it survived at all. You are right in that there is so much to see and do in Manchester, both for the historian and in other ways. Don't forget the Central Reference Library that is situated in St. Peter's Square, site of the Peterloo Massacre. This library has a very good local history section and Chetham's Library also has many useful original documents.. For anyone with an interest in the industrial revolution, Manchester is extremely important. Then there are the Castle Field's excavations and so on, and so on. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Liz Parkinson" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 4:05 AM Subject: Re: [OEL] MARIAGE FEES CATHEDRALS > It certainly was expanding rapidly, with mills and factories, and there > was plenty of work for people. Poor people from the countryside flocked > into cities generally, and certainly into thriving ones like Manchester. > > Nowadays the 19C mills are mostly luxury apartments, although part of the > medieval city is still there, notably Sinclairs Oyster Bar. I believe it > had to be moved after the IRA bomb, but it is still there and thriving, > just of Exchange Square. The Old Printworks is now an entertainment and > leisure complex. The whole city has a pleasant cosmopolitan feel to it. > > It is worth a visit for any historian, but I would recommend waiting until > the Deansgate branch of John Rylands Library reopens after refurbishment - > sometime later this year I think. It is a magnificent library with some > wonderful documents in it. To look at old or rare documents you need a > letter of introduction tho, and certainly in the past they preferred to > know you were coming and what you wanted to look at if it was something > out of the ordinary. > > The records of Lyme Hall are there, and make fascinating reading, I did > some work on them a while back. The Hall itself holds them too and you > can look there normally, but it happened to be in the middle of the Foot > and Mouth outbreak, so I couldnt go onto Lyme Park. Lyme Hall, just > outside Manchester, was used as Pemberley in the TV adaptation of Pride > and Prejudice - THAT lake is there. > > Sorry I have rambled > > Liz - who lives just outside Manchester > > >> >>Eve - I have ancestors who went to Manchester in that time period. Do you >>mind if I ask why people were moving there? Linda >> >>Eve McLaughlin <[email protected]> wrote: In the early C19, >>Manchester was expanding rapidly, >>-- >> >> >> >> >> >>--------------------------------- >>Do you Yahoo!? >> Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. >> >> >>==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== >>OLD-ENGLISH Web Page >>http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ >> > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > Going away for a while? > Don't forget to UNSUBSCRIBE! > [email protected] > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/403 - Release Date: 28/07/2006 > >

Dear Linda Manchester was the commercial center serving "King Cotton" and many of the mills in townships around had warehouses in Manchester as well as mills in their own towns. Besides these, Manchester had its own mills. Cotton was very important in the 19th century and there was a saying "England's bread hangs by Lancashire's thread" and Manchester was the centre of this activity. Even into the 1970s there were warehouses bordering Piccadilly, Manchester's main square. The largest of these were then developed into restaurants and hotels. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "L B Hansen" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 2:14 AM Subject: Re: [OEL] MARIAGE FEES CATHEDRALS > Eve - I have ancestors who went to Manchester in that time period. Do you > mind if I ask why people were moving there? Linda > > Eve McLaughlin <[email protected]> wrote: In the early C19, > Manchester was expanding rapidly, > -- > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > OLD-ENGLISH Web Page > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/403 - Release Date: 28/07/2006 > >

Thanks everyone - for the info on Manchester. Maybe someday I will be able to cross the water and see it myself. : ) It sounds fascinating. Linda Liz Parkinson <[email protected]> wrote: John - the WHOLE of Manchester is being turned into a cafe bar! And some of the them have little tables and chairs on the pavement IN DEANSGATE so you cant walk down the pavement! Liz - who lives in Manchester > >Oh don't get me started about Castlefields, quite possibly one of the most >important industrial heritage sites in the world and it's been turned into >a cafe bar! > >John ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== To UNSUBSCRIBE from list mode -- Send the one word UNSUBSCRIBE to [email protected] --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.

It certainly was expanding rapidly, with mills and factories, and there was plenty of work for people. Poor people from the countryside flocked into cities generally, and certainly into thriving ones like Manchester. Nowadays the 19C mills are mostly luxury apartments, although part of the medieval city is still there, notably Sinclairs Oyster Bar. I believe it had to be moved after the IRA bomb, but it is still there and thriving, just of Exchange Square. The Old Printworks is now an entertainment and leisure complex. The whole city has a pleasant cosmopolitan feel to it. It is worth a visit for any historian, but I would recommend waiting until the Deansgate branch of John Rylands Library reopens after refurbishment - sometime later this year I think. It is a magnificent library with some wonderful documents in it. To look at old or rare documents you need a letter of introduction tho, and certainly in the past they preferred to know you were coming and what you wanted to look at if it was something out of the ordinary. The records of Lyme Hall are there, and make fascinating reading, I did some work on them a while back. The Hall itself holds them too and you can look there normally, but it happened to be in the middle of the Foot and Mouth outbreak, so I couldnt go onto Lyme Park. Lyme Hall, just outside Manchester, was used as Pemberley in the TV adaptation of Pride and Prejudice - THAT lake is there. Sorry I have rambled Liz - who lives just outside Manchester > >Eve - I have ancestors who went to Manchester in that time period. Do you >mind if I ask why people were moving there? Linda > >Eve McLaughlin <[email protected]> wrote: In the early C19, >Manchester was expanding rapidly, >-- > > > > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? > Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. > > >==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== >OLD-ENGLISH Web Page >http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ >

Thanks Eve, that is more or less what I was trying to say, John >In the early C19, Manchester was expanding rapidly, and the subordinate >hamlets (suburbs as they became) only had chapels, tied to the parish >church, like Rusholme, Hulme etc. Presumably they counted as chapels of >ease and the parish church exacted fees from users. ___________________________________________________________ Tiscali Broadband from 14.99 with free setup! http://www.tiscali.co.uk/products/broadband/

In message <[email protected]>, Norman Lee <[email protected]> writes >Manchester was not always a cathedral, it was a collegiate church. I'm not >sure exactly when it became a cathedral but have a feeling it was sometime >during the 19th century. As such, it probably couldn't have exacted the >extra tax from other churches round about. In the early C19, Manchester was expanding rapidly, and the subordinate hamlets (suburbs as they became) only had chapels, tied to the parish church, like Rusholme, Hulme etc. Presumably they counted as chapels of ease and the parish church exacted fees from users. > -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

No, but before it was raised to cathedral status it was the mother parish church, to be precise the collegiate and parish church. It tends to confuse people because although it did not become a cathedral until 1837 the good old LDS describe it as cathedral for it's whole existance. But the constant factor is it's being the Parish Church, it didn't loose this status when it became Cathedral, it is to this date the parish church. Well, that message has confused me, I wonder if any body can explain it to me :-) >Manchester was not always a cathedral, it was a collegiate church. I'm not > >sure exactly when it became a cathedral but have a feeling it was sometime > >during the 19th century. As such, it probably couldn't have exacted the >extra tax from other churches round about. > >Audrey > ___________________________________________________________ Tiscali Broadband from 14.99 with free setup! http://www.tiscali.co.uk/products/broadband/

Manchester was not always a cathedral, it was a collegiate church. I'm not sure exactly when it became a cathedral but have a feeling it was sometime during the 19th century. As such, it probably couldn't have exacted the extra tax from other churches round about. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "John" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 11:41 PM Subject: Re: [OEL] MARIAGE FEES CATHEDRALS > At 23:22 30/07/2006, Eve McLaughlin wrote: > >>In many cases, people went into or worked in the county town and married >>there - and the 'parish' church just happened to be a Cathedral. In some >>places (Manchester, Sheffield, Birmingham etc) the cathedral church was >>renowned for doing quickie marriages, no questions asked. >> The basic fee would be the same - if you wanted bells, choir, etc, you >>paid more, (as you did in any parish church), but these were not >>compulsory. > > Certainly in Manchester it was actually more expensive NOT to get married > in the Cathedral as you paid fees at the church of your choice but still > paid fees to the Cathedral, the status symbol was not to have a Cathedral > wedding. > > John > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > THREADED archives for OLD-ENGLISH: > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/403 - Release Date: 28/07/2006 > >

Eve - I have ancestors who went to Manchester in that time period. Do you mind if I ask why people were moving there? Linda Eve McLaughlin <[email protected]> wrote: In the early C19, Manchester was expanding rapidly, -- --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.

At 23:22 30/07/2006, Eve McLaughlin wrote: >In many cases, people went into or worked in the county town and married >there - and the 'parish' church just happened to be a Cathedral. In some >places (Manchester, Sheffield, Birmingham etc) the cathedral church was >renowned for doing quickie marriages, no questions asked. > The basic fee would be the same - if you wanted bells, choir, etc, you >paid more, (as you did in any parish church), but these were not >compulsory. Certainly in Manchester it was actually more expensive NOT to get married in the Cathedral as you paid fees at the church of your choice but still paid fees to the Cathedral, the status symbol was not to have a Cathedral wedding. John

In message <[email protected]>, maggie and adrian <[email protected]> writes >Apologies if this is off topic. Am researching a Herefordshire family, >17th C who were leaseholders and renters. Two generations married in >Hereford Cathedral. From other documents they were not wealthy, just >your ordinary country yokels. My question - what was the difference in >fees for a cathedral wedding and a rural parish wedding at this period? >I am trying to firm up on who paid the (presumably) higher fees -in this >case the in-laws perhaps. I presume many Cathedral weddings were a >matter of "status"? Appreciate your comments. In many cases, people went into or worked in the county town and married there - and the 'parish' church just happened to be a Cathedral. In some places (Manchester, Sheffield, Birmingham etc) the cathedral church was renowned for doing quickie marriages, no questions asked. The basic fee would be the same - if you wanted bells, choir, etc, you paid more, (as you did in any parish church), but these were not compulsory. -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

Apologies if this is off topic. Am researching a Herefordshire family, 17th C who were leaseholders and renters. Two generations married in Hereford Cathedral. From other documents they were not wealthy, just your ordinary country yokels. My question - what was the difference in fees for a cathedral wedding and a rural parish wedding at this period? I am trying to firm up on who paid the (presumably) higher fees -in this case the in-laws perhaps. I presume many Cathedral weddings were a matter of "status"? Appreciate your comments. Adrtian