Audrey: > I have always found that amazing as I can't imagine so many paupers being > produced by such a rural place as the Isle of Skye. It's a common misconception that the poor were in the towns. I think this derives from all the stories from Victorian times (Charles Dickens, etc) about how hideous the towns were (which they were by today's standards). But at the time of the industrial revolution people flocked from the countryside to the towns. Why? Because they were better off. The countryside wasn't idyllic; it was a place of seasonal work and low wages, particularly after enclosure in England. For all the Satanic mills and dangerous coalmines, people in the towns had regular work, 52 weeks a year, at wages far above those in the countryside. Best wishes Paul Prescott

OK Ruth you're welcome - it seems from the barrage I've been getting that some details aren't quite right, (Church of Scotland etc) but it's what I remember from schooldays and a trip to Chester Cathedral. .... Elizabeth Thanks Elizabeth. Ruth

There are definitely copies of certificates kept at local registry offices. I've had copies made by them sent to me. These are certificates that have not made it to the registers at the Family Records Office. Although copies of all registered births, marriages and deaths were supposed to be sent to the Central Registry, this was not always the case and it pays to make enquiries at a local office, providing you have a close date and reasonably accurate details of the person for whose certificate you are requesting. They will not search for you, or at least not more that a couple or so quarters. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Scott" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 9:48 PM Subject: RE: [OEL] missing baptisms > >>> >>>David: re. missing baptisms, bear in mind that we only have the index to > the >>>registers. >> >>I am not sure what this means - civil registers of birth, or parish etc >>registers of baptisms - see below. > > > > This was a response to David's earlier email, not adding to what I was > saying about baptisms. > > I meant that we do not have direct access to the certificate collection, > only to the catalogues at the FRC or online indexes. It's not clear how > accurately the latter describe the collection. > > > Michael > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/403 - Release Date: 28/07/2006 > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > To UNSUBSCRIBE from list mode -- > Send the one word UNSUBSCRIBE to > [email protected] > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/403 - Release Date: 28/07/2006 > >

The two Archbishops are in charge of the whole country which is divided into two provinces, that of Canterbury and the other of York. Canterbury is the senior province, hence the Archbishop of Canterbury is the head of Church of England, under the King/Queen who is the supreme head, and the Archbishop of York is the next in seniority to the Archbishop of Canterbury. He often succeeds to the post at Canterbury when this Archbishop retires. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Elizabeth Atherton" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 3:11 PM Subject: [OEL] Cathdrals > OK - in the UK we have the Church of England, Church of Wales, Church of > Scotland, all members of the Anglican church. Each region is divided into > areas called dioceses. Each diocese has a bishop. The bishop sits in the > cathedral which is the principal or mother church of the diocese. He sits > on > the bishop's or episcopal throne. Cathedral is from the Latin cathedra > meaning chair. There are also two Archbishops, the senior in the south at > Canterbury and the junior in the north at York. > > A collegiate church is an important church served by a college of canons > (priests) not a single priest & doesn't have a bishop. > > ... Elizabeth > > > Now I must reveal my considerable ignorance of things English. What is the > difference between a Cathedral and a church? I thought a cathedral was > just a big church but it appears that there is more to it. Thanks, Ruth > > > And from an earlier reply: --- it was the mother parish church, to be > precise the collegiate and parish church. > > What exactly is or was a collegiate church. The dictionary definitions are > not much help. > My g grandfather was the proprietor of a collegiate school. How does this > differ from an ordinary school? > Cheers, > Graham > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > OLD-ENGLISH Web Page > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/403 - Release Date: 28/07/2006 > >

Yes, the funny part about that is that our local big cotton mill employed pauper apprentices from as far apart as London and the Isle of Skye. I have always found that amazing as I can't imagine so many paupers being produced by such a rural place as the Isle of Skye. Although our mill had a very good reputation for the treatment of it's apprentices, there were some infamous mills around that used these poor children and expended them like pieces of machinery to be discarded when of no more use. Taddington parish refused to take any more paupers cast adrift from the Calver Mill. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eve McLaughlin" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 12:56 PM Subject: Re: [OEL] missing baptisms > In message <[email protected]>, > Michael Scott <[email protected]> writes >>Hello, >> >>Thanks for your suggestions. What puzzled me is why Phineas should have >>chosen not to baptise his first two sons, even though he paid for their >>apprenticeship. I was wondering if there might be a reason for this -- >>other >>than lack of money or nonconformism, which seem not to be in play here. >> >>David: re. missing baptisms, bear in mind that we only have the index to >>the >>registers. > > I am not sure what this means - civil registers of birth, or parish etc > registers of baptisms - see below. > >> There has been very little -- perhaps suspiciously little -- >>research access to the record archive, so it is not clear how accurate the >>index is. There are certainly numerous examples of misspellings. >>Also, birth registration only became compulslory after 1875. Prior to that >>it was the responsibility of registrars to gather together the records. > > There is no real link between baptisms and registration of births. > Baptisms were not compulsory (after about 1720, and even then the rules > were widely ignored); if they did happen, they could take place in any > church or chapel the parents wished to use at the time, and may not be > consistently in any one denomination. A lot of people experimented with > various chapels, not all of whose registers survive. > Civil Registration, which only started in 1837, had nothing to do with > the church at all, was supposed to be compulsory from then, but the > observamce was up to the registrar and not the parent, with no > enforcement by fines till 1875, as you say. So it is not at all > suyrprising to find, in the early days, baptism without registration or > registration without baptism. > There were only a few circumstances which involved producing evidence > of date of birth or parentage, and the reasons for these tended top > arise years after the event. Mostly, they could be dealt with by the > swearing of an affidavit by the parents or siblings or anyone who could > provide personal knowledge of the birth/parents, as needed. >> > > > > > -- > Eve McLaughlin > > Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians > Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > OLD-ENGLISH Web Page > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/403 - Release Date: 28/07/2006 > >

>> >>David: re. missing baptisms, bear in mind that we only have the index to the >>registers. > >I am not sure what this means - civil registers of birth, or parish etc >registers of baptisms - see below. This was a response to David's earlier email, not adding to what I was saying about baptisms. I meant that we do not have direct access to the certificate collection, only to the catalogues at the FRC or online indexes. It's not clear how accurately the latter describe the collection. Michael -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/403 - Release Date: 28/07/2006

Well there you go. I'd seen cathedrals - Glasgow is a fine example, and assumed that the same arrangement applie as in England & Wales. ... Elizabeth Elizabeth, Yes they do have some cathedrals, Dunblane and Glasgow come to mind, but no bishops and the congregation of each church chooses it's own minister from those who apply and spend some time preaching and getting to know the people of the parish. The General Assembly of the Church of Scotland meets in Edinburgh and each year picks a Moderator who serves for one year only. My late father in law was a minister and one of his brothers served a term as Moderator. Nuala

Elizabeth, Yes they do have some cathedrals, Dunblane and Glasgow come to mind, but no bishops and the congregation of each church chooses it's own minister from those who apply and spend some time preaching and getting to know the people of the parish. The General Assembly of the Church of Scotland meets in Edinburgh and each year picks a Moderator who serves for one year only. My late father in law was a minister and one of his brothers served a term as Moderator. Nuala ----- Original Message ----- From: Elizabeth Atherton To: [email protected] ; [email protected] Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 6:34 PM Subject: Re: [OEL] Cathdrals Whoops, didn't know that - but don't they have cathedrals ? ... Elizabeth Elizabeth, Church of Scotland is Presbyterian not Anglican! Nuala

Whoops, didn't know that - but don't they have cathedrals ? ... Elizabeth Elizabeth, Church of Scotland is Presbyterian not Anglican! Nuala

Elizabeth, Church of Scotland is Presbyterian not Anglican! Nuala ----- Original Message ----- From: "Elizabeth Atherton" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 3:11 PM Subject: [OEL] Cathdrals > OK - in the UK we have the Church of England, Church of Wales, Church of > Scotland, all members of the Anglican church. Each region is divided into > areas called dioceses. Each diocese has a bishop. The bishop sits in the > cathedral which is the principal or mother church of the diocese. He sits > on > the bishop's or episcopal throne. Cathedral is from the Latin cathedra > meaning chair. There are also two Archbishops, the senior in the south at > Canterbury and the junior in the north at York. > > A collegiate church is an important church served by a college of canons > (priests) not a single priest & doesn't have a bishop. > > ... Elizabeth > > > Now I must reveal my considerable ignorance of things English. What is the > difference between a Cathedral and a church? I thought a cathedral was > just a big church but it appears that there is more to it. Thanks, Ruth > > > And from an earlier reply: --- it was the mother parish church, to be > precise the collegiate and parish church. > > What exactly is or was a collegiate church. The dictionary definitions are > not much help. > My g grandfather was the proprietor of a collegiate school. How does this > differ from an ordinary school? > Cheers, > Graham > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > OLD-ENGLISH Web Page > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > > >

Thanks Elizabeth. Ruth At 3:11 PM +0100 8/3/06, Elizabeth Atherton wrote: >OK - in the UK we have the Church of England, Church of Wales, Church of >Scotland, all members of the Anglican church. Each region is divided into >areas called dioceses. Each diocese has a bishop. The bishop sits in the >cathedral which is the principal or mother church of the diocese. He sits on >the bishop's or episcopal throne. Cathedral is from the Latin cathedra >meaning chair. There are also two Archbishops, the senior in the south at >Canterbury and the junior in the north at York. > >A collegiate church is an important church served by a college of canons >(priests) not a single priest & doesn't have a bishop. > > ... Elizabeth -- Ruth Barton [email protected] Dummerston, VT

OK - in the UK we have the Church of England, Church of Wales, Church of Scotland, all members of the Anglican church. Each region is divided into areas called dioceses. Each diocese has a bishop. The bishop sits in the cathedral which is the principal or mother church of the diocese. He sits on the bishop's or episcopal throne. Cathedral is from the Latin cathedra meaning chair. There are also two Archbishops, the senior in the south at Canterbury and the junior in the north at York. A collegiate church is an important church served by a college of canons (priests) not a single priest & doesn't have a bishop. ... Elizabeth Now I must reveal my considerable ignorance of things English. What is the difference between a Cathedral and a church? I thought a cathedral was just a big church but it appears that there is more to it. Thanks, Ruth And from an earlier reply: --- it was the mother parish church, to be precise the collegiate and parish church. What exactly is or was a collegiate church. The dictionary definitions are not much help. My g grandfather was the proprietor of a collegiate school. How does this differ from an ordinary school? Cheers, Graham

In message <[email protected]>, Michael Scott <[email protected]> writes >Hello, > >Thanks for your suggestions. What puzzled me is why Phineas should have >chosen not to baptise his first two sons, even though he paid for their >apprenticeship. I was wondering if there might be a reason for this -- other >than lack of money or nonconformism, which seem not to be in play here. > >David: re. missing baptisms, bear in mind that we only have the index to the >registers. I am not sure what this means - civil registers of birth, or parish etc registers of baptisms - see below. > There has been very little -- perhaps suspiciously little -- >research access to the record archive, so it is not clear how accurate the >index is. There are certainly numerous examples of misspellings. >Also, birth registration only became compulslory after 1875. Prior to that >it was the responsibility of registrars to gather together the records. There is no real link between baptisms and registration of births. Baptisms were not compulsory (after about 1720, and even then the rules were widely ignored); if they did happen, they could take place in any church or chapel the parents wished to use at the time, and may not be consistently in any one denomination. A lot of people experimented with various chapels, not all of whose registers survive. Civil Registration, which only started in 1837, had nothing to do with the church at all, was supposed to be compulsory from then, but the observamce was up to the registrar and not the parent, with no enforcement by fines till 1875, as you say. So it is not at all suyrprising to find, in the early days, baptism without registration or registration without baptism. There were only a few circumstances which involved producing evidence of date of birth or parentage, and the reasons for these tended top arise years after the event. Mostly, they could be dealt with by the swearing of an affidavit by the parents or siblings or anyone who could provide personal knowledge of the birth/parents, as needed. > -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

In message <[email protected]>, [email protected] writes >>Dear Linda >> >>Manchester was the commercial center serving "King Cotton" and many of the >> >>mills in townships around had warehouses in Manchester as well as mills >in >> > >And don't forget that we were world class engineers as well. Whitworth, Beyer, >Garret, Mather & Platt, all names that rang around the world. It's true - at one time, if you needed to be sure of getting a job, there were only two places to go - London or Manchester, with the exciting, cutting edge jobs in the north. Parishes shipped their paupers north (even some of the London ones). Nowadays.......! -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

Manchester Cathedral was originally the parish church of Manchester, a huge parish as many of the Lancashire Parishes were at the time. It was built within the confines of the Baron's Court. After the last of the De La Warrre family line, the manor house was given over to the Church to form a collegiate church (college of priests). This manor house and college is now part of Chetham's Library and you can still see the cells where upto a dozen priests lived and worked and went to say masses their daily masses at the Collegiate church for their sponsors. The priests were looked over by the Church Warden. In the 16th century several chapels of ease were built (can't remember exactly how many -7?)including at Gorton, Hulme, and Denton. Each of these chapels had a chained library of ecclesiastical books in ornate wooden cabinets. The first mobile libraries!! It wasn't until 1847 that the church became a cathedral. Chetham's library is well worth a visit, an original chained library is in the reading room and there is a window seat is where Marx and Engells met and where Engels looked over the poorer slums of Manchester when he wrote his book "the Conditions of the Working Classes in England". best wishes, GAY Gay J Oliver, Stalybridge, Cheshire www.members.aol.com/victoroly/genealogy.htm www.members.aol.com/gayjoliver/Tameside.htm www.fhsc.org.uk/fhsc/dukinfield.htm www.tamesidehistoryforum.org.uk

In einer eMail vom 02.08.2006 02:34:24 (MEZ) - Mitteleurop. Sommerze schreibt [email protected]: Now I must reveal my considerable ignorance of things English. What is the difference between a Cathedral and a church? I thought a cathedral was just a big church but it appears that there is more to it. Thanks, Ruth And from an earlier reply: --- it was the mother parish church, to be precise the collegiate and parish church. What exactly is or was a collegiate church. The dictionary definitions are not much help. My g grandfather was the proprietor of a collegiate school. How does this differ from an ordinary school? Cheers, Graham

>Do so agree, John. It was and still is a great place. Did you forget to >mention Bolton and Watt, millwrights? > >Audrey No Audrey, I was trying to avoid giving everybody who doesn't come from Manchester an inferiority complex:-) If I'd listed everybody I'd be at it all week. John ___________________________________________________________ Tiscali Broadband from 14.99 with free setup! http://www.tiscali.co.uk/products/broadband/

Hello Michael Perhaps he did baptise them but in a different church that you haven't found yet. I had thought that two of my relatives were not baptised until they were discovered in a different church register to the others. What is more, the last birth was registered in the civil registry. It took a while to find them all but eventually I found that they had all been either baptised or registered. However, in the family of the son of this family, of his three sons, the first one was registered, the second wasn't but the third was. The only reason I can think of is that the second son was born when the first was less than two years old. The father worked on seagoing tugs and so perhaps the capability of the mother to register this birth may have been reduced. By the time of the third birth, perhaps her better health, a possible presence of her husband, and the ages of the other children, made it easier to register the latest one. Perhaps, when it came to baptising your relatives two eldest sons, it was a case of priorities. He didn't see it as necessary as providing for their futures by buying their apprenticeships. When it comes to misspellings, perhaps it's more a case of misreadings of the originals. If I hadn't known the maiden name of the mother of one of my 2x greats, I would have been none the wiser from the copy certificate. As it was a fairly unusual name, the transcriber or copier had done his/her best but got it wrong. As for the civil registers, if you know the rough date of the entry and you know the district, you can try the local register office. They have to keep their own records and, provided you don't expect them to carry out a lot of searching, they will look for you and provide a certificate. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Scott" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 9:58 PM Subject: RE: [OEL] missing baptisms > Hello, > > Thanks for your suggestions. What puzzled me is why Phineas should have > chosen not to baptise his first two sons, even though he paid for their > apprenticeship. I was wondering if there might be a reason for this -- > other > than lack of money or nonconformism, which seem not to be in play here. > > David: re. missing baptisms, bear in mind that we only have the index to > the > registers. There has been very little -- perhaps suspiciously little -- > research access to the record archive, so it is not clear how accurate the > index is. There are certainly numerous examples of misspellings. > Also, birth registration only became compulslory after 1875. Prior to that > it was the responsibility of registrars to gather together the records. > > > Michael > -----Original Message----- > From: Mr Chillistone [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: 01 August 2006 00:39 > To: Michael Scott; [email protected] > Subject: Re: [OEL] missing baptisms > > > Michael, > > I can't help with the missing baptisms, but has anyone got any thoughts on > why the births of 5 children to a couple back down my family tree appear > in > the parish register, but are completely absent from the national births, > marriages and deaths records? > > Kind regards, > > David Chillistone > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael Scott" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 5:49 PM > Subject: [OEL] missing baptisms > > >> Hello, >> >> I've found a puzzling case of a late c18 Whitechapel family who did not >> baptise their first two children. I have quite a lot of background >> information about them and can find no obvious explanation. I wonder if >> anyone has further ideas? >> >> Phineas Johnson and Mary Taylor married 1772 and lived on White Lyon > Street >> in Whitechapel (the South end of today's Leman Street). The baptisms of > nine >> of their children are registered at St Mary Whitechapel between 1777 and >> 1792. However, there are (at least) two more: >> >> (1) Henry George Johnson, apprenticed a Painter Stainer and baptised in > his >> 40s at St Mary Lambeth (giving his date of birth 1773) >> (2) James Taylor Johnson, apprenticed a Stationer in 1790. Presumably >> born >> 1776 or earlier. >> >> Two explanations occurred to me, but neither seems probable: >> >> I wondered if Phineas might be a nonconformist -- certainly a popular > option >> in Whitechapel at this time. But I've found no evidence for this. He was >> baptised himself, as were all his brothers and sisters, at St Mary >> Whitechapel and he married at St John Wapping. >> >> Also, Phineas appears to have been financially ok for most of his life, >> if >> not particularly wealthy. He was apprenticed a Painter Stainer, became > free >> of the City and worked as an oilman or colourman. He paid taxes on the >> property in White Lyon St until his death in 1804; he also inherited >> property in Hendon which he sold in the 1780s. None of the parish records >> identify him as poor. >> >> thanks, >> >> Michael >> -- >> No virus found in this outgoing message. >> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >> Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.4/399 - Release Date: >> 25/07/2006 >> >> >> ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== >> OLD-ENGLISH Web Page >> http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ >> >> >> >> >> -- >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >> Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/404 - Release Date: 31/07/06 >> >> > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/403 - Release Date: 28/07/2006 > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/403 - Release Date: 28/07/2006 > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > OLD-ENGLISH Web Page > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/403 - Release Date: 28/07/2006 > >

Do so agree, John. It was and still is a great place. Did you forget to mention Bolton and Watt, millwrights? Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: "Norman Lee" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 10:51 AM Subject: Re: [OEL] MARIAGE FEES CATHEDRALS > >Dear Linda >> >>Manchester was the commercial center serving "King Cotton" and many of the >> >>mills in townships around had warehouses in Manchester as well as mills > in >> > > And don't forget that we were world class engineers as well. Whitworth, > Beyer, > Garret, Mather & Platt, all names that rang around the world. > > John > > > ___________________________________________________________ > > Tiscali Broadband from 14.99 with free setup! > http://www.tiscali.co.uk/products/broadband/ > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/403 - Release Date: 28/07/2006 > >

Hello Michael, Baptism is a once-in-a-lifetime event. Henry George you say was baptised when in his forties, so the parents were plainly not concerned to ensure that all the children were baptised when young. If that could happen to one it could, I would have thought, have happened to others. The only other possibility, if you exclude a nonconformist baptism, is that the child was baptised beyond the parish(es) you have searched. It is by no means unknown for children to be baptised in the parishes of their grandparents or their god-parents. Our two were baptised in parishes 100 miles from where we lived ! I am not suggesting that yours travelled that distance -there are a lot of parishes in the highly-populated area of south-east Middlesex and the eastern part of the City of London, - well over a dozen, all within easy walking distance of each other. Have you checked them all? Jim Halsey