Nice theory but wrong. In my own family there is 16 months between my first born and second born and 13 months between my second and third. My wife was born 11 months before her sister. Cheers Guy Keith Griffiths wrote: > snip > A fact that has escaped me until now is that there are real physical > constraints preventing births being too close to each other. > > We all know about the gestation period being about 266 days or 38 weeks or > about 9 months. I obviously thought there must be a period of time for the > mother to recover. But when I asked my wife about it, I was surprised to > learn (males just don't think about these things) that at least 6 months was > required. Making enquiries on the Net I found that this is because whether > the mother breast feeds the baby or not, the very act of giving birth means > that there is a lactation period which acts as a contraceptive. For the > first 6 months it is 98% effective, after 6 months the risk of getting > pregnant gradually increases. > > snip > > The question is have I made some false assumptions along the way, or have I > not taken other factors into account? > ~~ > Keith Griffiths > -- Wakefield, West Yorkshire, England. http://freespace.virgin.net/guy.etchells The site that gives you facts not promises! http://anguline.co.uk/ Anguline Research Archives

Hi Keith, I don't think you can have such a set time frame between the birth of one child and the next. My older sister is thirteen months older than I am. My two youngest children have eleven months between them. I too believed the old wives tales that if you were feeding a child, you wouldn't become pregnant. Wrong....... Sometimes the hand of fate intervenes with us mere mortals:-)) Kind regards, Yvonne >> When researching large families in the mid to late 1500s where there is good information on baptism dates, you can get a succession of children with notionally the same father which I, at least, have merely recorded without really looking at the time difference between the given baptism dates. A fact that has escaped me until now is that there are real physical constraints preventing births being too close to each other. We all know about the gestation period being about 266 days or 38 weeks or about 9 months. I obviously thought there must be a period of time for the mother to recover. But when I asked my wife about it, I was surprised to learn (males just don't think about these things) that at least 6 months was required. Making enquiries on the Net I found that this is because whether the mother breast feeds the baby or not, the very act of giving birth means that there is a lactation period which acts as a contraceptive. For the first 6 months it is 98% effective, after 6 months the risk of getting pregnant gradually increases. This is important information for genealogists. Assuming that baptisms take place a few days after births, it means that from the birth of one baby, there is a lactation period of 6 months, conception, gestation of 9 months, and baptism - i.e. at least 1 year 3 months I recorded these baptisms for one father: (Children baptised, time between this child's baptism and the next baptism in years, months and days) Between A and B, 2y 5m 0d Between B and C, 3y 1m 23d Between C and D, 2y 0m 19d between D and E, 1y 4m 15d Between E and F, 3y 3m 3d Between F and G, 1y 2m 3d - query Between G and H, 1y 10m 1d Between H and I, 1y 3m 20d Between I and J, 2y 1m 8d Between J and K, 1y 7m 3d Between K and L, 3y 0m 24d Between L and M, 1y 2m 19d - query M is the final baptism There was a burial of someone with the family surname just before the baptism of B. Let's call him Z. Z may have died very young; there is no baptism record for him. However using the criteria above: 6 months lactation, 9 months gestation, 6 months lactation, 9 months gestation which amounts to 2y 6m, there is insufficient time between A and B for Z to have been born. Z therefore is probably an older member of the family or a child in a different line. Moreover, looking at the data above, it is doubtful that both G and M had the same father as the rest of the children. The question is have I made some false assumptions along the way, or have I not taken other factors into account? ~~ Keith Griffiths <<

When researching large families in the mid to late 1500s where there is good information on baptism dates, you can get a succession of children with notionally the same father which I, at least, have merely recorded without really looking at the time difference between the given baptism dates. A fact that has escaped me until now is that there are real physical constraints preventing births being too close to each other. We all know about the gestation period being about 266 days or 38 weeks or about 9 months. I obviously thought there must be a period of time for the mother to recover. But when I asked my wife about it, I was surprised to learn (males just don't think about these things) that at least 6 months was required. Making enquiries on the Net I found that this is because whether the mother breast feeds the baby or not, the very act of giving birth means that there is a lactation period which acts as a contraceptive. For the first 6 months it is 98% effective, after 6 months the risk of getting pregnant gradually increases. This is important information for genealogists. Assuming that baptisms take place a few days after births, it means that from the birth of one baby, there is a lactation period of 6 months, conception, gestation of 9 months, and baptism - i.e. at least 1 year 3 months I recorded these baptisms for one father: (Children baptised, time between this child's baptism and the next baptism in years, months and days) Between A and B, 2y 5m 0d Between B and C, 3y 1m 23d Between C and D, 2y 0m 19d between D and E, 1y 4m 15d Between E and F, 3y 3m 3d Between F and G, 1y 2m 3d - query Between G and H, 1y 10m 1d Between H and I, 1y 3m 20d Between I and J, 2y 1m 8d Between J and K, 1y 7m 3d Between K and L, 3y 0m 24d Between L and M, 1y 2m 19d - query M is the final baptism There was a burial of someone with the family surname just before the baptism of B. Let's call him Z. Z may have died very young; there is no baptism record for him. However using the criteria above: 6 months lactation, 9 months gestation, 6 months lactation, 9 months gestation which amounts to 2y 6m, there is insufficient time between A and B for Z to have been born. Z therefore is probably an older member of the family or a child in a different line. Moreover, looking at the data above, it is doubtful that both G and M had the same father as the rest of the children. The question is have I made some false assumptions along the way, or have I not taken other factors into account? ~~ Keith Griffiths

Hence: "a pretty kettle of fish"?

Yes! The evolution comes to mind with these types of pots/kettles being used catch salmon in the rivers Parret & Axe in Somerset in days gone by, although I'm unsure as to whether they were known by this name or a variation of it? Their shape was more squarish than round or triangular although other traps in Bridgwater bay were I think the latter? Kind Regards Roy LD Cox Family Historian Member of SA&NHS Member No. 1066 (And all That!) Web Site: www.coxresearcher.com/index.htm I also use www.archivecdbooks.com and www.localhistory.co.uk/ambra for my research -----Original Message----- From: Eve McLaughlin [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2006 3:04 PM To: Roy Cc: [email protected] Subject: Re: [OEL] Meaning of "kidel" In message <[email protected]>, Roy <[email protected]> writes >Good Evening Martyn - > >KIDEL - the nearest I can find is 'KID' - A bundle of wood or brushwood >twigs for kindling? a close extension is that a kid is a wickerwork basket, so this 'little kid' could be a wickerwork fish trap or curved wicker construction, cunningly placed in the stream to trap fish (hence a kiddle or kettle of fish).. The modern survival on a small scale is a lobster pot. -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.3/423 - Release Date: 18/08/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.3/423 - Release Date: 18/08/2006

The word is not restricted to England. "kete" is the Maori word for a kit or basket woven from flax leaves. Brian Creed, Levin, N. Z. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eve McLaughlin" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, August 21, 2006 2:03 AM Subject: Re: [OEL] Meaning of "kidel" > In message <[email protected]>, Roy > <[email protected]> writes > >Good Evening Martyn - > > > >KIDEL - the nearest I can find is 'KID' - A bundle of wood or brushwood > >twigs for kindling? > > a close extension is that a kid is a wickerwork basket, so this 'little > kid' could be a wickerwork fish trap or curved wicker construction, > cunningly placed in the stream to trap fish (hence a kiddle or kettle of > fish).. The modern survival on a small scale is a lobster pot. > > -- > Eve McLaughlin > > Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians > Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > SEARCHABLE archives for OLD-ENGLISH: > http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=OLD-ENGLISH > >

In message <[email protected]>, Roy <[email protected]> writes >Good Evening Martyn - > >KIDEL - the nearest I can find is 'KID' - A bundle of wood or brushwood >twigs for kindling? a close extension is that a kid is a wickerwork basket, so this 'little kid' could be a wickerwork fish trap or curved wicker construction, cunningly placed in the stream to trap fish (hence a kiddle or kettle of fish).. The modern survival on a small scale is a lobster pot. -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

Hi Martyn, The OED has: kiddle. Forms: kiddell, kydle, kydell, kedel(l), kiddel, kidle, kettle, kedle, keddle, kidel, kiddle. [a. AF. kidel, kydel (whence med.(Anglo-)L. kidellus), OF. quidel (1289 in Godef. Compl.), later quideau 'a Wicker Engine whereby fish is caught' (Cotgr.), also guidel (1322 in Godef.), mod.F. guideau, a stake-net, also, a line of sloping planks placed to direct a current; Breton kidel stake-net (Le Gonidec).] a. A dam, weir, or barrier in a river, having an opening in it fitted with nets or other appliances for catching fish. b. An arrangement of stake-nets on the sea-beach for the same purpose (see quot. 1891). The word is chiefly found in some early statutes (Latin and Anglo-French) and in later references to these: there is no clear evidence that it was actually current in sense a later than c 1550. Cheers, Liz in Melbourne -----Original Message----- From: mjcl [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Sunday, 20 August 2006 3:34 AM To: [email protected] Subject: [OEL] Meaning of "kidel" The following is from the Calendar of Patent Rolls, Edward III, Vol. 1 May 8 1327, Nottingham. ............... "complaining that divers men of the counties of Middlesex, Surrey, Berks and Oxford have kidels along the banks of the river between London and Oxford, have made weirs in the same river, and fixed pales and piles along its course, and tied the cords of their nets athwart the stream, to the obstruction of ships and boats, contrary to divers charters of the citizens, and more especially to Magna Carta,-to enquire by jury of those counties as to the premises, with power to remove the said kidels, etc., and to punish offenders by fine and otherwise." Can someone please advise as to what a "kidel" is. Thanks, in anticipation, Martyn ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== To UNSUBSCRIBE from list mode -- Send the one word UNSUBSCRIBE to [email protected]

People, Thanks as as ever for a very rapid and accurate response. Regards, Martyn.

Hello Martyn, Bailey's Dictionary (1753) shows KIDLE, KIDEL as "A dam in a river to carch fish" It also gives "KIDLES" as "unlawful fishing nets" Jim Halsey

On Saturday, August 19, 2006, 6:33:39 PM, Martyn wrote: m> Can someone please advise as to what a "kidel" is. kiddle, kidel, kettle, "A stake fence set into a stream for catching fish." (O.Fr. quidel, cf. Bret. kidel) [Source: Chambers 20th Century Dictionary] -- Cheers, Anne Docwra Family Research Project http://www.docwras.org.uk ___________________________________________________________ All New Yahoo! Mail � Tired of [email protected]@! come-ons? Let our SpamGuard protect you. http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html

Good Evening Martyn - KIDEL - the nearest I can find is 'KID' - A bundle of wood or brushwood twigs for kindling? May or may not lead to something hot!? Incidentally, this is also a surname more common in USA it appears? Kind Regards Roy LD Cox Family Historian Member of SA&NHS Member No. 1066 (And all That!) Web Site: www.coxresearcher.com/index.htm I also use www.archivecdbooks.com and www.localhistory.co.uk/ambra for my research -----Original Message----- From: mjcl [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2006 6:34 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [OEL] Meaning of "kidel" The following is from the Calendar of Patent Rolls, Edward III, Vol. 1 May 8 1327, Nottingham. ............... "complaining that divers men of the counties of Middlesex, Surrey, Berks and Oxford have kidels along the banks of the river between London and Oxford, have made weirs in the same river, and fixed pales and piles along its course, and tied the cords of their nets athwart the stream, to the obstruction of ships and boats, contrary to divers charters of the citizens, and more especially to Magna Carta,—to enquire by jury of those counties as to the premises, with power to remove the said kidels, etc., and to punish offenders by fine and otherwise." Can someone please advise as to what a "kidel" is. Thanks, in anticipation, Martyn ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== To UNSUBSCRIBE from list mode -- Send the one word UNSUBSCRIBE to [email protected] -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.3/423 - Release Date: 18/08/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.3/423 - Release Date: 18/08/2006

The following is from the Calendar of Patent Rolls, Edward III, Vol. 1 May 8 1327, Nottingham. ............... "complaining that divers men of the counties of Middlesex, Surrey, Berks and Oxford have kidels along the banks of the river between London and Oxford, have made weirs in the same river, and fixed pales and piles along its course, and tied the cords of their nets athwart the stream, to the obstruction of ships and boats, contrary to divers charters of the citizens, and more especially to Magna Carta,—to enquire by jury of those counties as to the premises, with power to remove the said kidels, etc., and to punish offenders by fine and otherwise." Can someone please advise as to what a "kidel" is. Thanks, in anticipation, Martyn

From one website I found on a Google search I got from the German: Kittel: apron or work shirt, from middle/old German kedel, keel, kidel. Sue [email protected] DNA Group R1b1 Y-Search 2C534 Y-Base TZPH1 -----Original Message----- From: mjcl [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2006 1:34 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [OEL] Meaning of "kidel" The following is from the Calendar of Patent Rolls, Edward III, Vol. 1 May 8 1327, Nottingham. ............... "complaining that divers men of the counties of Middlesex, Surrey, Berks and Oxford have kidels along the banks of the river between London and Oxford, have made weirs in the same river, and fixed pales and piles along its course, and tied the cords of their nets athwart the stream, to the obstruction of ships and boats, contrary to divers charters of the citizens, and more especially to Magna Carta,-to enquire by jury of those counties as to the premises, with power to remove the said kidels, etc., and to punish offenders by fine and otherwise." Can someone please advise as to what a "kidel" is. Thanks, in anticipation, Martyn ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== To UNSUBSCRIBE from list mode -- Send the one word UNSUBSCRIBE to [email protected]

Many thanks to those who sent me information on my queries. DON TOMKINSON

Eve, Thank you for the note about the Quarter Session records. I have a family in Oundle, Northamptonshire, in 1829 who were removed to Winwick (near Great Gidding). The wife was from Oundle, the husband from Upwood, Huntingdonshire. I have never been able to determine why they were sent to Winwick. Maybe the quarter sessions will help. Thanks for the clue. Maureen Bryson

Many thanks Audrey. I now believe that Thomas Tomkinson was a cordwainer. Freemason seems to have referred to a stonemason - apparently the first record of a lodge of the contemporary society in England was in Newcastle on Tyne in 1641. Regards, Don ----- Original Message ----- From: "Norman Lee" <[email protected]> To: "Donald Tomkinson" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2006 5:01 PM Subject: Re: [OEL] SEALER OF LEATHER > Sounds more like a tanner, doesn't it. I think perhaps the best thing is to > look for a web site for the guilds of each occupation. They may well have > the history. Apprenticeship for some began at seven and you became a > journeyman at 21, although I wait for correction on this. I think that the > freemason may have been an occupational status title but, again, I'd look to > find a guild site for stone masons. I believe the Duke of Sussex was the man > who originated the society of freemasons but don't know when that began. > > Audrey > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Donald Tomkinson" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2006 4:07 PM > Subject: [OEL] SEALER OF LEATHER > > > > In 1631 Thomas Tomkinson was appointed a "searcher and sealer of > > leather" in Newcastle under Lyme. I'd be grateful for an explanation > > of the duties of the office. I assume that it was connected with > > assessing the qualities of leather. Would it also imply that Thomas > > was a cordwainer or a tanner? > > > > Don Tomkinson > > > > > > ==== OLD-ENGLISH Mailing List ==== > > THREADED archives for OLD-ENGLISH: > > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > > > > > > > > -- > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 268.10.9/416 - Release Date: 10/08/2006 > > > > >

In message <[email protected]>, Michael Scott <[email protected]> writes >Hello, > >I have been looking at some mid C18 tithe collection books, and found a >marginal note against one tenant that the tithe was 'paid by order'. The >same tenant paid several tithes 'by order' in the following years. I wonder >if anyone knows exactly what this means? Possibly the owner held back on his tithes but paid up when he had been taken to court and an Order made again him (pay or be distrained). Nonconformists vainly tried to avoid payment in support of a church they disapproved of. > >A colleague tells me that the owner or leaseholder of several houses that he >let out could 'commute' the individual tax assessments for one lump sum This was at the end of the C18, not mid. -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

In message <[email protected]>, [email protected] writes >I have a copy of a removal order, from 1725, in which the churchwardens and >overseers of the poor are commanded 'to remove and convey the said Mary Beaves >and Anne Beaves from the said parish of St Saviour Southwark to the said >parish of East Grinstead.' > >There is no mention of family relationships or status in the order but I >believe (from a will) that Mary and Ann were quite young girls (baptisms not yet >found). My question is, what is the youngest age at which children could be >treated separately from their parents Seven - illegitimate children could then be returned to their place of birth, and children of a deceased father to his settlement place. >(who I believe were still alive at the >time)? Could the word 'convey' in the order imply that they were too young to >travel unaccompanied? Generally they would be set walking and checked at set intervals by the local parish constable. A really kindly magistrate might order conveyance by coach or carrier's cart. It does seem a little unexpected for children who are mentioned in a will (presumably with relatives with money, some of which came their way) to be the subject of a vagrancy order/or removal order. There would have been further paperwork in the parish, possibly detailing ages, and the Quarter Sessions record (issuing the removal order) would normally include further evidence in the Sessions Rolls. -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

Hello, I have been looking at some mid C18 tithe collection books, and found a marginal note against one tenant that the tithe was 'paid by order'. The same tenant paid several tithes 'by order' in the following years. I wonder if anyone knows exactly what this means? A colleague tells me that the owner or leaseholder of several houses that he let out could 'commute' the individual tax assessments for one lump sum -- so the tax collector does not have to check every property. Possibly something similar is going on here? thanks, Michael -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.10.9/417 - Release Date: 11/08/2006