Hi Barbara, The French verb 'bouter', now obsolete, means 'to put'. My French dictionary (Concise Oxford) has the following for 'haie': Hedge, hedgerow, fence, hurdle. In the OED, a hey, or hay, was, amongst other meanings: 'A hedge, a fence'. In its ME. form the word became more or less identified with Fr. Haie. A second definition is given here 'An enclosed space; an enclosure; a park.' but this has the earliest citation in around 1630 which is too late for your instance. Another definition given for hay and linked to the Fr. Haie, ia 'a net used for catching wild animals, esp. rabbits, being stretched in front of their holes, or round their haunts'. But given the French dictionary entry, I think I'd go with hedge. Cheers, Liz in Melbourne > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto:old-english- > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Barbara > Sent: Tuesday, 17 October 2006 5:22 AM > To: [email protected] Com > Subject: [OEL] Mediaeval French > > Can anyone translate this please: 'le graunde heye que se boute sur lewe > de > Caldre'? A combination of dictionaries and online translation tools gives > 'the Great Hey that pares itself on the water of the Calder' - which fits > except for 'pares'. I have passed this by one or two more knowledgeable > people than myself and they are stumped too. > > Also I have come across references to this Great Hey before and wondered > if > anyone would know exactly what the term hey would mean in the 13th > century. > The general area was probably heavily wooded at the time, with some > clearance and another document refers to 'the Great Hey and other common > woods' - so would it refer to an enclosure within a wooded area or a wood > or > even an enclosed area for stock management, which is another > interpretation > I have come across. When the manor was divided between three people at > this > time they each received certain well defined areas but all were to share > the > profits of this particular piece of land. > > Very grateful for any help with these. > > Barbara

Does anyone know if Henry is spelled Honorio in 18th century documents. It is supposed to be Henerie. I have been reading In Search of Your British and Irish Roots and this author said Henry was spelled his way in older documents. Le ----- Original Message ----- From: "garth swanson" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]>; <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 1:23 AM Subject: [OEL] Mediaeval French Barbara Without being at all analytical, my impression from modern French is that it means: "The large hedge( perhaps meadow) adjoining Caldre's place((le) lieu)." I am sure that in the Midlands of England I have heard hay(e) in place names, e.g. Heath Hayes, referring to a field or meadow. Garth > From: "Barbara" <[email protected]> > Can anyone translate this please: ?le graunde heye que se boute sur lewe > de > Caldre?? ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I remember having a definition of hay as meaning ancient enclosure, enclosed by hedges. This has special significance in my part of the country as most of the later enclosures were made by stone walls. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Elizabeth Agar" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 10:22 PM Subject: Re: [OEL] Mediaeval French > Hi Barbara, > > The French verb 'bouter', now obsolete, means 'to put'. > > My French dictionary (Concise Oxford) has the following for 'haie': > Hedge, > hedgerow, fence, hurdle. > > In the OED, a hey, or hay, was, amongst other meanings: 'A hedge, a > fence'. > In its ME. form the word became more or less identified with Fr. Haie. A > second definition is given here 'An enclosed space; an enclosure; a park.' > but this has the earliest citation in around 1630 which is too late for > your > instance. > > Another definition given for hay and linked to the Fr. Haie, ia 'a net > used > for catching wild animals, esp. rabbits, being stretched in front of their > holes, or round their haunts'. > > But given the French dictionary entry, I think I'd go with hedge. > > Cheers, > > Liz in Melbourne > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] [mailto:old-english- >> [email protected]] On Behalf Of Barbara >> Sent: Tuesday, 17 October 2006 5:22 AM >> To: [email protected] Com >> Subject: [OEL] Mediaeval French >> >> Can anyone translate this please: 'le graunde heye que se boute sur lewe >> de >> Caldre'? A combination of dictionaries and online translation tools gives >> 'the Great Hey that pares itself on the water of the Calder' - which fits >> except for 'pares'. I have passed this by one or two more knowledgeable >> people than myself and they are stumped too. >> >> Also I have come across references to this Great Hey before and wondered >> if >> anyone would know exactly what the term hey would mean in the 13th >> century. >> The general area was probably heavily wooded at the time, with some >> clearance and another document refers to 'the Great Hey and other common >> woods' - so would it refer to an enclosure within a wooded area or a wood >> or >> even an enclosed area for stock management, which is another >> interpretation >> I have come across. When the manor was divided between three people at >> this >> time they each received certain well defined areas but all were to share >> the >> profits of this particular piece of land. >> >> Very grateful for any help with these. >> >> Barbara > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.13.1/470 - Release Date: 10/10/2006 > >

Barbara, With the other bits in place could I suggest that "se boute" could be interpreted as "abuts" ...... just a thought. Martyn ----- Original Message ---- From: Barbara <[email protected]> To: "[email protected] Com" <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, 16 October, 2006 8:21:35 PM Subject: [OEL] Mediaeval French Can anyone translate this please: le graunde heye que se boute sur lewe de Caldre? A combination of dictionaries and online translation tools gives the Great Hey that pares itself on the water of the Calder' which fits except for pares. I have passed this by one or two more knowledgeable people than myself and they are stumped too. Also I have come across references to this Great Hey before and wondered if anyone would know exactly what the term hey would mean in the 13th century. The general area was probably heavily wooded at the time, with some clearance and another document refers to the Great Hey and other common woods so would it refer to an enclosure within a wooded area or a wood or even an enclosed area for stock management, which is another interpretation I have come across. When the manor was divided between three people at this time they each received certain well defined areas but all were to share the profits of this particular piece of land. Very grateful for any help with these. Barbara ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thanks for Audrey and Liz for information on the meaning or sithence. Your responses are very much appreciated. Debi Coe

You wrote that "some of the bequests are single bushells of wheat, equivalent in volume to 10 gallons. This seems rather a small amount, does this seem appropriate to the time and person?" I think these small bequests were intended to tide the women over after William's death until the estate had been settled. It shows he was careful in his responsibilities towards them. Once it was settled the dependent women in the family became the responsibility of the son or other male heir and he stepped in to ensure they were provided with enough wheat, oats, or rye. I have seen wills where the bequest was so many quarts per year for the rest of their lives or until the widow or daughters married. No doubt in some of these instances it was made a continuous legacy because the father didn't trust the son to properly care for the women in the family. Beth ----- Original Message ----- From: "garth swanson" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 12:59 PM Subject: [OEL] A Yorks. will - 1559

I am transcribing a document I found and had copied by the National Archives. Ref is C 12/2173/10 It concerns a complaint regarding a Will to the Right Honourable Alexander Lord Loughborough Baron of Loughborough in the County of Leicester. I am not sure if the date is 22 Feby or 22 July 1794 after which it says >>>>>>>>>>> by Winter. I am hoping it is a standard phrase? Also. in the body of the document is the phrase "Edward Williams in the said Bill named died seized and ............." and "said real estates of which the said Edward Williams died seized and which had been sold" What does seized mean in this context? regards Lyn Nunn Brisbane Australia

Can anyone translate this please: ‘le graunde heye que se boute sur lewe de Caldre’? A combination of dictionaries and online translation tools gives ‘the Great Hey that pares itself on the water of the Calder' – which fits except for ‘pares’. I have passed this by one or two more knowledgeable people than myself and they are stumped too. Also I have come across references to this Great Hey before and wondered if anyone would know exactly what the term hey would mean in the 13th century. The general area was probably heavily wooded at the time, with some clearance and another document refers to ‘the Great Hey and other common woods’ – so would it refer to an enclosure within a wooded area or a wood or even an enclosed area for stock management, which is another interpretation I have come across. When the manor was divided between three people at this time they each received certain well defined areas but all were to share the profits of this particular piece of land. Very grateful for any help with these. Barbara

Garth, My apologies, you are perfectly correct. The bit I left out is "p[er] duos [?---] testes" The missing word appears to be "vet" could be an abbreviation of venerunt. (My latin is somehat ropey so I wont stick my neck out!) Regards, Martyn ----- Original Message ---- From: garth swanson <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Monday, 16 October, 2006 12:59:59 PM Subject: [OEL] A Yorks. will - 1559 In response to the following question which I posed on the Yorks list: "In transcribing a Yorkshire will from 1559 we came across the word "wande" which from its context appears to be a measure of land. I wonder if anyone has seen this word and knows what area it refers to." I received the following suggestion: "I suggest it could be wandale which according to the Local Historians's Encyclopedia is a Yorkshire term for a strip of open field." This fits the text and context of the will. Wande would then be an abbreviated form. Some of the bequests are single bushells of wheat, equivalent in volume to 10 gallons. This seems rather a small amount, does this seem appropriate to the time and person? Garth ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

> >Also. in the body of the document is the phrase "Edward Williams in the said >Bill named died seized and ............." and "said real estates of which the >said Edward Williams died seized and which had been sold" What does seized mean >in this context? He held legal possession of (at the time of his death), having taken formal seizin in the past. Orignally, 'taking seizin' of land involved being physically handed a lump of earth. Hence when William the Conqueror tripped when disembarking from his invasion boat and ended up face down in the mud, his men shuddered at the bad omen. But he was bright enough to get up, with a fist full of Sussex mud, and say 'I am taking seizin of my new [email protected] -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

Hi Barbara, I don't know if this fits but just the word pares translates to avoid on the online translation site. Sue [email protected] DNA Group R1b1 Y-Search 2C534 -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Barbara Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 3:22 PM To: [email protected] Com Subject: [OEL] Mediaeval French Can anyone translate this please: 'le graunde heye que se boute sur lewe de Caldre'? A combination of dictionaries and online translation tools gives 'the Great Hey that pares itself on the water of the Calder' - which fits except for 'pares'. I have passed this by one or two more knowledgeable people than myself and they are stumped too. Also I have come across references to this Great Hey before and wondered if anyone would know exactly what the term hey would mean in the 13th century. The general area was probably heavily wooded at the time, with some clearance and another document refers to 'the Great Hey and other common woods' - so would it refer to an enclosure within a wooded area or a wood or even an enclosed area for stock management, which is another interpretation I have come across. When the manor was divided between three people at this time they each received certain well defined areas but all were to share the profits of this particular piece of land. Very grateful for any help with these. Barbara ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

In response to the following question which I posed on the Yorks list: "In transcribing a Yorkshire will from 1559 we came across the word "wande" which from its context appears to be a measure of land. I wonder if anyone has seen this word and knows what area it refers to." I received the following suggestion: "I suggest it could be wandale which according to the Local Historians's Encyclopedia is a Yorkshire term for a strip of open field." This fits the text and context of the will. Wande would then be an abbreviated form. Some of the bequests are single bushells of wheat, equivalent in volume to 10 gallons. This seems rather a small amount, does this seem appropriate to the time and person? Garth

http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/unsolved41.html There's no reason to think "wande" in this case is an abbreviation. For one thing, abbreviations in secretary hand are generally easy to recognize by one or more indicators such as superscript, horizontal bar over the text, apostrophe and a number of others. For another, Oxford English Dictionary lists both, defining wandale as a division of land and suggesting (with a question mark) it might be the breadth of a 'wand' or perch. (It's not clear to me whether they're saying wand and perch are the same or two different things.) Interestingly, the examples cited for wandale are very early -- 1100's and 1200's -- with a long gap until this 1641 example from a Surtees publication: Exchainged with Alse Edwards...the other of the Fower oxegange landes which lyeth next her landes in the pasture, for her wandill on the north side of the West-beckes. For wand as a land measure, OED suggests it might equate to a virgate -- rather little help since the size of a virgate varied greatly, in places averaging thirty acres. But OED also lists virgate as a linear measure -- a rod or pole -- and there is a separate listing for wand as a measuring rod including 'yardwand' equalling three feet and a wand in mining equal to eight feet. Confusing, isn't it? But I think it's possible both wand and wandale refer to a strip of land. A 'wand of ing' especially could be a strip since the ing is wet land that might border a river or stream. Someone with detailed local knowledge might be able to sort it out, like a local archivist. It seems the 'wande' in your document could be the same as a wandale or perhaps larger than the wandale but, to get back to my original point, 'wande' is not an abbreviation in my opinion. As to the legacy of a bushel of wheat, it doesn't seem like much now but it was then. I have a Bedfordshire will in which as little as a quarter peck of rye was bequeathed. cheers, Judith Werner Salt Lake City, Utah, USA Administrator, OLD-ENGLISH-L http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ | In response to the following question which I posed on the Yorks list: | | "In transcribing a Yorkshire will from 1559 we came across the word "wande" | which from its context appears to be a measure of land. | | I wonder if anyone has seen this word and knows what area it refers to." | | I received the following suggestion: | | "I suggest it could be wandale which according to the Local Historians's | Encyclopedia is a Yorkshire term for a strip of open field." | | This fits the text and context of the will. Wande would then be an | abbreviated form. | | Some of the bequests are single bushells of wheat, equivalent in volume to | 10 gallons. This seems rather a small amount, does this seem appropriate to | the time and person? | | Garth

Would anyone know what the word "sithence" would have meant in the late 1500's? It was used as follows: "...by a duly levied fine, to the said --------, then of Stoke-Nayland, sithence of Thorpe, which fine was duly levied in Easter term following in the Common Pleas." and "By due conveyances in law said meadows later came to -------- of Stoke-Nayland, sithence deceased, brother of said..." Thank you, Debi Coe

A tough one. I'll have to look at it more, but I think the bit about King William says "for his late Ma[jes]tie King Williams ship..." or maybe ships. I can't make out exactly how Majestie is abbreviated but have seen 'Ma' with superscript 'tie' often enough. And I'm not sure there's an 's' at the end of William, or at the end of Majestie for that matter. You've done well to read as much as you have. Judith Werner Salt Lake City, Utah, USA Administrator, OLD-ENGLISH-L http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ I'm trying to read a very poorly written Chancery deposition from 1702. I have posted it here: http://boards.ancestry.co.uk/mbexec/message/5538/surnames.freeman/3547 I've been able to work out most of it, but there are a few words I'm unsure about or can't decipher. The dispute concerns the rent for a brewery in Aldgate leased to Henry Johnson and Samuel How (the defendants in this case). They agreed a rent with the owner Elizabeth Ratcliffe in 1700, but after her death the new owner (Seth Ratcliffe) wanted to raise the rent to £160pa. Unfortunately for Johnson and How, the lease was incorrectly drafted. The deponent, Thomas Freeman, is describing the poor state of the beer trade at the brewhouse when Johnson and How took over. I'd be particularly grateful for help on the material referring to the King William ship, as this suggests there may have been a navy contract.

Hi Debi, A short answer is Sithence = sith = since A longer answer from the OED is As an adverb: 1. Then, thereupon; afterwards, subsequently. 2. Continuously or ever from or since that time. Freq. with ever or alway. 3. At some or any time(s) since 4. Ago; before now. sith ago, long ago; long since As a preposition: 1. Continuously or ever from (a specified time, etc.) till now 2. During the period, at some or any time(s), since (a specified time) As a conjunction: 1. From, subsequent to, or since the time that. Also rarely with that. 2. Seeing that. Very common from c 1520 to c 1670, being freq. used to express cause, while since was restricted to time. An even longer answer would include lots of citations and alternative spellings but methinks the above is enough!! :-) Liz in Melbourne > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto:old-english- > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Debi > Sent: Monday, 16 October 2006 4:04 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: [OEL] Meaning of sithence > > Would anyone know what the word "sithence" would have meant in the late > 1500's? It was used as follows: > > "...by a duly levied fine, to the said --------, then of Stoke-Nayland, > sithence of Thorpe, which fine was duly levied in Easter term following in > the Common Pleas." > > and > > "By due conveyances in law said meadows later came to -------- of > Stoke-Nayland, sithence deceased, brother of said..." > > Thank you, > Debi Coe >

Hello, I'm trying to read a very poorly written Chancery deposition from 1702. I have posted it here: http://boards.ancestry.co.uk/mbexec/message/5538/surnames.freeman/3547 I've been able to work out most of it, but there are a few words I'm unsure about or can't decipher. The dispute concerns the rent for a brewery in Aldgate leased to Henry Johnson and Samuel How (the defendants in this case). They agreed a rent with the owner Elizabeth Ratcliffe in 1700, but after her death the new owner (Seth Ratcliffe) wanted to raise the rent to £160pa. Unfortunately for Johnson and How, the lease was incorrectly drafted. The deponent, Thomas Freeman, is describing the poor state of the beer trade at the brewhouse when Johnson and How took over. I'd be particularly grateful for help on the material referring to the King William ship, as this suggests there may have been a navy contract. thanks, Michael -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.4/476 - Release Date: 14/10/2006

Hello both Debi and Liz I generally translate this for myself as being a dialect way of saying "since then". It generally makes sense of the rest of the sentence if you substitute these two words for "sithence". Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Debi" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 7:03 AM Subject: [OEL] Meaning of sithence > Would anyone know what the word "sithence" would have meant in the late > 1500's? It was used as follows: > > "...by a duly levied fine, to the said --------, then of Stoke-Nayland, > sithence of Thorpe, which fine was duly levied in Easter term following in > the Common Pleas." > > and > > "By due conveyances in law said meadows later came to -------- of > Stoke-Nayland, sithence deceased, brother of said..." > > Thank you, > Debi Coe > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.13.1/470 - Release Date: 10/10/2006 > >

Judith, I totally agree with "fermhold" in line 6 - its most definitely an 'h' in the middle. I also agree with "wain" at the beginning of line 7 and would suggest that the second word is possibly "dunge". Your interpretation of "wandes of ynge" sounds very, very feasible. All the best Martyn ----- Original Message ---- From: Judith Werner <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Saturday, 14 October, 2006 11:12:42 PM Subject: Re: [OEL] A Yorks. will - 1559 - help please Re http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/unsolved41.html Good show, Martyn. If I get to the Family History Library next week I'll look at the film to see if the faint portion is any more legible. In Line 6, however, I believe it's fermhold (farmhold) rather than fermfold. The 'draughting' item looks like it might be wain (Line 7), but I have to wonder why it would be described as a draughting wain (as opposed to what?), so it may be something else. I've been interested in the 'wandes of ynge' in Line 8, as that's what it appears to be. Oxford English Dictionary has wand as a measure of land (obsolete) and cites a 1596 example from a volume of Yorkshire deeds: [Two] wandes [of meadow] in the Northe Inges. So 'ynge' must be modern ing, about which OED says: A common name in the north of England, and in some other parts, for a meadow; esp. one by the side of a river and more or less swampy or subject to inundation. I'll have another look a little later. cheers, Judith Werner Salt Lake City, Utah, USA Administrator, OLD-ENGLISH-L http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ | I've given it my best shot and have tried my best to decipher the left hand side of the upper part (which is very feint). | | Any way I hope it is of some help. | | | 1. In dei no[m]i[ne] amen the sixt day of Apr[i]le in the yere of o[u]r lord god MCCCCClix I W[illia]m Lenge | | 2. of nether catton husbandman being of p[er]fecte mynd & good remembrance do make | | 3. this my last will & testament as in forme followeth First I give & bequeth my soull to | | 4. almighty god to the blessed virgen marie and to all the celestiall company of heven & my | | 5. body to be buried in the p[ar]ishe churche yarde of catton It[em] I bequeth to the sacrament xijd | | 6. It[em] [? -----] to Ric[hard] lenge my son my fermfold It[em] to the said Ric[hard] my draughting | | 7. [? ----------] & all things belonging to them It[em] to the said Ric[hard] I give my cropp | | 8. of [? -----] of the ground & vj wand[es] of [? ynge] in wilberfosse fild It[em] I give to Jane leng | | 9. my daughter all my shepe [? ---] ? w---e & a counter my bed & on mattresse w[i]t[h] all thing[es] | | 10. belonging [? -----] It I give to Rob[er]t lenge one bushell of whete & on white headed | | 11. stott It[em] I give to Thomas nelis my best gray Jackett It[em] I give to Jenet my daughter | | 12. one bushell of whete It[em] I give to Alison sanderson one bushell of whete Item to | | 13. Agnis my daugghter one bushell of whete It[em] I give to the said Ric[hard] one cowe Item | | 14. I will that the said Jane my daughter shall shifte w[i]t[h] Ric[hard] all my good[es] w[i]t[h]in the house / the residewe | | 15. of my good[es] my debt[es] paid & my funeralls discharged I give to the said Ric[hard] whom I make my | | 16. executor of this my last will & testament This being recorders of the same will & testament Rob[er]t | | 17. clerke John Smeton John clerke & Thomas A[?-]eth clerke & Curate ther / Et xxij die ap[ri]lis | | 18. anno d[omi]ni Mccccclix probat[um] fuit hui[usm]o[d]i test[ament]u[m] iurat &c Com[m]issaq[ue] fuit ad | | 19. mi[ini]straco[em] bonor[um] Ric[hard]o filio soli Excut[or] no[m]i[n]ato iura[men]tp &c salvo iure cuiuscu[m]q[ue] ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thanks to those of you who ventured a ( free ) legal opinion on this . I shall certainly remember Eve's advice when I next come within paying distance of a lawyer - double thanks to you ;>) An alternative approach to the question - has anyone met a case where the expression "only son" is used but there are reasonably clear grounds for assuming that there were other sons , now dead ? Best wishes to all listers, Robert Hillier, Poole, Dorset