Carding machine, that was the word I was looking for :-) I wondered if perhaps rivets might have been called nails, they would happily be cast. John At 01:42 20/10/2006, you wrote: >Birmingham directory 1830 has "Samuel Ashton, iron founder and cast nail >manufacturer". Possibly some heavier nails were cast? Or could this be >nails used on early carding machines? > >Adrian Verry >

The problem is that nails tended to be cut rather than cast, the problem with cast iron being that it is totally unsuited to making nails. We really need to look for either an alternative meaning for nail, or and alternative meaning for cast. This is why I was asking for context. A nail can be a measure of cloth and a nail is also the name for the wire in a cotton comb. John At 00:54 20/10/2006, you wrote: >Sounds like you've guessed rightly. > >Audrey > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Simon Beck" <[email protected]> >To: <[email protected]> >Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 6:03 PM >Subject: [OEL] Occupation Translation > > > > Hey all, > > > > I recently acquired an old birth certificate of a relative, dating back to > > 1887. I was unsure what the father's occupation said, so I asked Judith to > > try and tell me what is says - which she very kindly did (a nail caster). > > > > What I am not sure of however is what a nail caster in 1887 actually did? > > Could it be the making of nails? > > > > I have uploaded the image to > > > http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/message/an/topics.researchresources.translators/171 > > if you care to see it for youselves.

Hi, Many thanks for all your help - really is fascinating. The part of the country it was in was Hunslet in the County of York. So you don't think it would have been the selling of nails then? Thanks, Simon >It might be easier to come up with an answer, or at least a better >guess, if we knew which part of the country and the trades that the >nail caster was surrounded by. _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live™ Messenger has arrived. Click here to download it for free! http://imagine-msn.com/messenger/launch80/?locale=en-gb

Sounds like you've guessed rightly. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Simon Beck" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 6:03 PM Subject: [OEL] Occupation Translation > Hey all, > > I recently acquired an old birth certificate of a relative, dating back to > 1887. I was unsure what the father's occupation said, so I asked Judith to > try and tell me what is says - which she very kindly did (a nail caster). > > What I am not sure of however is what a nail caster in 1887 actually did? > Could it be the making of nails? > > I have uploaded the image to > http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/message/an/topics.researchresources.translators/171 > if you care to see it for youselves. > > Any help appreciated, > > Thanks, > > Simon > > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows LiveT Messenger has arrived. Click here to download it for free! > http://imagine-msn.com/messenger/launch80/?locale=en-gb > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.13.4/477 - Release Date: 16/10/2006

At 22:50 19/10/2006, you wrote: >Hi - Nail caster I don't think is for the iron nails like those cut from >sheet metal (cut nails) - someone will enlighten us I expect? > >Kind Regards >Roy LD Cox >Family Historian It might be easier to come up with an answer, or at least a better guess, if we knew which part of the country and the trades that the nail caster was surrounded by.

Hi - Nail caster I don't think is for the iron nails like those cut from sheet metal (cut nails) - someone will enlighten us I expect? Kind Regards Roy LD Cox Family Historian Web Site: www.coxresearcher.com/index.htm Member of the SANHS No. 1066 (And all That!) www.sanhs.org -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Simon Beck Sent: 19 October 2006 18:03 To: [email protected] Subject: [OEL] Occupation Translation Hey all, I recently acquired an old birth certificate of a relative, dating back to 1887. I was unsure what the father's occupation said, so I asked Judith to try and tell me what is says - which she very kindly did (a nail caster). What I am not sure of however is what a nail caster in 1887 actually did? Could it be the making of nails? I have uploaded the image to http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/message/an/topics.researchresources.transl ators/171 if you care to see it for youselves. Any help appreciated, Thanks, Simon _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live Messenger has arrived. Click here to download it for free! http://imagine-msn.com/messenger/launch80/?locale=en-gb -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.5/485 - Release Date: 19/10/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.5/485 - Release Date: 19/10/2006

Matt Tomkins kindly provided the following information which he is happy for me to pass on to this list. I found it fascinating and I hope that you will too. Garth "Everything Ian Hancock says makes sense to me, though I've never come across wands before as a measure of meadow (this sort of thing is exactly my speciality - I gave a paper at the Agricultural History Society's annual conference last year on the 15th and 16th century agricultural organisation of the landscape in the Buckinghamshire village I'm studying - but I know less about northern England than the south). However I'm sure wand was just the local dialect term for the more internationally recognised 'rod, pole or perch' (they all mean the same thing, etymologically - a long thin piece of wood). It is believed that they were originally the poles used to drive oxen - long enough to tap an ox to get its attention without having to run up to it. Because medieval peasants measured land using these poles these terms have a double meaning - they are both a measure of length and of area. A rod/pole/perch is a quarter of an acre, but I believe when used as a measure of meadow it was being used as a measure of length, not area. It meant a strip of meadow one rod/pole/perch in width but as long as the meadow was deep, so the actual area was variable. Many meadows in open fields - and your one was in a Wilberfosse field - were ribbons of flood plain along the edge of a stream running between the arable furlongs, and each dole (ie share - called a dale up north, I gather) was a strip running down from the edge of the meadow to the stream, one rod/pole/perch in width but as long as the floodplain was wide. Rods/poles/perches varied in length according to where you were. The statutory r/p/p (used in all modern measurements) is sixteen and a half feet, but many manors and townships used r/p/ps of 16, 18, 20, 22 or even 24 feet. These could change the size of the local acre considerably - a 20 foot r/p/p produced an acre one and a half times the size of the statutory one; an acre measured with a 24 foot pole was 2.12 times as big. Woodland was often measured with a longer r/p/p than other land in same place. Rods/pole/perches were particularly likely to be odd lengths in Yorkshire; someone who researched it found that up there they varied from 17.5 to 24 feet, but 18 and 20 feet were the most common. It is surprising how many features of the modern landscape were determined by these measurements. If you walk down many village high streets, and even those in the older towns, you can often see that all the house plots or shops have the same frontage, or are multiples of the same basic frontage (where two or three plots have been combined). These basic frontages will usually be the local rod/pole/perch wide, laid out right back in the middle ages. It is also said that some churches were built in multiples of the local r/p/p - for example the chancel may be exactly one local r/p/p wide. I have also read of churches where the local r/p/p was carved in the side of the church, as a kind of master proof against which everyone's measurements could be checked."

Hey all, I recently acquired an old birth certificate of a relative, dating back to 1887. I was unsure what the father's occupation said, so I asked Judith to try and tell me what is says - which she very kindly did (a nail caster). What I am not sure of however is what a nail caster in 1887 actually did? Could it be the making of nails? I have uploaded the image to http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/message/an/topics.researchresources.translators/171 if you care to see it for youselves. Any help appreciated, Thanks, Simon _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live™ Messenger has arrived. Click here to download it for free! http://imagine-msn.com/messenger/launch80/?locale=en-gb

Thanks Eve, love the story that went with it. As was suggested by another reader I will try and scan the date and phrase and put it on a web site to see if anyone can work out that part. Lyn

Garth, Could the missing word in line 8 be 'corne'? The word seems to start with a 'c' amd corn would fit. Liz in Melbourne > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto:old-english- > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Garth Swanson > Sent: Wednesday, 18 October 2006 6:41 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: [OEL] Yorks will - 1559 - a synthesis > > Hello again > > Using your various contributions for which I am very grateful I have > synthesised a form of the transcription which I invite you to comment on. > Judith has seen this and has adjusted some of the typography to make it > consistent with list practice. Reference should be made to the original > manuscript at: > > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/unsolved41.html > > > 1. In dei no[m]i[n]e amen the sixt[h] day of Ap[ri]le in the yere of > o[u]r lord god m ccccc lix I w[illia]m lenge > 2. of nether catton husbandman being of p[er]fecte mynd & good > remembrance do make > 3. this my last will & testament as in forme followeth First I give > & bequeth my soull to > 4. almighty god to the blessed virgen marie & to all the celestiall > company of heven & my > 5. body to be buried in the p[ar]ishe churche yerd of catton It[em] > I bequeth to the sacrament xijd > 6. It[em] I give to Ric[hard] lenge my son my fermhold It[em] to the > said Ric[hard] my draught my > 7. wayn plough & all things belonging to them It[em] to the said > Ric[hard] I give my crops > 8. of ___ of ?the ground & vj wandes of ynge in wilberfosse fild > It[em] I give to Jane leng > 9. my daughter all my shepe on[e] waie & a counter my bed & on[e] > mattresse w[i]t[h] all thinges > 10. belonging ther[e]to It[em] I give to Rob[er]t lenge on[e] bushell > of whete & on[e] white headed > 11. stott It[em] I give to thomas nelis my best gray Jakett It[em] I > give to Jenet my doughter > 12. one bushell of whete It[em] I give to Alison sanderson on[e] > bushell of whete Item to > 13. Agnes my doughter on[e] bushell of whete It[em] I give to the > said Ric[hard] one cowe Item > 14. I will that the said Jane my daughter shall shifte w[i]t[h] > Ric[hard] all my goodes w[i]t[h]in the house / the residewe > 15. of my goodes my dettes paid & my funeralls discharged I give to > the said Ric[hard] whom I make my > 16. Executor of this my last will & testament Thes[e] being > record[e]rs of the same will & testament Rob[er]t > 17. Clerke John Smeton John Clerke & Thomas A_eth clerke & Curate > ther[e] / > > a. Et xxij die ap[ri]lis > b. anno d[omi]ni Mccccclixo probat[um] fuit hui[usm]o[d]i > test[ament]u[m] p[er] duos ?ve[nerun]t testes iurat &c Com[m]issaq[ue] > fuit ad > c. mi[ini]straco[em] bonor[um] Ric[hard]o filio soli Excut[or] > no[m]i[n]ato iura[men]to &c salvo iure cuiuscu[m]q[ue] > > I gather from Judith that it is the will without the Latin lines that will > appear on the web page to replace my original attempt. Please feel free to > comment before it is posted. > > Again thank you. > > Garth

I initiated a discussion of the meaning and significance of "wande" on the Yorksgen list. The following posted by Ian Hancock is particularly interesting and is copied here with his permission. Garth Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 21:28:14 +0100 From: Ian Hancock <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [YORKSGEN] wande To: [email protected] Garth, I have seen the term wande mentioned in connection with measuring meadow land. In the 16th and 17th century the communal meadow land for the village of Crakehall in the North Riding was still unenclosed. It was marked out (probably with big boundary stones) into several distinct areas called dales. Each farmer had a share of the meadow in each of the dales (according to the size of his farm) and each dale contained a certain number of ?wandes? or ?wands? of meadow (probably like strips in the open arable fields). So a farmer?s share of the meadow was described as, for example, ?5 wands in oxdale, 11 wands in ringdale, 8 wands in thackmyre?. The wand was probably what its name implies - a measuring stick that was used to measure out the amount of meadow each farmer was allowed to mow for hay in each dale. There are written records of farmers dealing in wands of meadow - for example, in 1611 John Clerke exchanged his share of a piece of land called Horsfall, for his cousin William Clerke?s ?long wande of meadow in the Fitts?. The size of a wande would be a custom of a particular manor - just a convenient and practical length for measuring - and would vary from village to village. If the manorial court records have survived for the place concerned, you might be able to get a better idea of exactly what the wande represented. Ian Hancock www.glenlodge.me.uk/crakehallindex.html

Yes, it could, Liz. It was suggested before but since there was so little to go on I thought I'd wait to see the film. However, I'll put it in on the web page with a question mark. cheers, Judith Salt Lake City, Utah, USA Administrator, OLD-ENGLISH-L http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ | Garth, | | Could the missing word in line 8 be 'corne'? The word seems to start with a | 'c' amd corn would fit. | | > 1. In dei no[m]i[n]e amen the sixt[h] day of Ap[ri]le in the yere of | > o[u]r lord god m ccccc lix I w[illia]m lenge | > 2. of nether catton husbandman being of p[er]fecte mynd & good | > remembrance do make | > 3. this my last will & testament as in forme followeth First I give | > & bequeth my soull to | > 4. almighty god to the blessed virgen marie & to all the celestiall | > company of heven & my | > 5. body to be buried in the p[ar]ishe churche yerd of catton It[em] | > I bequeth to the sacrament xijd | > 6. It[em] I give to Ric[hard] lenge my son my fermhold It[em] to the | > said Ric[hard] my draught my | > 7. wayn plough & all things belonging to them It[em] to the said | > Ric[hard] I give my crops | > 8. of ___ of ?the ground & vj wandes of ynge in wilberfosse fild | > It[em] I give to Jane leng

Hello again Using your various contributions for which I am very grateful I have synthesised a form of the transcription which I invite you to comment on. Judith has seen this and has adjusted some of the typography to make it consistent with list practice. Reference should be made to the original manuscript at: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/unsolved41.html 1. In dei no[m]i[n]e amen the sixt[h] day of Ap[ri]le in the yere of o[u]r lord god m ccccc lix I w[illia]m lenge 2. of nether catton husbandman being of p[er]fecte mynd & good remembrance do make 3. this my last will & testament as in forme followeth First I give & bequeth my soull to 4. almighty god to the blessed virgen marie & to all the celestiall company of heven & my 5. body to be buried in the p[ar]ishe churche yerd of catton It[em] I bequeth to the sacrament xijd 6. It[em] I give to Ric[hard] lenge my son my fermhold It[em] to the said Ric[hard] my draught my 7. wayn plough & all things belonging to them It[em] to the said Ric[hard] I give my crops 8. of ___ of ?the ground & vj wandes of ynge in wilberfosse fild It[em] I give to Jane leng 9. my daughter all my shepe on[e] waie & a counter my bed & on[e] mattresse w[i]t[h] all thinges 10. belonging ther[e]to It[em] I give to Rob[er]t lenge on[e] bushell of whete & on[e] white headed 11. stott It[em] I give to thomas nelis my best gray Jakett It[em] I give to Jenet my doughter 12. one bushell of whete It[em] I give to Alison sanderson on[e] bushell of whete Item to 13. Agnes my doughter on[e] bushell of whete It[em] I give to the said Ric[hard] one cowe Item 14. I will that the said Jane my daughter shall shifte w[i]t[h] Ric[hard] all my goodes w[i]t[h]in the house / the residewe 15. of my goodes my dettes paid & my funeralls discharged I give to the said Ric[hard] whom I make my 16. Executor of this my last will & testament Thes[e] being record[e]rs of the same will & testament Rob[er]t 17. Clerke John Smeton John Clerke & Thomas A_eth clerke & Curate ther[e] / a. Et xxij die ap[ri]lis b. anno d[omi]ni Mccccclixo probat[um] fuit hui[usm]o[d]i test[ament]u[m] p[er] duos ?ve[nerun]t testes iurat &c Com[m]issaq[ue] fuit ad c. mi[ini]straco[em] bonor[um] Ric[hard]o filio soli Excut[or] no[m]i[n]ato iura[men]to &c salvo iure cuiuscu[m]q[ue] I gather from Judith that it is the will without the Latin lines that will appear on the web page to replace my original attempt. Please feel free to comment before it is posted. Again thank you. Garth

Dear Debbie I should think it is pdt, abbreviated for predicto, i.e. anno predicto = the year aforesaid. In other words, it just means that it is 1691, as written at the beginning of the entry. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 5:00 PM Subject: [OEL] Anno pEd > I've come across a strange word in the baptismal registers of Cruwys > Morchard, Devon, in the year 1691. The vicar starts the year off by > recording some > of the baptisms in Latin, then he changes to English and the last few are > a > mixture of Latin and English. At the end of most of the baptisms is a > phrase > which looks like Anno pEd (or pld), eg, > > 1691 William Cruwys son of John Cruwys Esq and of Sarah his wife bapt 4th > Septem[ber] Anno pld > > There is a horizontal line across the top of the pEd/pld which I presume > is > some sort of contraction mark. Does anyone have any idea what this strange > abbreviation might mean? > > Debbie Kennett > CRUWYS one-name study > www.one-name.org/profiles/cruwys.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.13.4/477 - Release Date: 16/10/2006 > >

I think you'll find it really is spelt "Henerie". If you take a look at the Secretary Hand Alphabet on http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/handwriting.html , there are a couple of lower case 'e's that could easily be incorrectly read as 'o's. See the beginning of the 6th line. Cheers, Liz in Melbourne > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto:old-english- > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Le Bateman > Sent: Tuesday, 17 October 2006 5:01 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [OEL] Mediaeval French > > Does anyone know if Henry is spelled Honorio in 18th century documents. It > is supposed to be Henerie. I have been reading In Search of Your British > and > Irish Roots and this author said Henry was spelled his way in older > documents. > Le snip

Many thanks Audrey. I think you are quite right that the word is "p[re]d[icto]". I couldn't make out the squiggle between the p and the d which seemed to change shape every time I saw it. Now that it has been explained it all makes perfect sense. Debbie In a message dated 17/10/2006 21:12:50 GMT Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: Dear Debbie I should think it is pdt, abbreviated for predicto, i.e. anno predicto = the year aforesaid. In other words, it just means that it is 1691, as written at the beginning of the entry. Audrey

I've come across a strange word in the baptismal registers of Cruwys Morchard, Devon, in the year 1691. The vicar starts the year off by recording some of the baptisms in Latin, then he changes to English and the last few are a mixture of Latin and English. At the end of most of the baptisms is a phrase which looks like Anno pEd (or pld), eg, 1691 William Cruwys son of John Cruwys Esq and of Sarah his wife bapt 4th Septem[ber] Anno pld There is a horizontal line across the top of the pEd/pld which I presume is some sort of contraction mark. Does anyone have any idea what this strange abbreviation might mean? Debbie Kennett CRUWYS one-name study www.one-name.org/profiles/cruwys.html

Good thinking, Martyn. The OED entry for abut refers to "OFr. abouter ‘toucher par un bout,’ abouter à, sur, to border on (countries, estates)". Much better than bouter, to put. Cheers, Liz in Melbourne > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto:old-english- > [email protected]] On Behalf Of mjcl > Sent: Tuesday, 17 October 2006 8:31 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [OEL] Mediaeval French > > Barbara, > > With the other bits in place could I suggest that "se boute" could be > interpreted as "abuts" ...... just a thought. > > Martyn > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Barbara <[email protected]> > To: "[email protected] Com" <[email protected]> > Sent: Monday, 16 October, 2006 8:21:35 PM > Subject: [OEL] Mediaeval French > > > Can anyone translate this please: le graunde heye que se boute sur lewe de > Caldre? A combination of dictionaries and online translation tools gives > the Great Hey that pares itself on the water of the Calder' which fits > except for pares. I have passed this by one or two more knowledgeable > people than myself and they are stumped too. > > Also I have come across references to this Great Hey before and wondered > if > anyone would know exactly what the term hey would mean in the 13th > century. > The general area was probably heavily wooded at the time, with some > clearance and another document refers to the Great Hey and other common > woods so would it refer to an enclosure within a wooded area or a wood or > even an enclosed area for stock management, which is another > interpretation > I have come across. When the manor was divided between three people at > this > time they each received certain well defined areas but all were to share > the > profits of this particular piece of land. > > Very grateful for any help with these. > > Barbara > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to OLD-ENGLISH- > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the > subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to OLD-ENGLISH- > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the > subject and the body of the message

Hi all, Thanks for your help with this – you have all been brilliant. That is you have said, between you, what I hoped to hear! I am sure that the general meaning of abuts must be right and this narrows down the area where the ‘Great Hey’ must have been to the banks of the Calder which form the boundary of the manor for a mile or two. This being a woodland area generally (or was, previously) there are many instances of ‘hey’ in minor place names – as to exactly why this was named a hey is not yet entirely clear, it would seem to adjoin or at least be very close to the park (mentioned in the same document) so it may have been simply woodland whose resources were to be exploited in common by all three men or may have had some role in stock management. Further documents, if they exist, may shed light on this – but this is something of a breakthrough, only one published work on the town attempts to give a location for the Great Hey and that would now appear to be wrong. Thanks again, Barbara

Barbara Without being at all analytical, my impression from modern French is that it means: "The large hedge( perhaps meadow) adjoining Caldre's place((le) lieu)." I am sure that in the Midlands of England I have heard hay(e) in place names, e.g. Heath Hayes, referring to a field or meadow. Garth > From: "Barbara" <[email protected]> > Can anyone translate this please: ?le graunde heye que se boute sur lewe > de > Caldre??