In message <[email protected]>, Donald Tomkinson <[email protected]> writes >In his will of 1569 Henry Tomkinson bequeaths a coat to his servant >Richard Tomkinson. I understand that in those times it was common to >employ a young relative as a personal servant. Can anyone comment on >this practice and know how young the boys could be? It was common to farm out your teenagers into the households of (better off) relatives - very convenient if your son was an orphan and needed male input. They could start quite young, though on the whole, if they were to be useful, 12 was about the lower limit. And if the lad was inheriting (uncle)'s garments, he was probably somewhere close in size. -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

Is it possible that a son acted as an appraiser with others to his father's will in 1556, although it was probably incorrect? I have certainly found nephews acting in that capacity. Don Tomkinson

Thanks Judith. The problem is that the copy of the will supplied to me was not in grey scale either. I agree it would have been easier if it were. I've had another reply off list quoting an 1842 book about the Two Sicilies which says that officials used Neapolitan Ducats but merchants used the oncia (ounce) divided into 30 Taris, which in turn were divided into 20 grains. An Oncia was worth about 10shillings in English money - ie about half one English pound. That's in 1842 values. Christopher Judith Werner wrote: > Hi Chris. > > The sum is actually Thirteen rather than Fourteen. > > This would have been easier to read had it been scanned on photo or > grayscale setting instead of black and white. The latter turns every > pixel into either black or white -- no shades of gray -- so you lose a > *lot* of detail. > > Perhaps it's all you have but I thought I'd mention it so people know > to use grayscale/photo setting whenever possible. > > cheers, > > Judith Werner > Salt Lake City, Utah, USA > Administrator, OLD-ENGLISH-L > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > > > > | This is the will of Benjamin Ingham, made in Palermo in 1861 and > proved > | there but then proved again in London in 1871. This is from the > London > | copy. The extract reads: > | > | Article 6 > | > | I give and bequeath to Don Frederico Ascenso e Spadafora Duke of > Santa > | Rosalia another son of my said Wife by her first husband and to the > said > | Don Gar??olo and Don Domenico Ascenso e Spadafora the sun of Fourteen > | thousand and twenty eight o??nces ten tazi and ten grains (?) in the > | proportion between them as hereinafter stated and with right > f ------ > | ------ between them in case that any one cannot or will not accept > the > | present legacy and with the positive prohibition of not being > | susceptible of ?????? not assignment nor even of being ?????ed. to > wit > | ??? first ??? Duke of Santa Rosalia the sum of four thousand /Ounces/ > in > | usufruct only to be enjoyed for the whole term of his natural life > the > | Ownership in reversion I give and bequeath to his daughter Donna > | Francesca Ascenso Duchess of ______ wife of Don > | > | The extract is posted at: > | http://www.cmr1chards.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/transcription.htm > | > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > >

In his will of 1569 Henry Tomkinson bequeaths a coat to his servant Richard Tomkinson. I understand that in those times it was common to employ a young relative as a personal servant. Can anyone comment on this practice and know how young the boys could be? Don Tomkinson

Hi Chris. The sum is actually Thirteen rather than Fourteen. This would have been easier to read had it been scanned on photo or grayscale setting instead of black and white. The latter turns every pixel into either black or white -- no shades of gray -- so you lose a *lot* of detail. Perhaps it's all you have but I thought I'd mention it so people know to use grayscale/photo setting whenever possible. cheers, Judith Werner Salt Lake City, Utah, USA Administrator, OLD-ENGLISH-L http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ | This is the will of Benjamin Ingham, made in Palermo in 1861 and proved | there but then proved again in London in 1871. This is from the London | copy. The extract reads: | | Article 6 | | I give and bequeath to Don Frederico Ascenso e Spadafora Duke of Santa | Rosalia another son of my said Wife by her first husband and to the said | Don Gar??olo and Don Domenico Ascenso e Spadafora the sun of Fourteen | thousand and twenty eight o??nces ten tazi and ten grains (?) in the | proportion between them as hereinafter stated and with right f ------ | ------ between them in case that any one cannot or will not accept the | present legacy and with the positive prohibition of not being | susceptible of ?????? not assignment nor even of being ?????ed. to wit | ??? first ??? Duke of Santa Rosalia the sum of four thousand /Ounces/ in | usufruct only to be enjoyed for the whole term of his natural life the | Ownership in reversion I give and bequeath to his daughter Donna | Francesca Ascenso Duchess of ______ wife of Don | | The extract is posted at: | http://www.cmr1chards.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/transcription.htm |

I had a chance to look at this will on the film and can confirm everything is as we thought, except possibly 'corne' since some of the letters are faded to nothing; however, as Liz said, corne fits what is there. The curate's name looks to be Acreth but I can't be sure of the second and third letters. http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/unsolved41.html cheers, Judith Werner Salt Lake City, Utah, USA Administrator, OLD-ENGLISH-L http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/

Are they pennies? Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roy" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 6:18 PM Subject: Re: [OEL] 1861 will problems > That’s excellent - Had the - "Denari" - the same value I wonder as we > sometimes see in early English wills? > > > Kind Regards > Roy LD Cox > Family Historian > Member of SA&NHS Member No. 1066 (And all That!) Web Site: > www.coxresearcher.com/index.htm I also use www.archivecdbooks.com and > www.localhistory.co.uk/ambra for my research > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Christopher M > Richards > Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 12:03 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [OEL] 1861 will problems > > I had a further thought - translated Ounce into Italian "Oncia" and then > found this via Google: > > The Kingdom of Two Sicilies was formed by the merger of the Kingdom of > Sicily and the Kingdom of Naples on December 8, 1816. Before 1800, Sicily > had used the Oncia (XITO) as their unit of account from the 1500s until > occupation by France in 1806. The Oncia was divisible into 2.5 Scudi, 5 > Fiorini, 30 Tari, 60 Carlini, 450 Ponti, 600 Grani or 3600 Piccioli. > Naples > had relied on the Ducato (XITD) as its unit of account from the 1500s > until > the 1800s. The Ducato was divisible into 5 Tarini, 10 Carlini, 40 > Cinquini, > 100 Grani, 200 Tornesi, 300 Quatrini, 600 Piccioli or 1200 Denari > > So what I thought was tazi is actually tari. Unlike oncia and grani it > doesn't have an English equivalent so it wasn't translated. > > Christopher > > Roy wrote: >> Good Morning - >> >> Sounds like gold or silver to me - [Fourteen thousand and twenty >> eight o??nces] ounces? >> >> I think this may be TROY weight used for these minerals, but 'tazi' >> doesn't make sense. >> >> Grains are used in this measure and that of Apothecaries. >> >> >> Kind Regards >> Roy LD Cox >> Family Historian >> Member of SA&NHS Member No. 1066 (And all That!) Web Site: >> www.coxresearcher.com/index.htm I also use www.archivecdbooks.com and >> www.localhistory.co.uk/ambra for my research -----Original >> Message----- >> From: [email protected] >> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Christopher M >> Richards >> Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 11:34 AM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: [OEL] 1861 will problems >> >> This is the will of Benjamin Ingham, made in Palermo in 1861 and >> proved there but then proved again in London in 1871. This is from the > London copy. >> The extract reads: >> >> Article 6 >> >> I give and bequeath to Don Frederico Ascenso e Spadafora Duke of Santa >> Rosalia another son of my said Wife by her first husband and to the >> said Don Gar??olo and Don Domenico Ascenso e Spadafora the sun of >> Fourteen thousand and twenty eight o??nces ten tazi and ten grains (?) >> in the proportion between them as hereinafter stated and with right of >> ------ >> ------ between them in case that any one cannot or will not accept the >> present legacy and with the positive prohibition of not being >> susceptible of ?????? not assignment nor even of being ?????ed. to wit >> ??? first ??? Duke of Santa Rosalia the sum of four thousand /Ounces/ >> in usufruct only to be enjoyed for the whole term of his natural life >> the Ownership in reversion I give and bequeath to his daughter Donna >> Francesca Ascenso Duchess of ______ wife of Don >> >> The extract is posted at: >> http://www.cmr1chards.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/transcription.htm >> >> My main question is what the currency is? By 1861 The Bourbon Kingdom >> of the Two Sicilies had been defeated by Garibaldi but the will states >> that it was the will of Benjamin Ingham resident of Palermo in the >> Kingdom of the two Sicilies so he is probably still using the curency of > the that Kingdom. >> Google hasn't helped so far with this. >> >> Christopher Richards >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> -- >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >> Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.16/504 - Release Date: >> 27/10/2006 >> >> >> > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.16/504 - Release Date: > 27/10/2006 > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.16/504 - Release Date: > 27/10/2006 > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.11/493 - Release Date: 23/10/2006

That’s excellent - Had the - "Denari" - the same value I wonder as we sometimes see in early English wills? Kind Regards Roy LD Cox Family Historian Member of SA&NHS Member No. 1066 (And all That!) Web Site: www.coxresearcher.com/index.htm I also use www.archivecdbooks.com and www.localhistory.co.uk/ambra for my research -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Christopher M Richards Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 12:03 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [OEL] 1861 will problems I had a further thought - translated Ounce into Italian "Oncia" and then found this via Google: The Kingdom of Two Sicilies was formed by the merger of the Kingdom of Sicily and the Kingdom of Naples on December 8, 1816. Before 1800, Sicily had used the Oncia (XITO) as their unit of account from the 1500s until occupation by France in 1806. The Oncia was divisible into 2.5 Scudi, 5 Fiorini, 30 Tari, 60 Carlini, 450 Ponti, 600 Grani or 3600 Piccioli. Naples had relied on the Ducato (XITD) as its unit of account from the 1500s until the 1800s. The Ducato was divisible into 5 Tarini, 10 Carlini, 40 Cinquini, 100 Grani, 200 Tornesi, 300 Quatrini, 600 Piccioli or 1200 Denari So what I thought was tazi is actually tari. Unlike oncia and grani it doesn't have an English equivalent so it wasn't translated. Christopher Roy wrote: > Good Morning - > > Sounds like gold or silver to me - [Fourteen thousand and twenty > eight o??nces] ounces? > > I think this may be TROY weight used for these minerals, but 'tazi' > doesn't make sense. > > Grains are used in this measure and that of Apothecaries. > > > Kind Regards > Roy LD Cox > Family Historian > Member of SA&NHS Member No. 1066 (And all That!) Web Site: > www.coxresearcher.com/index.htm I also use www.archivecdbooks.com and > www.localhistory.co.uk/ambra for my research -----Original > Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Christopher M > Richards > Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 11:34 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: [OEL] 1861 will problems > > This is the will of Benjamin Ingham, made in Palermo in 1861 and > proved there but then proved again in London in 1871. This is from the London copy. > The extract reads: > > Article 6 > > I give and bequeath to Don Frederico Ascenso e Spadafora Duke of Santa > Rosalia another son of my said Wife by her first husband and to the > said Don Gar??olo and Don Domenico Ascenso e Spadafora the sun of > Fourteen thousand and twenty eight o??nces ten tazi and ten grains (?) > in the proportion between them as hereinafter stated and with right of > ------ > ------ between them in case that any one cannot or will not accept the > present legacy and with the positive prohibition of not being > susceptible of ?????? not assignment nor even of being ?????ed. to wit > ??? first ??? Duke of Santa Rosalia the sum of four thousand /Ounces/ > in usufruct only to be enjoyed for the whole term of his natural life > the Ownership in reversion I give and bequeath to his daughter Donna > Francesca Ascenso Duchess of ______ wife of Don > > The extract is posted at: > http://www.cmr1chards.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/transcription.htm > > My main question is what the currency is? By 1861 The Bourbon Kingdom > of the Two Sicilies had been defeated by Garibaldi but the will states > that it was the will of Benjamin Ingham resident of Palermo in the > Kingdom of the two Sicilies so he is probably still using the curency of the that Kingdom. > Google hasn't helped so far with this. > > Christopher Richards > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.16/504 - Release Date: > 27/10/2006 > > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.16/504 - Release Date: 27/10/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.16/504 - Release Date: 27/10/2006

I had a further thought - translated Ounce into Italian "Oncia" and then found this via Google: The Kingdom of Two Sicilies was formed by the merger of the Kingdom of Sicily and the Kingdom of Naples on December 8, 1816. Before 1800, Sicily had used the Oncia (XITO) as their unit of account from the 1500s until occupation by France in 1806. The Oncia was divisible into 2.5 Scudi, 5 Fiorini, 30 Tari, 60 Carlini, 450 Ponti, 600 Grani or 3600 Piccioli. Naples had relied on the Ducato (XITD) as its unit of account from the 1500s until the 1800s. The Ducato was divisible into 5 Tarini, 10 Carlini, 40 Cinquini, 100 Grani, 200 Tornesi, 300 Quatrini, 600 Piccioli or 1200 Denari So what I thought was tazi is actually tari. Unlike oncia and grani it doesn't have an English equivalent so it wasn't translated. Christopher Roy wrote: > Good Morning - > > Sounds like gold or silver to me - [Fourteen thousand and twenty eight > o??nces] ounces? > > I think this may be TROY weight used for these minerals, but 'tazi' doesn't > make sense. > > Grains are used in this measure and that of Apothecaries. > > > Kind Regards > Roy LD Cox > Family Historian > Member of SA&NHS Member No. 1066 (And all That!) Web Site: > www.coxresearcher.com/index.htm I also use www.archivecdbooks.com and > www.localhistory.co.uk/ambra for my research > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Christopher M > Richards > Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 11:34 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: [OEL] 1861 will problems > > This is the will of Benjamin Ingham, made in Palermo in 1861 and proved > there but then proved again in London in 1871. This is from the London copy. > The extract reads: > > Article 6 > > I give and bequeath to Don Frederico Ascenso e Spadafora Duke of Santa > Rosalia another son of my said Wife by her first husband and to the said Don > Gar??olo and Don Domenico Ascenso e Spadafora the sun of Fourteen thousand > and twenty eight o??nces ten tazi and ten grains (?) in the proportion > between them as hereinafter stated and with right of ------ > ------ between them in case that any one cannot or will not accept the > present legacy and with the positive prohibition of not being susceptible of > ?????? not assignment nor even of being ?????ed. to wit ??? first ??? Duke > of Santa Rosalia the sum of four thousand /Ounces/ in usufruct only to be > enjoyed for the whole term of his natural life the Ownership in reversion I > give and bequeath to his daughter Donna Francesca Ascenso Duchess of ______ > wife of Don > > The extract is posted at: > http://www.cmr1chards.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/transcription.htm > > My main question is what the currency is? By 1861 The Bourbon Kingdom of > the Two Sicilies had been defeated by Garibaldi but the will states that it > was the will of Benjamin Ingham resident of Palermo in the Kingdom of the > two Sicilies so he is probably still using the curency of the that Kingdom. > Google hasn't helped so far with this. > > Christopher Richards > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.16/504 - Release Date: 27/10/2006 > > >

That was a quick response. The rest of the context suggests he was talking about currency. The English bequests are in pound sterling. And I think this may be a another currency in the same format like Pounds Shillings and Pence. Googling did show that there were many currencies in Europe with the same structure before they all became metric. It's quite a difficult secretary hand so others may not agree with my transcription. Christopher Roy wrote: > Good Morning - > > Sounds like gold or silver to me - [Fourteen thousand and twenty eight > o??nces] ounces? > > I think this may be TROY weight used for these minerals, but 'tazi' doesn't > make sense. > > Grains are used in this measure and that of Apothecaries. > > > Kind Regards > Roy LD Cox > Family Historian > Member of SA&NHS Member No. 1066 (And all That!) Web Site: > www.coxresearcher.com/index.htm I also use www.archivecdbooks.com and > www.localhistory.co.uk/ambra for my research > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Christopher M > Richards > Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 11:34 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: [OEL] 1861 will problems > > This is the will of Benjamin Ingham, made in Palermo in 1861 and proved > there but then proved again in London in 1871. This is from the London copy. > The extract reads: > > Article 6 > > I give and bequeath to Don Frederico Ascenso e Spadafora Duke of Santa > Rosalia another son of my said Wife by her first husband and to the said Don > Gar??olo and Don Domenico Ascenso e Spadafora the sun of Fourteen thousand > and twenty eight o??nces ten tazi and ten grains (?) in the proportion > between them as hereinafter stated and with right of ------ > ------ between them in case that any one cannot or will not accept the > present legacy and with the positive prohibition of not being susceptible of > ?????? not assignment nor even of being ?????ed. to wit ??? first ??? Duke > of Santa Rosalia the sum of four thousand /Ounces/ in usufruct only to be > enjoyed for the whole term of his natural life the Ownership in reversion I > give and bequeath to his daughter Donna Francesca Ascenso Duchess of ______ > wife of Don > > The extract is posted at: > http://www.cmr1chards.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/transcription.htm > > My main question is what the currency is? By 1861 The Bourbon Kingdom of > the Two Sicilies had been defeated by Garibaldi but the will states that it > was the will of Benjamin Ingham resident of Palermo in the Kingdom of the > two Sicilies so he is probably still using the curency of the that Kingdom. > Google hasn't helped so far with this. > > Christopher Richards > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.16/504 - Release Date: 27/10/2006 > > >

Good Morning - Sounds like gold or silver to me - [Fourteen thousand and twenty eight o??nces] ounces? I think this may be TROY weight used for these minerals, but 'tazi' doesn't make sense. Grains are used in this measure and that of Apothecaries. Kind Regards Roy LD Cox Family Historian Member of SA&NHS Member No. 1066 (And all That!) Web Site: www.coxresearcher.com/index.htm I also use www.archivecdbooks.com and www.localhistory.co.uk/ambra for my research -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Christopher M Richards Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 11:34 AM To: [email protected] Subject: [OEL] 1861 will problems This is the will of Benjamin Ingham, made in Palermo in 1861 and proved there but then proved again in London in 1871. This is from the London copy. The extract reads: Article 6 I give and bequeath to Don Frederico Ascenso e Spadafora Duke of Santa Rosalia another son of my said Wife by her first husband and to the said Don Gar??olo and Don Domenico Ascenso e Spadafora the sun of Fourteen thousand and twenty eight o??nces ten tazi and ten grains (?) in the proportion between them as hereinafter stated and with right of ------ ------ between them in case that any one cannot or will not accept the present legacy and with the positive prohibition of not being susceptible of ?????? not assignment nor even of being ?????ed. to wit ??? first ??? Duke of Santa Rosalia the sum of four thousand /Ounces/ in usufruct only to be enjoyed for the whole term of his natural life the Ownership in reversion I give and bequeath to his daughter Donna Francesca Ascenso Duchess of ______ wife of Don The extract is posted at: http://www.cmr1chards.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/transcription.htm My main question is what the currency is? By 1861 The Bourbon Kingdom of the Two Sicilies had been defeated by Garibaldi but the will states that it was the will of Benjamin Ingham resident of Palermo in the Kingdom of the two Sicilies so he is probably still using the curency of the that Kingdom. Google hasn't helped so far with this. Christopher Richards ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.16/504 - Release Date: 27/10/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.16/504 - Release Date: 27/10/2006

This is the will of Benjamin Ingham, made in Palermo in 1861 and proved there but then proved again in London in 1871. This is from the London copy. The extract reads: Article 6 I give and bequeath to Don Frederico Ascenso e Spadafora Duke of Santa Rosalia another son of my said Wife by her first husband and to the said Don Gar??olo and Don Domenico Ascenso e Spadafora the sun of Fourteen thousand and twenty eight o??nces ten tazi and ten grains (?) in the proportion between them as hereinafter stated and with right of ------ ------ between them in case that any one cannot or will not accept the present legacy and with the positive prohibition of not being susceptible of ?????? not assignment nor even of being ?????ed. to wit ??? first ??? Duke of Santa Rosalia the sum of four thousand /Ounces/ in usufruct only to be enjoyed for the whole term of his natural life the Ownership in reversion I give and bequeath to his daughter Donna Francesca Ascenso Duchess of ______ wife of Don The extract is posted at: http://www.cmr1chards.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/transcription.htm My main question is what the currency is? By 1861 The Bourbon Kingdom of the Two Sicilies had been defeated by Garibaldi but the will states that it was the will of Benjamin Ingham resident of Palermo in the Kingdom of the two Sicilies so he is probably still using the curency of the that Kingdom. Google hasn't helped so far with this. Christopher Richards

William Radcliffe, a contemporary and friend of Richard Arkwright (he who invented the water frame for spinning cotton mechanically), invented the first water powered carding machine. I'm not sure which mill now houses the example of this. It may be Cromford, Derbyshire. William Radcliffe, with partners, owned a spinning mill in Mellor, Arkwright owned a lot of land in Mellor and his descendants bought the largest mill, Mellor Mill, from the stepbrother of Samuel Oldknow who pioneered the spinning of muslin thread. William Radcliffe was a friend of Oldknow and wrote a book called "The Origins of Power Loom Weaving". He was thrice mayor of Stockport, owning another mill there. His family were attacked in their home by Luddites who threw his wife down the stairs, resulting in her death. William Radcliffe, on the other hand, escaped and died much later, apparently penniless, as the members of the church he attended had a whip round for his funeral. There is a portrait of William in the Manchester Museum. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "maggie and adrian" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 1:42 AM Subject: Re: [OEL] Occupation Translation > Birmingham directory 1830 has "Samuel Ashton, iron founder and cast nail > manufacturer". Possibly some heavier nails were cast? Or could this be > nails used on early carding machines? > > Adrian Verry > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.13.4/477 - Release Date: 16/10/2006 > >

Good Morning Polly and thanks for this info - However I may have solved the problem, apparently there are pieces of metal called Cast Star nails, the like which are used on a variety of metal decorative works where a hole is bored in the metal strip and the star nail inserted. There are probably other cast shapes which one supposes will describe that desired but I have only just come across this one mentioned in a Google search, the description "Star" indicating the head of the nail to be that shape. When this discussion first started I couldn't believe that a cast nail would stand up to any of the stresses of holding two pieces of wood together! Kind Regards Roy LD Cox Family Historian Member of SA&NHS Member No. 1066 (And all That!) Web Site: www.coxresearcher.com/index.htm I also use www.archivecdbooks.com and www.localhistory.co.uk/ambra for my research -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Polly Rubery Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2006 9:26 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [OEL] Occupation Translation Hi Roy A *nailer* would make "cut" nails - the normal method for most common types of nails - hence the distinction of a "nail caster" for someone who made the more specialised cast nails. As I think has been mentioned these were often of other metals than iron, where making them from the sheet was not an option. Polly ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roy" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2006 7:58 PM Subject: Re: [OEL] Occupation Translation Hi Ros - Thanks for this interesting info - one has to wonder now how the word CASTER was linked to a person who cuts sheet metal in to strips of nails rather than being a "Nail Cutter" ? No doubt about them being metal workers. Kind Regards Roy LD Cox Family Historian Member of SA&NHS Member No. 1066 (And all That!) Web Site: www.coxresearcher.com/index.htm I also use www.archivecdbooks.com and www.localhistory.co.uk/ambra for my research -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ros Jarvis Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 9:10 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [OEL] Occupation Translation my family were nail caster in Brum for nigh on hundred years and they made nails - they were variously described as brass nail casters, iron nail casters and nail casters but they were definitiely metal workers. Ros ----- Original Message ----- From: "John" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 1:20 AM Subject: Re: [OEL] Occupation Translation > The problem is that nails tended to be cut rather than cast, the > problem with cast iron being that it is totally unsuited to making > nails. We really need to look for either an alternative meaning for > nail, or and alternative meaning for cast. > This is why I was asking for context. A nail can be a measure of cloth > and a nail is also the name for the wire in a cotton comb. > > John > > > At 00:54 20/10/2006, you wrote: >>Sounds like you've guessed rightly. >> >>Audrey >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Simon Beck" <[email protected]> >>To: <[email protected]> >>Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 6:03 PM >>Subject: [OEL] Occupation Translation >> >> >> > Hey all, >> > >> > I recently acquired an old birth certificate of a relative, dating >> > back >> > to >> > 1887. I was unsure what the father's occupation said, so I asked >> > Judith >> > to >> > try and tell me what is says - which she very kindly did (a nail >> > caster). >> > >> > What I am not sure of however is what a nail caster in 1887 >> > actually did? >> > Could it be the making of nails? >> > >> > I have uploaded the image to >> > >> http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/message/an/topics.researchresources.transl ators/171 >> > if you care to see it for youselves. > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.9/490 - Release Date: 20/10/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.9/490 - Release Date: 20/10/2006 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.9/490 - Release Date: 20/10/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.9/490 - Release Date: 20/10/2006

Hi Roy A *nailer* would make "cut" nails - the normal method for most common types of nails - hence the distinction of a "nail caster" for someone who made the more specialised cast nails. As I think has been mentioned these were often of other metals than iron, where making them from the sheet was not an option. Polly ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roy" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2006 7:58 PM Subject: Re: [OEL] Occupation Translation Hi Ros - Thanks for this interesting info - one has to wonder now how the word CASTER was linked to a person who cuts sheet metal in to strips of nails rather than being a "Nail Cutter" ? No doubt about them being metal workers. Kind Regards Roy LD Cox Family Historian Member of SA&NHS Member No. 1066 (And all That!) Web Site: www.coxresearcher.com/index.htm I also use www.archivecdbooks.com and www.localhistory.co.uk/ambra for my research -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ros Jarvis Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 9:10 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [OEL] Occupation Translation my family were nail caster in Brum for nigh on hundred years and they made nails - they were variously described as brass nail casters, iron nail casters and nail casters but they were definitiely metal workers. Ros ----- Original Message ----- From: "John" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 1:20 AM Subject: Re: [OEL] Occupation Translation > The problem is that nails tended to be cut rather than cast, the > problem with cast iron being that it is totally unsuited to making > nails. We really need to look for either an alternative meaning for > nail, or and alternative meaning for cast. > This is why I was asking for context. A nail can be a measure of > cloth and a nail is also the name for the wire in a cotton comb. > > John > > > At 00:54 20/10/2006, you wrote: >>Sounds like you've guessed rightly. >> >>Audrey >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Simon Beck" <[email protected]> >>To: <[email protected]> >>Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 6:03 PM >>Subject: [OEL] Occupation Translation >> >> >> > Hey all, >> > >> > I recently acquired an old birth certificate of a relative, dating back >> > to >> > 1887. I was unsure what the father's occupation said, so I asked Judith >> > to >> > try and tell me what is says - which she very kindly did (a nail >> > caster). >> > >> > What I am not sure of however is what a nail caster in 1887 actually >> > did? >> > Could it be the making of nails? >> > >> > I have uploaded the image to >> > >> http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/message/an/topics.researchresources.transl ators/171 >> > if you care to see it for youselves. > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.9/490 - Release Date: 20/10/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.9/490 - Release Date: 20/10/2006 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Ros - Thanks for this interesting info - one has to wonder now how the word CASTER was linked to a person who cuts sheet metal in to strips of nails rather than being a "Nail Cutter" ? No doubt about them being metal workers. Kind Regards Roy LD Cox Family Historian Member of SA&NHS Member No. 1066 (And all That!) Web Site: www.coxresearcher.com/index.htm I also use www.archivecdbooks.com and www.localhistory.co.uk/ambra for my research -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ros Jarvis Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 9:10 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [OEL] Occupation Translation my family were nail caster in Brum for nigh on hundred years and they made nails - they were variously described as brass nail casters, iron nail casters and nail casters but they were definitiely metal workers. Ros ----- Original Message ----- From: "John" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 1:20 AM Subject: Re: [OEL] Occupation Translation > The problem is that nails tended to be cut rather than cast, the > problem with cast iron being that it is totally unsuited to making > nails. We really need to look for either an alternative meaning for > nail, or and alternative meaning for cast. > This is why I was asking for context. A nail can be a measure of > cloth and a nail is also the name for the wire in a cotton comb. > > John > > > At 00:54 20/10/2006, you wrote: >>Sounds like you've guessed rightly. >> >>Audrey >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Simon Beck" <[email protected]> >>To: <[email protected]> >>Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 6:03 PM >>Subject: [OEL] Occupation Translation >> >> >> > Hey all, >> > >> > I recently acquired an old birth certificate of a relative, dating back >> > to >> > 1887. I was unsure what the father's occupation said, so I asked Judith >> > to >> > try and tell me what is says - which she very kindly did (a nail >> > caster). >> > >> > What I am not sure of however is what a nail caster in 1887 actually >> > did? >> > Could it be the making of nails? >> > >> > I have uploaded the image to >> > >> http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/message/an/topics.researchresources.transl ators/171 >> > if you care to see it for youselves. > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.9/490 - Release Date: 20/10/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.9/490 - Release Date: 20/10/2006

my family were nail caster in Brum for nigh on hundred years and they made nails - they were variously described as brass nail casters, iron nail casters and nail casters but they were definitiely metal workers. Ros ----- Original Message ----- From: "John" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 1:20 AM Subject: Re: [OEL] Occupation Translation > The problem is that nails tended to be cut rather than cast, the > problem with cast iron being that it is totally unsuited to making > nails. We really need to look for either an alternative meaning for > nail, or and alternative meaning for cast. > This is why I was asking for context. A nail can be a measure of > cloth and a nail is also the name for the wire in a cotton comb. > > John > > > At 00:54 20/10/2006, you wrote: >>Sounds like you've guessed rightly. >> >>Audrey >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Simon Beck" <[email protected]> >>To: <[email protected]> >>Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 6:03 PM >>Subject: [OEL] Occupation Translation >> >> >> > Hey all, >> > >> > I recently acquired an old birth certificate of a relative, dating back >> > to >> > 1887. I was unsure what the father's occupation said, so I asked Judith >> > to >> > try and tell me what is says - which she very kindly did (a nail >> > caster). >> > >> > What I am not sure of however is what a nail caster in 1887 actually >> > did? >> > Could it be the making of nails? >> > >> > I have uploaded the image to >> > >> http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/message/an/topics.researchresources.translators/171 >> > if you care to see it for youselves. > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Birmingham directory 1830 has "Samuel Ashton, iron founder and cast nail manufacturer". Possibly some heavier nails were cast? Or could this be nails used on early carding machines? Adrian Verry

Rodney Hall page comes up well again: (a) Made iron nails by hand More Info (b)Maintained the teeth (nails) on the carding machine used on wool & cotton before weaving Then get the "more info" coming up in a sub-window. Jo.

Hi Simon This book might be useful if you can get hold of a copy at a library "Glory Gone: The History of Nailing in Bromsgrove" Bill Kings and Margaret Cooper. An excerpt from the description - Nailmaking was a clemmin' trade, whose workers toiled for incredibly long hours in unhealthy surroundings for wages often barely above starvation level. In 1896 a journalist wrote that behind the 'bright and sweet and clean' facade were the worst paid of all the 'white slaves' of England, the nailers: '... one can pass in one minute from prosperous burgherdom to the lowest slavery'. regards Lyn in Oz ----- Original Message ----- From: "Simon Beck" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 3:03 AM Subject: [OEL] Occupation Translation > Hey all, > > I recently acquired an old birth certificate of a relative, dating back to > 1887. I was unsure what the father's occupation said, so I asked Judith to > try and tell me what is says - which she very kindly did (a nail caster). > > What I am not sure of however is what a nail caster in 1887 actually did? > Could it be the making of nails? > > I have uploaded the image to > http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/message/an/topics.researchresources.translators/171 > if you care to see it for youselves. > > Any help appreciated, > > Thanks, > > Simon > > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows LiveT Messenger has arrived. Click here to download it for free! > http://imagine-msn.com/messenger/launch80/?locale=en-gb > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message