Hello Everyone - Myself and my dear wife June, would like to wish all, as enjoyable and happy a Christmas that you may be able to, and may the New Year be more pleasant than has been the previous one; remembering all those who are not able to be with their families. Sincerely Roy & June Cox in the Wet-Wet-Wet South of England!

And a couple more references: http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1828looms.html and http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1823cotton.html Liz in smoky Melbourne

And Christmas 'looming' too. (Sorry!) Lancashire, Liz, and the transitional period from handlooms weaving (which I think is what you seem to be talking about) and the advent of power loom weaving. Started by a phrase in a document that puzzled me, referring to the possible use of power looms in a particular town before the time when published works say they arrived in the town. Barbara -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Liz Parkinson Sent: 13 December 2006 21:15 To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [OEL] Power Looms My life is beyond chaotic at present with lots of sick elderly relatives in various parts of the country and I havent been following this thread, but it has suddenly dawned on me that upstairs on my landing I have an antique spinning wheel, dating to earlyish 19thC I am told, and there was at one stage a very large loom which wove wool, up to about 24" wide, which was wide for its time, but I dont know what time that was, if you get my meaning, my grandad certainly used it, I have fabric woven on it. But it wasnt new to him I dont think, I think it was passed down. So what part of the country are we talking about with these looms? I have missed that bit. Liz - harrassed in Stockport UK

My life is beyond chaotic at present with lots of sick elderly relatives in various parts of the country and I havent been following this thread, but it has suddenly dawned on me that upstairs on my landing I have an antique spinning wheel, dating to earlyish 19thC I am told, and there was at one stage a very large loom which wove wool, up to about 24" wide, which was wide for its time, but I dont know what time that was, if you get my meaning, my grandad certainly used it, I have fabric woven on it. But it wasnt new to him I dont think, I think it was passed down. So what part of the country are we talking about with these looms? I have missed that bit. Liz - harrassed in Stockport UK > >Thank you for these Barbara. I am the daughter of a weaver and feel >slightly >ashamed that I don’t know more about the subject. I know the basics and the >effects of the cotton industry on the town – but the mechanics! (But then I >don’t understand how the machine I am using right now works either.) If >these allowances were for power looms on farms (and I still don’t know this >for sure) then they had (oh – shouldn’t use that word!) to be powered by >water and checking an early map and personal knowledge of the area, it >seems >that all the places mentioned did have access to running water, one of them >possibly by a purpose built conduit, which I first saw two years ago and >wondered why it was needed. > _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live™ Messenger has arrived. Click here to download it for free! http://imagine-msn.com/messenger/launch80/?locale=en-gb

Thank you for these Barbara. I am the daughter of a weaver and feel slightly ashamed that I don’t know more about the subject. I know the basics and the effects of the cotton industry on the town – but the mechanics! (But then I don’t understand how the machine I am using right now works either.) If these allowances were for power looms on farms (and I still don’t know this for sure) then they had (oh – shouldn’t use that word!) to be powered by water and checking an early map and personal knowledge of the area, it seems that all the places mentioned did have access to running water, one of them possibly by a purpose built conduit, which I first saw two years ago and wondered why it was needed. Current knowledge says that handloom weaving took place here (wool first, later cotton) for several centuries and was not superseded by power until 1844 (despite great hardship at times) when the first true factory was built here. If this really does indicate the use of power looms then it adds to the history of the town. Thanks again, Barbara -----Original Message----- From: Barb Johnson [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: 13 December 2006 20:10 To: Barbara Subject: Re: [OEL] Power Looms Being a weaver myself thought I knew what they were but did a search, don't know if this help anyone but some sites. http://www.nps.gov/archive/lowe/loweweb/Lowell_History/powerlooms.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_loom Barbara Johnson Barbara <[email protected]> wrote: Thank you for this Audrey, A little bit 'late' for me this - my understanding of machinery of all kinds very sketchy and I was struggling with the idea of power looms in a private dwelling, even in an outhouse of some kind. However, this reply "that many very small places like farms had 3 or 4 looms and would use water power but created a small lodge to hold water until needed so that the flow would be even", received from someone with a good knowledge of the industrial history of this area, seems to tie in with the information you provided. I have got a couple more contacts to try and will see if they agree that this is possible for this area. If so it is the first time I have heard of it here, not being mentioned in any general history books about the area or those on industrial archaeology. Thanks again for your trouble, Barbara -----Original Message----- From: norman lee [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: 12 December 2006 23:44 To: Barbara; [email protected] Com Subject: Re: [OEL] Power looms? Dear Barbara I have a copy of a privately published book by William Radcliffe called "The Origin of Power Loom Weaving" published in 1828. It is hard reading but, as far as I can tell, because he took exception to English and Scottish yarn being sold to European finishers to manufacture, i.e. handloom weave it, as he felt that English weavers should have the benefit of the yarn, decided to try and solve the trouble with the large amounts of spun cotton and too few weavers to make the finished pieces. This was partly because it was quicker to produce the yarn as it was then made by a mechanical process powered either by water or steam rather than the days when the yarn was spun by one member of a family in cottage industry situation and woven by another member of the family, with the children taking part by carding etc. He decided to first of all bring weavers and potential weavers together into his factory where he was already spinning yarn in order to train up as many men as he could to the trade of cotton weaving. He also began, with the help of others, to invent various other machines to perform some of the preliminary processes, e.g. warping and dressing. Then he invented a way of taking up the finished material by winding it onto a beam by means of what he called a "lathe" but may not have been quite what we understand as a lathe today. This was somehow able to be done mechanically as the handloom weaver wove the material by hand. In other words, he could also operate the winding process at the same time. This improved the finished article. There is a lot about how he had to patent machines and processes and what he had to go through in order to do it and how he felt the need, with others, to protect the English trade and workers against the theft of industrial secrets and it is not at all easy to select the wood from the trees. However, his idea seems to have been to train up the handloom weavers to work with what he called the power looms which they should then take back into their homes to use there. Clearly these are not the later power looms as only part of the process was mechanised and seems to have depended upon the action of the man to work it rather than power from water or steam. I don't know if any of this explains what you have found happening in your locality. Most of this was going on in Stockport and the areas roundabout as William Radcliffe was based in Stockport while he was doing this but he was putting out yarn and warps to the cottages over the three counties that border onto the countryside around Stockport - Derbyshire, Cheshire and Lancashire. This was, in effect, a transitional phase between hand operated looms and the fully powered looms in factory situations. Audrey ==================================== WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message _____ Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=45083/*http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailb eta>

Thank you for this Audrey, A little bit 'late' for me this - my understanding of machinery of all kinds very sketchy and I was struggling with the idea of power looms in a private dwelling, even in an outhouse of some kind. However, this reply "that many very small places like farms had 3 or 4 looms and would use water power but created a small lodge to hold water until needed so that the flow would be even", received from someone with a good knowledge of the industrial history of this area, seems to tie in with the information you provided. I have got a couple more contacts to try and will see if they agree that this is possible for this area. If so it is the first time I have heard of it here, not being mentioned in any general history books about the area or those on industrial archaeology. Thanks again for your trouble, Barbara -----Original Message----- From: norman lee [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: 12 December 2006 23:44 To: Barbara; [email protected] Com Subject: Re: [OEL] Power looms? Dear Barbara I have a copy of a privately published book by William Radcliffe called "The Origin of Power Loom Weaving" published in 1828. It is hard reading but, as far as I can tell, because he took exception to English and Scottish yarn being sold to European finishers to manufacture, i.e. handloom weave it, as he felt that English weavers should have the benefit of the yarn, decided to try and solve the trouble with the large amounts of spun cotton and too few weavers to make the finished pieces. This was partly because it was quicker to produce the yarn as it was then made by a mechanical process powered either by water or steam rather than the days when the yarn was spun by one member of a family in cottage industry situation and woven by another member of the family, with the children taking part by carding etc. He decided to first of all bring weavers and potential weavers together into his factory where he was already spinning yarn in order to train up as many men as he could to the trade of cotton weaving. He also began, with the help of others, to invent various other machines to perform some of the preliminary processes, e.g. warping and dressing. Then he invented a way of taking up the finished material by winding it onto a beam by means of what he called a "lathe" but may not have been quite what we understand as a lathe today. This was somehow able to be done mechanically as the handloom weaver wove the material by hand. In other words, he could also operate the winding process at the same time. This improved the finished article. There is a lot about how he had to patent machines and processes and what he had to go through in order to do it and how he felt the need, with others, to protect the English trade and workers against the theft of industrial secrets and it is not at all easy to select the wood from the trees. However, his idea seems to have been to train up the handloom weavers to work with what he called the power looms which they should then take back into their homes to use there. Clearly these are not the later power looms as only part of the process was mechanised and seems to have depended upon the action of the man to work it rather than power from water or steam. I don't know if any of this explains what you have found happening in your locality. Most of this was going on in Stockport and the areas roundabout as William Radcliffe was based in Stockport while he was doing this but he was putting out yarn and warps to the cottages over the three counties that border onto the countryside around Stockport - Derbyshire, Cheshire and Lancashire. This was, in effect, a transitional phase between hand operated looms and the fully powered looms in factory situations. Audrey

Thanks for this Judith - The origin of the Irish (and maybe the Scots?) seems to be shrouded in mystery somewhat, but a Google search on Scotti was a little revealing, part of which I copied for the group. The subject has been researched by several and I may have given the wrong impression as to the use of SCOTTI which according to this web site - http://www.postroman.info/scotti.html - is: - "Classical writers used the term Scotti to describe Gaelic speakers from Ireland and western Scotland." Kind Regards Roy LD Cox Family Historian Member of SA&NHS Member No. 1066 (And all That!) Web Site: www.coxresearcher.com/index.htm I also use www.archivecdbooks.com and www.localhistory.co.uk/ambra for my research -----Original Message----- From: Judith Werner [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 11:11 PM To: ROY COX Subject: Re: [OEL] origin of saint's name It's okay on line, Roy. The original query was a little off-topic but the discussion has wandered in the right direction. Judith Salt Lake City, Utah, USA Administrator, OLD-ENGLISH | | As far as the name ELPHIN is concerned, the time scale was in St Patrick's era whereas the earliest instance of Scott I have is c.1124 with Uchtred filius Scot in Selkirk. | | Perhaps we might carry on this discussion outside of the group as it seems to be a little of topic now? or is it?

Our thanks to all who gave us their good wishes for our 56th anniversary .. Kinder Regards than usual June & Roy Cox......

Hello Roy I am interested in your comment that the Irish originated in Scotland. In researching the surname Scott we found it originated from the word Scotti about the 10th century which meant Irishman so it would seem some Scottish were immigrants from Ireland so did the name Elphin go the other way. regards Chris Bartlett -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Roy Sent: Sunday, 10 December 2006 2:44 a.m. To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [OEL] origin of saint's name My "Little" Booke Again! It doesn't appear that it was a Saint or is it? There is a place Elphin on the A835, in the north west of Scotland (Just an aside) St Patrick founded a cathedral near Elphin (Ireland), "By a river issuing from two fountains," in the 15th century, and placed over it St. Asicus, whom he created bishop, and who soon after filled it with monks. After many centuries many places became annexed to Elphin, which became one of the richest sees in Ireland. The see was united to Kilmore in 1841, under the provisions of the Church Temporalities Act, passed Aug. 1833. Looking at other possibilities, there is a surname ELPHNISTON(E) c.1250- from the lands of Elphinstone in Tranent (Midlothianshire) History comments that the (Irish) originated from Scotland; do we have a link here, perhaps the Irish town of Elphin was named after one such emigrant? What a lovely sunny day it is today, here in the south, to mark our 56 years of marriage - Whoopee! Kindest Regards to all subscribers and to say how pleasant it is to take part in these discussions - Roy LD Cox and June Mary my wife - -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of norman lee Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2006 1:01 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [OEL] origin of saint's name Does anyone know the origin of the saint's name to which Warrington Parish Church dedicated? It is St. Elphin. A local historian has suggested it could be a bad reading of Stephen but this would have been a very long time ago. Audrey ===================================== WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH ===================================== ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ===================================== WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH ===================================== ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.15/580 - Release Date: 8/12/2006 12:53 p.m. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.15/580 - Release Date: 8/12/2006 12:53 p.m.

well I'm interested though can't contribute Ros ----- Original Message ----- From: "ROY COX" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 10:46 PM Subject: Re: [OEL] origin of saint's name > Hello Chris - > > Apologies for any problems there may be with this as I am answering from > my web-mail at present. > > A very interesting observation by both of us it seems and I copy what I > have found about "SCOTTI" ..... > > "The foundation myths of Scotland state that the Scottish Gaels > originated from the Dal Riata tribe in Antrim, north-east Ireland. Around > AD 500, or so the story goes, Fergus Mor mac Eirc supposedly established a > new Dal Riata in Argyll because of dynastic competition at home (Foster, > 1996: 13). According to this view, they displaced a previous British or > Pictish community from Argyll - a process which eventually ended with the > takeover of the entire Pictish kingdom in the 9th century to create the > united kingdom of Alba that became Scotland." > > I have no source proof to back me up, as I am only repeating what must be > hearsay. > > It is significant that the word "SCOTTI" is not in my Scottish Dictionary > so one might suppose the word to be Irish? > > The name SCOT is in fact of Irish origin, not I think necessarily meaning > an Irishman though, but an Irishman with that name. I take this from the > OE for SCOTT which is stated as being the name given to a certain man of > Irish descent, as set out in Reany's dictionary of surnames. What > relationship between SCOTT & SCOTTI there is, can only be conjecture I > think? > > As far as the name ELPHIN is concerned, the time scale was in St > Patrick's era whereas the earliest instance of Scott I have is c.1124 with > Uchtred filius Scot in Selkirk. > > Perhaps we might carry on this discussion outside of the group as it > seems to be a little of topic now? or is it? > > > Chris Bartlett <[email protected]> wrote: > Hello Roy > > I am interested in your comment that the Irish originated in Scotland. In > researching the surname Scott we found it originated from the word Scotti > about the 10th century which meant Irishman so it would seem some Scottish > were immigrants from Ireland so did the name Elphin go the other way. > > regards Chris Bartlett > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Roy > Sent: Sunday, 10 December 2006 2:44 a.m. > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [OEL] origin of saint's name > > My "Little" Booke Again! > > It doesn't appear that it was a Saint or is it? > > There is a place Elphin on the A835, in the north west of Scotland (Just > an > aside) > > St Patrick founded a cathedral near Elphin (Ireland), "By a river issuing > from two fountains," in the 15th century, and placed over it St. Asicus, > whom he created bishop, and who soon after filled it with monks. > > After many centuries many places became annexed to Elphin, which became > one > of the richest sees in Ireland. > > The see was united to Kilmore in 1841, under the provisions of the Church > Temporalities Act, passed Aug. 1833. > > Looking at other possibilities, there is a surname ELPHNISTON(E) c.1250- > from the lands of Elphinstone in Tranent (Midlothianshire) > > History comments that the (Irish) originated from Scotland; do we have a > link here, perhaps the Irish town of Elphin was named after one such > emigrant? > > > What a lovely sunny day it is today, here in the south, to mark our 56 > years > of marriage - Whoopee! > > Kindest Regards to all subscribers and to say how pleasant it is to take > part in these discussions - Roy LD Cox and June Mary my wife - > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of norman lee > Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2006 1:01 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: [OEL] origin of saint's name > > Does anyone know the origin of the saint's name to which Warrington Parish > Church dedicated? It is St. Elphin. A local historian has suggested it > could > be a bad reading of Stephen but this would have been a very long time ago. > > Audrey > ===================================== > WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > ===================================== > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ===================================== > WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > ===================================== > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.15/580 - Release Date: 8/12/2006 > 12:53 p.m. > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.15/580 - Release Date: 8/12/2006 > 12:53 p.m. > > > > ==================================== > WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > Kind Regards > > Roy LD Cox > www.coxresearcher.com/index.htm > > > > ==================================== > WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Dear Barbara I have a copy of a privately published book by William Radcliffe called "The Origin of Power Loom Weaving" published in 1828. It is hard reading but, as far as I can tell, because he took exception to English and Scottish yarn being sold to European finishers to manufacture, i.e. handloom weave it, as he felt that English weavers should have the benefit of the yarn, decided to try and solve the trouble with the large amounts of spun cotton and too few weavers to make the finished pieces. This was partly because it was quicker to produce the yarn as it was then made by a mechanical process powered either by water or steam rather than the days when the yarn was spun by one member of a family in cottage industry situation and woven by another member of the family, with the children taking part by carding etc. He decided to first of all bring weavers and potential weavers together into his factory where he was already spinning yarn in order to train up as many men as he could to the trade of cotton weaving. He also began, with the help of others, to invent various other machines to perform some of the preliminary processes, e.g. warping and dressing. Then he invented a way of taking up the finished material by winding it onto a beam by means of what he called a "lathe" but may not have been quite what we understand as a lathe today. This was somehow able to be done mechanically as the handloom weaver wove the material by hand. In other words, he could also operate the winding process at the same time. This improved the finished article. There is a lot about how he had to patent machines and processes and what he had to go through in order to do it and how he felt the need, with others, to protect the English trade and workers against the theft of industrial secrets and it is not at all easy to select the wood from the trees. However, his idea seems to have been to train up the handloom weavers to work with what he called the power looms which they should then take back into their homes to use there. Clearly these are not the later power looms as only part of the process was mechanised and seems to have depended upon the action of the man to work it rather than power from water or steam. I don't know if any of this explains what you have found happening in your locality. Most of this was going on in Stockport and the areas roundabout as William Radcliffe was based in Stockport while he was doing this but he was putting out yarn and warps to the cottages over the three counties that border onto the countryside around Stockport - Derbyshire, Cheshire and Lancashire. This was, in effect, a transitional phase between hand operated looms and the fully powered looms in factory situations. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barbara" <[email protected]> To: "[email protected] Com" <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2006 8:11 PM Subject: [OEL] Power looms? This might be a long shot, but I wonder if anyone has come across anything similar to this before? I have been looking at estate rental ledgers for my home town, Great Harwood in Lancashire, and I have found something that puzzles me. The town relied heavily on handloom weaving until c. 1844 when the first power loom mill was built, but some of the entries for various farms have, for the same date in 1827, an entry stating that a certain sum paid was 'an allowance for power looms'. These farms, though scattered, were roughly in the same area. This has me totally stumped and I would be grateful for any ideas - if only where to look for answers. Barbara ==================================== WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello Chris - Apologies for any problems there may be with this as I am answering from my web-mail at present. A very interesting observation by both of us it seems and I copy what I have found about "SCOTTI" ..... "The foundation myths of Scotland state that the Scottish Gaels originated from the Dal Riata tribe in Antrim, north-east Ireland. Around AD 500, or so the story goes, Fergus Mor mac Eirc supposedly established a new Dal Riata in Argyll because of dynastic competition at home (Foster, 1996: 13). According to this view, they displaced a previous British or Pictish community from Argyll - a process which eventually ended with the takeover of the entire Pictish kingdom in the 9th century to create the united kingdom of Alba that became Scotland." I have no source proof to back me up, as I am only repeating what must be hearsay. It is significant that the word "SCOTTI" is not in my Scottish Dictionary so one might suppose the word to be Irish? The name SCOT is in fact of Irish origin, not I think necessarily meaning an Irishman though, but an Irishman with that name. I take this from the OE for SCOTT which is stated as being the name given to a certain man of Irish descent, as set out in Reany's dictionary of surnames. What relationship between SCOTT & SCOTTI there is, can only be conjecture I think? As far as the name ELPHIN is concerned, the time scale was in St Patrick's era whereas the earliest instance of Scott I have is c.1124 with Uchtred filius Scot in Selkirk. Perhaps we might carry on this discussion outside of the group as it seems to be a little of topic now? or is it? Chris Bartlett <[email protected]> wrote: Hello Roy I am interested in your comment that the Irish originated in Scotland. In researching the surname Scott we found it originated from the word Scotti about the 10th century which meant Irishman so it would seem some Scottish were immigrants from Ireland so did the name Elphin go the other way. regards Chris Bartlett -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Roy Sent: Sunday, 10 December 2006 2:44 a.m. To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [OEL] origin of saint's name My "Little" Booke Again! It doesn't appear that it was a Saint or is it? There is a place Elphin on the A835, in the north west of Scotland (Just an aside) St Patrick founded a cathedral near Elphin (Ireland), "By a river issuing from two fountains," in the 15th century, and placed over it St. Asicus, whom he created bishop, and who soon after filled it with monks. After many centuries many places became annexed to Elphin, which became one of the richest sees in Ireland. The see was united to Kilmore in 1841, under the provisions of the Church Temporalities Act, passed Aug. 1833. Looking at other possibilities, there is a surname ELPHNISTON(E) c.1250- from the lands of Elphinstone in Tranent (Midlothianshire) History comments that the (Irish) originated from Scotland; do we have a link here, perhaps the Irish town of Elphin was named after one such emigrant? What a lovely sunny day it is today, here in the south, to mark our 56 years of marriage - Whoopee! Kindest Regards to all subscribers and to say how pleasant it is to take part in these discussions - Roy LD Cox and June Mary my wife - -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of norman lee Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2006 1:01 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [OEL] origin of saint's name Does anyone know the origin of the saint's name to which Warrington Parish Church dedicated? It is St. Elphin. A local historian has suggested it could be a bad reading of Stephen but this would have been a very long time ago. Audrey ===================================== WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH ===================================== ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ===================================== WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH ===================================== ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.15/580 - Release Date: 8/12/2006 12:53 p.m. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.15/580 - Release Date: 8/12/2006 12:53 p.m. ==================================== WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message Kind Regards Roy LD Cox www.coxresearcher.com/index.htm

Thanks to everyone for their thoughts on this – one or two avenues to investigate have been suggested, notably the fact that this was a particularly bad time for the cottage industry with riots in this area just the year before. There are a couple of experts on the subject and I will attempt to contact them to see if they can shed any light. Thanks again, Barbara

No doubt someone will correct me but I believe that some weavers rented their looms rather than owning them. Who it was that hired them out, I'm not sure - possibly the large spinning mills who put out work to them. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barbara" <[email protected]> To: "[email protected] Com" <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2006 8:11 PM Subject: [OEL] Power looms? This might be a long shot, but I wonder if anyone has come across anything similar to this before? I have been looking at estate rental ledgers for my home town, Great Harwood in Lancashire, and I have found something that puzzles me. The town relied heavily on handloom weaving until c. 1844 when the first power loom mill was built, but some of the entries for various farms have, for the same date in 1827, an entry stating that a certain sum paid was 'an allowance for power looms'. These farms, though scattered, were roughly in the same area. This has me totally stumped and I would be grateful for any ideas - if only where to look for answers. Barbara ==================================== WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Barbara Could it be compensation for the switchover to power from hand, where this was to pieceworkers? Alternatively, an amount to purchase the new looms by the pieceworkers. Maybe they tested them out on the farms, before they started using them in the town factories. John ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barbara" <[email protected]> To: "[email protected] Com" <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2006 8:11 PM Subject: [OEL] Power looms? This might be a long shot, but I wonder if anyone has come across anything similar to this before? I have been looking at estate rental ledgers for my home town, Great Harwood in Lancashire, and I have found something that puzzles me. The town relied heavily on handloom weaving until c. 1844 when the first power loom mill was built, but some of the entries for various farms have, for the same date in 1827, an entry stating that a certain sum paid was 'an allowance for power looms'. These farms, though scattered, were roughly in the same area. This has me totally stumped and I would be grateful for any ideas - if only where to look for answers. Barbara ==================================== WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

This might be a long shot, but I wonder if anyone has come across anything similar to this before? I have been looking at estate rental ledgers for my home town, Great Harwood in Lancashire, and I have found something that puzzles me. The town relied heavily on handloom weaving until c. 1844 when the first power loom mill was built, but some of the entries for various farms have, for the same date in 1827, an entry stating that a certain sum paid was ‘an allowance for power looms’. These farms, though scattered, were roughly in the same area. This has me totally stumped and I would be grateful for any ideas – if only where to look for answers. Barbara

Church Titles to reply to the comments by Eve that minerals were taxed by the Lord of the Manor, yes this is often the case but this was not the case for the ancient parish of Stoke-upon-Trent. The Duke of Sutherland (a large land owner in the South of the city who also owned many coal mines)was in dispute for years at the early part of the 19th century regarding the sudden re-implementation of tithes which had been dormant for years. The new Patron of the living was after every penny he could to enable the huge ancient parish to be divided and as such provide an income for the incumbents of the new Rectories carved out of the old parish which in 1297 was the 3rd largest parish. There are hundreds of letters remaining in the county archives regarding this. Richard

There is some explanation of the name here:- http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05394b.htm It wasn't used as a persons name initially, it seems. Janet

My "Little" Booke Again! It doesn't appear that it was a Saint or is it? There is a place Elphin on the A835, in the north west of Scotland (Just an aside) St Patrick founded a cathedral near Elphin (Ireland), "By a river issuing from two fountains," in the 15th century, and placed over it St. Asicus, whom he created bishop, and who soon after filled it with monks. After many centuries many places became annexed to Elphin, which became one of the richest sees in Ireland. The see was united to Kilmore in 1841, under the provisions of the Church Temporalities Act, passed Aug. 1833. Looking at other possibilities, there is a surname ELPHNISTON(E) c.1250- from the lands of Elphinstone in Tranent (Midlothianshire) History comments that the (Irish) originated from Scotland; do we have a link here, perhaps the Irish town of Elphin was named after one such emigrant? What a lovely sunny day it is today, here in the south, to mark our 56 years of marriage - Whoopee! Kindest Regards to all subscribers and to say how pleasant it is to take part in these discussions - Roy LD Cox and June Mary my wife - -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of norman lee Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2006 1:01 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [OEL] origin of saint's name Does anyone know the origin of the saint's name to which Warrington Parish Church dedicated? It is St. Elphin. A local historian has suggested it could be a bad reading of Stephen but this would have been a very long time ago. Audrey ===================================== WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH ===================================== ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Does anyone know the origin of the saint's name to which Warrington Parish Church dedicated? It is St. Elphin. A local historian has suggested it could be a bad reading of Stephen but this would have been a very long time ago. Audrey